Clutch Woes

RoughRex · 03-26-2009, 02:52 PM

Ok guys and gals, I'm needing some real seasoned pro advice here...

The car is a 1988 Naturally Aspirated Rx7 with a 5 speed manual transmission.

The problem I have is that the clutch sticks part way or all the way down when attempting to change gears. It only appears to do this when the car is warmed up and usually gets worse if I'm in heavy traffic (lots of clutch use). The problem is also erratic, the clutch may stick down and then work fine for several minutes.

I have checked the master, slave and flex hose and found no leaks. The fluid is still full. I recently purchased NEW Beck Arnley Master and slave and got a braided, stainless flex hose, replaced them all and bled well just to be sure and still the problem remains.. I have now just spent A LOT on rebuilding the entire transmission for related and unrelated issues as well as a replacement clutch kit. and STILL the problem remains.

Now the transmission shop wants to charge me to replace the already new master and slave (still no leaks btw) because they just don't know what else it could be...

Honestly, I think they must have missed something with the clutch fork or release bearing. Please advise.

Max777 · 03-26-2009, 03:14 PM

could it maybe just that they did a bad job bleeding it? When I installed a new throwout bearing on my transmission, I put a dab of wheel bearing grease on the clutch fork pivot, the bearing "slide" area, and other spots.

BTW: Maybe you need to adjust the pedal itself? If the beck arnely stuff is new, check if it's still within warranty!

djmtsu · 03-26-2009, 04:38 PM

He got the stuff from me. But if it needs to be warrantied out I can probably get it taken care of.

Although I have had the same exact set up on mine for 2 years now with no issues!

Your FC is odd Jason!

88turboii · 03-26-2009, 04:55 PM

try adjusting teh pedal so that it doesnt push the rod as far. maybe you are pushing the clutch too far and it is catching?

RoughRex · 03-26-2009, 05:51 PM

I Spoke to the guy at the shop again before I left work.. They have been unable to recreate the problem and still suggest replacing the master and slave. I told them to keep driving until they are certain what the issue is. If they become certain that it's the hydraulics I might be in contact with you dj but for the moment I'm still doubting it.

***TitaniumTT*** · 03-26-2009, 11:02 PM

I doubt it's the hydraulics. I would first
remove the clutch master and make sure there is no binding on the pedal assembly. A bushing may be worn
Next I would re-install the master and make sure that the rod is adjusted properly
After that, I would have to assume that the release bearing is binding on the shaft. That would be the worst thing that could happen though as it would require the removal of the transmission entirely.

RoughRex · 03-27-2009, 11:27 AM

I really suspect it's the release bearing binding and that's why he's giving me the run around because he doesn't want to have to drop the tranny again... but we shall see soon enough hopefully.

85rx-7gsl-se · 03-27-2009, 11:35 AM

Sounds like their isnt enough free play in the pedal.

rx4ur7 · 03-27-2009, 01:30 PM

If you are not feeling any binding and the pedal moves freely you could well have a bad master, does the pedal stay to the floor? Is the master new or rebuilt aftermarket? Bleed by in the master is common especially when used a lot when a master is bad.
If the pedal stays to the floor when sitting at a light then works fine suspect master.

If you are feeling a stepping or binding, I would suspect TOB/fork/trans front cover issue. Anyone that knows about these TOBs lubes the front cover sleeve and packs the TOB groove with some sort of good grease. All I use are Mazda new parts so I don't know what sort of issues arise with non-Mazda parts. Beck does have good product so I wouldn't think the clutch itself is the problem. Unless there is something to do with it's install.

I wouldn't recommend adjusting the pedal with the rod, there should always be a little bit of play from pedal up to contact with the piston. You will wear out a clutch in short time if there is no play. I have had to replace a lot of clutches because someone adjusted a clutch with the pedal rod. It is a hydralic system so it is self adjusting. But yes check it make sure there is some play.

RoughRex · 03-27-2009, 02:04 PM

The clutch master and slave are Beck Arnley, the Clutch kit is Luk. All parts are new not rebuilt/reman. I had this exact same issue before I replaced the master and slave which is why it seems really unlikely that it's the hydraulics. I'm not getting any binding in the pedal on the way down, it just sticks on the way back up or sometimes all the way down or sometimes not at all. The shop has also rebled the hydraulics three times and the reservoir has been full the entire time so I'm 99.9% sure it's not air in the hydraulics or a leak.

Another reason I have a hard time suspecting the hydraulics is because the issue seems to present after about 20 minutes of driving once the motor is hot AND I've only had the problem while the motor is running... now it could be that my method of testing after I shut off the car is insufficient... perhaps I should shut it off and hold the pedal down for a couple of minutes at a time to see if it keeps pressure.

Another thing that may point to the source is that where ever the clutch pedal sticks becomes the engagement position of the clutch unless I pull the pedal back up. So, if the pedal sticks 2 inches from the floor and I leave it there, I only barely have to push it in to disengage the clutch.... which I've been having a hard time getting my brain around... but I suddenly think that does point squarely at the master...

