Not Starting, not flooded (maybe)

RotaryBC · 07-08-2016, 11:31 AM

2005 RX-8 Shinka
6 Speed
147,000 miles (not by me)

A lot of oil on the front of the engine (oil was at the last dot on dipstick)
The issues is starting – The dealer said, “I parked in the shop next time to move it, it would not start.

Update: 13 July
Engine shot
Going to frame shop

Removed from the car:
Battery
Coils
Coil Wires
Plugs (hand tighten in engine)
Air box
Eccentric Shaft Sensor

On Order:
Plugs
Wires
Coils

When I saw the car they showed me it would turn over (engine not seized), I just wonder how many other people they did that for?

When I got it home and off the trailer I tried to start it and saw the gas needle was on empty
I put some gas in it, turned the key, but did not try to start, and did see the gas needle move (did not raise till I put some gas in it)

Quote:

What I plan to do:

Replace the spark plugs
connect the new battery
pour in 5 gals of racing fuel
try to start

This has changed.

Fendamonky · 07-08-2016, 11:35 AM

Did you just buy this car?

You can probably save the race gas.. I don't really think it's necessary for trying to start it.

Have you tried push-starting it? Have you verified that the coils are working properly?

RotaryBC · 07-08-2016, 12:06 PM

Yes, just purchased 6 Jul 16

I thought about pushing, wasn't sure about it being a rotary

I was going to check the coils and wires, when I replace the spark plugs.
Replacing the spark plugs tonight

I am focusing on the gas gage being on empty, you know the dealers never want to put gas in any car they sell (used car dealers)

Also:
The engine has a lot of oil on the front, from the Alt. to the bottom of the engine block

The oil filter had 6-18-15 written on it, should I do a fresh oil change before I attempt to start or wait till I get it starting? The dipstick read oil at the last dot, I put in a fresh qt.

Fendamonky · 07-08-2016, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotaryBC

Yes, just purchased 6 Jul 16

I thought about pushing, wasn't sure about it being a rotary

I was going to check the coils and wires, when I replace the spark plugs.
Replacing the spark plugs tonight

I am focusing on the gas gage being on empty, you know the dealers never want to put gas in any car they sell (used car dealers)

Also:
The engine has a lot of oil on the front, from the Alt. to the bottom of the engine block

The oil filter had 6-18-15 written on it, should I do a fresh oil change before I attempt to start or wait till I get it starting? The dipstick read oil at the last dot, I put in a fresh qt.

Push starting is fine on a rotary. I'm not as familiar with rx-8's, but signs of oil leaking like that is never a good thing...

I'd say pull the plugs to see if they're damp. You can crank the engine with the plugs out and, I believe, the EGI fuse removed to deflood the engine. Or, I'm fairly certain if you just put the gas pedal ALL the way down and crank it should also cut the fuel. Doing that a few times should clear out any flooding.

If your plugs are wet and fouled than replacing them will definitely be a good thing to do.

If the car won't start after it's been deflooded and has new plugs in than try the push start.. If the engine starts but runs rough as hell and scrapey, shut it off IMMEDIATELY, and take that shit back to the dealership for either a refund or a $5k discount, because that's what the rebuild will likely cost you...

RotaryBC · 07-08-2016, 12:28 PM

I didn't pay a lot for it, because it would not start (stole it).

I did go into this with open eyes to the problem.

I knew the rebuild would be 5K, I have been looking on the forums since I got my first RX-8 (2012). This is the moding car, track day car, just liability insurance.

chibikougan · 07-08-2016, 01:08 PM

http://foxed.ca/index.php?page=rx7manual#rx8

RotaryBC · 07-08-2016, 01:19 PM

Thank you for the link!

JL1RX7 · 07-08-2016, 02:42 PM

I would change everything. With that many miles on the RENI I would bet it's blown. Seeing oil on the front isn't a good sign. 8's have had a problem with corrosion on the oil cooler lines and splitting. So it's a good bet that's happened if it's been a northern car all its life.

I would recommend a complete fluid change, new plugs and especially new coils. A fully charged battery, real 91 or so gas fill to at least half a tank and try to start her.

Things to check/clean the SSV and the MAP sensor. Both are known to cause hard starting issues.

Fendamonky · 07-08-2016, 04:21 PM

^^^ Listen to him. Jack knows rx-8's pretty damn well.

