BNR stage 3's (470whp 400tq)
 

I haven't had a had chance to completely dial in my tune since I fitted the 4" thick ETS front mount, AEM coils, and external wastegate but I had a chance to dyno the car on Slow Motion Motorsports Dynapack (which is the same dynapack Logan at Defined tunes on). Needless to say; was happy with the results but I know there's still more in it as I was only running 19psi for this pull. I was getting breakup at high RPM as it's still too rich up top but I was still able to get the peak power and torque numbers before it started to breakup at high RPM.

Here's the link to the original thread from when I broke the BNR record which has more details about the build.http://www.rx7club.com/time-slips-dy...record-971246/

If you're curious about the external wastegate on the stock frame turbos here's that thread as well.
http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generatio...-done-1000553/

Time to update this part of your website :-)
"The BNR Stage 3's have the world record on most RWHP made off bolt up hybrid turbochargers for the RX7! 426 RWHP and 365 RWTQ was made at 18 psi of boost! "

http://i.imgur.com/H7keMLSl.jpg

Curious to what your EGT's and EMAP was.
what are you running for an ECU?
Pump or race gas?
timing and AFRS @ peak TQ?

Curious to what your EGT's and EMAP was.
what are you running for an ECU?
Pump or race gas?
timing and AFRS @ peak TQ?

No idea on EGT's and EMAP.
Power FC
Pump gas with water injection 70/30 water/meth
11advance and around 11.0:1 at peak TQ

Not to be a dick...... but that's quite brave not knowing those two pieces of information when tuning like that....

I would be VERY curious to know what EMAP is and how that external WG dropped it... more importantly - EGT's.

I took my BNR's to under 1B of boost and netted 385wheel in a 3rd gear run on a 6 spd... probably would've been well into the 400's with a 1:1 tranny and stopped tuning there.... EGT's were climbing to 1750 and EMAP was above 2B.... totally ineffiecient.

And not the most obvious question...... with a torque curve like that.... why not go single?

.

I'd love to see this car on a Dyno Dynamics or Superflow dyno. I have yet to see an accurate run on a Dynapack, they're always inflated. Not knocking you OP, in either case impressive numbers for BNRs.

When you test them in real life, like in a car and see how fast they accelerate then you truly know how much power you have :)

Do you have access to a VBOX? I can share heaps of twins cars (BNR's, RF420's, other custom units and stock at up to 1.5bar boost) I have tested and they are MUCH slower irrespective of dyno types used to get the numbers. Check out my web page under VBOX testing and dyno dreams.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-ii...ing-tuning.htm < *see where you fit here* see real VBOX power @ wheels and I call dyno dynamics BS machines LOL as they give inflated numbers LOL

Do a simple test of your car in 3rd gear from 90kmh to 140kmh and let me know how fast it is. Lets add it to the FAST FD thread :)
You will be around 3.2 to 3.4 second range is my guess single turbo on lower boost is under 3 seconds as per TTT's comments. and really fast cars are cracking 2 second barrier.with same 470rwhp LOL but its real power based of physics! not dyno guesses with mythical factors in software code :)

FAST FD thread >>>>> http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ad.php?t=14704

I like your project too :) (just read the thread on the external gate mod)

It is the reason why I never went to do it after trying so many vendors twins run in parallel ........... the boost curve and matching torque is always poor.

By example my 82mm compressor 1400bhp capable turbo spools faster and earlier than your twins :) but it is not as cool LOL.......... I think that is what TTT is getting at with his single comments.

The BNR's I tested showed the same power band as you have found and its roughly line ball with a ball bearing GT28 cartridges run in the twins frame in parallel. Just a poor set up really but if you want to do it then its your car :) and everyone is different.

Will be good if you can test it and we can see how fast it is

90kmh to 140kmh in 3rd
100kmh to 200kmh (3rd to 4th) and lets see some numbers

I'll see if I can get my hands on a V-Box to get numbers. As for the dyno number, on BNR's website the power numbers they list are from GoodfellaFD3s when he ran them, and he did it on a Dynapak. This Dynapak is the same Dynapak that Logan at Defined tunes on, so if my numbers are BS; then so are the numbers he makes on his N/A 3-rotor.

As for why I haven't gone single, for the same reason that I tune rotary's, it's different and it's unexplored territory. I will go single one of these days, but until then I want to see what is possible with the stock frame turbos.

Thanks for all the compliments!

I believe what Rice is saying is that using a dyno to rate the performance of your car is ill conceived as each dyno reads a bit differently (even between same manufactures) and it is not accurately comparable. Dyno's are primarily a tuning tool regardless of how the masses actually use them.

