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Twin Charged FD - Fraternal Twins
Hey Everyone,
The purpose of the build is to twin charge my FD. Yes, I said twin charge. I’ve been researching for about a year now, this type of thing isn’t very well documented anywhere (well from what I’ve seen anyways). So I’ve been slowly designing the system and collecting parts. My goal is to have it working by deals gap, not sure if it’ll be done, but that’s the goal. Before I get started, I’ll just say that I know that these kinds of threads come along and then nothing ever happens, and that could very well end up being the case here, but I’m going to give it a shot and see what happens. I welcome all constructive ideas, but please refrain from posting negative criticism (I’ve made up my mind to try this, no turning back now) I’ve currently got the Greddy T78 kit. When I had it tuned, it made 454whp at 18psi. Which is a little low, and the previous owner blew an engine on the car so I think it has seen better days. I’ll be sending it off for a rebuild in sometime this month, so even if this project doesn't work, I'll at least gain a fresh turbo. I bought a remanufactured Eaton M62 supercharger in September. It’s got a clutched pulley and I plan to have it disengage after its done doing its work down low (1k – 6k rpm), then the turbo will take over entirely. I’m aiming for around 500whp somewhere around 20psi (with meth injection). But with torque down low, and no lag. If this actually works, I’ll upgrade to a larger turbo to make more top end power with no lag. I’ve been debating going 20b, and would if the car wasn’t already single turbo and using the TEC GT ecu. Going 20b would require changing out the ecu, buying a 20b, buying a mounting kit, and paying someone to make new piping for me. Those are the big costs that I would incur; I know there are many other small items that would add to it. So the next best thing is attempting to grow my hp level, but decrease lag and increase torque down low. That’s where the twin charged setup comes in. And if it works, I can then transfer it to a 20b application a few years from now, which would be the ultimate setup. I've come across a bunch of videos on youtube during my research: Coolest silvia I’ve ever seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SjNgVH_HN0 And my true inspiration: go to 1:60, it’s instant boost (I know there is no load on the engine, but still cool) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLB2P1ziXYA I’ve found numerous threads on twin charging, on many different forums, but never really anything that shows start to finish, with a DIY. And definitely nothing on this forum. A lot of the info I found was geared more towards big V8's with short rpm ranges with a supercharger on top of the engine and turbochargers compounding through the supercharger, with both systems on all the time, so those don't really help me that much (wouldn't be great on the FD). But I was able to find a picture of what could possibly be the best FD setup ever: (couldn’t find pictures at completion or information on how it was controlled) http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/P6210722.jpg |
Also, TitaniumTT has been absolutely essential to the build so far. Thanks Man!!!
He's been doing all of the welding (which you'll see pics of later on) and also letting me use his tools to make the pieces I need. And he's also a great source of knowledge, having someone to bounce ideas off of is great. Here is a quick recap of where the project is and where it needs to go. My current setup: 94 R2 FD Brilliant Black Street ported engine with oil and coolant passage mods HKS Hypermax coilovers (courtesy of RX7 Boutique / PureRX7) Racing Beat Sway bar (front) PFS Large Race SMIC w/ duct Meth injection (2 x 625 ml/min nozzles w/braided lines to shurflo pump, Snow Performance progressive controller) TEC GT ems with upgraded coils (coils located by brake vacuum booster & master cylinder) Battery relocated to passenger bin Greddy T78 turbo kit Greddy Elbow 3” exhaust from turbo back (Borla resonator, HKS catback) 1680 secondary injectors 720 primary injectors SARD FPR Aeromotive Tsunami fuel pump (in tank) HKS SSQV BOV HKS EVC IV boost controller Short Shifter (came with car, not sure of brand) PLX DM100 gauges x2 – modules for boost, wideband AFR, oil pressure, fuel pressure, water temp, oil temp, AIT Taylor 8mm spark plug wires (made them myself, actually turned out really nice) Eliminated AST Koyo Radiator w/ stock fans New setup requires the following changes: Power Steering delete – the supercharger is going to be placed where the power steering pump used to be, so I found a good used Maval manual rack (thanks Allrotor) Oil Filler neck – this needs to be modified and routed to the rear of the UIM, as the rear of the supercharger takes up all the room in the neck’s stock location. Most likely a rebuild too |
Stock power steering and A/C bracket:
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0345.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0344.jpg Cut, Cleaned, and Squared: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0338.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0337.jpg Aluminum mounting plate, there are two of these, this one is fixed to the bracket. The other is larger and is what the supercharger will bolt to. This bracket is only tacked together, now that I know it fits, we're going to weld it up and also add some gussets to strengthen it. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0348.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0346.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0347.jpg Test fit: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0339.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0340.jpg The larger plate (for bolting the supercharger down): http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0341.jpg Supercharger: close to its final place, I need to trim part of the throttle mechanism bracket on the throttle body, but things are lining up nicely: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_0342.jpg Not much room but it looks like it'll work! |
