Rebuild/Upgrade progress and Qs thread

[Shadow24v]

Ok, brief overview - 87 FC3S4 N/A coupe. bought cheap but have a massive smoke issue (narrowed it down somewhat, oil consumption VERY high, smoke is less on cold start and starts billowing massively once warmed up) runs sorta ok with good compression

The plan/goals are:
1) rebuild the N/A motor
2) do SOME kind of PnP for increased power from the 6-port (need LOTS of advice here )
3) add a mild turbo and MS-II v3.0 for some more power, probably around 250-275 hp

I DEFINITELY need some advice on what kind of porting template i should be looking at for this motor. I still haven't figured out what the different porting names mean (aka bridgeport, street port etc) and have NO idea what affect they have on RPM, power and driveability. I really want to do a PnP to the motor during the rebuild as it is an ideal time to do so. Also I'd like to retain the 6-port configuration even when i add the turbo.

Secondly, I am not sure what sort of turbo I'd need to attain my goals on the N/A ported motor. I can easily source a small mitsubishi TE04H or Garret T03 turbo from the Turbo Dodge community I am already in if either of these will work

I will have more questions as i review Atkin's rebuild DVD and so on

[djmtsu]

Good luck on the project.

For a PnP, you only have one option, a Megasquirt, and that is hard to come by since Zeal Engineering makes about 1 every decade or so.

Both of those turbos are too small for a rotary. You need at least a T04 with a decent side turbine (.80 or higher).

Have fun.

[C. Ludwig]

Originally Posted by djmtsu

For a PnP, you only have one option, a Megasquirt

This is just not true. Haltech has patch harnesses for the S4 and S5. Banzai makes a patch loom to adapt the Apexi PFC to the S4 and S5. The Rtek is as PnP as it gets.

[djmtsu]

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig

This is just not true. Haltech has patch harnesses for the S4 and S5. Banzai makes a patch loom to adapt the Apexi PFC to the S4 and S5. The Rtek is as PnP as it gets.

But most people who ask questions like the OP did are not looking to spend more on engine management that they do on a car. So the MS is about the cheapest PnP that will work for what he had in mind. The Rtek has limitations, and for what he is/was doing (6 port NA), he would need the 2.0 which is as much as a used E6K/X.

I am all about the Banzai PFC kit, and a Haltech, but like I said, based on the info he gave, a custom MS was the best bet.

PS- I do not want this thread to turn into a EMS thread!!!

[Shadow24v]

Originally Posted by djmtsu

But most people who ask questions like the OP did are not looking to spend more on engine management that they do on a car. So the MS is about the cheapest PnP that will work for what he had in mind. The Rtek has limitations, and for what he is/was doing (6 port NA), he would need the 2.0 which is as much as a used E6K/X.

I am all about the Banzai PFC kit, and a Haltech, but like I said, based on the info he gave, a custom MS was the best bet.

PS- I do not want this thread to turn into a EMS thread!!!

thanks you, thats essentially what im shooting for since im on a fairly tight budget.

i do have more questions though

1) on the rebuild, im looking at doing a hybrid: s5 rotors and intake on a mostly S4 keg, are there going to be issues during the rebuild with this plan? (i know s5 rotors require s5 c-weights)

2) does anyone have any opinions on some of the rebuild DVDs out there or know where i can find more information on the rebuild? (i have the basic idea, but i want more info)

3) Clutch/flywheel - since i will have the engine out, a clutch replacement/upgrade seems logical. with an eventual mild turbo planned (probably no more than 350hp) is there a stock engagement-like clutch that can handle that power? and at what cost?

4) Exhaust - While i can't afford the ridiculously expensive exhaust systems available now, has anyone had any success making their own header/exhaust? I'd like to have a header and exhaust on while N/A (turbo is going to take a while to plan and build) but don't have $1300 for an exhaust system. Any input on this would be great

[RETed]

Originally Posted by Shadow24v

Secondly, I am not sure what sort of turbo I'd need to attain my goals on the N/A ported motor. I can easily source a small mitsubishi TE04H or Garret T03 turbo from the Turbo Dodge community I am already in if either of these will work

Nope, too small.