Using a V-Box or similar GPS based performance meter you can accurately measure the rate of acceleration of your car. This can then be directly compared to the measured figures of other cars to give you a good baseline of the performance of your car. Granted, doing this correctly is slightly more difficult than strapping your car down to a dyno because you will likely be breaking any posted speed limits and you need a flat stretch of clear road.

Truff.... I need to find a VBox.... I believe a poster or 2 in this thread have one....

I like it as well... I've said for years that the turbo's are capable, but the mani and the plumbing are what really hold them back.... then again, I'm logging EMAP and the individual compressor outputs and pre-intercooler AIT's... I'm not just guess :001_005:

Basically exactely what I'm getting at....

That....

In that case.... go for it! Personally I got tired of replacing cartridges 2-4 times a year so I gave up with the twin idea... on the stock mani :suspect:

THAT..... although... I've been "street tuning" my car for years now... there are certain places you cannot get to on a dyno, and certain places you can't get to on the street....

John, you and Dan have a VBox correct? That's not the box I used @ Lightning that day is it?

I've been looking more into EMap since your suggestion and have found conflicting advice. What sensor/method do you recommend in order to best log EMAP?

Grats man!!!!... is it going to be at the B3R dyno day?

I use a standard GM 3B MAP sensor with 2' of SS -3hardline and some -3 braided line to shed the heat. I also have a pretty trick billet mount with an o-ring seal and 1/8" NPT threads

VBOX em boys, send me the file, and I will run a rwhp/rwkw power channel and tell you what grunt it has, and we can compare the times (and add them to the list!) to ones in the FAST FD thread :)

With 470rwhp you have to be quicker than a Ferrari F40, which I have personally VBOX tested :) and corner weight tested too :)

We have a car with ~470rwhp on a mustang dyno with single in there SMG944? who is quicker than a F40 100kmh to 200kmh

Yeah, I plan to run it at their dyno day.

THIS! Im about to jump ship from the twins myself... Just lost another cartridge and I have not even done a track day yet this season. I had the twins on and off about 8 times last year (for various reasons), not sure if I can bring myself to do it again.

I have completely tuned my car on the street, however I REALLY want to get onto a load dyno to do some steady state tuning. BTW, my ECU setup has changed a bit since we last spoke.

Correct, and it is the same one you used. We have a Racelogic Performance Box. It is made by the same company as the V-Box, but is less expensive than a full blown V-Box. Great for track days and acceleration tests.
http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en/our-products

As another option, you could get the GPS unit for your AIM dash and it will accomplish the same thing. However you cant transfer that between cars.

It brings back many memories for me, but I just want to stab some cuuunt really. The twins are the worst of both worlds, poor reliability and crap power band LOL.

I still need to get my twins to Bryan for a rebuild under warranty....

We should chat... are you back in PA John?

I've thought about that as well... I need to talk to AIM about a few other things as well.... Peter, would you be able to make the same calculations using the AIM data?

Well.... 20 years ago....

So far as a power calculation no, I wont release my formula to people but I am happy to run a maths channel on VBOX .vbo or .dbn (perf box) files, these cheaper ones are inexpensive really and are the testing standard ........... everyone should own one :)

Never any dispute with information you record off one of these instruments.

Some of the other vendors equivalent 10hz GPS add on's are a joke when you look at the update rate and quality of speed trace they give, I would not trust them personally.

The VBOX (Performance box branded) ghetto units I have tested parallel to my old VBOX III and also my new VBOX 3i and they are bang on .......... it's what you want mate.

Thanks Peter..... So I guess the question to John is, does your unit output that type of file?

Yes it will, I have done many calcs for people with perf box units (.dbn) and people with vbox units (.vbo)

smg944 has a perf box or drift box cant remember and I ran his files as above.

The Performance box outputs .dbn files as Peter mentioned. I have already sent Peter one file to add to his list (Dan's car). I have been meaning to test my car, but never remember to stick the box in the car unless its a track day.

Actually, now that I think about it some of my track day files might have acceptable data to grab acceleration runs from. I will have to dig.

Rice, what is your opinion on the VBOX mini? Not looking to break the bank here but I definitely need to buy one of these for future tuning purposes.

Also Rice, what is your opinion on my wastegate mod? It seems to work great at holding the boost but I just wanted your opinion in case I overlooked something.

I started out with a vbox mini, it is a great unit, I combine it with a mim01 (mini input module) to log variables on various test cars.

I just bought the same set up for the institute where I teach, it was around $3250 or so (will take a photo next week of the set up @ work) the only real difference to the performance box drift box option and micro input module, is you can input in EGT probes, more channels and the use of VBOX tools software (if you seriously test etc) and the mim01 is a quality unit that you can use with any other VBOX product later on if you upgrade.

Race logic make a tonne of stuff, but the beauty of the vbox mini and lower spec derivatives is they are self contained, robust designs, they can be transferred between cars, and see the results instantly etc, great for impromptu highway drags :) or track tests etc etc.

