EFR Internal Waste-Gate Discussion
 

I thought a few of you guys might be interested in some of the latest on the BorgWarner EFR turbochargers, especially the viability of the internal waste-gate turbine housings. The 7670 and 8374 are pretty well suited for most 2 rotor applications. The 7670 is particularly nice for a sub 400rwhp car looking for ultra fast response, and the 8374 for the 500~ish rwhp cars. Anyhow here is part 1 of the 7 EFR turbo systems we are building( some we are also tuning in house too).

http://blog.turbosource.com/2013/11/...rotary-engine/

What kind of response are we looking at with the 7670? Equal or better than sequential bnr stage 3s?

All this does is make turbo exhaust manifold design and building easier...
If these turbos take off for 13B applications, I see a whole lot of simpler turbo exhaust manifolds being offered in the near future; it's going to be pretty easy to design and build something with just two runners versus every piston engine turbo exhaust manifold.


-Ted

One owner has reported 1 bar by 2200rpms using the 7670 on his 2 rotor.

^Pretty sure you're referring to me lol.

I have the EFR 7670 with two Tial 38mm external gates, one on each runner, with a short runner manifold. I had the runners built as short as possible out of 321 stainless. This turbo has RIDICULOUS spool. Mine starts around 2k rpm, and I'd say reaching full boost by about 3300-3500. The problem is I haven't been on an actual dyno yet to get any info, and I've had this turbo on since early last year. It also sounds like a jet engine, but that's just an added bonus lol. Anyway, the only thing I've done is virtual dyno, and I'm not sure how much stock I put in that. Supposedly it's within 5% accurate, but having not been on an actual dyno yet, I couldn't tell you for sure. And since all dynos read differently, I'm not sure it would make much difference anyway. All I know is if you want response similar to stock twins but more top end, the 7670 is perfect. I can't speak to the 8374, but I was thinking of possibly stepping up to that one next time. I wouldn't say for sure you can't break 400whp with the 7670. I'm at 6000 ft altitude and I'm already pretty close to 400 (according to the virtual dyno anyway), and we lose quite a bit of HP up here. Although the spool is so fast and strong that I have to turn down the duty cycle on the boost controller in the first couple gears, and a little in third gear, or I'll spin all the way through. That's why I was thinking about going with the 8374 next time. I imagine it spools just not quite as fast but probably pretty close, but will still get you more whp. Here are some pics of the when I was installing everything.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/7bb03449.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/66110248.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/797e3657.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/33afbdde.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/0e4a1d56.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/e513ac01.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/af66e3ed.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/6a9de6e4.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/a610741c.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/4ee97881.jpg

My concern with internal gated housings is if there will be enough room between the engine and firewall/strut tower. I'm already pretty close with my external gated housing, but part of that can be manipulated with the manifold of course.

More pics...
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/4d7e4d36.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/5e974c1e.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/b6a0207f.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/f161991b.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/88459d09.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/74995e43.jpg

This is something that really bugs me. My manifold came out with a 5 degree forward slant, although this pic makes it look worse than it is.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/f6140442.jpg

Here's how it turned out before I powdercoated everything black.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/15aa34a1.jpg

A couple problems I ran into were oil drain and coolant feed and return. For the coolant feed and return I had to go with a banjo fitting on both sides, and one side needed to be angled.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/ece15e54.jpg

This is what the turbo drain needed, to be modified to angle out as soon as possible to avoid the line contacting the turbine housing at the flange.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...3/18e029a3.jpg

Both of those problems could probably also been managed a little better with a different manifold too.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ps544c00c1.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...21CD81397E.jpg

I am very interested in this as well. When I make the switch to single I am planning on going this route. It solves the issue of having to reroute the waste gates which for me is a must.

Speedjunkie, do you have any shots showing how close the exhaust housing is to the LIM? Maybe one looking straight down on it?

I don't think so but I'll take a pic for you.

Turblown, who wrote that article?

Sounds like he did.


