I need your old fucntioning stock coils

[TitaniumTT]

If anyone here has been following my dyno adventures, you'll probably recall me saying that Dave and I made huge gains in power with small changes to AF's in the 10-5-11.5 range as we crept up to .8L or 11.7-11.9. We believe this is due to the ignition system being sub-par in terms of spark current and energy. I'm running 4 LS1 coils (D580's) and for a long time they were considered an upgrade from stock and on par with the stock+CDI box setup. Unfortunately I have yet to find any back to back dyno graphs or true data concerning these or other coils. I'm frankly tired of internet legend and ass dyno's and want to put an end to this once and for all. Here's my plan

Over the winter I'm changing a few things on the setup including injectors and coils. Which ever coil I decide on will be the one that we tune with until the L's and turbo's are dialed in, most likely a new Bosch coil. Then the fun begins and the bullshit ends.

Over the winter I'll be modd'ing my harness to accept a DTM connector for the ignition setup so we can swap coils and plugs in a matter of minutes while on the dyno. I'll also be building my own spark plug wires and they will all be of the same wire so no one can butt in and say, dude, your wires sucked, that's why X coil didn't do as well, that's what I use and they're AWESOME! There will be none of that at the end of this test. I thought about contacting someone with an occiliscope, but I think real workd results will work better.

I plan on testing -
Stock 2nd gen coils
Stock 3rd gen coils
Stock RX8 Coils
D580 coils
D510 coils
and a set of top secret Bosch coils

My car will be the test mule and the testing will be done at my expense. I will NOT be giving any road/ass dyno feedback. The only things that I will be able to provide are back to back dyno sheets with in a few minutes of each other, comments on idle quality and starting ease. We'll probably do two runs on each coil just to make sure the results aren't some type of fluke. In other words, actual numbers to despense with internet lore.

So, here's what I have/what I need. I have a set of stock 2nd coils, the D580's, and I'll be fronting the coin for the Bosch coils. What I need from you guys are your old stock 3rd gen coils, old stock RX8 coils, and if anyone is feeling generous, OR if you're planning on upgrading to the D585 coils (LS2 Yukon Coils - I've been told by a few people that the D510C coils - latest gen LS7 engine - outperform the D585's) perhaps you can front for the D510C's and I can test those for us. Of course you'll get them back after the test and I can throw in the connector housings, pins and seals that you'll need to do the wiring for fronting the cash for these coils, probably ~$20 worth of electrical cripe. No chinese knockoffs though, Tyler They can be purchased from RockAuto (returnable withen 30 days) for ~$68 each or AC-Direct (don't know thier return policy) for $62 I think...

So, who's feeling generous for the greater good of the community?

[RotaryProphet]

Fantastic idea, and the sort of testing I love to see. I'd love to see an MSD wasted spark leading setup tested, also, in a couple of different configurations (both a pair of single coils, and a stock 2nd gen leading coil, which is the setup I've used to good results.).

Are you going to be playing with the AF ratios to each setup's advantage, or testing across a flat ratio? I'm not sure which would give a better view of the coil's spark energy, but if it were me, I'd test at some flat AF ratio, and then tune for best power, and record both runs.

Looking forward to seeing the results!

[Force13b]

Brian PM me your address i'll send you my stock FD coils

Hey maybe i'll just send you my nock off crap and you can test that too

[TitaniumTT]

Thanks! Yeah, I'm kinda tired of the, I swapped these coils in and they feel great! Cool, what was the ACTUAL gain?

The plan is to run the Bosch coils and tune with the new injectors to .8-.82 L and leave the fuel curve alone and also turn off the Wide-Band control. The only adjustments that will be made will be to the Dwell settings becuase I think it's unfair to run say the D510C at the retardedly low dwell time that the Bosch coils need. So before I go to the dyno I'll contsruct the proper dwell tables and setup information so that we can change back and forth between wasted and non-wasted spark.

If someone has a reliable CDI box that they want tested, I can test that as well. I however don't want to take the huge coin hit in buying a box and then reselling it at half the price. So if you're interested in having that tested and have a spare box kicking around, I can do that as well. As for the difference between single double fire and double singe fire coils, I don't believe it would make a substantial difference in a CDI envirornment.

We're now up to 14 additional dyno runs for testing purposes Dave's gonna love this

I'm interested/excited to see the results as well. People on LS1Tech were picking up huge gains going from the D580's to the D585's in back to back dyno's. As I said before, the D510C's were documented to produce more energy. I haven't seen the documentation but someone I know and trust has so if anyone is thinking about the D585 upgrade, consider the D510C instead (and then buy them and send them to me). Same basic price.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by Force13b

Brian PM me your address i'll send you my stock FD coils

Hey maybe i'll just send you my nock off crap and you can test that too

Will do Tyler and thanks much.

FWIW, I've been doing as much research as possible trying to get actual numbers on the D585's and the D510C's. I have yet to find any, but what I have found is a bunch of LSX guys whining about the MSD coils dying quickly. They're supposed to be a direct drop in replacement so the dwell time should've been taken into account. Just something to think about my friend.

