800+rwhp 13B PP
 

turn up sound, there is a jet inc..!
Check out that hp curve and range...! I-N-S-A-N-E!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvg19...layer_embedded

Holy crap!

350kpa boost, another 30kpa over what I ran two days ago in the logs I posted up...... I bet you its not on pump petrol though lol.

nah, its some Q-16 shit, not pump.
Still, the area under the curve is very nice!

Actually, the video label says semi-PP, so it's not a full PP...

Am I the only one disappointed with the *torque* graph?
Although the X-axis is not labelled in RPM's, if we assume 4.10 rear end, standard gearing on a stock FD trans...looks like 5th gear pull?

Assuming tires are close to stock rolling diameter...
2,000 = 50mph
3,000 = 75mph
4,000 = 100mph
(Wow, works out nice for 25mph per 1,000RPM's?)
5,000 = 125mph
6,000 = 150mph
7,000 = 175mph
8,000 = 200mph

Assuming + or - 500RPM's due to different tire size, etc...
Peak torque ~4,800RPM?
Redline ~7,100RPM?

Torque drop from peak torque to redline just about 100 lb-ft???
Something doesn't jive...
With the semi-PP, I would think the peak torque would be a lot higher?
Also, the torque drop wouldn't be as drastic with the semi-PP?
20% drop in torque over 30% of it's rev range (actually more like 50% over it's usable rev range) is a lot to me...

Am I way off base here???


-Ted

Semi PP motors *street applications* don't make hi rpm power really, look at the dyno curve and peak power of the old Scoot FD (710ps @ engine @ 7100rpm @ 29psi boost).

These "curves can be mis leading.

If you go on my web site and look at the Capella that did 600rwhp on our Aussie dyno @ 24psi (LOL which probably equals 750rwhp on your types you use LOL) you will see a similar FAT and FLAT power curve for over 100kmh wheels speed.

On the road its a total horses cock as shown up by a 90-140kmh 4700rpm to 8000rpm (inc wheel slip) 3rd gear acceleration test. The proof is in the acceleration times, NOT IN THE WORTHLESS DYNO SHEETS. :cheers2:

These motors make NOTHING below 5000rpm to 5500rpm, and for the street that is a ****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqo5u...eature=related

This is a VERY well known car that has done a few VBOX runs. :Chevy_anim:

Low boost run at race track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3u5...hannel&list=UL

No Peripheral port or horse cock inlet manifolds needed ;) and higher power on lower boost LOL

Just curious, what do you consider high rpm and acceptable torque output at 5-5.5k rpm?

Hey Ted,

The torque curve looks strange because of two things.

-Tire/clutch slippage when the vehicle comes into boost

-Boost dropping off at higher rpms.

Dyno runs were done in 4th gear using a stock FD trans. Tire circumference is about 79"

The graph in the middle shows calculated gear ratio, this line is fairly straight if there is no slippage. Peak torque output is actually in the 530-560 range.

The bottom graph is the boost, near the end of the run the boost is only about 28psi. The wastegate being a 66mm unit with a 12-13 psi spring has a lot of surface area, and once you get up in the higher revs/power output the exhaust back pressure starts to go a little over 1:1 and pushes the valve open, limiting the boost.

If you were to calculate the average acceleration rate (now that you know the engine rpm) I don't think you'd be too disappointed:auto:

double post.

Hey PFS man, do up a video of how that car accelerates :) I'd love to see it.

Do you have a Race Logic VOBX or access to one? when you do you can post it up in this thread on fast fd http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_...ad.php?t=14704

We need MORE real cars that work and are quick. Your car should easily out accelerate a Buggati Veyron with that much power and low weight.
100kmh to 200kmh is the std, under 5 seconds and you will be the new super hero in the rotary world.

On the road in the real world with quick transient conditions that thing would not develop full boost till 6k rpm or more in 2nd or 3rd gears especially, so far as 4k to 5k forget it.

It's a really nice set up for high power dyno competitions though :302:

If you send me the vehicle run weight along with a VBOX .vbo or .dbn file, I'll see what power it makes on the street when you do an acceleration test with it, with that gearing though to do 100kmh to 200kmh you will probably be using 2nd and 3rd gears at a guess, rather than 3rd and 4th like we do.

It's not as "laggy" as you might think, but even if it didn't make full boost until 6k it still has a usable rev range of another 4800rpm. Assuming grip is equal, 2nd and 3rd gear will higher acceleration rates. Unfortunately I don't own a VBOX to be able to send you a log file.