Check my page out:
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/turbotech.html

As for turbo'ing you NA...
I would not recommend it.
I think we got a stickie on this very subject in here.
If you insist on turbo power, look for a 13BT (and trans swap).


-Ted

[Shadow24v]

ok, it was a shot on the turbos (cheap and easy to get lol)

as for the PnP - i mean Port and Polish not Plug and Play. my Daily Driver is running a MS-II v3.0 already so im familiar with the system.

As for the turbocharging of an N/A motor, i know its not the "normal" route, but i have been unable to locate a suitable replacement motor or internals and corresponding peripherals. Plus i like being different (as seen in my 24v 3.0 swap on my Sundance Duster) and i know that tuning a higher compression motor is not easy but it has its pros and cons just like everything else. Ideally im looking for similar responsiveness as a N/A but with more punch and without impairing drivability

[djmtsu]

Alot of people have turbocharged their 6 ports. It isn't a big deal anymore. FerociousP did his last year. With the Japan2LA 6pt TII LIM it makes it downright easy. Plumbing for the turbo isn't hard either.

[Shadow24v]

whats the purpose of the LIM?

And can anyone give any insight into the different porting types?

[djmtsu]

The Japan2LA LIM is a 6 port intake manifold mated to a turbo 4 port manifold. It is a sweet piece that looks damn near stock.

Basically, with it you can run everything TII on an NA. Like I said earlier, FerociousP on here (local guy) did the 6 port turbo conversion on his GTUs. If you pop the hood, it looks like a TII, except it is a high compression 6 port engine. He is using an FCON for fuel control.

The car is actually for sale....

[Shadow24v]

I don't think i'd need that LIM as i plan on using the intake i have now unless i can nab an S5 N/A UIM.

As far as porting, i found that mazdatrix has a porting template for the 6-port that i believe is a mild/medium street port. I may go with that unless i get more info or find a better template

As soon as i finish the trans rebuild for my DD im going to be pulling the 7's motor and seeing where im at.

Speaking of transmissions, i've read that the N/A 5-speed trans isn't that strong. Would a mild turbo be too powerful for the transmission and what sort of fixes are there?

[TitaniumTT]

Every trans is going to be weak if you abuse it. <- That's a period meaning this statement is done and no longer up for discussion

Can a TII trans handle more torque than an n/a trans? Yes. Have people used N/A trans' for drag racing with a bridgeported GT42? Yes. Would I put a TII trans in? Yes.

If you're looking for streetabilty, stay away from Bridgeports or halfies. Stick with a street port and a mild one at that. My primaries are ported pretty large but are still considered a mid-large street port and the idle is iffy at best. I spend more time tuning idles and creating all these obscure normal position and initial position tables AND using the PID control and last night I think I FINALLY got a decent idle. We'll see when I start her up cold this morning.

[Shadow24v]

Ok, i know my thread has been dead for a while. but i've had a few bumps in the road lately (unemployed for a month, moving apartments among other things). But i'm still working on the 7. I have located a complete S5 engine/trans (N/A) and had a couple more Qs

basically, can i use the S5 and S4 to make a hybrid with the S5 intake and rotors while retaining the S4 electronics? I'd like to run the S5 rotors and manifold for the better HP gains N/A (add in a mild porting) but i haven't been able to find out if i have to go straight S5 or if i can put the S5 stuff together but utilize the S4 MOP and auxiliaries. (i also want the S5 so i have a choice of parts when i rebuild the motor this winter)

Assuming i can run the S5 internals and intake, is it necessary to upgrade the injectors or is there enough leeway in the stock fueling system to accommodate the HP bump?

If need be, DIYAutoTune now makes a Plug And Play MS that will plug into the S4 harness and all you have to do is take the S4 pinout and jumper it correctly internally. But i'd like to get it running on stock electronics before having to delve into a MS install and initial tune on a newly rebuilt motor.

Speaking of rebuilding. i have Atkins rebuild video but its not really that in depth. has anyone watched mazdatrix's rebuild and porting DVDs? are they worth it for a new rotorhead doing their first rebuild?

[Max777]

/\ Dude, go for a custom MS install if you're familiar with it already:

http://www.aaroncake.net/RX-7/megasq...asicTuning.asp

It will be much cleaner and get rid of a lot of shit like the MAF, variable resistor, etc etc etc, replace all that 20yo crusty ass wiring, and just generally be better than a plug n play.