Thoughts?

***TitaniumTT*** · 03-27-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoughRex

Another thing that may point to the source is that where ever the clutch pedal sticks becomes the engagement position of the clutch unless I pull the pedal back up. So, if the pedal sticks 2 inches from the floor and I leave it there, I only barely have to push it in to disengage the clutch.... which I've been having a hard time getting my brain around... but I suddenly think that does point squarely at the master...

Thoughts?

That says hydraulics to me

rx4ur7 · 03-27-2009, 03:37 PM

Odds are if it did the exact same thing before you changed everything then it shouldn't be the master. If it is hanging up midway my money is that the front bearing cover is notched, (something I saw a lot of in RX2/RX3 where you had to replace the bellhousing which we replaced quite a few, is there a reason mazda made the front bearing a separate part.. in all the later models we replaced the AL bearing cover with the steel version in all the race cars) or something with the fork and or pivot. But there is alway that 2%. Check that rod though to make sure you have some clearence. Because if there isn't it can cause problems. If it is in too much it will not allow all the fluid to return through the master.

classicauto · 03-27-2009, 03:40 PM

On the bleeding issue.....

I've once done a R&I of my trans to fix a blown clutch. That time, and only that time, I had a FUCKING NIGHTMARE getting the clutch bled. I had to bleed and bleed, and vaccum, and un bolt the slave and hold it upside down, sideways, etc.....it was over the course of a two week period and 2 litres of brake fluid. It would stick ever so slightly here there. Not exactly like what you're describing though as it would only ever stick at the bottom of its throw. But you would swear up and down there was no air in the system, but yet - there was.

But nonetheless, I've had the bleeding take 5 minutes, but sometimes (I have no idea why) it is a ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS. I'd recommend taking sometiem with yourself and a buddy and give it a go for a while. The bleeding of course.....

rx4ur7 · 03-27-2009, 03:51 PM

Point taken Classic, I've had a similar experience once. Did they bench bleed the master? But if it is an air problem I don't think the pedal would hang up mid stroke. Just be mushy and not work the clutch at all. At least that is what it did to me.
Gee Thanks for reminding me of that one, bench bled all C masters and filled slaves after that pain, and of course the owner was waiting.

***TitaniumTT*** · 03-27-2009, 06:16 PM

My original thought was the T/O bearing hanging up.... but when he mentioned the engagement point changing, I don't think a hanging t/o bearing would cause that...

03-26-2009, 02:52 PM	#1
RoughRex Out of Nickels and Dimes Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (0) Posts: 192 Rep Power: 17	Clutch Woes Ok guys and gals, I'm needing some real seasoned pro advice here... The car is a 1988 Naturally Aspirated Rx7 with a 5 speed manual transmission. The problem I have is that the clutch sticks part way or all the way down when attempting to change gears. It only appears to do this when the car is warmed up and usually gets worse if I'm in heavy traffic (lots of clutch use). The problem is also erratic, the clutch may stick down and then work fine for several minutes. I have checked the master, slave and flex hose and found no leaks. The fluid is still full. I recently purchased NEW Beck Arnley Master and slave and got a braided, stainless flex hose, replaced them all and bled well just to be sure and still the problem remains.. I have now just spent A LOT on rebuilding the entire transmission for related and unrelated issues as well as a replacement clutch kit. and STILL the problem remains. Now the transmission shop wants to charge me to replace the already new master and slave (still no leaks btw) because they just don't know what else it could be... Honestly, I think they must have missed something with the clutch fork or release bearing. Please advise. __________________ 1988 GXL

03-26-2009, 03:14 PM	#2
Max777 Pirate Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central IL iTrader: (5) Posts: 1,323 Rep Power: 18	could it maybe just that they did a bad job bleeding it? When I installed a new throwout bearing on my transmission, I put a dab of wheel bearing grease on the clutch fork pivot, the bearing "slide" area, and other spots. BTW: Maybe you need to adjust the pedal itself? If the beck arnely stuff is new, check if it's still within warranty! __________________ Rotaries:They are NOT that complicated!

03-26-2009, 04:38 PM	#3
djmtsu My minds tellin' me no... Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Murfreesboro, TN iTrader: (10) Posts: 4,043 Rep Power: 21	He got the stuff from me. But if it needs to be warrantied out I can probably get it taken care of. Although I have had the same exact set up on mine for 2 years now with no issues! Your FC is odd Jason! __________________ 1976 Mazda Cosmo RX-5 1976 Mazda Cosmo RX-5 2003 Toyota Tundra TRD 2015 Toyota 4Runner SR5

03-26-2009, 05:51 PM	#5
RoughRex Out of Nickels and Dimes Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (0) Posts: 192 Rep Power: 17	I Spoke to the guy at the shop again before I left work.. They have been unable to recreate the problem and still suggest replacing the master and slave. I told them to keep driving until they are certain what the issue is. If they become certain that it's the hydraulics I might be in contact with you dj but for the moment I'm still doubting it. __________________ 1988 GXL

03-27-2009, 11:27 AM	#7
RoughRex Out of Nickels and Dimes Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (0) Posts: 192 Rep Power: 17	I really suspect it's the release bearing binding and that's why he's giving me the run around because he doesn't want to have to drop the tranny again... but we shall see soon enough hopefully. __________________ 1988 GXL

03-26-2009, 04:55 PM	#4
88turboii destroy, rebuild, repeat Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Charleston, SC iTrader: (0) Posts: 395 Rep Power: 17	try adjusting teh pedal so that it doesnt push the rod as far. maybe you are pushing the clutch too far and it is catching?