RotaryBC · 07-08-2016, 09:10 PM

Hello All,

I connected the battery turned it over for 5-7 seconds..nothing

after about 3 mins of this it started to putter then I smelled the gas so I stopped.

The motor didn't have any unusual noises.

I removed the air box

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7F...ew?usp=sharing

The oil is the new oil I put in it yesterday...what could that mean, besides flooding?

As you can see there is a lot of oil on the front of the engine, I did this close-up of the closest coil

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7F...ew?usp=sharing

Found service records in the glove box, let's hope some of his records got lost!

Looking at the records he replaced the plugs back in Jan 2015 between oil changes 131K and 141K. On the 141K service (148K total) it was noted:
“STARTING DIFFICULTIES”
“CUSTOMER AWARE”

Looking at the picture the coils are oem and I saw the blue&green tape on the wires.

I think the oil killed a coil or damaged a wire.

When I have more time to get dirty:

Continue to remove items to get to and remove the coils and wires
Clean them up
Test them
Then order new ones any way..

Read what JL1RX7 said about the mass air flow sensor and took these two pictures of the air box

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...VdBckFxQXMxVEk

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...UJ2QVA5ancxaGs

Bit of cleaning and maybe new air filter?

JL1RX7 · 07-09-2016, 06:09 AM

More than a bit of cleaning! Never seen that much oil up that high on the motor. Looks like they drenched those coils in oil. Replace them all, clean everything and see what you got. But from the sounds of it it's blown. You can use a cheapo compression tester to get ball park numbers.

Also be careful of what you read on eight club. Lots of good info on there. But lots of armchair bullshit with it. Follow the tech stuff on how to pull it apart. The rest is mostly opinions. So you generally get one piece of good info in a thread with rest either wrong or lies. It can be difficult to figure out which is which.

RotaryBC · 07-09-2016, 09:37 AM

I have ordered the wires, coils, plugs and air filter, will not arrive till 19th
When I remove them, I will give them a test and clean the area, to be ready for the new ones

HF compression tester??

Right I have learned one thing already:

READ then DO; not DO then READ

Yeah, just say "Synthetic will hurt your Grandmother"

RotaryBC · 07-09-2016, 09:58 AM

Speaking of cleaning, what cleaner or cleaning solution to use on the engine, and how I should use it and any odd things, like it will shrink your testicles, in CA

JL1RX7 · 07-09-2016, 10:37 AM

Dawn soap might be cheapest. Anything really to cut the oil. Just be sure to protect the electric stuff's. And won't eat soft seals. So lots of elbow grease and rags.

JL1RX7 · 07-09-2016, 11:05 AM

Possible, but usually that's lower on the block. Either the injectors are clogged and the OMP kept pumping or the SSV did something. But around the coils no oil lines are close. Fill tube and oil filter are further back.

07-08-2016, 12:06 PM	#3
RotaryBC The Newbie Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Troy, Mi iTrader: (0) Posts: 24 Rep Power: 0	Yes, just purchased 6 Jul 16 I thought about pushing, wasn't sure about it being a rotary I was going to check the coils and wires, when I replace the spark plugs. Replacing the spark plugs tonight I am focusing on the gas gage being on empty, you know the dealers never want to put gas in any car they sell (used car dealers) Also: The engine has a lot of oil on the front, from the Alt. to the bottom of the engine block The oil filter had 6-18-15 written on it, should I do a fresh oil change before I attempt to start or wait till I get it starting? The dipstick read oil at the last dot, I put in a fresh qt. __________________ 2005 RX-8 Shinka 171 2005 RX-8 Shinka 1137

07-08-2016, 12:28 PM	#5
RotaryBC The Newbie Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Troy, Mi iTrader: (0) Posts: 24 Rep Power: 0	I didn't pay a lot for it, because it would not start (stole it). I did go into this with open eyes to the problem. I knew the rebuild would be 5K, I have been looking on the forums since I got my first RX-8 (2012). This is the moding car, track day car, just liability insurance. __________________ 2005 RX-8 Shinka 171 2005 RX-8 Shinka 1137

07-08-2016, 01:19 PM	#7
RotaryBC The Newbie Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Troy, Mi iTrader: (0) Posts: 24 Rep Power: 0	Thank you for the link! __________________ 2005 RX-8 Shinka 171 2005 RX-8 Shinka 1137

