TitaniumTT's I hope I make it to DGRR '09 Build

[TitaniumTT]

Thanks.

Honestly though..... we weren't looking for .85L We were tuning for a little richer, not much but a little. There is a HUGE jump in power on my car from .75 - .8L, much smoother torque curve, virtually no misfires, my engine seems to LOVE good clean AFR's. 12 seems to be the magic number but I'm hesitant to go there until I get this fuel issue solved. I like the safety margin even if it costs me 50hp+. Last time we started with the car running ~.75 and lower. Cleaned her up to .8 and gained 50-60 hp. I think I'm going to put some LS2 Truck coils in over the winter. THey have something like 250% of the millijoules that the LS1 coils have.

It's not the tank. The tank that's in there is the cleanest S4/5 tank that I have ever seen, and I've cleaned it by hand myself on two seperate occasions and both times, nothing has come out on a clean papertowel. I don't think it's station related either because I've been tanking up at all different stations, although all of them have been Mobils or Exxons. Disconnecting the fuel fill is a PITA too, I know, I've removed it for cleaning in the past. If anything I'll get a locking filler and I'm going to look into some security camera's because it's getting a little too cold to sleep in the shop

Still running the V-mount, although it's really more of an H-mount I guess. I think the ductin is the key though. I suck up bugs that get trapped in the seem between the core and the frameing/ducting. Ambient temps were around 60-65* The intercooler is a brand that I will NOT specify publically. While it's a good intercooler, I fricken HATE the company that built it. They screwed me so badly, I refuse to do anymore business with them or give them any free advertising. I will say that Griffin and this other co claim the same effeicency with thier cores. I went with the other co for time and cost. They said they could deliver the custom intercooler in a few days, but when it arrived (and I had it 2-day aired for something ridiculous like $85) the end tanks were wrong. So when I called them to tell them they made a mistake, they wouldn't own up to it. It was a battle to get them to take it back and build me the proper one. Then I had to pay for shipping to get it out to them, and pay for shipping to get the correct one sent back to me. So in total I paid close to $200 for shipping for a $450 intercooler and had to wait a few weeks.

When my Griffin rad showed up, it had the wrong size outlet, 1 & 3/4" as opposed to 1 & 1/2. When I called them, they were all set to take it back, pay for the shipping and expedite a new one to me. They were so helpful on a rad that they would have a VERY hard time reselling (where as the intercooler was basically a generic front mount setup) that I decided to see if I could stretch a hose over the outlet. I could and kept the rad to sort of help them out. Honestly, since I can't completely remove the name from the intercooler (which I specifically asked them NOT to spraypaint on) the last thing that I'll probable do is replace the intercooler that I have with one grom Griffin, or just buy a Garret or Spearco core and fab my own tanks. But if you're looking for a good intercooler, I'd go strait to Griffin.

The AIT's are ridiculous though. One log showed a 120* jump in charge temps with a 1.7* jump in AIT's... lower boost level. The other interesting thing about the charge temps..... apparently we're close but not to the end of the turbo's effeicency. I was told that 300* is about where you want to stop.

[FC3S Murray]

AWESOME buddy! I really wish you could find this fuel issue! Man it is like a "dick tease".

You need to post some vids in the car and someone on the road with you flying by.

Almost there bro. Great job!!

[EJayCe996]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Still running the V-mount, although it's really more of an H-mount I guess. I think the ductin is the key though. I suck up bugs that get trapped in the seem between the core and the frameing/ducting. Ambient temps were around 60-65* The intercooler is a brand that I will NOT specify publically. While it's a good intercooler, I fricken HATE the company that built it. They screwed me so badly, I refuse to do anymore business with them or give them any free advertising. I will say that Griffin and this other co claim the same effeicency with thier cores. I went with the other co for time and cost. They said they could deliver the custom intercooler in a few days, but when it arrived (and I had it 2-day aired for something ridiculous like $85) the end tanks were wrong. So when I called them to tell them they made a mistake, they wouldn't own up to it. It was a battle to get them to take it back and build me the proper one. Then I had to pay for shipping to get it out to them, and pay for shipping to get the correct one sent back to me. So in total I paid close to $200 for shipping for a $450 intercooler and had to wait a few weeks.

When my Griffin rad showed up, it had the wrong size outlet, 1 & 3/4" as opposed to 1 & 1/2. When I called them, they were all set to take it back, pay for the shipping and expedite a new one to me. They were so helpful on a rad that they would have a VERY hard time reselling (where as the intercooler was basically a generic front mount setup) that I decided to see if I could stretch a hose over the outlet. I could and kept the rad to sort of help them out. Honestly, since I can't completely remove the name from the intercooler (which I specifically asked them NOT to spraypaint on) the last thing that I'll probable do is replace the intercooler that I have with one grom Griffin, or just buy a Garret or Spearco core and fab my own tanks. But if you're looking for a good intercooler, I'd go strait to Griffin.

