Dyno?
 

Hi all.

I have recently had the Fd set up and when i received the Print out i noticed the Torque Curve sort of Drops off between 4500 and 5500 then Picks up again as the revs increase.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2...30/Torque1.jpg

I am not too clued up on Dyno print outs but from what i have seen this looks like i have an issue or a Fault as it still does it on lower boost (its not very clear but big red line is 1 bar and just under it is a Yellow line which is 0.8 bar the lower lines where on a Different IC that was holding it back but the dip is still there)

A Basic Mod list:

PFC with Profec B2 Boost controller
Mild Ported Motor with 3mm seals
Hybrid 60-1 turbo (.96 hot side), HKS Divided manifold, 50mm WG
3" exhaust (decat)
Stock Primary Injectors and 1600cc secondary’s, Aeromoive FPR, 044 Pump
WI Injection ( 50/50 .6mm jet by the Throttles)
HKS Twin Power (10's and 11's Plugs)
Blitz FMIC

I was told by the Dyno operator that the dip was due to poor gas flow through the Manifold, but i have read that if the manifold had reached its peak flow the Torque wouldn't climb anymore?

Can anyone enlighten me as this is an Area i really know little about?

Thanks :)

Who did the P-FC tuning?
It looks like a tuning issue...


-Ted

It was set up by a Rotary specialist in the UK.

Have this video too if it helps

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2...h_P1030301.jpg

Don't know too much about the scene in the UK, so I can't comment on "rotary specialist"...

I do have experience with the DynaPack dyno...

My personal car that I did some quick tuning after swapping turbos - the old turbo died.
1987 FC turbo, 13BT, compressor upgrade T04E "60 trim", 10psi
Not as much power as yours, but you see the general trend of the graph...

http://fc3spro.com/PICS/DYNO/dyna01.jpg

Thick red was baseline run
Thick green was after tuning the Haltech E8 to get rid of that dip from 4.5k+.

That dip sorta kinda looks like yours...
So I know you can tune it better to get rid of it. :)

The above dyno was only about 30 minutes of tuning.
It picked up 10 - 15 lb-ft of torque from 5k+.
I maybe did 3 runs total after baseline.
I was surprised it managed to hit 240 on the DynaPack.
Adjusted for DynoJet #'s, conservatively, it's in the 260's range.
The car was still running *stock* fuel pump, so there was no reason to go any further.


-Ted

I just watched the Video a cupple of times and at around 4500 the afr drops from upper 10's to aprox 10.2 afr is that what should be tuned out so it stays solid at for example 10.7 whilst your hitting peak boost? or wouldn't that make much of a diffrence?

Class, just Noticed i've put this in the wrong section. Sorry.

What can you say these Noobs coming on your Forum messing it up ;)

Nothing, we enjoy new people on this forum as long as they don't kick the bee hive with the intention of seeing the freenzy ;)

The AFR's dropping like that would account for the loss of power.

How much boost are you running? 10.7:1 is way WAY toooooo rich unless it's some insane amount of boost and meth injection. Personally, on pump, I run 12.5:1 up to 10psi... but that's me and my car. I don't tune cars that way.

The car was set up to 1.1bar of Boost and it does run 50/50 Meth Water mix but through a 0.6mm Jet by the Throttles and comes on at 0.7 bar, the only thing i can say is the Meth/Water mix is sending it rich maybe? Could it have been set like this to keep it on the rich side so airing on the side of Caution?

It was either going to be too much fuel or not enough fuel...
Either or would cause that dip.
Going with the AFR's you mentioned, it sure sounds like too much fuel...

I wouldn't get critical of the AFR's (and also total ignition advance) until you start to get close to maximum torque.
Looking at your graph, it looks to be right under 6k RPM (if that dip wasn't there).
Running in the 10's that far away from peak torque is just way too much fuel, especially when it's on the lower RPM side of the peak.

With the car on the dyno, that's all you really need in terms of "tools."
(I can argue EGT gauge at this point, but most of you are already tired of that. :) )
Just adjust fuel as long as power keeps going up - simple.
People get too caught up with AFR's, etc. to understand the dynamics of tuning.