03-26-2009, 11:02 PM	#6
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	I doubt it's the hydraulics. I would first remove the clutch master and make sure there is no binding on the pedal assembly. A bushing may be worn Next I would re-install the master and make sure that the rod is adjusted properly After that, I would have to assume that the release bearing is binding on the shaft. That would be the worst thing that could happen though as it would require the removal of the transmission entirely.

03-27-2009, 01:30 PM	#9
rx4ur7 Rotary since 1972 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tucson iTrader: (0) Posts: 231 Rep Power: 17	If you are not feeling any binding and the pedal moves freely you could well have a bad master, does the pedal stay to the floor? Is the master new or rebuilt aftermarket? Bleed by in the master is common especially when used a lot when a master is bad. If the pedal stays to the floor when sitting at a light then works fine suspect master. If you are feeling a stepping or binding, I would suspect TOB/fork/trans front cover issue. Anyone that knows about these TOBs lubes the front cover sleeve and packs the TOB groove with some sort of good grease. All I use are Mazda new parts so I don't know what sort of issues arise with non-Mazda parts. Beck does have good product so I wouldn't think the clutch itself is the problem. Unless there is something to do with it's install. I wouldn't recommend adjusting the pedal with the rod, there should always be a little bit of play from pedal up to contact with the piston. You will wear out a clutch in short time if there is no play. I have had to replace a lot of clutches because someone adjusted a clutch with the pedal rod. It is a hydralic system so it is self adjusting. But yes check it make sure there is some play. Last edited by rx4ur7; 03-27-2009 at 01:40 PM..

03-27-2009, 02:04 PM	#10
RoughRex Out of Nickels and Dimes Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (0) Posts: 192 Rep Power: 17	The clutch master and slave are Beck Arnley, the Clutch kit is Luk. All parts are new not rebuilt/reman. I had this exact same issue before I replaced the master and slave which is why it seems really unlikely that it's the hydraulics. I'm not getting any binding in the pedal on the way down, it just sticks on the way back up or sometimes all the way down or sometimes not at all. The shop has also rebled the hydraulics three times and the reservoir has been full the entire time so I'm 99.9% sure it's not air in the hydraulics or a leak. Another reason I have a hard time suspecting the hydraulics is because the issue seems to present after about 20 minutes of driving once the motor is hot AND I've only had the problem while the motor is running... now it could be that my method of testing after I shut off the car is insufficient... perhaps I should shut it off and hold the pedal down for a couple of minutes at a time to see if it keeps pressure. Another thing that may point to the source is that where ever the clutch pedal sticks becomes the engagement position of the clutch unless I pull the pedal back up. So, if the pedal sticks 2 inches from the floor and I leave it there, I only barely have to push it in to disengage the clutch.... which I've been having a hard time getting my brain around... but I suddenly think that does point squarely at the master... Thoughts? __________________ 1988 GXL

03-27-2009, 03:37 PM	#12
rx4ur7 Rotary since 1972 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tucson iTrader: (0) Posts: 231 Rep Power: 17	Odds are if it did the exact same thing before you changed everything then it shouldn't be the master. If it is hanging up midway my money is that the front bearing cover is notched, (something I saw a lot of in RX2/RX3 where you had to replace the bellhousing which we replaced quite a few, is there a reason mazda made the front bearing a separate part.. in all the later models we replaced the AL bearing cover with the steel version in all the race cars) or something with the fork and or pivot. But there is alway that 2%. Check that rod though to make sure you have some clearence. Because if there isn't it can cause problems. If it is in too much it will not allow all the fluid to return through the master. Last edited by rx4ur7; 03-27-2009 at 03:41 PM..

03-27-2009, 03:51 PM	#14
rx4ur7 Rotary since 1972 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tucson iTrader: (0) Posts: 231 Rep Power: 17	Point taken Classic, I've had a similar experience once. Did they bench bleed the master? But if it is an air problem I don't think the pedal would hang up mid stroke. Just be mushy and not work the clutch at all. At least that is what it did to me. Gee Thanks for reminding me of that one, bench bled all C masters and filled slaves after that pain, and of course the owner was waiting.

03-27-2009, 06:16 PM	#15
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	My original thought was the T/O bearing hanging up.... but when he mentioned the engagement point changing, I don't think a hanging t/o bearing would cause that...

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