Rotary Engine Failure due to Side Rotor/Side Rotor Housing Clearance..
 

This thread is based on conversation that took placeHERE about if clearancing the rotor is necessary or not on street driven engine. Posts are moved here by request





Who clearanced the rotors for you? Also, what is the purpose? Running high levels of boost?

I'm confused also.. maybe because its late at night but what does it entail when you say "race clearanced"??

Glen would have to elaborate since I am not a engine builder :). However it allows you to rev the piss out of the motor without interference of the irons.

Rotary Engine Failure due to Side Rotor/Side Rotor Housing Clearance..
 

I could see it being balanced.. But that doesn't mean you could still spin the "piss out" of it... Usually you also have to balance everything else.. including eshaft and flywheel.

I'm also curious how you are going to save money.. Because I thought you still have to buy a short block ;)

I think Charlie was making a very gerneral stament becuase of the proprietary process I do not share.

Basically you are correct Herb......It is one of the steps we take to allow for increase rpm operations. These engines were designed with certain power and tourque outputs, when increasing that output some cleanrences need to be incresed.

Steps AZRR takes

1. clearencing the rotors(proprietary)
2. balncing the rotaing assembly
3. stationary gear mod (proprietary)
4. seal clearencing (proprietary)

As you can see most of what we do is a trade secret, so charlie does not know the whole story but in general he is correct.

Glen,

I'm not trying to give you or Charlie hard time, but I'm still confused to what "cleanrences need to be incresed". Does this mean, tighter seal fit to the grooves or just balance? I know you say its 'proprietary', but I also think that's pretty general statement.

And lastly, if it is truly proprietary stuff, I don't know why you are allowing Charlie to post pictures of the rotors and such.

Phill, its just not something I am going to discuss. I dont want charlie to feel like he cant share his project ...I am not going to elaborate on our processes.

OK Glen.. I'll just wait for more pictures.

Question to Glen:

1. Do you require brand new rotors to be used for your proprietary clearance?

2. Still use OEM seals or other special seals for the proprietary work you do?

Hope you could answer these couple of questions.

1. used are fine

2 Yes, oem seals work great

I do not use anything other than oem. Unless it is a apex seal and that is only ceramics from Ianetti

So apex seals are either mazda or ceramic from Ienetti , the rest is oem only

I just asked my builder (Luis) and he explained it to me...

He gave me a link that I should share about clearancing..

I was told my by builder that its not necessary on engines that does not run high RPM for extended period of time. And like most things, race and street prep pros and cons should be highly considered before doing such mod.

Wow, missed alot of post.

Thanks for butting in Glen.

Phil I plan on road racing the car and beating the crap out of it. (In a spirited kind of way ;))

Cool, I guess than you need what Glen did..

See there we go . Phill now you have the info you wanted and i dont have to give up out propreitary numbers to explain myself, basic idea is the same yet our numbers are different

I have to say phill that I disagree with your builder. I cleanrece all of the rotors we use in engines that we build.

There is no risk in having it, only a risk in not having it if you are running more power than stock.

This is my professional opinion.


Basically you have a rotor that has clearence for operating in what the stock form was engineered for. By increasing combustion pressure you are going to move the rotors back and for more often and with more force risking the rotor touching the side plates....

Glen,

So, why is it that you now want to discuss this when earlier today you didn't??

When I first asked, I wasn't asking you to provide with exact number that you are shaving.. i was mearly asking what you meant by increasing the clearance of the rotor as I wasn't sure what you meant by that..

Regarding to your professional disagreement with my builder..., I'm a firm believe of 30+ years of experience and his ability to do many things at the same time hiding from general population. For years, he did not want to build anyone's engine and asked me not to give out his number. Its just recently he decided to build engines as his children are older and now wanting to get back to rotary. He also pointed out to me things that I never noticed before during my research and his explaination made sense vs. no explanation or BS reasons people like to feed.