That's good to know because they are on my "parts list" for my rad and IC when I finally get around to my V/H-mount setup when I upgrade to a bigger turbo.

[Turbo II Rotor]

Wow, 400 eh? Congrats on another awesome achievement. I can't believe your fuel contamination issue is still ongoing. If it isn't some obscure rubber seal breaking down or your neighbor I'd say electrolysis in the fuel system maybe? I'd wonder if the ethanol in the fuel is allowing the fuel to become conductive and eating the insides of your fuel rails or something.

Got a graph for that number? I wanna see how low they come on.

Btw, the Tuesday night meet is dying down due to the cold so maybe we could find a weekend meet that works for both of us. If not there is always DGRR '10, which I'll definitely be attending.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by FC3S Murray

AWESOME buddy! I really wish you could find this fuel issue! Man it is like a "dick tease".

I think I may have found the issue tonight.......... here's what I did

Pulled the pump and hooked up a wire to both the ground on the hanger and the hot on the lid. Checked Bat voltage - 12.12V. Turned the pump on and probed those two wires so I could get a reading of what the pump was seeing with it in fuel and running - 11.12V. Not bad but still something not 100%. I've got a 10GA wire going from the bat to a 20A breaker like 6" away, and then the same 10GA running to the relay on the shock tower, and then 10GA running to the connector which I replaced with a weatherpack. So there is stock wiring from the connector to the pump. Not much but it's still some.

Next I hooked up an Ammeter and ran the pump. 12.51A. This is not good. It should be around 8-9A. This is interesting. I jumped the ground directly to the battery and got the exact same A reading. OK, so it ain't my wiring although there is a loss somewhere, most likely just the resistance of the connectors, breakers, relays ect ect.

The sock looks a little meh so I pulled the sock to eliminate that as a source of vac and got a reading of 12.46A. OK, so a questionable sock only adds a slight amount of resistance. This is interesting. Questionable meaning you pull the think out of the tank and fuel is still being held in said sock.

OK, well, maybe that filter really is clogged. But what if it isn't? That's a TON of A's for a pump to suck down. Alright, we need to know without a doubt that this filter is fucking me. So what do I do you ask - go on, ask. Alright alright, I'll tell you. I have a spare 250psi sender that I use for my comp tests. I dug through my binS worth of fittings and found a -6 male to -6 male with an 1/8"npt port, an 1/8" to -4 fitting. A -4 female to -4 female hose, a -4 to 1/8"FNPT and put my sender on the end of that. Then I got a coupler and spliced this hodge podge contraption between the hardline and the filter BEFORE the filter. The sender happens to be the same as my Oil Pressure sender ('cuz I get like 125 psi >3500) and turned the pump on. Read 43.2psi at the regulator. A little high. Even more interesting is that it read 42.6 - yes Forty-two and 6/10 psi BEFORE the filter. Interesting. There is a negative pressure drop across the filter. This could be because of a few things. The Fuel PSI sender is a 0-100 psi unit so the resolution on the 250 psi unit isn't nearly as accurate becuase they are using the same 5v. There is also some sender accuracy. I don't know what the autometer (Delco) stuff is but it's OEM so it should be pretty damn accurate. So....... interestingly enough it appears that the filters are only partly to blame. I think the Cosmo pump that I've been using just isn't up to snuff for the pressures that I'm asking of it. I'm going to borrow my buddies Walbro tomorrow and toss it in and do the same tests. I know that the Walbro 392 HP draws just ~8A at ~57G/hr @ 12v. At the highest pressure I'm asking for it draws ~<9A and flows about 52G/hr @ 12V. At 13.5V it should flow ~62 Gal/hr. Assuming 100% duty cycle I need 55G/h. So the Walbro 392hp will actually definately work for me.

The Cosmo pump has been tested to put out 66 G/hr @ 43psi HOWEVER, it was never really designed to put out the kinds of pressures that I'm asking for. I wonder if the pump isn't just falling FLAT on it's face on the higher levels of PSI. Also, this is with a filter with 150 miles on it. I know for a FACT that I have had outright clogged filters and socks from the epoxy coated tank. I wonder if all the shit that went through there didn't fuck up the pump itself. Also, lets not forget that the pressure that I was getting before the filter was never recorded until now. It's possible that the line pressure got into the 80's. The pump way overworked got hot and FUBAR'ed itself. All sorts of shit could've happened but the Cosmo pump that I have, just isn't up to snuff right now. That's also evident by changing the filter yesterday, making one pull and on the second it just went to shit. We spent probably 3 hours on the dyno making pull after pull after pull. It's entirely possible that the pump "heatsoaked" if you will.

