Plain Jane OEM nothing to see here rebuild

[RETed]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

I'm having overheating issues with the engine.

Is this something that just started to happen?
Was the system working fine prior to this?
Any changes to the cooling system?

Here is what I've noticed so far with normal driving (not driving it hard as I'm still breaking in the engine). Temps will keeping rising and rising and when they start to pass 220 I'll pull the car over and either let it idle with the efan running and hood up or turn off the engine but let the efan run and every so often turn the engine on to cycle what is in the radiator back into the engine.

Just to eliminate the obvious...
Is the fan pulling air in the correct direction?

N/A hood was being used. While I've been driving to avoid boost as much as possible. The Hallman MBC is set to zero boost, but I need to watch how I'm driving. The OEM wastegate simply can't fully bypass. I thought that perhaps because the MBC was not allowing the engine to be in vacuum that it was contributing to heat. By that I mean it may be purging as much of the pressure as it can, it's also trying to keep pressure at zero. That perhaps rather than having vacuum having zero pressure is still pressurized compared to vacuum and thus creates heat. That theory was partially blown out of the water, I put a turbo hood on it yesterday hoping to see lower temps...and did not. (Before it is said, I'm using N/A hood until I get paint work done on the turbo hood and other parts. I keep thinking paint is going to happen and it hasn't yet.)

Just a side note...
Any type of boost control is going to end up as a bleed-off system
This means that it's next to impossible to get the boost to "zero".
You can only adjust boost down to the base spring pressure - which is most cases is going to be about 7psi - 10psi on an FC turbo with an open exhaust.

Other than obvious things where can I start looking for a cure?

1. Flushing radiator and cooling system. Should I flush the heater core seperately?
2. Testing the radiator cap. What pressure cap should a S5 13B T have?
3. Possibly a clogged oil cooler?
4. I have air pump removed and so far only a single belt alt pulley. I had a dual belt pulley with my last alt but usually only used one because of belt slipping. Never had issues with heating.

Check to see if the radiator is OK:
Get engine warmed up and then check the entire area of the radiator core to see if heat is even; if there are localized spots that are cooler, you have a bad radiator (core).
Stock rated radiator cap is for about 0.9 bar or about 13psi.
I doubt the problem is with the oil system or the oil cooler - do you have an oil temp or oil pressure gauge?

Any reason you're not running double belts?
You really should be running two.
At low RPM's (under 3kRPM), the belt should not be slipping.
If the belt is slipping, it'll be obvious - you can see the pulley slip, and / or hear it slip.
You might also see a lot of excess black dust around the area of the pulleys where the belt is disintegrating.


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Originally Posted by RETed

Is this something that just started to happen?
Was the system working fine prior to this?
Any changes to the cooling system?



Just to eliminate the obvious...
Is the fan pulling air in the correct direction?



Just a side note...
Any type of boost control is going to end up as a bleed-off system
This means that it's next to impossible to get the boost to "zero".
You can only adjust boost down to the base spring pressure - which is most cases is going to be about 7psi - 10psi on an FC turbo with an open exhaust.




Check to see if the radiator is OK:
Get engine warmed up and then check the entire area of the radiator core to see if heat is even; if there are localized spots that are cooler, you have a bad radiator (core).
Stock rated radiator cap is for about 0.9 bar or about 13psi.
I doubt the problem is with the oil system or the oil cooler - do you have an oil temp or oil pressure gauge?

Any reason you're not running double belts?
You really should be running two.
At low RPM's (under 3kRPM), the belt should not be slipping.
If the belt is slipping, it'll be obvious - you can see the pulley slip, and / or hear it slip.
You might also see a lot of excess black dust around the area of the pulleys where the belt is disintegrating.


-Ted

The heating issue has been going on since rebuild was completed. I've noticed it more because I have been driving it further distances...before the car would drive to get errands. Maybe 10 min drive tops with intervals as long as half hour between the next destination. I was having issues with the efan blowing fuses so I thought temps were related to the fan going out on me. Efan wiring has been corrected, it is working as it should..and pulling air through the radiator.

I've had it parked for about a month now. Not related to heat issues, but I sent my injectors off to be cleaned and have in general been tired of working on it....so it sat.

I'm going to try a yoohoo belt and see what that does for temps. I'm not sure if I have slipping or not. The engine does make a noise it did not previously...but doesn't really sound like belt slipping. I previously had an FD alt and dual pulley. I could never get a matched pair that actually matched...I know slipping sound and this isn't quite it. It's almost like a chirping noise...which could be mild slipping and might only effect things once it's NOT idling.

I do not see it slipping, or have any dust, etc.

Reason I don't have dual belts is because I just got the 140 amp S5 alt and have not sourced one yet. I know the obvious places to get them, BUT I'm wanting to get an overdrive pulley. Yes, overdrive. The modded alt only sees 14v when rpms are above 1k or so. I'd like to find a dual pulley a little bit smaller than stock. Just haven't had time to research and find one.