You never commented on what you consider to be acceptable torque output at 5-5.5k and you term "high engine rpm"

Race Logic Drift Box or Performance Box are very cheap entry point to do some real world testing, you should buy one and test that car for us ;) :biggthumpup:

Cheap is relative, but that's besides the point. I have a chassis dyno that offers me the ability to have a controlled, repeatable, safe environment to perform testing. Constant, repeatable data, that almost takes the operator completely out of the equation. Having this type of testing equipment is a bit more practical for me.

I am a fan of Race Logic products, I've just never had a need that I could justify the cost.

150mph in 1/4 mile????

For less than 1k you can by a Drift box or even less for a Performance box, with nearly 900bhp 13B on tap you would be mad to not invest in one of these and show everyone just how fast that bad boy is out in the real world.

So you should list up some detailed specs on it for everyone to drool over ;)

So how long does this motor last using 10,000+rpm? what does the old man use it for? (dyno competitions only?)

I probably would not recommend trying to accelerate in 2nd or 3rd gear unless you want to warranty his gearbox hahaha :smash:

I'm sure we could muster up enough donations off this forums membership to buy PFS a basic cheap VBOX so you could post up some acceleration figures from this bad boy :patriot:

Hey, appreciate offering more information on this set-up!

The assumption was that nothing was slipping and that 100% (or close to it) of the power was getting to the dyno...
I give you credit that the graph is really smooth for stuff slipping during the run!
The smooth graph was the reason why I assumed there were no problem... :(
Hell, even watching the vid, I didn't see no obvious signs of slipage... :(

Yeah, the power drop had me scratching my head...
I thought for a split second that maybe the turbo (turbine) was too small but dismissed it cause of the total power output.
Hadn't thought that of the wastegate not being able to hold the pressure all the way through - 66mm (Tial?) yikes!

My problem was that I did not have sound when I viewed the video...DOH.
When I tried to punch in the gear ratios for a 4th gear 1:1, it was way over stock redline...another DOH.
With the graph shifted over like that, now the graph makes more sense.

I've got one question, if you don't mind...
How is your intake system designed?
Stock TB with modified stock intake manifold?
Single aftermarket TB with custom runners with everything running through it?
Semi-PP's running through it's own dedicated TB system?


-Ted

Hi Ted,
The wastegate is a Precision 66mm. When I first started the tuning I had softer springs in it, and it was capable keeping the boost as low as 8psi.

The intake manifold and throttle body is from Xtreme Rotary. The throttle body has four throttle plates, with the primary plates work off of a progressive linkage design. Drivablity is excellent. I did have to make some changes to it, but overall great product.

Call me mad, but I'd rather have the 1k in my pocket instead sitting on the shelf with everybody and their brother wanting to "borrow" it.

Detail specs? What do you want to know?

It's doubtful I'll be able to provide you with anything insightful or to your satisfaction, but I can try.

I can tell you I had over a hundred dyno pulls on the engine before I disassembled it. Early on I was struggling with a few things on this build, one being steel apex seals and being paranoid of warping them. When I disassembled the engine everything looked just like it should. I took my measurements, made my changes, and reassembled it.

If you keep the mechanical, and thermal limits in check what makes you think it wouldn't sustain long term use?

If you provide the VBOX and I will supply the data, but we both know it's a waste of time for a few reasons.

1) 7/8 of the people on here will not be able to effectively interpret the data, and will likely just go along with whatever you say as being definitively correct. This in itself could be because you are very technical, or they fear the possible public confrontation on the forum if they challenge your opinion.

2) Dynojet are unbias, the operator can't create it's own correction factors and or start the loading process before starting the dyno run, there are no sweep speeds etc.. Sure, you and I know that there are more effective tuning tools/dynos then a dynojet. But once the tuning is done and a vehicle is measure on a dynojet those numbers will match when the vehicle is taken to another dynojet dyno. That's not going to be the case most of the time with the other dyno because the operator of the dyno can influence the results.

3) With your capabilities you can easily take the data I already provided and calculate acceleration rates and averages. Whether you want to admit it or not we both know that the power level is exceptional and broad.
and all the Vbox is going to prove is just that, the power is exceptional and broad.

BTW, I'm not sure what the guys age has to do with anything, but don't kid yourself. Old age comes for all of us that are fortunate enough to endure it.

I am not doubting anything you say PFS man, just I want to see more fast FD's out on the road where they belong ;)

Let me know when you have some acceleration data from this car ;)

E-Mail me and I'll see what I can do to procure you some test gear to facilitate a test. Also how heavy is the car?