I'm rambling, I'm gonna finish my drink and take a shower.

Fucking cars...........................................

Originally Posted by FC3S Murray

You need to post some vids in the car and someone on the road with you flying by.

Almost there bro. Great job!!

Yesh, yeah we do. Hopefully I'll have a little time to build a mount for an in car camera. That would be awesome. But I definately need to get a couple fly bys. A good buddy of mine has a slightly tweaked MS6. We were pulling onto the highway and he heard me bust loose some tires so he punched it. We got up to about 120. His sister was in my car and we were following. I laughed and said, you see all that black smoke coming from your brothers car? He's got his foot through the floor and I'm @ 1/4 throttle The car pulls like a frieght train. Need som vids of fun shit for sure

[TitaniumTT]

Oh, last two things to test, although I'm only going to do one is to drive the girl around and see if the psi holds steady before and after the filter. There is basically little flow with the engine off. As you run her hard, you're asking for more pressure AND more flow, now alot of it isn't making it to the reg. So after the Walbro goes in tomorrow and passes my series of A tests, I'll go for a rip around the neighborhood and see what the pressures are like while under full boost. If they remain pretty consistant, I'm racing Sunday.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by EJayCe996

That's good to know because they are on my "parts list" for my rad and IC when I finally get around to my V/H-mount setup when I upgrade to a bigger turbo.

I would buy everything that I could from Griffin, I love those guys. I don't know if they make oilcoolers though. The next car I build - FD - will have as many heat exchangers from Griffin as possible. I do love my Mocal oil coolers though. I was seeing 139* oil temps on the drive out yesterday. Highway, about 55* ambient.

Originally Posted by Turbo II Rotor

Wow, 400 eh? Congrats on another awesome achievement. I can't believe your fuel contamination issue is still ongoing. If it isn't some obscure rubber seal breaking down or your neighbor I'd say electrolysis in the fuel system maybe? I'd wonder if the ethanol in the fuel is allowing the fuel to become conductive and eating the insides of your fuel rails or something.

It's driving me fucking crazy too. Although I think at this point the contamination is gone but the damage is done and the pump is now fucked. THe intervals between cloggings are getting mush shorter. Interestingly enough I was on the phone with Aeromotive today and telling them about the black shit in the filter. He says, it could be the pump getting hot or sluggish and the armatures grinding crap off the magnets. I've seen that but you'd have a whole different set of problems if that was the case. Awesome, I totally discounted that comment until I A tested the Cosmo pump.

Originally Posted by Turbo II Rotor

Got a graph for that number? I wanna see how low they come on.

Sorry Scott, I got nothing. We all just sorted stared milling around all pissed off. Still running NS too but the boost comes on as soon as you hit the gas. Dave was punching her @ 3500rpm & ~0 boost and by 4300 we were seeing about 13.5psi..... non sequential. Sequential should melt the tires off. I HAVE to head back. Poor Dave has been wanting to play with the sequentials since he saw the software but we can never get there.

What's even funnier, is in late June when we cooked engine #3 (actually CLOGGED filter as in held fuel) I said jokingly that we were going to break records, finish the sequentials, but it would be so late in the year that I would drive her home and pull her apart for the winter. Guess what's going to happen. I can't get back to Dave until the 2nd week in November and I always take her off the road Turkey Day w/e or before if there's going to be snow.

Originally Posted by Turbo II Rotor

Btw, the Tuesday night meet is dying down due to the cold so maybe we could find a weekend meet that works for both of us. If not there is always DGRR '10, which I'll definitely be attending.

You bunch of pussies I have no weekends until probably 11/15... sorry man. Maybe 11/8. DGRR is a definate though, without a doubt. Hopefully have 3-4 cars there if all goes according to plan, which it never does. Are you planning on doing the same thing you did last year or head down with us on Thursday?

Are there any other Bear Mt or OCC meets left in Nov?

[NoDOHC]

Just a question: Are you running a returnless fuel system, because if not, the fuel flow rate is fixed by the pump, it either goes in the injectors or through the FPR, but it always flows the same from the pump at a given fuel pressure. With the engine off, the pump should see load equivalent to 0 psi boost. Under boost, the pump has to make 13.75 psi more fuel pressure.