One factor I had not considered before my post. I had the pulleys powder coated. I would not be at all surprised if that is a factor in slipping. I have a yoohoo belt ordered from Napa. I have read the arguments for and against. My plan is to see if single belt is a factor with my problem. If I have to I'll get an OEM sized dual pulley, but like I said I'd prefer overdrive so charging at idle. I'll report back findings.

I'll also be buying a temp gun to test my radiator...see if I have even temps.

For the oil cooler and such. I do have both aftermarket temp and pressure gauges. The pressure gauge I bought used and I think they gave me the wrong sender. According to tech support the gauge is registering that it is not plugged into the sender...but it is. The craptastic OEM pressure gauge reads about normal and the same as pre-rebuild. Oil temps seem normal. They rise slower than water. I'm not sure numbers off the top of my head, but it never struck me as out of line. Next time I'm driving it I'll get some numbers for both.

[reddozen]

lol... nice engine... looks very familiar...

[JustJeff]

Reporting back:

Got a dual belt pulley on over the weekend and took the car for a drive tonight. Obviously it's much cooler tonight than it was Memorial weekend (100°). It took much much longer to heat up and was cooling down with the efan blowing at lights. BUT temps did get up to just below 220°.

Oil temps seemed about normal at 200° and pressure seemed normal at between like 30psi and 60psi.

1. I've checked my radiator hoses they aren't collapsing.
2. I did what I could to test for cold spots on the radiator but did not have time to take the undertray off and feel the front of the radiator. I simply stuck my hand between fan blades and felt with my fingers...all the spots I could check seemed the same temp.
3. The top passenger corner of the fan shroud does not sit snuggly at all. I can pull it off the radiator by about 1/3 of an inch. I'll resecure that, but I wouldn't think it would have that much of an effect.
4. I'll go through and put some foam around oil cooler, condensor and radiator...just to make sure.

One thing I'm curious about is my oil cooler. It seems like I have a pinhole somewhere in the oil cooler. I keep finding oil pooling up on the bottom of the radiator and in other strange places around the oil cooler. I had a failure on one of my oil cooler hoses on one of my first drives after rebuild. It created a fountain of oil. I had thought that oil on the bottom of the radiator was simply gravity from me not being able to get the oil cleaned up off of everything (ie: fan blades, fan shroud, etc). Reason I bring this up is I'm curious if I do have a pinhole and I am loosing hot oil..and it happens to be on the radiator fins...seems like that could cause the radiator to not cool as well. Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

[GySgtFrank]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

One thing I'm curious about is my oil cooler. It seems like I have a pinhole somewhere in the oil cooler. I keep finding oil pooling up on the bottom of the radiator and in other strange places around the oil cooler. I had a failure on one of my oil cooler hoses on one of my first drives after rebuild. It created a fountain of oil. I had thought that oil on the bottom of the radiator was simply gravity from me not being able to get the oil cleaned up off of everything (ie: fan blades, fan shroud, etc). Reason I bring this up is I'm curious if I do have a pinhole and I am loosing hot oil..and it happens to be on the radiator fins...seems like that could cause the radiator to not cool as well. Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

I had a similar problem with oil on the bottom of the radiator. It turned out to be that the crush washers weren't sealing. It only showed up when the oil pressure came up. The washers are supposed to be replaced any time you crack the hose loose.

[JustJeff]

Originally Posted by GySgtFrank

I had a similar problem with oil on the bottom of the radiator. It turned out to be that the crush washers weren't sealing. It only showed up when the oil pressure came up. The washers are supposed to be replaced any time you crack the hose loose.

Thanks for the heads up. I did not replace them when I replaced the leaking hose. I don't remember if I replaced them when I did my rebuild. New ones sounds like a good starting point.

[Pete_89T2]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

Thanks for the heads up. I did not replace them when I replaced the leaking hose. I don't remember if I replaced them when I did my rebuild. New ones sounds like a good starting point.

You'll also want to be careful not to overtighten those banjo bolts on the cooler. If you do, the result is often a hairline crack in the oil cooler where the theaded hole is machined, which causes a leak.

[JustJeff]

Need some electrical advice.

Is it possible for my efan to be pulling air on low, but pushing air on high? It's a 3 wire taurus efan. I have not been using high setting until this past weekend. I noticed it tonight because I was testing my fans. I have a spare and was swapping the wiring on the car to test to see if my spare one also caused the my 40amp reseting circuit breaker to trip. It was not so I switched back to my mounted fan. I had the car idling and efan on highbwith a manual switch. I wanted to check my battery with my multitester to see what high was doing to my battery. I had air blowing out from the bumper grill onto my shins and feet. With the engine still running I swapped the wiring to the low and the fan direction changed directions.

