Diary of a Madman; TitaniumTT's see you @ DGRRXI RE-REbuild

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by helghast7

well im not looking for any HP increase for the ignition system, just something more reliable then stock FD coils

Coils are definately reliable. Only problem is where I have them mounted. No AC or PS can be used, I've got them on a plate that mounts exactely where those guys once lived. You could relocate them though I suppose.

Originally Posted by MaczPayne

I really worry about your health, Brian!

Yeah, well I just got word from Alex that if his car is painted and mechanically sound, he'll drive it down to DGRRX..... so that leaves 92 days (I think) to finish all the fab, all the paint, rebuild the LS, and assemble the car. Top that off with everything that's happening with my 7, well, yeah, I'm a little worried too at this point Johnson

[jtbshaw]

Brian,

If you haven't purchased the new S5 tank, there's another custom mod that you can do. I modified an aluminum 15 gallon drag race cell, with sump, to fit in my son's TII stock location. Still retains the stock fuel level sender and fill/vent location. I can still pull up to the pump and fill up as I normally would. I coated the bottom with a textured flat black and it is almost completely camo'd....with the exception of seeing the -AN fitting for my -10 and -8 lines. I am running an external A1000 pump so I ditched all the other. If you are interested, I can send you some info and pics.

Todd B.

[TitaniumTT]

Yeah Todd, I'd love to see what you did! I looked and looked and couldn't find anything that would fit, most of what I found was plastic though, so there was no chance in it working. Whatever it is though, I need to figure it out PDQ, as I'm having hold ups with other things and haven't even touched the car yet when I was hoping to be spending an hour or so a night working on her..... 92 days?

[jtbshaw]

Here you go my friend:

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...-1&showValue=1

That's the cell I used.

Here's what I did:

• Cut the mounting tabs off.
• Removed the filler cap assembly-then Tig welded a plate to cover the opening.
• Cut off the right roll over vent tube fitting-plug welded that.
• Traced out the stock TII fuel pump holder/pickup tube mounting plate in the left corner-then cut that out...which removed the other vent tube fitting.
• Drilled holes for the stock unit to mount in there.
• Over on the right side, I took a hole saw (I can't remember the correct size but one was around 2" and the other was around 3/4") and cut two holes...one for the filler, and one for the factory vent tube there-then welded in the correct size tubing which I also bead rolled.
• Lastly, I welded two 1" square pieces of aluminum across the top as a spacer (because this cell was right at one inch shorter than the stock tank).

I also had to cut off one of my fuel outlets and replace with a -10 AN bung, because this cell comes with both outlets -8. I'm running a -10 supply with a -8 return. Once everything was welded and cooled down, I applied commercial grade rubber strips to the 1" square spacers, bolted the stock fuel pickup assembly down using self tapping zinc coated screw (removed the TII pump, but left the gauge sending unit...it's almost a perfect fit), painted the bottom crinkle flat black, and mounted it using the stock TII straps. Everything hookups stock and I can even use the vent tubes for the charcoal canister if I want to.

The only thing that you can see is my red/blue anadoized AN fittings. I even used the black braided fuel lines to further camo the setup. Mounted the pump in the spare tire well and ran it to my Mallory 4309 regulator inside the engine bay.

I don't have pictures on the PC. They are still on the digi cam. I'll upload them soon and shoot you over some pics if ya want. Does all that make sense?

Todd B.

[Force13b]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Yeah, total dissasemble and reassemble in 94 days..... Like Dave said, I'm a sick individual.

The LSX coild should be useable with the PFC as they have thier own built in ignitors. We'll see though, I may not get any HP increase in which case I'll be selling my LS1 setup

You can you LSX coils for a PFC but you're only going to get about 1/2 of the power out of them. The stock FD ignitor uses a falling edge signal from the ECU to trigger the coils, just like the signal that the LS coil needs. But because the PFC only drives the stock coils at 2.5 or so MS, you couldn't get anywhere near the full capability of the LS coils which can be driven at 5 MS. There's nowhere in the PowerFC to alter the charge time either...so you're stuck with low output.



Brian i just ordered a set of MSD Blaster coils 8245 they are just like the ls truck coils but more power.

[TitaniumTT]

Todd, you are a life saver and a curse at the same time That's AWESOME!

Everything made perfect sense, I love it..... however.... you're giving me idea's that I don't need

Now I'm thinking about buying that cell, doing everything that you did PLUS, cutting a piece out of the top to gain alot of access inside the thing and building an intank swirl tank. Something that I've always thought every turbo rotary owner should have.

My thoughts are to cut the top out and build a swirl tank, something on the order of a full gallon, just becuase, use the stock drop in supra TT pump that I have, TOTAL overkill but I own it and the stock fuel level sender. With the top cut out build a cup ala factory style that the pump will sit in. Retain the stock feed return lines as well as the sender.

