high volt ignition coils

[Garfinkles Motor Works]

Some people are looking for the highest out put coils that are available for using with the rotary motor .Let us know your findings and sugestions. If the information is leading toward one best coil I may make a mount for the modification . My car has four Jacobs C4 coils powered by an AEM twin fire module .

[TitaniumTT]

Have you seen this thread? Realistically I should have this done by the end of July

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ad.php?t=10166

[t_g_farrell]

Interesting, the Merc Marine and Jacob C4 all basically look like a
Ford TFI coil.

I'm not a 3rd gen guy but I'm using two HEI igniters (4 prong) to
drive 2 Ford TFI coils (one connected to each leading plug). No
trailing. It all works great and flawlessly. I sourced mine off of
some F150 pickups at the junkyard for $10 each. These work
up to 8K with no issues. Heres a pic of the install:

[FC Zach]

Originally Posted by t_g_farrell

Interesting, the Merc Marine and Jacob C4 all basically look like a
Ford TFI coil.

I'm not a 3rd gen guy but I'm using two HEI igniters (4 prong) to
drive 2 Ford TFI coils (one connected to each leading plug). No
trailing. It all works great and flawlessly. I sourced mine off of
some F150 pickups at the junkyard for $10 each. These work
up to 8K with no issues. Heres a pic of the install:

They do have similarities. The newer Jacobs coils have even changed their connector to the Ford 2 pin connector.

[Kentetsu]

I would definitely be interested in something like this, if made available for 1st gen cars.




.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Garfinkles Motor Works

Some people are looking for the highest out put coils that are available for using with the rotary motor .Let us know your findings and sugestions. If the information is leading toward one best coil I may make a mount for the modification . My car has four Jacobs C4 coils powered by an AEM twin fire module .

I have a custom coil on plug set up.

Dynatek ARC2 and 0.5 ohm coils, I have measured both the current and voltage on this set up with my own equipment. I'll try to collate the data and post it up in this thread.

"This is testing of my CDI system, for current flow, primary voltage, secondary burn time, number of spark restrikes....

Burn time is roughly 420us or .4 milliseconds and there is 6 separate restrikes at 1000rpm over roughly 5 milliseconds per cycle. System pulls about 25 amps of first spark and 13 amps for the restrike sparks."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLGr...layer_embedded

I have pics of my CDI system in my car thread, takes too long for me to load up that page to find the exact picture though lol.

The power of this system is great, it can out do the HKS DLI and stock ign coil and lead by a long way (run the car much richer and maximum level of water injection however like all CDI systems very low speed running *idle* in particular is not as good (burn time way too short as shown) as what you get with an inductive ignition even with multiple sparks. The longer duration offered by transistor is superior, once engine speed is up the CDI is superior.

[RICE RACING]

Harness and completed coil packs, can be taken off in 20 seconds, modular front and rear rotor assembly.

[t_g_farrell]

Thats a nice setup and some sturdy brackets.

How much do those things weigh in at?

I once heard that CDI wasn't good with a rotary and was confused about
why that would be. Looks like it works fine but as you say at idle its not
the best but once your up in the revs its better than most regular ignitions.

Another myth debunked.

[RICE RACING]

Its all quite light, all up weight is less than the stock parts swapped out.

The problem with CDI on a rotary is the burn time is quite small, ~ around 420usec, it can multi strike all it likes but the even is long gone after then to establish good combustion, it does help but it never makes it as good as a long burning inductive ign set up. Any revs above 2000rpm to 3000rpm my own testing and feeling is the CDI is superior as shown by what mixture it will reliably fire, it will burn a much leaner mixture without misfire and also a much richer mixture as well.

I did a test where I can swap out both my ign systems (stock and HKS DLI) with the full CDI coil on plug and on return to idle and idle quality the stock will always work better. Many years ago when I was pioneering *seemed that way* the Crane Hi6 and LX92 on each leading coil I found the same thing, but I never had the equipment to actually measure what was happening, I did note that the idle was worse and without multi strike it was bad, but once revs and speed (time for combustion were shortened) the CDI immense current and voltage come into its own and there are big gains to be had.

This is why the HKS use a "twin power system" transistor for low speed and capacitor for high speed.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by t_g_farrell

Another myth debunked.

I wouldn't go that far. Seems to me that each system has it's place. To me a good powerful inductive system on a street driven rotary would be superior as long as combustion pressures aren't that high. I'll be doing my own dyno testing in a few weeks using two different CDI setups.

[RICE RACING]

Yeah agreed its a subject that gets people agitated lol.

I love CDI, if I had no ECU bullshit to contend with I'd run a magneto we are very limited with this modern rubbish.
Very high energy and long duration ignitions can run richer than 8:1 AFR and 150% water to fuel ratio's.

Most I have ever been able to experiment with is ~9.5:1 AFR and 60% water to fuel ratio's on my own design COP CDI system. It's a real limitation having to tune for the inadequacy of spark power rather than to maximize reliability & power.

Its no fucking different in glow plug 2 strokes IMHO, I do that as a hobby (bit obsessive I know!) and the same applies, you run a glow plug that is hot and it can take far far more fuel (richness) and you can make a shit load more power than you can on a lean mixture (yes I do data log it lol!) all the while being far more reliable and cooler on the engine. Being able to initiate the ignition event is the most critical aspect, if this cant be done your just chasing your tail and setting up the engine to suit your ign limitations and this is the wrong way to set up any engine.