07-08-2016, 09:10 PM	#10
RotaryBC The Newbie Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Troy, Mi iTrader: (0) Posts: 24 Rep Power: 0	Hello All, I connected the battery turned it over for 5-7 seconds..nothing after about 3 mins of this it started to putter then I smelled the gas so I stopped. The motor didn't have any unusual noises. I removed the air box https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7F...ew?usp=sharing The oil is the new oil I put in it yesterday...what could that mean, besides flooding? As you can see there is a lot of oil on the front of the engine, I did this close-up of the closest coil https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7F...ew?usp=sharing Found service records in the glove box, let's hope some of his records got lost! Looking at the records he replaced the plugs back in Jan 2015 between oil changes 131K and 141K. On the 141K service (148K total) it was noted: “STARTING DIFFICULTIES” “CUSTOMER AWARE” Looking at the picture the coils are oem and I saw the blue&green tape on the wires. I think the oil killed a coil or damaged a wire. When I have more time to get dirty: Continue to remove items to get to and remove the coils and wires Clean them up Test them Then order new ones any way.. Read what JL1RX7 said about the mass air flow sensor and took these two pictures of the air box https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...VdBckFxQXMxVEk https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...UJ2QVA5ancxaGs Bit of cleaning and maybe new air filter? __________________ 2005 RX-8 Shinka 171 2005 RX-8 Shinka 1137

07-09-2016, 09:37 AM	#12
RotaryBC The Newbie Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Troy, Mi iTrader: (0) Posts: 24 Rep Power: 0	I have ordered the wires, coils, plugs and air filter, will not arrive till 19th When I remove them, I will give them a test and clean the area, to be ready for the new ones HF compression tester?? Right I have learned one thing already: READ then DO; not DO then READ Yeah, just say "Synthetic will hurt your Grandmother" __________________ 2005 RX-8 Shinka 171 2005 RX-8 Shinka 1137

07-08-2016, 02:42 PM	#8
JL1RX7 Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Front Royal, VA iTrader: (1) Posts: 487 Rep Power: 17	I would change everything. With that many miles on the RENI I would bet it's blown. Seeing oil on the front isn't a good sign. 8's have had a problem with corrosion on the oil cooler lines and splitting. So it's a good bet that's happened if it's been a northern car all its life. I would recommend a complete fluid change, new plugs and especially new coils. A fully charged battery, real 91 or so gas fill to at least half a tank and try to start her. Things to check/clean the SSV and the MAP sensor. Both are known to cause hard starting issues.

07-09-2016, 06:09 AM	#11
JL1RX7 Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Front Royal, VA iTrader: (1) Posts: 487 Rep Power: 17	More than a bit of cleaning! Never seen that much oil up that high on the motor. Looks like they drenched those coils in oil. Replace them all, clean everything and see what you got. But from the sounds of it it's blown. You can use a cheapo compression tester to get ball park numbers. Also be careful of what you read on eight club. Lots of good info on there. But lots of armchair bullshit with it. Follow the tech stuff on how to pull it apart. The rest is mostly opinions. So you generally get one piece of good info in a thread with rest either wrong or lies. It can be difficult to figure out which is which.

07-09-2016, 09:58 AM	#13
RotaryBC The Newbie Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Troy, Mi iTrader: (0) Posts: 24 Rep Power: 0	Speaking of cleaning, what cleaner or cleaning solution to use on the engine, and how I should use it and any odd things, like it will shrink your testicles, in CA __________________ 2005 RX-8 Shinka 171 2005 RX-8 Shinka 1137

07-09-2016, 10:37 AM	#14
JL1RX7 Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Front Royal, VA iTrader: (1) Posts: 487 Rep Power: 17	Dawn soap might be cheapest. Anything really to cut the oil. Just be sure to protect the electric stuff's. And won't eat soft seals. So lots of elbow grease and rags.

07-09-2016, 11:05 AM	#15
JL1RX7 Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Front Royal, VA iTrader: (1) Posts: 487 Rep Power: 17	Possible, but usually that's lower on the block. Either the injectors are clogged and the OMP kept pumping or the SSV did something. But around the coils no oil lines are close. Fill tube and oil filter are further back. Last edited by JL1RX7; 07-09-2016 at 11:08 AM..