-Ted

That much meth is going to skew the AFR's, either way though..... low 10's on only pump is too rich

I'm not.... seriously... too many people don't monitor EGT's or have a single probe in the DP.... worthless...

That.....

Would you say the meth is needed at my level (450hp at just under 1.1bar) i did do allot of thinking about it at the time and it was deamed the way to go just to keep the lines / Jets clean and it won't freeze in winter :) but now a bit on i'm thinking i've lost out of some extra Water Cooling effect and caused a tuning issue (its set up rich and if its tweaked back to 11's for argument sake and the Pump stops and then would that send me very lean on Boost)

I have one more question, are datalogits and Wideband kits a good thing to have or is it a case of Not clever in the wrong hands. TBh i proberly wouldn't like to touch the map myself buy i don't like the idea its been set up by some one who hasn't tuned out some thing that Ovious and i'd like to see what the rest of the maps doing.

MMMM That would Include me, I will look into getting some sort of EGT sensor fitted as this is also something that i have not come across and it interests me what my EGT is (i imagine running rich it should be quite low??) Just some thing else to add to the "To Do" list :)

We run 92 octane (R+M/2) over here, and 1.1bar of boost would be in the edge of our pump gas.
We can run that kinda boost, but I'll drop the total ignition advance a little just to keep it on the safe side.
I'll take the several percentage points drop in power just to keep the engine safe on the street with the deviation in gasoline (octane) quality.

RICE RACING is da man to talk to when talking about that supplemental injection stuff.
In fact, there's a good thread in another section somewhere where there's a lot of good numbers for this kinda stuff.
I personally don't touch this stuff, so I'm not qualified to answer such questions.

Just looking at your graph though...
You're losing around 20 lb-ft (or more) in that "dip" section.
That's a pretty significant amount of power, especially in the middle of your power band.
It would be nice to fix it and gain back that lost power. :)



I'm not a P-FC / Datalogit tuner, but the Datalogit does offer additional features that the P-FC Commander doesn't.
It looks like it unlocks a bunch of auxiliary maps and allows (more) datalogging.
Datalogging can be of great help for tuners, or if you do a lot of adjustments (driving by) yourself.

It still comes down to the capabilities of the tuner...
You can give the best tools to a crappy tuner, but it still won't help if they don't know how to utilize those tools.
A good tuner can get by with barebones monitoring (i.e. gauges) and tools, and still be more effective than the crappy tuner.


-Ted

The dip you see it totally in correlation with your Water/Methanol system kicking in at that point.

You do not need such a system at all (not even up to 1.3 bar boost pressure on T4 frame turbo's) as correct fuel richness levels and spark advance will suffice any effects towards detonation.

To run water injection without the associated dips you need to have the engine fully mapped for one or the other, you can not run your engine optimized for one and then expect it to run in another way with water injection you will always have non optimal result.

For a PFC or any other basic system you make the choice which way you want to go.
If you run a Life Racing, Syvec, or Motec ECU etc then you can have multiple strategies and different maps that all are tuned to allow different configurations for fueling and ignition mapping, and switch it as you see fit.

All of this is explained in great detail in my thread in members section or on the Aquamist site (only free source worth reading on the topic of water injection).

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

^ The only real legitimate source for rotary turbo water injection knowledge, that is proven and achieved by others and not touch typed on your local trashy forum by some nobody pony tailed or plastic trophy time attack racer lol ..................

Dyno's of engines properly set up to run water injection (all forms). No dips :cheers2:

http://www.riceracing.com.au/donsickcunt.jpg

472rearhubhp 1.3 bar Water Injected

http://www.riceracing.com.au/jase%20rotorpsi1.jpg

550rearhubhp 1.7 bar Water Injected

http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/0...ladynoscan.jpg

558rearwheelhp ~1.7bar Water Injected

Some examples for you :)

It is very common if you are dealing with a newbie or some wannabe cock smoker who is just reciting part information from the things I was speaking about 10+ years ago that you will get an inferior result.