The pump will pump fuel out of the Denso pump, and back into the cell where a line will feed directly into the swirl tank. Weld two -6AN bungs on either side as opposed to a bulkhead fitting, unless you think I've overkilling overkill already and plumb them into the swirl tank which will be welded in place. Run the overflow from the swirl tank parrellel with the feed line so it returns to the cup ala factory style.

-10 outlet on the swirl tank back through two welded -10 fittings (as opposed to a bulkhead fitting) to the outside of the tank where I can run my Bosch 044 pump. The return from the regulator will be run in parrellel with the feed and again through welded fittings on the side of the tank, through the tank to the swirl pot.

The end result will be just as kick ass as yours in that I can pull up to a gas station and fill up like any normal person which was my entire reason for NOT going with the fuel cell MONTHS ago.

One question for you though, how is your tank vented? Right now I converted the check valve and ran that to a sintered filter that I mounted directly above the filler cap. I was having problems with me cap not venting the pressure or vacuum that was being created. I ended up just doing what we always do in the marine world, I vented the bitch to atmosphere. I think I'll prob do that again, but run an anti-siphon loop (something overlooked in the marine world) and a roll-over check valve. So that if I DO fill the tank to the brim on a cold night, and let it sit on a hot day, the fuel will close off the vent valve and just build a bit of pressure until the cap releases some of it, and I don't have to worry about fuel spilling out of te vent line if I top her off and thrash on her immediately.

Anything else to consider? I would LOVE to see some pics. You set a high standard so i would love to see what you've got. Love the idea Todd, thanks much...... I think

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by Force13b

You can you LSX coils for a PFC but you're only going to get about 1/2 of the power out of them. The stock FD ignitor uses a falling edge signal from the ECU to trigger the coils, just like the signal that the LS coil needs. But because the PFC only drives the stock coils at 2.5 or so MS, you couldn't get anywhere near the full capability of the LS coils which can be driven at 5 MS. There's nowhere in the PowerFC to alter the charge time either...so you're stuck with low output.



Brian i just ordered a set of MSD Blaster coils 8245 they are just like the ls truck coils but more power.

Huh, I didn't know that about the PFC - lame. However, that's sorta the problem that I'm having with the LS1 coils that I have. The problem with the rotary is the incredibly short charge time that's allowed between spark events. I sat down with my engineering buddy/MoTeC guru and we came up with a dwell table that allows basically the most charge time, and it's not all that suitable for the LS1 coils. Becuase of the rev's the charge time is dropped to (I THINK) 3-4ms in the high load/high RPM sites. Again, NOT getting full charge time. We just had a chat and he rec'd some coils out of an LS7 (I've got the Delco number written down) that can fire happily ALLLLLLLLL day long @ 2ms charge and produce the same mJ and up to 20% more than the LS1 coil @ 5ms. And they bolt in..... sorta.

So my plan is to hit the dyno again in April, Dave and I will tune the car with the new injectors, new coils. Then swap coils and make another pull. Same dwell table, same conditions and see if there is a drop in power from the LS7 to the LS1 coils.

Then I'll swap in the LS1 specific table dwell table and make another run. Side by side comparisions and we'll know for sure if the LS1 coil is suitable or not when given the full charge time allowed by the rotaries "timing."

Again, this is on the MoTeC with retarded amounts of adjustability so I'll be able to get the most out of the coils.....(I can even bump the dwell time when the boost comes on although right now it's just basic rpm vs dwell) just for fun if we remember though, we'll do a pull with the LS1 coils @ 2.5ms and the LS7 coils @ 2.5 ms (if they don't auto-discharge at that length) and see where we land. Ahhhhh, the beauty of dyno's..... I need to make a list.

End result will be dyno proven power gains from coil to coil at full allowed charge time and whether or not the LS1 coil is really suitable for a rotary. I tend to think, based on what Dave and I found on the Dyno, that the spark is a little weak, as you're pointing out Tyler, becusae we can only dwell the eff'er for 3-4 ms.

Tyler, just as an aside, when I first started this pj, I was warned AGAINST those coils by my MoTeC guru. He had a few engines pop on the engine dyno becusae of them. Now they may have changed some, and I know a few guys use them, but I would think twice about them. I would go with something else. I'm curious what the difference in mJ output to charge time is with those vs a stocker Denso D5whatever the LS1 is. Do you know? Are those the auto Multiple Spark they toyed around with years ago?

[Force13b]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Huh, I didn't know that about the PFC - lame. However, that's sorta the problem that I'm having with the LS1 coils that I have. The problem with the rotary is the incredibly short charge time that's allowed between spark events. I sat down with my engineering buddy/MoTeC guru and we came up with a dwell table that allows basically the most charge time, and it's not all that suitable for the LS1 coils. Becuase of the rev's the charge time is dropped to (I THINK) 3-4ms in the high load/high RPM sites. Again, NOT getting full charge time. We just had a chat and he rec'd some coils out of an LS7 (I've got the Delco number written down) that can fire happily ALLLLLLLLL day long @ 2ms charge and produce the same mJ and up to 20% more than the LS1 coil @ 5ms. And they bolt in..... sorta.