-Ted

An properly sized single with a good (re:LARGE) exhaust will out perform the sequentials in terms of TORQUE response, not boost response.... I wish I had access to my old dyno charts, the torque comes up faster and lasts longer with my single (Turblown GT35R Stg V with a billet wheel, 1.0 a/r exhaust) but I also fabricated an equal length extremely short runner Mani with dual TiAL MVS gates and a 4" exhaust that splits into two three inch sections back to the bumpers. If you want boost response, nothing is going to equal what is basically a GT28 but if you want torque response.... A properly sized single built and tuned properly will outperform the twins..... Sooooooo do you want to see a boost gauge going crazy, or do you want to put torque out? I would prefer to make power, not just crazy boost.
In terms of numbers, at 2500rpms I could see 17psi with my old BNR's, with the Stg V I'll see > 10 psi, however, at less boost I'll make more power. Most of it has to do with EMAP and how efficient everything is. At 10psi on the BNR's I would see about 15psi of EMAP, by 14.5 psi of boost I was seeing 29psi of EMAP and I was making ~378RWHP. By comparison with the GT35R STG V, at 14 psi I see ~ 15 psi of EMAP, and I was making 405 RWHP with more in there given more tuning.... I spent 45 minutes tuning that car the morning we left for DGRR. So, here's the thing, think of an engine as an airpump, boost ( MAP) goes in, EMAP comes out. MAP/EMAP = efficiency, which setup is more efficient?

And Eric's car is fucking sexy, love that sled. I though you were running the internally gated BW though?

This really making me rethink my setup... Sadly.

I love the idea of keeping my 95 FD with sequential twins for nostalgia's sake. But this sounds like it would suit my driving better...

Who knows. I'll probably just stick with what I have for now, finish the build with twins. And if I don't like it, then switch over. The only additional expense I'll have to deal with that I haven't already bought and paid for is the solenoid set for controlling the twins.

has anyone actually put one of these on a rotary yet?

i would absolutely love to ditch my water cooled dual wastegate setup and go with an internal gate, but only if it can waste enough exhaust to allow me to run low boost (10-12psi).

i have turblown's dual wastegate manifold on my car with both wastegates recirculated, with water lines running to/between/from the wastegates back to the engine, and 7 vband connections that don't seal perfectly (yes, 7 vbands) and two air lines running to each wastegate.

i dread even thinking about removing my downpipe.

i would love to switch to this EFR turbo and run 1 air line, 1 vband, and add 2 water lines for the turbo...

John, pics as requested. Also, I have my LIM spaced out a bit, probably 1/8", because my fuel rails will press against each other if I don't. So take that into consideration. Kind of a fisheye thing going on with these pics. I had to take them with my GoPro because my iPhone is perpetually full and won't let me take pics lol.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ps7fbf6255.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ps025274a2.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...ps6e80fd7c.jpg

Thanks Brian! No, I was afraid of not having enough room between the LIM and strut tower for the added space the internal WG one needs. Also, I wasn't sure if the internal gate would be big enough.

I want to reroute my wastegates into the DP, but I dread the thought of doing the work and also what it will take to remove everything. Ugh lol. I also plan to water cool my wastegates at some point as well. If someone installs an internal gate 7670 or 8374 I'll probably switch to that for the same reason.

I will say though, it's so nice blowing out someone's ear drums with my gates pointed straight at the ground when I pass them at WOT after they piss me off LOL.

The next question is... how much?

Hate to be pedantic but the acronym M.A.P. is short for Manifold Absolute Pressure, I am guessing the figures spoke about here are GAUGE PRESSURE (and not) Absolute pressure, so please if we can talk in absolute units for sake of comparisons.

Turbine Inlet Absolute Pressure (T.I.A.P)
&
Intake Manifold Pressure (M.A.P)

And list it as an absolute please, as its confusing and annoying :) and no one has any idea if you are at seal level or in Tibet or what the actual figures are LOL.

M.A.P. is not '15psi' cause that means its like 0.3psi boost at sea level on a std'ish day lol........... and 'EMAP' that is just a stupid convict expression not meaning anything to anyone LOL.

If we insist on using gauge imperial units and at gauge readings then please use the correct references.

manifold gauge pressure = m.g.p (psi)
turbine inlet gauge pressure = t.i.g.p (psi)
and then list the ambient pressure you got those readings at :)

OR simply use absolute units as its much easier understand!!!! and compare.

Thanks. :biggthumpup:

I know what you're getting @ Peter... and I agree with you..... but if I said @ 29psi MAP I made blah blah.... it would start a shit storm.... perhaps to prove my point though I should say with the twins @ 14.5psi boost pressure, I had 42.5psi EMAP :biggrinjester:

Well, now I have to sell my brand new (with the upgraded compressor wheels) bnr stage 3 twins along with my dual egt stock mani and modified efini y pipe and crossover pipe. I wonder how much I can get for a package deal.