For the motor:

It's bridge and peripheral ported
Ceramic apex seals
What exact turbo specification?
fuel system detail?
race clearanced rotors? what compression ratio? what crank shaft if not standard?
How big is the exhaust system post turbo? is the waste gate plumbed back?
Pro EFI (how good is it) on staging it has a mis in the video? *see note on fuel system specs*
what exact fuel do you run in it? what AFR
What ignition system? how much timing on 350kpa ABS?

Congrats on the power and the nature of it, it is exceptional

If you e-mail me I'm sure I will get you a tester shipped from one of my friends there asap :coolgleamA:

On these similar 1000bhp 13B set up's I run twin 44mm waste gates to get over the problem you are facing now. Minimum spring pressure you can get away with on 350kpa abs and above is 1.4bar.

Single large WG will never work correctly with a "lower" base spring as you are finding out.

All pics are here for those interested > http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i2...k/Dads%20FD3S/

-Semi PP with street port.
-no, 2mm steel

-GT4202R

-6 x 160lbs injectors

-yes

-slightly less then 9:1

-reworked stock mazda shaft

-4" with two muffler

-no

-Very good, still needed accel table adjustments

-93 octane, VPC16, or Q16

-whatever the engine needs depending on load.

-inductive ignition system.

-whatever the engine needs depending on load and charge density.

What AFR can your induction ignition system handle on 350kpa boost, I assume you are limited to what you can run with it? Same for advance? what is the maximum power you ran on 93 octane alone?

CO2 could address this:biggrinjester: If the goal was to make more power we would've just swapped to a stiffer wastegate spring.

I'm not so sure why the shyness on sharing with people here what AFR and timing you use????

Specifically 8k to 10krpm @ 350kpa abs (or slightly below as your boost does not hold).

We both know the values, hell I even provided the knowledge for a 800+rwhp 12A! running a GT45R turbo using 36psi gauge boost, using C16 fuel only (and that is on our dyno's that read lower than yours) car trapped 167mph in a RX3 with a 28x9 tire. Only used 9000rpm though, bridge ported with 13B-RE inlet manifold and adapter plate.

I have a couple of customers who run C16 at similar mph and similar rwhp figures on just C16 but with 13B's and all are water injected to make the steel apex seals reliable long term.

AFR's in the 10's Timing in the single digits.

What power have you made on 93 octane "true street set up" with that combination?

I'm not being shy, but apparently we don't both know the numbers as mine are not the same as your. But honestly I don't care what other people "claim" to run for afr's, ignition timing, boost levels etc...there are too many variables, mix that with a bunch of half truths and you'll be really confused.

9000rpm is also not the same as 10-11k rpm. Water injection as good as it is (and I'm not being sarcastic) is not a real lubricant.

167mph is respectable, depending on the vehicle weight. At roughly 1800lbs it only take 640hp, but a full weight FD would need about 1060hp to trap the same mph.

Do you have any dyno graphs to share? Vehicle weight? How about the dyno graph for the GT45.

A bit like yourself and anyone who is in this game (who develops these things) I don't post current details of anyone's set up nor my own, only old hat that is a few steps back from current best practice ;)

So did you get a power figure on 93 oct????

p.s. the GT45 proved too small Ultimately for a 2 rotor, on pistons 4cyl I have used them on 1300bhp (real engine power) is not a problem! Rotary forget it.

LRT formula (proven across hundreds of road cars) with normal manual trans and say your running real road tires!

1310kg (real road weight FD rx7 with 1/4 tank fuel)
150mph (averaged over last 66ft of a 1320ft standing start test
= 870bhp

Your car should easily do that given your power band and "dyno proven power"

looking forward to the result.

You will see a road FD in the fast fd thread that has done a proven 140mph both at traps and via VBOX (at same location) with 1280kg run weight (anorexic owner and no poofter sub woofers installed!) and it ONLY did 525rwhp lol (385rwkw VBOX) real wheel power at track!

fact v's fiction

go test it, I'd love to see the actual results from this car :) :bowdown: IT WILL KILL A BUGATTI VEYRON which only does 142mph in a 1320ft acel test and its weight is FUCKEN MASSIVE LOL!!!

Fact V's Fiction BS stops when the VBOX drops.
 

100kmh to 200kmh is the international test standard. Eliminates all excuses (poor traction) poor shifting etc, you only need to change gear once, and it will prove your spread of power and ULTIMATE POWER.