[Force13b]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Will do Tyler and thanks much.

FWIW, I've been doing as much research as possible trying to get actual numbers on the D585's and the D510C's. I have yet to find any, but what I have found is a bunch of LSX guys whining about the MSD coils dying quickly. They're supposed to be a direct drop in replacement so the dwell time should've been taken into account. Just something to think about my friend.

If the MSD's die i'll just go to 4 D595's (or whatever is the top of the line then). With as much driving as i do in the 7 i doubt they'll die for a while.

[RotaryProphet]

I'll be happy to lend you an MSD 6al box I have sitting around.

[TitaniumTT]

Sounds great to me. Thanks much!

Now all we need is some RX8 coils and a set of D510C's

[05rex8]

LS2 coils will outperform stock rx8 coils in every way btw.

I use them in my turbo 8. I had to have the dwell adjusted to 5ms for the LS2's since I'm flowing well over 300g/sec MAF readings. If the dwell was left alone, I would get massive misfires.

The stock rx8 coils burn out rather quickly. A lot of people change them every 20K miles just to be safe....and that's for NA 8's.

Sounds like a fun project you got going though!

[TitaniumTT]

Thanks man, it will for sure be interesting to see the results.

For a long time the RX8 coils were actually recommended for some N/A rotaries and to me for my project becuase of thier short dwell time. Rotaries only allow for a short dwell time. 5ms is too long for the D580's, you're at something like 90% duty on them in the higher revs on a 13B, factor in the renni's higher redline and it gets even worse. I'll have to do the math when I have the time, someone else can if they'd like, it's like this - 9000rpm = how many spark events and how much time between spark events, don't forget that the coil is discharging for a set amount of time as well, and how much time before the next spark event. Divide that by your dwell and you have your ignition duty cycle. I can tell you that at the higher RPM's 5ms is WAY overworking D580. Yeah it's giving out great spark at that dwell time, but it's being overworked. Now maybe the D585's can handle it, but for how long?

[Kentetsu]

Outstanding project, which I will be watching very closely. A couple of years ago, I did some work with GSL-SEAddict over on "the other" forum, trying to work out a better system for the FBs.

He designed the "transistor trick" box, which translated the signal from the 1st gen ignitor into something useable by the 2nd gen ignitor, which then triggered a 2nd gen leading coil pack for direct fire.

The difference in power was amazing, but the coil packs had a tendency to burn up on us after running them for a bit (sometimes a long time, sometimes a day or two). But alas, we never did get any dyno results.

If someone could come up with something that gave that kind of results along with dependability, I'd be all over it. I have long been a believer that there is an amazing amount of power hidden in our ignition systems.

Best of luck with your project!

.

[C. Ludwig]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Thanks man, it will for sure be interesting to see the results.

For a long time the RX8 coils were actually recommended for some N/A rotaries and to me for my project becuase of thier short dwell time. Rotaries only allow for a short dwell time. 5ms is too long for the D580's, you're at something like 90% duty on them in the higher revs on a 13B, factor in the renni's higher redline and it gets even worse. I'll have to do the math when I have the time, someone else can if they'd like, it's like this - 9000rpm = how many spark events and how much time between spark events, don't forget that the coil is discharging for a set amount of time as well, and how much time before the next spark event. Divide that by your dwell and you have your ignition duty cycle. I can tell you that at the higher RPM's 5ms is WAY overworking D580. Yeah it's giving out great spark at that dwell time, but it's being overworked. Now maybe the D585's can handle it, but for how long?

5ms is a 75% duty at 9000. That's assuming no time spent in discharge. In practice the duty versus available charge time would be higher. On the other hand, very few rotaries are living at or seeing 9k.

On the other hand yet again, this is where the Mercury coils shine. Designed for a 2-stroke engine they'll achieve 90+% saturation in around 3ms. If you want a hot inductive coil well suited for a rotary application this is where you should be looking.

[TitaniumTT]

I agree with you, but we need to include the discharge into the calculations which has a big impact on the real world duty cylces.

While some engine aren't living there, if there are rotaries up there, that's where they're going to need the best spark, boosted engines especially.

If you have a QuickSilver part number, I'll look it up, get the apps, and head down to the marina and talk to the head techs and see if they have had any issues with those particular coils.

Also, do you know if they will saturate to the point of auto-discharge? I was talking with WE3 about these, if the tech's like them and they won't auto-discharge, I'll test 'em out too, but this is about the last of them I think we're up to
2nd gen
2nd gen +MSD6
3rd gen
RX8
Quicksilver
D580
D510 or D585
and the Bosch
That's 14 extra dyno pulls and alot of time during the day to swap all these fuckers out. 10-15 minutes each is 1.5 - 2 hrs just swapping coils around..

[C. Ludwig]

The Mercury coils don't auto-ignite. Every time I've looked to source them from a marine dealer I've seen the "boat" markup. 034 Motorsport is a good reliable place to get them from for a not to out of this world price.

[TitaniumTT]

Yeah the marine world mark-up is outrageous. I have wholesale accts setup though so if you can give me an application or an OEM partnumber, wait.... are you sending me the coils?