Regarding his detail reasoning why he doesn't think its necessary for street driven car is I guess same reason or similar reason as why you would shave it in the first place. Also, if you truly believe its necessary then why wouldn't mazda do it in the first place..

Clearancing the rotors is a definate when you are running high HP applications. Its not just needed for the sides, its also needed on the combustion faces of the rotor. When there is e shaft flex you want the rotors to have enough clearance so that the rotating assembly doesn't have any contact with the stationary housings. When there is contact, it gauls up seal grooves and also causes bearing failure. People do it differently and there is more than 1 way to do it.

I have a process of clearencing that is ours ...the basic idea has been know for years and years .

Mazda does do it....If you buy rotors brand new from mazda they have a clearence. It is better to increase it ...I stated that before. You were asking me to give you details on what we do this is not for the public this is some of the things that gives us our edge.

If you read what I said phill....you would have seen clearly that I stated we increase the clearence that was already there from mazda do to increasing horse power.....

Also. let me be clear Mazda clearenced these for a certain output of a 1.3l engine some from 100 to 255 and yes the rotor "clearence" increase as the output does from the factory, Phill......

What people need to remeber we are taking this 13b were it was never ment to go.... 1.3l puting out 500hp ...250hp per rotor (no its not that exact)....

So I believe if you are building an engine for higher hourse power you need to compesate for the increase in power.

Phill, I dont know who your builder is but I have to say I know hacks that have been doing this for 40years and I know poeple that are ungodly good that have been doing it for a short amount of time so 30years does not mean much to me. When some one says not to do it in street cars are they saying stock .... This is why i disagree with this guy becuase from what you said he said it is not good for the street and you have to be careful doing.....This is just not true, you can go to far with the clearencing but if you have it done by someone that knows what they are doing it is not an issue at all to have it and can not be bad no side eefects like in porting something to big and a side seal could drop etc.


Look I believe that clearencing is something that everyone should do increasing horse power I have seen the effects of not having it in high horse power applications some survie some dont and I am in the business of all staying alive my company and reputation demand it


Ok ....so Phil so far nothing I have said give my process away from they way you cam across you wanted me to give specific details to what we do I am not going to do that. I am in business to be the best and I am going to keep it in our bag of tricks that make us one of the top builders.

LOL! Glen, if you go back and read what I asked, I was asking what clearance you were talking about as it was very general statement. I think it could of been simpler if you would of been bit more specific to what clearance instead of sayind its proprietary.

It wasn't until I posted what Racing beat consider clearance and their recommendation is when you became more involved in explanation..

WOW Glen, Did you even read my initial question??

Here it goes, read it again..

So, was I asking for specific spec's to how you 'cleanrences' the rotors?? Before you telling me to go back and read, you should see what I was asking. I understand that you have specific way of clearance the rotors and I was asking what you are clearancing. Simple question which you NOW have explained over and over after I posted what I thought you meant by clearance need to be increased (from RB's info about clearance of rotor).

Regarding your statement about my builders, I could say the same about pretty much every builder out there.. Including yourself.

And finally, Let me point it out to you again..

Glen, if you read what I stated before, I said it is NOT necessary. You do know what that means right?? It means NOT ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL! Which means, its not required, ie, many many engines that have stock internals that have lasted thousands of miles without having this clearancing done.

Hey Phil.

If you look at his picture of the rotors, you can see that the sides of the rotors have been ground. Grinding is the most true surface you can get. It looks like he did a good job on the machine work. We do not know how much material was removed.

The rotor housings are 80mm wide and the rotors have a slightly smaller width. If there is more torqe on the tension bolts, it can cause the tolerance between the rotors and the irons to be tighter. If there is too much material taken off the rotors during this clearancing process, there is going to be a problem with too much area of the side seals seeing combustion. Side seals, when they fail, usually anything it touches gets destroyed.

I know that Louis does a very good job on his grinding work. To be honest he is the best I have ever seen. I have gotten brand new irons from mazda that didn't look as nice as his lapped irons. I don't know much about his engine building skills, but if he does that kind of lapping work, I would trust him to build my engines. I am a do it all myself kind of guy too :D.