We use ours for brake testing, power testing, data logging, circuit testing predictive lap timing etc.... it is real handy and real easy to use.




Your WG mods look good to me :iagree:

http://www.velocitybox.co.uk/index.p...vbox-mini.html

^ No more need for a drag track :)
No more need for a dyno either :)

hell do not even need integrated logging! (this is how I tuned the ND4SPD Capella on my web site with this instrument and my Autronic B Model AFR meter, on garbage ghetto microwreck ECU lol. Note how flat the AFR curve is on the dyno at Summernats dyno competition when it went there :) to this day no one has ever made so much power consistently on a true street car that runs on proper common fuel :) *and it was never tuned for 'power' on a dyno just road tuning on the VBOX* :)
All with the power of VBOX mini. You will see stacks of info on my web page on the water injection page with a VBOX min data log of that car.
http://www.riceracing.com.au/Photos/WI%20numbers.jpg

It's a top little unit.... highly recommend it.
For tuning I have a quick simple harness where you can back probe certain signals, fit up your own map sensor or various sensors and away you go, it is very simple and quite quick once you get your set up sorted.. I've done hundreds of cars this way and the beauty of the VBOX Tools system is I have them ALL on file and ALL are comparable to each other, so endless reports and analysis can be done across set ups..... and this is half the battle when you are doing allot of this.

What I love about my VBOX system more than any dyno is I have the dyno part (arguable more realistic than any dyno system in terms of figures it gives!) but I also have the performance figures, which customers love to see! as I say in my web page, its no good having one which does not correlate to the other!!! you always hear the excuse of 'dyno is just a tuning tool' when the reality does not match the theory....... with a VBOX both match! it is the best system around.

At the end of the day its just a good simple modern electronic version of what I was doing 20 years ago when my eng lecturer told me how to test cars using physics, and is exactly the same as what Author Hugh McInnes talks about in the famous iconic book called "How to select and Install TURBOCHARGERS" from the 1970's (the original and still the best text). I used to do all of this shit by hand, now with the VBOX It's automated and superbly accurate and repeatable and fully automated.

This is example of how a honest 570bhp (my estimate) ~350rwkw or 470rwhp (as I measure it!) 1300kg as run FD3S accelerates. In the meat of its power band 90kmh to 140kmh 3rd gear test.
.......... what pays to be noted is if you look in the FAST FD thread and take note of other cars tested where I have checked actual mass of the vehicle (as tested) and honest manufactures engine outputs, you will find amazing correlation to actual vehicle performance. All of this goes a long way to legitimizing the 'performance industry' and getting rid of the Supra 1000rwhp runs 11's mentality or dyno queen BS figures that get bandied about LOL..... sadly on most sites and establishments hype sells :( #1 and not many people use facts and basic maths, but times are changing slowly ....... very slowly and you can see it in peoples opinions towards dyno sheets of the plethora of different dyno systems around. Lets forget dubious operators or lack of calibrations/maintenance etc etc etc

BTW: These figures are off RICESP fitted with a T04Z turbo, normal petrol and water injected

See the power of VBOX reporting to break down and average power and acceleration associated at any speed points you wish to assess.
http://imageshack.us/a/img806/5250/1...0psisicbro.jpg

thank you very much Rice, great insight the I intend to apply for future builds.

I do have ask one question of you though, why is it that you charge so much for your water injection kits? Wannaspeed has duplicated your system stateside and at a fraction of your price. Why not come out with a system that is competitively priced?

Your name carries a lot of weight and I believe with a more affordable injection setup it could be more mainstream in the states. Would love to hear your opinion on the matter.

thanks again

Simple:

My parts are the best, they are bespoke to me, they are not cheap knock off's, I do not sell shit @ a low price point, nor do I source mass produce variable items and claim things against them, each and every system is flow tested and calibrated, it's perfect, not off the shelf items which are guessed.

My support/knowledge is the best, they are not cheap 2'nd or 3'rd hand information from the originator of the system rehashed as 'knowledge' :)

http://www.mechanical-water-injection.com/
^ Cheap systems can be obtained here ^ unlike the pretenders though I consult to this company, and the quality is better than the other knock/rip off copies of my original system. Rice Racing support and knowledge is available through WMI at a subsidized rate for people who are price conscious or averse, you just wont get the full don mega support or the best bespoke product as you would when dealing direct with me.

No problem at all.

I'm keen to see how your car goes.... and hope we can add many more to the FAST FD thread.
I had an old Yellow first gen I dynoed on a dynapack in 2001 or so and it had 470rearhubhp and it was an animal :117:
That same set up did about ~430rwhp on a dyno dynamics machine, I have a video of it on my web site fitted to a silver first gen RX7..... pre vbox days so no figures for acceleration etc.

updates?