So my plan is to hit the dyno again in April, Dave and I will tune the car with the new injectors, new coils. Then swap coils and make another pull. Same dwell table, same conditions and see if there is a drop in power from the LS7 to the LS1 coils.

Then I'll swap in the LS1 specific table dwell table and make another run. Side by side comparisions and we'll know for sure if the LS1 coil is suitable or not when given the full charge time allowed by the rotaries "timing."

Again, this is on the MoTeC with retarded amounts of adjustability so I'll be able to get the most out of the coils.....(I can even bump the dwell time when the boost comes on although right now it's just basic rpm vs dwell) just for fun if we remember though, we'll do a pull with the LS1 coils @ 2.5ms and the LS7 coils @ 2.5 ms (if they don't auto-discharge at that length) and see where we land. Ahhhhh, the beauty of dyno's..... I need to make a list.

End result will be dyno proven power gains from coil to coil at full allowed charge time and whether or not the LS1 coil is really suitable for a rotary. I tend to think, based on what Dave and I found on the Dyno, that the spark is a little weak, as you're pointing out Tyler, becusae we can only dwell the eff'er for 3-4 ms.

Tyler, just as an aside, when I first started this pj, I was warned AGAINST those coils by my MoTeC guru. He had a few engines pop on the engine dyno becusae of them. Now they may have changed some, and I know a few guys use them, but I would think twice about them. I would go with something else. I'm curious what the difference in mJ output to charge time is with those vs a stocker Denso D5whatever the LS1 is. Do you know? Are those the auto Multiple Spark they toyed around with years ago?

I'm currently running the yukon/escalade coils but i got them off ebay and like most ebay shit 1 of them is crapping out, i've already fould 1 plug in a few 1k miles and i'm getting some break up underload.

I bought a coil setup off someone on the forum. MSD primary and yukon/escalde coils for secondary. I haven't ready anything about the msd's causing people to pop motors how would a coil cause that? Now you got me all parinoid

I was told the yukon/escalade coil was the 1 to get so i started there. I haven't heard anything bad about the MSD. I have talked to a couple guys running e85 and using the MSD coils and say they work great.

Only specs i have on the MSD coils

[jtbshaw]

No need for a swirl tank. I will be premixing with this TII, just as I have with all my other rotaries (22). With the A1000 and the return setup, there's plenty of mixing constantly going on when that big a$$ pump is running. The A1000 will not work, however, for your EFI setup, I don't believe. Unregulated, it will flow at 45psi, but once you add the drain of boost and RPMs, you won't have adequate flow pressure. You need to source a different pump.

Now, you do have the option of running an intank pump since you would install the factory mount back in there with my setup. Depending on your placement, you may have to modify the inside access hole for the cell. Plus, you would lose the benfit of having the sump of the cell. Just tossing out more ideas.

About the coils, I would second the MSDs, Brian. Well, that is unless you could find someone selling some left over LX92 Crane coils.

[TitaniumTT]

Here's what I've found in a TON of research today on coils, I keep coming back to the Delco D585 - the Yukon LS2 coils WITH the heatsink. If it doesn't have the heat sink it's the D514A and should be tossed because of dwell time/saturation/auto-release crap. The other option is the D510C from the latest gen LS7 engines. I'm waiting on clarification on differences between the D510C and the D585 before I make an order.

Here's what I found.
If it ain't Delco/Denso, it's crap knockoffs - garbage.
The LSX guys don't like the MSD coils. They have longevity problems with them. They MAY be overdwelling them though, because they can. Afterall, MSD is short for My Spark Died. My guy was running 1000+hp methanol rotaries and it was the Multiple Spark that killed it. Swapped to a standard D580 (LS1 coil) and the problem was gone. Why, I dunno, just passing on information. Most of the dyno queens around here don't like them either, Dave hates them.

The FI LSX guys are using the D585 and making HUGE power with them.
My Motec guy just engine dyno'ed something like 850BHP on a frankenstiened N/A LSX motor using the D510C's. Those are the ones he rec'd to me before I told him about the D585's. He had indicated that the D510C's are a little more effiecient. I gave him some numbers on the D585's, and he's going to compare them to what he knows about the D510C's and we'll make a decision on what is the best coil to use. Anything above these coils and you're into CDI territory and that's something completely different..... and that I'm ot going to go through becuase of my harness. Honestly I wold like to see 0 gain on the dyno switching coils. If I pick up 20ft/lbs of torque, I'll be doing an M&W on the FD.