I have never clearanced rotors for any of my personal engines. I have made 435 RWHP on one and 440 RWHP on the other. The 435 car spun a bearing after 50K miles which is due to lack of oilmaintenance. The other is in my 1st gen which is still kickin it. I guess the true test will be done when the T72 goes on with the custom upper manifold....

Phill, wtf do you want ...You asked I gave you what you asked for


Anyway dude I have said what I am going to say....I am done with this conversation. I hope people get something out of it....

The rotors don't move side to side during flex. They are boxed in and float on the eshaft. When flex occurs the rotor is being tilted with the eshaft that deflects with the load that is being put on it. If anything contacts the irons, it is the corners of the rotor.

Yes they do ....Read "rotary engine" by the man (Kenichi Yamamoto) that designed mazdas rotaries...It states the fact very clearly....


Deformation of the shaft will also "tilt" the rotors this is true.

Phill I am still not telling you what we do ....the fact is racing beat give the general idea...I said this

I feel it would have been wrong to quote racing beat or even Mazdatrix becuase they do something very different than what we do. Yet this is the same Idea we just go about it differently and this is not something I want to share.


Why are you trying to make this personal ....I mean dude i have bent over backwards to help you guys when you needed it I have supported your forum but you attack me ....

no now I have to get in an argument with others that "clearly " using this is an opportunity to look good ...I was trying to help educate enthusists not my competitors.

rotors float on oil and also float on compression seals and springs. The only way for them to hit is from the shaft flexing or improper rotor bearing clearance. If that shaft stayed strait, you wouldn't have any problems with them bumping.

I am not trying to ruin your reputation or anything or get on your bad side. I love building engines as well and have built a ton of them. I like finding solutions to problems and fully understanding what everything does. There is always something someone can teach ya no matter how many years you do something. I just figured I would chime in and say a few things...

Bryan@BNR

Again read the book.......

Yes the rotors from combustion can and do move side to side.....

The fact is your are making a statement that is not true.

Yes deformation is the main issue with the rotors not having enough clearence . Once the combustion pressure becomes overwelhming the rotors with get pushed from side to side. These are thign kenichi points out and developed cleanrece to avoid. Remeber we are talking an increase of at least 25% and above

A little of subject here.... But sometimes I wonder if all the changes some builders make cause more harm. No builders specific here I speak of but I have scene many engines fail from some of these mods. From improper ports to adding over sized studs-dowels... I speced my current motor-build but decided not to have the rotors ground as they seemed close enough. I only wish I had did more reasearch on the rotor faces for high HP clearence.

My reason I state this as I have scene many motors on here lately some even stock (ports-everything) making sick power and out lasting some high dollar built ones. Mine was built from used housings and plates, rotors, no laping or grinding, no oil mods, no extra studs or dowels, center section balanced by Luis, all oem parts except ALS seals..making 617rwhp. Have 6500 miles so far and many drag passes. Not sure how long I expect to see it last with running it how I do. I believe having everything right from wiring, tune, fuel system plays a larger roll than some of these special engine mods made.. Just my thought..

Ok back on subject.....

I agree with you Mike....... That is basiclly the point I was trying to make ..I am about as articulate as a 3 years old on acid...


Let me go back to the rotors hittting the walls.

1. yes shaft deformation is a main casuse .
2. you have to understand that when this engine gets "sandwitched together compressing the seals to a "stroke heighth" that is very small. Yes this is to keep the rotors "floating" but at high combustion it is easy to push the rotor side to side.

So, yes they can hit the plates with out having a bent shaft.


Mike, having clearnce rotors is an insurance policy I have seen engines make tons of power and then snap ...they have a bent shaft and the rotors have smacked the plates and it rebuild time ....rebuilt with clearnced rotors and they are making the same power yet lasting longer.

Rotor clearnce is not going to help much if you have a bad build or tuning wiring etc...It all has to come together to be right.