I think that you are on to something, but maybe not exactly as you described it above. I think that your fuel pump is overheating, which is decreasing the available fuel throughput of the pump and is starving your engine for fuel. You can boost for short spurts just fine, but the pump can't handle the 57 psi for very long without drawing more current.

One more thing, it is likely a multi-stage impeller-type pump, which means that under boost (when the pressure is higher) the flow will actually decrease due to limitations of that design, without factoring in the change in coil resistance due to temperature. (Look at turbo-map speed lines for an idea of the curve shape).

You should have a fuel pressure correction map in the Motec... If not, you can set up an inverse trim to the 0-5V input. Maybe that will avoid going lean in the future.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

Just a question: Are you running a returnless fuel system, because if not, the fuel flow rate is fixed by the pump, it either goes in the injectors or through the FPR, but it always flows the same from the pump at a given fuel pressure. With the engine off, the pump should see load equivalent to 0 psi boost. Under boost, the pump has to make 13.75 psi more fuel pressure.

Nope, it's a return system. -6 Stainless return hardline. The all the pulls up till the last three showed about 55 psi of rail pressure. The filter that plugged last week, after we replaced it I drove around for 600 miles without an issue at all. I'm starting to think that the contamination is the pump disintegrating.

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

I think that you are on to something, but maybe not exactly as you described it above. I think that your fuel pump is overheating, which is decreasing the available fuel throughput of the pump and is starving your engine for fuel. You can boost for short spurts just fine, but the pump can't handle the 57 psi for very long without drawing more current.

I agreee. Which is why on my 20 minutes communtes there is no issue or when I drive 150 miles to Daves and cruise down the highway at ~36psi of rail pressure and very little flow, there is no problem. But pull after pull after pull just over works the pump.

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

One more thing, it is likely a multi-stage impeller-type pump, which means that under boost (when the pressure is higher) the flow will actually decrease due to limitations of that design, without factoring in the change in coil resistance due to temperature. (Look at turbo-map speed lines for an idea of the curve shape).

Not sure of the type of pump that it is. Same as all the others I'd imagine.

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

You should have a fuel pressure correction map in the Motec... If not, you can set up an inverse trim to the 0-5V input. Maybe that will avoid going lean in the future.

I do, I've looked at it, and I've already started working on some sort of correction MAP. The only problem is, and admitatdy I haven't spent a great deal of time on it, if we see down to 31 ish psi, there isn't a problem, when under decel. So I'm still pondering how to input the table to account for the needed fluctuations in boost. It'll come to me one night at 3 in the morning when I can't sleep.

[NoDOHC]

It is an easy map.

According to our buddy Bernoulli, Fluid flowing through an orifice (fuel delivered) is proportional to the square root of the differential pressure (should be 43 psi for you). This is fixed as the fuel pressure is biased to the manifold pressure, thus the pressure drop across the injector is always constant.

Thus, you would flow 1.41 Times as much fuel at 43 psi as you would at 21.5 psi.

The map should be very easy to plot.

EDIT:

Whoops! I forgot about a factor that will make the map extremely difficult, you are not measuring differential pressure, you are measuring gauge pressure and absolute pressure in the manifold. This math will be a little more complicated.

If you have a barometric pressure input to the Motec, you can configure a Math channel (I think that a Motec will do this). Set the math channel to Differential_Pressure = Fuel pressure + Barometric pressure - (Manifold pressure (in kPA) * 0.145). If you don't have barometric pressure, call it 14.7 psi and you will be close enough.

Now you can use the above relationship to compute your fueling correction parameters and avoid engine damage (we would all be very sad to hear that you damaged the engine while you were checking the local dyno against Dave's).

Another edit due to random thought while at work:

If your fuel pump would ever run out of capacity, it would be at maximum RPM and maximum boost. I think I explained this earlier, I just got to thinking that my previous post was slightly confusing. If the fuel pressure is dropping before the filter, the fuel pump has to be the weak link. A good way to test this would be to pressurize the FPR with a bicycle pump or something to 15 psi and let the fuel pump run for a while. If the pressure starts to drop relative to the bike pump (should run 43 psi above pressure from bike pump consistently). This means that your Fuel pump can not make that much pressure, even at 0 flow (the FPR will eventually shut the fuel flow though it off completely as the fuel pressure is dropping). If the fuel pump can maintain the pressure, The next calculation that you need to make is the maximum flow that you achieved through your injectors (which should be straight forward if you know the injector size).