I am thinking about the 7670 very seriously, especially if I can get it in T4 divided manifold, .92 a/r, internally gated.... and assuming I can get it to fit in there on a short manifold.

But alas, working construction means I am again... unemployed... through the winter. So I have to sell enough stuff to cover any new purchases.

Damn you all.

so, no one has put an internal gated EFR turbo on a rotary yet?

^I know there were a couple other guys on 7club that were getting them, but I'm not sure if they ever got them (theirs were back ordered because they were larger) and I'm not sure if they got internal or external gate.

Jacob, Dan Chadwick is running an iwg one. He is in Smyrna, but generally isn't on the forum or car scene much anymore due to his workload and travel schedule with work.

REALLY.....

interesting. do you know which one? i would love to get some more info.

see if you can coerce him into posting in this thread, brent :)

Wasn't Chadwick the guy running a smaller turbo so he had crazy low end power for autocrossing?

I just confirmed the 7670 .92 IWG will fit a LHD FD. I am in the process of building a manifold for a car in house that we will be tuning with this setup. Unfortunately I have to finish the engine build( and there are 3 engines in-front of this one). We are sending out an 8374 IWG kit shortly to a customer in Canada, and I will stay on him for results. I am stressing another customer to use the IWG on his 8374 car( that I will also be tuning) to get some faster results. I also offered to swap him housings if it doesn't, and a free tune etc to sweeten the pot...

Will it fit RHD with a stupid short manifold?

What province is the 8374 kit going too if you don't mind me asking, is it RHD too?

Thanks...

J.

8374 .92 I don't think he'll be posting here as he generally travels and works too much to get on the car forums much anymore. He's had it installed for probably 6 or 7 months now.


He previously ran 99spec twins. Yes, it is an autoX car.

elliot, can you at least post some pictures of that canada IWG 8374 kit when you get to it? i am very interested in this just for the simplification, and that 8374 seems to be a decent size, barely bigger than my 6262.

i gotta say, i was not impressed with rickshaw's dyno video/numbers, but i didn't see much info on his setup, just that he was using an IWG 8374

I just got back from Philip Island GP circuit (3 hours ago) and its not his dyno problem, its a Ric Shaw problem?, his cars are gutless! Today was his turbo RX8 and it had rings run around it by a rival FD3S (this was a one 'hour endurance' race).

Nice enough bloke, but the car is weak on power in reality out on the track, very weak. So you have every right be left un impressed, on track the case is even worse, that was the reality I witnessed today. There was also a similar FD (looked like a road car!) running in sports sedans (top class) and it had on visual point to point analysis about 100bhp more than RIc Shaw runs as he sets up his car.

p.s. both of these other FD's ran with T04Z on 1.15 housings, and the one in the sports car enduro was running E50 blend *I spoke personally with the car preparer UNIgroup engineering* (to get the milage for the cumpulsary driver change and fuel stop)... he won his class and even beat a lambo gelato, went all weekend like a trojan!

fast and powerful and durable.... it can be done

Forgot to add, both these FD3S's accelerated as hard as the Lambo Gelato and the Ferrari 458 GT3 (both around ~600bhp cars).

The FD3S that ran rings around Rics RX8 is at a class mandated limit of 1350kg, running a holigner gearbox (stuffed into and around the stock FD3S gear box casing to remain within the rules!)... and they actually run limited power (said was around 400rwkw) as they have a power to weight parity formula.

Anyway just putting in some context behind just the 'dyno sheet mentality' like I was talking with the IPRA winning RX7 team just before the final race, the BS stops when you get out your stop watch and measure just how fast a car is at the end of the straight!!!!!!! that shit you can not make up or hide :9898: you are either powerful or not, end of story, and lots are powerful and durable.

No special gizz spec internet whore spammed latest turbo craze required............ Ironic ? no not really, its always been the same! Moral go to a track, talk to cuuuuuunts who do this and see what works, it's pretty simple. Not saying this turbo is shit either, just its maybe not being given the best chance, IMHO his car did nothing at WTAC either especially after being hyped up and excuses given for 'lower reading dyno' :rofl: maybe it just makes fuck all power, and its not as if todays race was a 12 hour race nor was WTAC either... so same track same competitors same rules and his was the slowest rotary around (turbo'd) those are the facts as I witnessed them.

