Copper water seals?

[sickofpistons]

Just want to know if there is another alternative to the rubber or plastic water seals? Maybe copper seals for better reliability and fewer blowouts?
Just alot of questions stuck in my head that need answering, lol.

[Max777]

I DID see a thread about some guy using copper wire for coolant seals on some junk engine, and they actually held up!

I couldn't find the post anymore, though.

[TitaniumTT]

Pineapple offers a set, and there was rumor about a Viton o-ring from McMaster that fit...... don't think I would use it as a compression seal though.

[classicauto]

If the plates and water seal grooves are in good shape, the car doesn't get overheated (ie. the rest of the cooling system is sorted for the use of the car) and you don't put washer fluid in your radiator the OEM's should last a very very long time.

I'm not aware of any actual copper ones, just the mentioned "heavy duty" versions. Personally, if you're toasting OEM coolant seals regularly, you'll likely have problesm with heavy duty ones because they are a symptom of another problem - not the cause.

[sickofpistons]

Originally Posted by classicauto

If the plates and water seal grooves are in good shape, the car doesn't get overheated (ie. the rest of the cooling system is sorted for the use of the car) and you don't put washer fluid in your radiator the OEM's should last a very very long time.

I'm not aware of any actual copper ones, just the mentioned "heavy duty" versions. Personally, if you're toasting OEM coolant seals regularly, you'll likely have problesm with heavy duty ones because they are a symptom of another problem - not the cause.

Im not tousting them regularly I was just wondering if they made a more reliable set? Are there any sites that offer them?

[RETed]

Why?
Are you having problems with the OEM stuff?
I've never had problems with the OEM stuff unless you:
1) Overheat the engine
2) Detonate the engine

What kind of power are you making?
Soft seals have been reliable in 400...500hp engines.
How much more power do you need???

I don't think used housing can handle higher levels of power / boost.
This almost requires BRAND NEW HOUSINGS (for tighter tolerance and less wear).

Last time I heard someone developing aftermarket seals, get in touch with banzaitoyota (I think) from the other forum - his made-from-the-same-stuff-they-use-in-nuclear-reactors came out to somewhere north of $1,000 PER SET.


-Ted

[C. Ludwig]

Like has already been said, if you're cooking seals you have and underlying problem. A seal failing is simply a symptom, it's not the disease. Aftermarket seals are poor fitting hype.

[sickofpistons]

Look people! I am NOT toasting seals so stop trying to toast me! I am going to school to study for engineering and was just WONDERING if there was such a thing!

DELETE THREAD

[vex]

Honestly if you want to you could just use spring energized stainless steel O-ring.

It's overkill and you'll spend more money on it than other people, but you won't ever have to worry about blowing one unless the casing falls away.

[sickofpistons]

Originally Posted by vex

Lol... Ted taking out the stops.

Honestly if you want to you could just use spring energized stainless steel O-ring.

It's overkill and you'll spend more money on it than other people, but you won't ever have to worry about blowing one unless the casing falls away.

Is there a site or a place that offers them so I can do some research?
Thanks

[vex]

Originally Posted by sickofpistons

Is there a site or a place that offers them so I can do some research?
Thanks

Not off hand but google is your friend. But here's something to consider: do a cost benefit analysis for the seals. Dollar for dollar stock will come out on top. For instance you will need the relief measurements and need to know the compression numbers to ensure positive sealing.

When I was looking up these seals it was for a bomb (solid rocket propellant testing apparatus, not ordinance). The good was that they could withstand extreme pressures, temperatures, and enviroments. Unfortunately they also need a certain amount of pressure/force for them to create a seal. What you need to know for any specific metal seal is that force/pressure. If it's too large then you will deform and ruin an aluminum housing.

I'm honestly surprised no one has made an aluminum seal. You can get al that's not super tough, anneal it, and install. Torque it down to spec and you have a metal seal that won't damage the housing.

[RETed]

Introducing ANOTHER metal into the whole environment means more the possibility of creating a "battery".
All you need is an electrolyte (wow, most coolants will do!) that allows the media to run an electrical current.
Add a corrosive factor (wow, combustion by-products can do that!), and that should eliminate almost any of the softer and more reactive metals LIKE COPPER AND ALUMINUM.
It's bad enough that you have (cast) steel / iron in there + the aluminum / stainless steel rotor housing - they are already eating themselves from the galvanic corrosion.
Using this kind of system compromises long term reliability.

Looks like you haven't done your homework - you sure you're in college? - Mazda already experimented with copper support seals to the original water jacket o-rings way back.

THEY ABANDONED IT CAUSE IT WAS NOT NECESSARY AND A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY.

So, we're down to basically a RACE ONLY set-up.
KSP Engineering has put down 700+ hp levels on soft-type seals.
NO USE OF ANY COPPER OR METAL SEALS.

why don't you ask the pro racers that have been doing this reliably for years now...
Abel Ibarra comes to mine.
Almost any of the PR guys can help you here.


-Ted

[vex]

I want copper water seals! Fuck if I could make them fit though...

[Whizbang]

straight copper = corrosion = bad

the plastic covered electrical wire from napa works tho (plastic coating prevents corrosion). Peejay has done this in his engines a few times and it works great and withstands heavy abuse.

[12arotary]

Originally Posted by Gravity Fed

straight copper = corrosion = bad

the plastic covered electrical wire from napa works tho (plastic coating prevents corrosion). Peejay has done this in his engines a few times and it works great and withstands heavy abuse.

I did it once after I saw peejays write up on his pport it worked great, it was in a 12a I had in an 85, the engine is still running as far as I know several thousand miles later and in the hands of another owner