Next, you will need to get a graduated cylinder and take off the return line from the fuel rail to the fuel tank and feed it into the cylinder. Keeping the bicycle pump at full boost (~15 psi) measure the flow rate that the pump is able to make. Time how long it takes the pump to fill the graduated cylinder 3/4 full. This could take a minute or so, depending on the size of your graduated cylinder, Several liters would be better (I use a 5-gallon pump calibrators bucket).

Armed with this information, you will know conclusively if your pump can indeed supply enough fuel to the engine.

If I were you, I would run the pump for a couple minutes and then retry the flow test (you will need two ball valves to change the FPR return location quickly).

[vex]

B- could you shoot some close ups of your ducting work/radiator mounts and post them up? I'm planning on beginning that taken care of on mine sooner rather than later.

[TitaniumTT]

Sorry man, only pics I got I already posted. Tell ya what, bring the rig up here and I'll build it for ya after 1/1/10

Ask any questions that you want though. I LOVE the setup but honestly I went too big. My coolant temps never get above 173* on the highway and on my last trip to Dave my oil temps were @ 139*!!! That's honestly too cold. I'm thinking about building some muffs but when I sit in traffic, the oil temps get up there, and by up there I mean 210*. The only time my coolant temps ever got about 187* was sitting on the rollers for the emmisions test.... then both water and coolant hit something like 265* and chunked the rear/rear side seal

[Slammedred7]

Man....good thread. Looks really sharp!

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by Slammedred7

Man....good thread. Looks really sharp!

Thanks man.

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

EDIT:

That was a good edit, worthy of it's own post because I almost didn't see it. The one thing that you forgot to mention is A draw from the pump as well. This is what I've been doing the last few nights is checking flow, A draw, and pressure before and after the filter.

So far I have concluded that my Cosmo pump has puked. It's drawing 12.5A @12v and 15 A @ 13.5V. The fucker is gone. In fact, the dicoloration that I'm seeing in the filter is most likely chunks of magnet getting spit out - per a theory from the Aeromotive tech that I spoke too who has actually seen that happen. My theory is this, I know I have had epoxy clogged filters in the past, you could peel it off the filter. So, I believe that the filter brought up the delta acorss itself so high that the pump just overworked itself. This is what cost engine #3. Prior to going to the dyno I had been running a Bosch 044 but MY GAWD is that fucker loud. The night before I put the Cosmo pump back in (pressure had been fine with the Bosch pump all the way to redline running pig rich) and drove out to Dave. On the drive out the Fuel Pressure sender puked. First pull she went way lean and warped 2 Apex seals. On the drive home I had to stop a few times to add fuel to the entire map to stay on the safe side of stoich. This also happened a few times on some longer road trips. I thought the filter was just clogging, in fact, I think the pump was just getting hotter and hotter and hotter (scary thought actually)

So got home from fragging engine #3 and in fact the filter was clogged with epoxy. Cleaned that thing out and continued to run the same pump ASSuming it was the filter Fastforward to this weeks adventures and towards the end of the day the "filter clogged" Changed it out (let the pump relax for ~45 minutes) and made one pull and alls well, go for the money pull (she did do 402.77) and the "filter clogged" again. Without changing the filter I'm testing the delta and it's actually ~.3psi less BEFORE the filter. Here's why I think that is. At the reg I'm using a 100psi sender and 10" of -3 line. Before the filter I'm using a 250psi sender and 4' of -4 line (all I had) So given the extra length to travel, and the lower resolution of the 250psi sender, I'm saying they are damn close and the delta is virtually unmeasurable as it should be with a filter with 150 miles and 2 dyno pulls.

Think about what we're asking the pump to do on the dyno though, run 56 psi basically all day long. Now in speaking with Dave he has run the Cosmo pump all the way to 500rwhp. Not the greatest but it does. We're also using the same pressures as well. The only 2 Cosmo pumps that he's seen fail were sugared. It's a good pump, but I don't think I'll be buying a new one just becuase it broke once (although the circumstances sucked) but I don't like replacing broken parts with the same thing.

So I've tested the Cosmo pump and it failed.
I tested my Bosch pump and it works, but loud as fuck
I have my buddies Walbro GSS341 which flows enough that I am testing tonight. If it's considerably quiter than the Bosch and holds pressure and flow, I'll run that until I can find my ultimate pump. I'm thinking it's going to the Apexi BNR33 or is it 32? Dunno but something like that. I want... need a quite pump. Bosch is too damn loud. Flows like a bejuzus but loud as hell.

So, off to install a Walbro now

[EJayCe996]

Originally Posted by Slammedred7

Man....good thread. Looks really sharp!

GTFO, Eric

LOL you're gonna have me praying my modified supra pump never has issues although i haven't heard much about anyone having problems with em.