You could go with an RTEK 2.0 ecu upgrade, but that is like $400 already, plus extra for PDA and cable, and I would recommend a fresh factory harness with that setup anyway (cork-sport: $800)

You can use the S5 stuff but you will need to use all S4 sensors n shit with the stock ECU. To run an S4 omp, you will need to use the S4 front cover. The S5 engine uses the emissions air pump to activate the 6pt system and the VDI system. I would take out the sleeves completely and not worry about it. After a certain point (this was told to me by Chris Ludwig, professional tuner) the sleeves do more bad than good. (high rpm airflow restriction) same with VDI...

If you can, keep the middle intake manifold S4, or weld open the vdi thing...

Here's my suggestion:

Tear apart both S4 and S5 blocks, and use the best parts out of both. IE: Spec the irons and check the housings for wear, use ones with least wear.

Use S5 rotors, front counterweight, and flywheel. Use an S4 front cover. If you go with a 6pt turbo however, you could run the slightly lower comp S4 rotors. The S5 N/A rotors are the highest comp 13B rotors, people use them in 300hp 3 rotor N/A builds.

Buy a racing beat main pulley. (s4 and s5 engines had different timing marks on the pulleys, if you screw up which ones went on where, you wont be able to time the engine very well. The RB pulley is make differently and has TDC mark)

Use S5 upper manifold with S4 throttle body.

Stock injectors on n/a are like 400cc and can support up to 200hp, they will be fine. Get a fresh pump( walbro stock replacement or 255lph if you go turbo, new fuel filter, and get the injectors refurbished (around $80 for 4 injectors)

EDIT: get a mild steet port if you want. You CAN send the engine to Kevin Landers and have it rebuilt and ported for around $1600. Considering he's a professional, and a rebuild kit already costs $950 This is a hell of a deal.

And I didn't even mention that most places charge about $3000 for a rebuilt motor.

[NoDOHC]

Originally Posted by Shadow24v

Assuming i can run the S5 internals and intake, is it necessary to upgrade the injectors or is there enough leeway in the stock fueling system to accommodate the HP bump?

I made 216 WHP @ 7500 rpm running 63% Duty cycle on stock 460 cc/min injectors.

Originally Posted by Shadow24v

Speaking of rebuilding. i have Atkins rebuild video but its not really that in depth. has anyone watched mazdatrix's rebuild and porting DVDs? are they worth it for a new rotorhead doing their first rebuild?

Porting is simple - and yet so complicated.
Short Story = It depends if you are the kind of person that learns well from watching a video.

Long Story = I am a hands-on person, always have been. I learned about porting by having a rotary engine apart and discussing what effect each cut would have on performance with several experienced rotary tuners. The fundamentals are very simple.

The simplest approach that I can give you is a list of rules of thumb:

1 -> To determine desired port opening/closing angles, go to CompCams website and find a Hp/Torque curve that you like and then duplicate the valve opening/closing times with your rotary's ports.
2 -> Make the port close as abruptly as possible. Although some argue that this harms side seal life, I have not seen this.
3 -> Understand your engine - You will not get good port velocity at 1,000 rpm. Don't try to cut low-rpm-tuned ports into your housings.
4 -> Get the air in - A good intake/throttle will make as much or more power than a port job. Uniform cross-sectional area from plenum to port is a big plus for power
5 -> Get the air out - A good port-matched exhaust (Short-tube, collected headers) will help your power more than you expect.

Here is porting in a nutshell:
You can't go more than about 1/16th of an inch towards the center (you will hit the oil seal).
You can't go out much at all (side seal will have no support and will dig in).
You can't go down because it is barely ever open and is too narrow to get air too.
Up is all you have for a street port.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to get an early enough port opening for any appreciable port overlap (intake and exhaust open simultaneously) so for "Hot" cam equivalents, you will need a bridge port.

A bridge port leaves a "bridge" for the side seal to travel on, while opening up a whole new world of early intake opening and port overlap.

This is a crude illustration that I made. I am sure that better ones exist (It wouldn't take much) but the content is there.