Water Injection needs correct calibration, and proper system set up for supporting engine ancillaries, without the "whole package" of both parts and knowledge you will never get the full benefit of it and in many cases you will make you car package worse by applying it where it is not even needed in the first place :Chevy_anim:

That rubbish your duyo operator told you is just that!

If he had any idea he would have logged your boost pressure to wheel speed and engine rpm, like this...........

http://www.riceracing.com.au/to4z17psi.jpg

or

http://www.riceracing.com.au/scat.JPG

or

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/5...0psisicbro.jpg


Then he could pass on a nugget of information like he did lol......... based off some facts! not some bullshit comment based off his own ignorance and lack of basic knowledge!

I have NEVER EVER seen any rotary manifold exhaust or intake on a turbo based motor cause that effect!.... I can only provide you with PROOF! not some bullshit excuse like he told you.

On a positive note what I would suggest to you to narrow down the root cause is do some basic mapping of things like intake boost pressure trace and air fuel ratio to further narrow down root causes of your particular situation/problem.

My quick opinion is it is due to the fact of your WM system and poor calibration to suit it.

I watched you video.

The real reason is the Air Fuel mixture in the mid range once the turbine is at full speed / full boost is it has too much excess fuel and this drowns the engine and your tq and thus power curve.

The HKS DLI is a gutless piece of shit to be using on a water injected car PERIOD. If you need to keep it you will make another 50+rwhp more at the same boost by setting the AFR at a much more correct rate, assuming you have the right amount of WM50 going through the engine.

For street cars and conventional set ups > There is a sweet spot on AFR that starts around 10.8:1 anytime you are below this you end up with dis proportionate power losses, and this explains your DIP *YOUR TUNER SHOULD KNOW THIS!* (NOTE). ***There is no magic answer though for this for people who want to copy or recite the info*** each and every set up is different as is the application, some I run AFR in the 8's or below! that an AFR instrument wont even properly measure the figures! and that is with water injection as well. But do you want to make 1100bhp from a 13B reliably using petrol??? are you running a spark system you could weld with??? Do you even need to consider such things?????

If it bothers you then chase it, if not you will not fuck the engine because of it, just means it is a very safe set up, that is leaving a fair chunk of power on the table. The way it is it could run with or without the Water Injection so without knowing your personal situation that could be just what you want rather than chasing every last HP so you can compare cock sizes to random fagots on the interweb of gayness :)

We had a classic fuckwit here named John Blanch formerly from RX Engineering.....

Now this is FUNNY! (well not for the owner!)

I supplied my water injection system back in 2004 to a customer named Dale Helier and he was thsi shops customer, running one of his engines. I speced the system and so on, they cheaped out and ran some BS inductive boosters for ignition set up rather than the proper CDI I specify ......... anyway!

They were mapping the engine a few days prior to Summernats National Dyno competition. they noticed EXACTLY the same dip this poster has seen. Upon the wise advise LOL from John Blanch he said it will make heaps more power without the Water Injection system so lets turn it off to get rid of the dip in mid range power........ well the engine DETONATED the first run!!! and totally fucked it self on the dyno LOL.

The customer pulled out the motor and sent it to RX Engineering and they did a dodgy patch up job on it and over the phone told my customer Dale " I hate that Rice Racing ****, but his water injection system works, this time do not turn it off!" despite him being the one who suggest it LOL!!!

My customer went to summernats and ran the car (I still have the video somewhere on tape I need to convert it) ....... it was the highest ever true pump petrol 13B to run at that controlled event and was only ever beaten by another car I engineered and developed 3 years later, still to this day never beaten let alone equaled.

Now the moral here is John Blanch and his company (closed now!) RX Engienering claimed themselves to be experts in EVERYTHING and the best LOL just liek the false advertising of Microwreck computers (Australias #1 LOL) but just like what happened in REALITY these homeless high school drop out mechanics are nothing more than plebs with LITTLE knowledge let alone engineering skill to be using that name in a shop title LOL.