Some guy over on LS1Tech took his LS1 F-body to the dyno, ran it with LS1 coils, while the car was strapped down swapped to some D585 Coils and used LS7 wires and picked up 9hp and 18 ft/lbs That's pretty impressive from a coil on an N/A engine.

[djmtsu]

Dammit, you guys have given me the bug to do something.

I am looking at getting new engine management, cooling, maybe an FMIC and doing some spot painting on the 'bad' parts for now.

Not trying to hijack, but you guys are smarter than I.

[TitaniumTT]

Todd, I think you missunderstood what I meant - I'll be running a surge tank. Basically a reserve fuel source contained in a container that is always full. I've run my car on the track in n/a form and in long sweeping lefthanders, the fuel would slosh away from the pump. As soon as the pump goes dry, pressure goes to 0 PDQ. The theory behind the surge tank is to keep the fuel contained so that it won't slosh away. The surge tank feeds directly to a larger pressure pump so that if the intank pump goes dry for a second, there is still a reserve of fuel in the surge tank to feed the larger pump. The intank pump and the return lines are fed into the surge tank to keep it as full as possible for as long as possible, and then the overflow from the surge tank is plumbed back into the fuel tank.

Here's a pic as provided by MoTeC.. well they had one
here's a few that I found
http://sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm
http://www.ratdat.com/?p=168
showing the basica plumbing of it all. I actually built a surge tank that mounted to my rear strut bar. But quickly realized that it ws a plumbing NIGHTMARE and to top it off the noise from an external pump in the car would've SUCKED.

As for the pump..... I have a Bosch 044 pump, that that thing is LOUD. If I mount it in the tank and isolate it well, it MAY be liveable. I dunno, who makes the quitest most reliable external pump?

[TitaniumTT]

Hmmmmmmmm, maybe the thing to do is weld a surge tank to the inside top of the tank so I can use a drop in In-Tank pump, like my supra pump, as opposed to an external Bosch pump. Ala ATL's black Box...... Bosch pumps are LOUD! Todd, what have you done!!!

Scott, do you have you're setup running yet? I wanna hear these pumps of yours and see if it was the metal to metal mounting on mine or what.

[Force13b]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Here's what I've found in a TON of research today on coils, I keep coming back to the Delco D585 - the Yukon LS2 coils WITH the heatsink. If it doesn't have the heat sink it's the D514A and should be tossed because of dwell time/saturation/auto-release crap. The other option is the D510C from the latest gen LS7 engines. I'm waiting on clarification on differences between the D510C and the D585 before I make an order.

Here's what I found.
If it ain't Delco/Denso, it's crap knockoffs - garbage.
The LSX guys don't like the MSD coils. They have longevity problems with them. They MAY be overdwelling them though, because they can. Afterall, MSD is short for My Spark Died. My guy was running 1000+hp methanol rotaries and it was the Multiple Spark that killed it. Swapped to a standard D580 (LS1 coil) and the problem was gone. Why, I dunno, just passing on information. Most of the dyno queens around here don't like them either, Dave hates them.

The FI LSX guys are using the D585 and making HUGE power with them.
My Motec guy just engine dyno'ed something like 850BHP on a frankenstiened N/A LSX motor using the D510C's. Those are the ones he rec'd to me before I told him about the D585's. He had indicated that the D510C's are a little more effiecient. I gave him some numbers on the D585's, and he's going to compare them to what he knows about the D510C's and we'll make a decision on what is the best coil to use. Anything above these coils and you're into CDI territory and that's something completely different..... and that I'm ot going to go through becuase of my harness. Honestly I wold like to see 0 gain on the dyno switching coils. If I pick up 20ft/lbs of torque, I'll be doing an M&W on the FD.

Some guy over on LS1Tech took his LS1 F-body to the dyno, ran it with LS1 coils, while the car was strapped down swapped to some D585 Coils and used LS7 wires and picked up 9hp and 18 ft/lbs That's pretty impressive from a coil on an N/A engine.

I'm currently running 4 D585 w/ heat sink denso coils and i have now fouled 2 plugs in less than 2k miles on my rear trailing plug. I did get them off ebay so...

My new setup will be 2 D585 coils for trailing and 2 8247 MSD coils (i put the wrong part number down before th 8245's takes a different 4pin connector then the D585's i have now)

One of my friends is running the exact same setup but with D580 at 23psi with 20% meth without a hickup, well he did blow his motor but it wasn't the coils fault.

[TitaniumTT]

What are you running for wires, and plugs in the Trailing? What's your timing and A/F's @ while cruising and full load? Have you measured resistance on the wire? Dwell time?

The D580 is exactely what I have, except no chinese crap. Do they say Denso on them? Becuase I've seen Denso coils come out of a box not saying Denso on them, and there are a few co's out there making knock-offs and I KNOW they don't make the same spark.