Qualifying Results
Massel FD3S (2 seconds a lap faster) v's RS RX8
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6358719...920.88Y/View?5

In the actual race (it was 3 second a lap slower)
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6358719...20.88Y/View?28

IPRA winner (great little car and top people owning and running it!)
This is a 1st Gen RX7 that weighs in at 950kg and makes a whopping 174rwkw!
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6358719...20.88Y/View?32

Ric isn't real concerned with making a lot of power, his first priority is reliability. I know he requests the engines be tuned very safe, and is probably running considerable less boost than most of the competition. Don't get me wrong I know there are some areas for improvements on his cars, but everyone has different priorities.

Back to the EFR stuff.... I am pretty sure an IWG EFR will not fit a RHD car, but I will double check when I get a chance( been swamped). I did notice that the 7670 IWG( only one that I can see fitting down low, as it runs a much smaller compressor cover than the 8374 or 9180), will require a custom waste-gate actuator bracket, as BW doesn't allow full 360 clocking off the unit.

P.S. Nate I will call you back tomorrow.

This shouldn't be too much of an issue. If(when) Linder Power Systems comes up with a good solution, maybe he can make a few for you. Chances are he will make them all snazzy and sexylike. But much like all my projects, That one will be a long ways off, and you'll probably already have a solution by that time.

Don't worry Elliot, I'll be waiting by my phone like a giddy high school girl.

I'm thinking for my future single setup of going with a manifold much like Rice's short as possible but utilizing the IWG BW to keep things simple, less potential failure points and compact, one issue will be that my car is RHD, but i think ifI got the compressor in hand and had a manifold locally built, I *think* (or rather, want to think) it can be done...


J.

Without wanting to read like HC!

Flow priority is far more important than shortness of pipes. The BIG problem you have with short manifolds is heat, fitment, durability.......... nothing dies faster than a short manifold and its allot more stressed than a longer one I find.

The turbine entry flanges do not last very long, especially on a divided unit, they warp and the center section gets eaten away and good luck keeping a gasket alive long term there too.

On turbo rotaries for a while now I have not bothered with divided entry turbine housings 1) they are not durable 2) they are a nightmare to keep a gasket up too 3) they are not really needed much for turbine response 4) they are way too heavy!

For rotaries the single entry Tial turbine housing is the only thing that is durable and will last I have found.

What's your definition of durable? Like holds up well for people beating the shit out of their cars every weekend at the track? Outlasts the engine? Lives through a few oil changes?

People's definitions are very different especially on the internet.

The problem with turbo rotaries used in road cars is if it is set up to be efficient then it will run a high exhaust gas temperature. When you run it at 0.9 Lambda say and at a constant 100kmh you will see a high temperature and as a result the exhaust parts start to eat them selves (as you see on any turbo rotary)... ever seen what a FD3S turbo manifold looks like? Basically after 50,000km road use only these parts are scrap.

On a single turbo I have never seen any manifold last more than 30,000km (or 15+ BDC and HC engine rebuilds!). These effects get compounded if you do any sort of real power utilization (say 2% duty) at full load and power.

If you add power to the equation then its even worse as the effects are worse, high temperature combined with high pressure and cycling of temperature from high to low, pre load on the metal gasket diminishes over time then they get eaten along with the mating flange surfaces = in the end a fucking nightmare. The only things that work are gasket less, while they are not perfect they are 'durable'.

I got sick and tired of resurfacing all types of manifolds (machining is my profession among many!) and seeing all of this shit over the years. This is why rotaries are fucked! the same problem occurs in piston cars but the time is about triple to the time of failure!

p.s. most people never talk about this cause they NEVER have owned them long enough or had an engine last that long LOL....... it is an issue, I'm sure I am not the only one to experience it ;)

We've got these in divided also, but I almost always run an open volute gasket, even on twin scroll turbo systems;

http://www.turblown.net/store/index.php?productID=80

Dyno this weekend!

More info/pixs etc;

http://www.turbosource.com/BorgWarne...ts-fd3siwg.htm

I think this is the key here ;)

Love it... interested to see some numbers Elliot. What turbo is it again?

http://cdn3.volusion.com/wpyhq.jsayd...jpg?1395324100