I've been told this is not possible...but I saw it with my own eyes....felt it with my own shins.

[GySgtFrank]

If the fan is having to be dragged to a stop and reverse directions that would explain blowing a 40A circuit breaker. Check to see if in fact the fan blade is reversing direction from low to high. if so does the spare fan do this too? If it does, there is something going on with the way it's wired. If it doesn't there is something internal to the fan that is truly screwy.

[Pete_89T2]

Any DC motor only needs 2 teminals to run - a positive (+) and negitive (-). Reverse those two and the direction the motor spins changes. Based on what you're seeing, once verifed as Gunny suggests, your wiring must be switching polarity somehow.

Do you have a electrical schematic diagram of the Taurus fan motor assembly or can you draw one up from what you've got? Any relays and resistors in there? When it was installed in a Taurus, was the fan motor grounded to the car's body/engine, or was it a floating ground due to it being mounted on rubber isolators/plastic? We'll need this type of info to steer you in the right direction.

[JustJeff]

Originally Posted by GySgtFrank

If the fan is having to be dragged to a stop and reverse directions that would explain blowing a 40A circuit breaker. Check to see if in fact the fan blade is reversing direction from low to high. if so does the spare fan do this too? If it does, there is something going on with the way it's wired. If it doesn't there is something internal to the fan that is truly screwy.

I don't have both high and low speeds setup on individual switches. I have both high and low with spade terminals and I switch them out. Was going to keep it that way temporarily...till I work out my issues. That being said, it wasn't switching from low to high. I manually/physically switch them. It's on high and while driving that on high the circuit breaker trips. I haven't been able to recreate the problem while idling and working on the car. BUT once it starts doing it (while driving) it will continue to do it while idling. I simply have not been able to get it to start doing it while idling.

Originally Posted by Pete_89T2

Any DC motor only needs 2 teminals to run - a positive (+) and negitive (-). Reverse those two and the direction the motor spins changes. Based on what you're seeing, once verifed as Gunny suggests, your wiring must be switching polarity somehow.

Do you have a electrical schematic diagram of the Taurus fan motor assembly or can you draw one up from what you've got? Any relays and resistors in there? When it was installed in a Taurus, was the fan motor grounded to the car's body/engine, or was it a floating ground due to it being mounted on rubber isolators/plastic? We'll need this type of info to steer you in the right direction.

Excellent point on the diagram. I do have one buried in this thread. I gotta head to work (half day on Sat. cause I took time off this week), but I'll post up the diagram once I get to work.

It can only be two things. Either my wiring is wrong ie: did not follow diagram correctly or the fan is faulty. My plan after work is to dig into my wiring.

It's just very odd that on one speed it spins correctly and on the other it doesn't. I'd think it would have to be consistent direction on both.

[JustJeff]

Here is the diagram



I have not added the idle up yet. It can only be one of two things. Either my wiring isn't following the diagram, or the fan is faulty.

[GySgtFrank]

(re: tripping 40A breaker) It sounds like a faulty fan to me. When under load something is overheating (board warpage?) and doesn't quit until it cools down enough. Just my WAG. I had a Ford ignition module do this to me once and it drove me crazy until I finally found it. It would test fine when cooled off. Wiring? on fan reversal.

[Pete_89T2]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

Here is the diagram



I have not added the idle up yet. It can only be one of two things. Either my wiring isn't following the diagram, or the fan is faulty.

Maybe I'm missing something from an earlier post. Your schematic diagram shows a 2 wire fan motor (just + and - terminals), but you also said it was a 3 wire Taurus fan. Where is the 3rd wire in this diagram, and is this motor grounded or does it have a floating ground?

[JustJeff]

Originally Posted by Pete_89T2

Maybe I'm missing something from an earlier post. Your schematic diagram shows a 2 wire fan motor (just + and - terminals), but you also said it was a 3 wire Taurus fan. Where is the 3rd wire in this diagram, and is this motor grounded or does it have a floating ground?

Sounds like I might have assumed too much. I assumed difference between 2 wire and 3 wire Taurus fans was that 2 wire was 1 speed and 3 wire was 2 speed. I also assumed that for my 3 wire fan that I had one common ground and 2 different +. + for low and + for high. I assumed that the diagram was for either high or low, but not for both. I physically swap wires to go from high to low. I never have all 3 wires connected at one time. I also assumed the ground was common (to engine, chasis, etc), but I don't really understand floating grounds. I've done some light reading and so far it escapes me. My best understanding of floating grounds are car speakers. Each speaker is not grounded to the chasis. They are grounded via the amp.

It's been a while since the car has been sitting and I wired in the fan and relay. I'll let you know where the fan is grounded a little later today/tonight...after I dig into the wiring.