[Garfinkles Motor Works]

Now that is some info NICE .your brackets, mounts are really nice. Good info good work good to see someone doing some good stuff . I have a question ,the AEM twin fire digital ignition module I am using has multi strike capablity of up to 10 sparks per ignition trigger -20 degrees . As the rpm go up there is less time for additional sparks .It is turned off ,the question is should I turn it on .If this is the way to go and Rice Racing has developed the system and the brackets I will not copy it to sell ,It looks like they can sell all they can put out .I will continue to sell my relocation plates unless another coil proves better .All those who are asking me for another idea on coils,reread Rice Racings input .Others with info please step up and post . Rice Racing I am looking for your answer,multi spark or leave it turned off . .Again NICE

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Garfinkles Motor Works

Now that is some info NICE .your brackets, mounts are really nice. Good info good work good to see someone doing some good stuff . I have a question ,the AEM twin fire digital ignition module I am using has multi strike capablity of up to 10 sparks per ignition trigger -20 degrees . As the rpm go up there is less time for additional sparks .It is turned off ,the question is should I turn it on .If this is the way to go and Rice Racing has developed the system and the brackets I will not copy it to sell ,It looks like they can sell all they can put out .I will continue to sell my relocation plates unless another coil proves better .All those who are asking me for another idea on coils,reread Rice Racings input .Others with info please step up and post . Rice Racing I am looking for your answer,multi spark or leave it turned off . .Again NICE

Hi there, thanks for kind words

I have had plenty of people contact me about this system, even "prominent Australians" wanting to copy the set up, I don't have a problem if people want to mass produce the system, I designed and made that myself I'm sure someone else may make their own version or copy that one? either way I'm not fussed.

For your question on multi strike, yes it will just run out of time to do much after 3000rpm, all these modules have a set window of degrees of crank rotation to charge the capacitors and it greatly diminishes with increase crank speed, so whatever the crank angle specification for multi discharge to work over is the amount of restrikes will decay as rpm goes up. Sorry for the BDC touch type reply on this!

For CDI it is essential to have the restrike feature turned ON, you can have it off and you will see,feel and hear the difference in the idle quality and how the motor will run up to ~3000rpm, the multi strikes are not enough to make it equal a good inductive ign set up for burn quality/stability but it does make a big improvement over single strike CDI set up. I tested that on the Crane Hi6 LX92 CDI coil combo on may rotaries and also on the Dynatek system pictured above. Other systems have been tested as well and all showed the same or similar attributes.

Check for yourself and I love to hear your experience on it, that's what a good place like this is about is quality information being shared so we can all benefit from it.

Peter

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Hi there, thanks for kind words

I have had plenty of people contact me about this system, even "prominent Australians" wanting to copy the set up, I don't have a problem if people want to mass produce the system, I designed and made that myself I'm sure someone else may make their own version or copy that one? either way I'm not fussed.

For your question on multi strike, yes it will just run out of time to do much after 3000rpm, all these modules have a set window of degrees of crank rotation to charge the capacitors and it greatly diminishes with increase crank speed, so whatever the crank angle specification for multi discharge to work over is the amount of restrikes will decay as rpm goes up. Sorry for the BDC touch type reply on this!

Hey Peter, I think alot of us are on the same page in terms of knowledge and theory, but we're looking at it for two or three different applications. My applications are also street driven, mostly street driven, no aux or water injection, just straight pump gas. That setup lends itself much more towards an inductive coil which as you put it

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

For CDI it is essential to have the restrike feature turned ON, you can have it off and you will see,feel and hear the difference in the idle quality and how the motor will run up to ~3000rpm, the multi strikes are not enough to make it equal a good inductive ign set up for burn quality/stability but it does make a big improvement over single strike CDI set up. I tested that on the Crane Hi6 LX92 CDI coil combo on may rotaries and also on the Dynatek system pictured above. Other systems have been tested as well and all showed the same or similar attributes.

So the next question is how much more torque are you gettin over 3k and is it worth some of the driveability hassels. I'm interested to see the difference between a good CDI and a good inductive are on the dyno in a 400hp engine. I don't believe that there will be a big difference between the two until the HP levels get really high.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Check for yourself and I love to hear your experience on it, that's what a good place like this is about is quality information being shared so we can all benefit from it.

Peter

Well said

[RICE RACING]

I have found it all comes down to the way you want to calibrate the engine, in short the more ign power you have (real delivered energy v's paper claim) the more flexibility you have to use all the tools at your disposal. I.E. Free ign timing setting, plug heat range, fuel mixture.

You are tuning the engine, not the lack of spark telling you how to tune it.

It's a balance to what you can afford, how it runs, how many plugs it chews through lol, how many CDI units melt in some cases too. I have found power losses ascribed to arbitrary things like ideal fuel mixtures etc don't take into account basics like ability to run much higher boost pressures (even on fuel alone) that more richness allows, its however not able to be exploited when you don't have the ability to initiate the combustion process.

The inner BDC in my typed that reply lol.