Be very careful who you take advise from, make sure that they themselves have a car that runs and does what they say it can and that it and their theories HAVE BEEN PROVEN, just like the plethora of decades of examples I can achieve myself :) lots of these cunts be they shop owners or self professed gods cant meet any basic tests and are nothing short of hypocrites as they themselves do not back up their mouth with a hard example of their own product that has come out of their own money their own pocket, they just use poor customers as experiments and consumable items to test shit they themselves are too scared or too broke to do.

Shame on these worthless cunts.

I know a guy that sold me one of these and said it would be fine....

LOL :icon_tup: :o13: :seeya:

Up to 20psi and with the right excess fuel ratio they work :icon_tup:

When you want to roll with the big boys then its total arse :001_005:

I am thinking about getting your water injector kit for my FC after we noticed that my TMIC with my cheap carbon fiber hood is basically useless.

Thanks for the Reply.

I understand the Map is going to be on the safe said but i'm just a little upset that the dip hasn't been tuned out tbh, if you look at the lower plot lines they are without WI and using a PFS SMIC as opposed to the Blitz FMIC that’s on it now, you can still see the dip in a similar place which is why i thought it may have been a fault with something rather than the tuner didn't bother to smooth it out.

I don't pretend to know much about the tuning side of things which is why i use a Tuner :(

In that case I apologize for my comments as it looks like then it is not the WI causing your dip. :dunno:

Need to look into it further to see what is ultimately causing it.

I watched it again and its not to do with boost as it is smooth enough, air to fuel ratio is at that 10.2 region where the graph is softest (step)... I'd say without seeing the 0.8bar runs that it is also running too much excess fuel at that point as well (around 5k rpm) then as the mixture gets to that magic 10.8+ region it steps up in power.

I'd be interested to see with a flat AFR ratio if that did not cure your stepped power band.

I know in my own test car that even with a welders ignition that there is massive differences of power once you get over this "soft power" zone *excessive fuel richness*........ though in some applications you need that to ward off detonation.

At your level of power with also with water meth it needs not be at 10.3:1 region, so I would get them to address that and see if that fixes the problem of low power at that rich zone in the mapping.

Peter

Unfortunately this is the Only other Info i got from the session. (Excuse the dumb coments on the Video)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2..._P10302918.jpg

HP Map, you can see the step between 4500-5500. Its a PITA as the 0.8 bar line is in yellow and is hard to see (thats why i took a pic of it rather than scan as it doesn't show up at all) if it helps the 0.8bar peaks at 380hp at 6500rpm.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/Grizzly30/HP.jpg

I understand its hard to Diagnose a car from the other side of the Planet :) but would you say there is a problem that wants looking into or am i just being paranoid? if it was WI i would proberly leave it but i don't like the idea there could be some thing failing thats been overlooked?

Feel free to get some comments from the others here, but without seeing more information I say it lines up with the fuel mixture at those points being a contributing factor....... but like you say it is hard to diagnose from here.

I have to agree...

With my experience and what most people tend to do...
They try to run all "10's" across the board when it comes to AFR, just because they are paranoid of hurting something.
I tend to run my AFR's a tad leaner in those low RPM areas, cause the engine is still picking up steam.
Like I said before, detonation and engine damage is more likely to happen around peak torque.
I don't worry too much outside of + / - 1,000RPM's of the peak torque curve.
Just to pick up some responsiveness from the engine, I run the low RPM's areas prior to peak torque a little bit leaner and more aggressive on the total ignition advance.
Like I said before also, I keep adjusting the maps until the power lines stop climbing on the dyno - some people can't grasp this basic concept of tuning.
I have argued with idiots who claim: "oh, I can't go leaner than 10.5 AFR's because this other (questionable) tuner told me not to." [DOH!]
I have run some customer's cars in the 4kRPM region as lean as 11.0 - 11.5 AFR's on a dyno wideband, and the engine is happy.
(Keep in mind that every engine in each unique vehicle will be slightly different [in engine VE] no matter how much you try to duplicate a set-up, and this is why you need to tune each individually and maps will never be identical.)


-Ted