Mike....600 club, congrats dude I did not know you got that far.

Glen. Don't always believe what you read!!! HAHA

From the man That designed it ...No why would I believe him ....Oh and I have seen it on an engine dyno myself under testing with yaw serveral times come on man ....

You have nothing to back up your statement... If so lets hear it

Hold on let me go get my ASE certified Rotary Bible. :D

Thanks Glen...

Glen.

I have taken apart 100's or rotary engines. That being said. I have never, ever seen a rotor make FLAT contact with the irons UNLESS it was so overheated the irons swelled so much that they made full contact with the rotors. The times that I did see rotor to iron contact (with no overheating, rotor or main bearing clearance issues), it was when the rotor tips made contact with the irons. That means the rotor journals weren't perpedicular anymore to the end plates. The rotor is going to go in the direction of the shaft lobe.

Glennn,

Thanks for the favor of explaining clearancing the rotor after pretty much I explained what it is after posting the RB article. What you did was not answer it in the beginning and pretty much said it was some top secret stuff you did to the rotors. Again, read what I've posted.

Jesus! Do you still think I give a damn if you gave me the detail specs or not?? Please read over.... as I NEVER ASKED FOR A SPECIFICS OF YOUR CLEARANCING YOUR ROTORS!!! I asked What Do you Clearance!! That's what I asked in the beginning.

The point is this. I think maybe you are going bit too far with this propreitary, secret stuff. I don't know if this is a marketing strategy or what not, but every builder has their own little way they do things. Is it proprietary as you speak?? Sure, I guess its their little secret of how they do things. But at this point, all I saw from you is slight arrogance that so called clearancing the rotor is essential/MUST for all rotors. Even though thousands of stock motors never got your so called clearancing have made tens of thousands of miles without it. So statistically, I and my builder's statement about how its NOT necessary is a CORRECT statement!!

I do appreciate you coming on here and supported the forum. But you should also see it as two way street. You might feel that you been helping me, but I also see it as I been helping you. Hell, even this thread as it seems like its gotten to be a pretty popular thread.

Second part of the quote above, I'm not sure.. Who do you think is using this 'opportunity to look good'?? I think at this point we are all having a conversation and clearancing the rotor isn't something that you came up with and you are not sharing specific measurements so I don't see how others are using this opportunity to make themselves look good?? **Before you state again that I'm asking you for your specific NUMBER.. I AM NOT!!!**

And finally, let me state to the public that I have nothing against you. I was bit irritated when you kind of blew me off and keep stating that its propreitary stuff. (By the way, proprietary in my mind is something brand new ie new technology or technique and I don't think you actually developed clearancing, you just have a specific amount you take off.) And after that, I think its you who mis-read what I've posted after that cause you to also attack me.. But I wouldn't really call it attack. Either case, Hope no hard feelings.. Just wanted to make sure you understood. Again, I am NOT asking for specific numbers :)

Personally, and this is my personal opinion (NOT PROFESSIONAL) I don't think it makes much difference to me as I have no intention of racing nor would I break down a stock motor to just get clearancing. If I was to build a motor that spin 10K for extended amounts of time than i would probably do so, whom I would get it done, I would consider Glen.

That's interesting Bryan. So statically you have seen 0 out of 100+ engine failure you've seen that was caused by rotor clearance issue?

I'm going to call Luis and see how many he has seen... I'm just curious..

I just got off the phone with Luis and asked him how many engines he has seen where clearancing was an issue.

He stated that he has seen about 8 race engines that was caused by clearance issue. And about 2 street driven car because of the issue. That's close to 30 years of him building engines... I'm guessing well over 300 engines? He didn't know exactly how many engine he broke down.

He also emphasized that 2 street driven cars were because the owners were revving beyond 8K as they were driven 'the hell out of those cars'. He also made a point to me that its very uncommon for engine that followed stock spec clearance will have issues when used on street. Also, he said its "waste of money" to do it on a street car as its NOT necessary.