You should EASILY do sub 5 seconds in this test, making you the worlds fastest street car (if you could do it on 93 octane) but regardless it will be impressive to see a 13B RX7 achieve that :D

A VBOX unit will be the only evidence I will accept, it will record your location, your average height/altitude and eliminate ALL cheating (unless you strap it to a rocket sled and cheat yourself lol).

smg944 is the only person to man up so far next to me :icon_tup:
In the rotary world backing up hype dyno figures seems to be only second to 1200rwhp supra's that trap 120mph in the quarter mile LOL......

Buggati Veyron is the legitimate record holder with 4.7 seconds 100kmh to 200kmh
4650lb
(only) 1006bhp

You seem to be confused. I dont need nor am I seeking your approval. This all goes back to what I said in an earlier post. The nice thing about dynojet results is it almost completely removes the operator from the equation. On a DD dyno, the operator can influence the results, just as the result will vary from driver to driver using the VBox.

The bottom line is I know what this car is capable of and so do you. I asked you two questions after you made your first few comments, what do you consider to be acceptable torque output at 5-5.5k and what you consider high RPM to be. Because clearly according to you this car would not be capable of either (big torque output and high rpm)

I then posted a dyno graph answering some of Ted's questions showing the run with the RPM axis displayed. Now this graph didn't appear on your magical VBox, but I'm sure you read it plain as day on you monitor. Nice torque and high rpm from a 2 rotor.

After seeing that graph I understand why you wouldnt answer my original questions, you already had enough back paddling to do with you horse cock intake comment and the Scoot FD dyno results from 1984. Instead of just saying something positive (or god forbid nothing at all) you start in with your "real world boost not until 6k yada yada yada" which isnt the case and even if it was there was still another 4800 of USEABLE rpm to go.

Then is how long is this 10k engine last...

Next you want me to buy a VBox so I provide you with data? I politely reply explaining how I have a chassis dyno and have no need for a VBox.

Now I'm too cheap, and you can get the forum to buy one.

My full weight FD was trapping 145 mph a decade ago, I tuned that car on the same exact dyno I still use today. There nothing wrong with the dyno or the numbers.


Like I told you earlier, send me a Vbox and I'll send you back the magical Vbox data you want along with the VBox smashed into a million piece.

Let me know if you'd like me to video it too.

No pedal power here mate, unlike yourself who has something to hide????

Anyway ;)

An E-Mail has been sent and you should be able to borrow an instrument from us (will let you know) and then you can test your Buggati Veyron Beater :gnorsi:

LOL

p.s. for Q16 and that turbo and a motor that is dubious in terms of reliability its a so so result............ about 20 years behind the times, but congrats on signing up and sharing nothing except your opinion of yourself and your abilities LOL.

p.s. you can have 48000rpm of useable power LOL but honestly 6000rpm for full boost? on the road in transient conditions and not in your dyno room............ Please you and I know that is shit, nice for a dyno comp though LOL.

Proof is on the street, in the real world.

If you want to compare to drag cars most of us have done for 20+ years then you are around 400bhp short of where you need to be, so not much special to be praised nor adored mate.

The Greek Real Street FD3S I posted up makes more power, on less boost, and dare I say would not be a 10800rpm hand grenade either, not a horse cock manifold in sight nor a peripheral port either :ugh2:

So far as the "accuracy of your dyno" LOL

You know there is a GUESS FACTOR applied to dynojet's by its original maker cause it would not deliver the power of a set std motor when they were originally designed :ack2:
hahahaha

Tell me oh ye of many expertise what happens to your magical readings when you fit different wheels LOL........ then tell me how accurate it is!!!!

:cheers2: Have a nice time in fairy land :cheers2:

If you want a piece of real gear to test your magical race car (claiming to be a road car) then I can provide it, but since you know everything I may just retract my offer of help since you know everything, except how to tell us how much power it makes on 93 octane nor to tell us anything of any note about your "set up" of which would be interest to people who frequent this web site.

PFSupercars Built/Tuned
9.24@151mph

^ LOL

So let us all get this right, You built ET's car with 819rwhp!!! and gone through 1 million motors, gearboxes, turbo's fuck knows what else and it ONLY does 151mph???????????????????????????????????????????? ????


Is this the same motor after ET pulled it out and you put it in this car, cause that would be 200 runs on the dyno trying to work out how to make it "reliable" if you include ET's motor.....???????????????????????????

How the FUCK does a full on DRAG CAR ONLY do 151mph WITH THAT MUCH POWER ON SLICKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO you either need to calibrate your dyno or clear up your stories or start sharing some facts on these magical set ups ;) remember the offer of help is free on forums, unless you are just coming here to tell us how a DRAG CAR ENGINE can be an under performer when run by your 10 years of experience and so on and so forth.

:Chevy_anim:

:bowdown: @ mediocrity