Here is the modified bracket, it now has 4 gussets to make it strong:
Check out these welds, I owe a HUUUUUGGGEEEE thanks to TitaniumTT, although he mostly lives on the "other" forum. I need to duplicate this over there. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ger/photo2.jpg I cleaned and cleaned, and baked and baked, but I think because this piece sits under the power steering pump, and I've had leaks before, the cast aluminum just soaks up so much oil and grime, making it a little tougher to weld, but it came out really nice regardless. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...rger/photo.jpg And I got a big package, with 6 little packages inside Piping!!!!! - 2.75" diameter, 2x18" straight pieces, 2x45 degree bends, 2x90 degree bends: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ger/pipes1.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ger/pipes2.jpg I've also modified my throttle body throttle linkage to give me a little more room. I took off the cruise control linkage, and moved the normal throttle linkage into its spot. The little bushing that holds everything in place came apart really nicely (it's just pressed together). Then I swapped the outer throttle cable holder to the inside where the cruise control cable linkage was. Now I just need to cut off about an inch from the small bar that the spring butts up against, this will give me room to slide the supercharger back just a hair. Throttle Body (you'll notice it's there is only one piece to hold a thottle cable, which now sits where the cruise control cable hookup used to be): http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...dymodified.jpg Close up & removed cruise control cable hookup: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ketremoved.jpg Piece I need to cut about 1" off of, which will give me just enough room for the inlet to the supercharger. This is what the spring that springs back the thottle valves loads against. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ottletocut.jpg sorry for the poor Iphone pics |
Check this out!!!
Finally got the baseplate welded to the bracket. Absolutely amazing looking (well I think so anyways). Again, a huge thanks to TitaniumTT for the great welds. Now all I've got to do is mount it, line up the pulleys, and then drill 4 holes in the plate for the supercharger to secure the supercharger through its stock mounting holes. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1819.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1818.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1817.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1816.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1815.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1820.jpg After its bolted down and secure we can start fabbing up the piping |
Sweet! Finally you made it over, awesome! Glad to help people that appreciate it, ya know? So yeah, welcome to RCC, you won't have any negative critismn over here, we don't roll that way.... but check out post number #4 though... copy/paste got ya :rofl: I don't mostly live on the other forum, they perma banned me again because I am of no value to the community apparently :smilielol5:
You said send it out for a rebuild... I thought you were talking about the engine at first! Got me worried you found something out before we did the obligatory comp test.... which as someone pointed out to me last weekend is just like an AIDS test, you want to know, but do you really wanna know? :lol: |
I saw this on the other forum & I'm glad you decided to share the build over here. I remember I had mentioned the idea of twin charging over there & all I received were negative comments. Very interested in seeing how the build progresses goes for you.
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Looks like good stuff! Brian, help him get this to DGRR, as long as it doesn't make your FC suffer!
I am fond of all the liquor in the background of nearly every pic. Win. |
wait... I'm confused... Are you compound charging it using a twin system, or are you going to be doing some crazy valve work and using the turbo's separately from the super?
(In other words are you going to be running the super charger pressure into the turbo's or the turbo's pressure into the super, or are you going to be running them at the same time and which ever one is running the higher pressure you'll be using) |
The flow will be:
Clean Air -> Turbo -> Supercharger -> Throttle Body -> UIM I was originally going to have some valving, allowing the turbo to bypass the supercharger at high RPM, but have since decided to keep them in series (compounding) all of the time. Once I have it working, then I'll do some R&D to see if I can come up with a bypass system. I've got a good design for it, but time constraints and cost will keep me from exploring it for a little while. Your confusion may have been caused because I copy/pasted my old build thread from the other forum, and skipped a lot of the discussion around which routing combination to use. My research concludes that compounding the turbo into the supercharger is absolutely better than vice-versa. I do like the idea of a bypass system (would really come in handy if I decide to use a smaller than stock supercharger pulley, so i can almost over-rev the supercharger by 6k rpm engine speed for even more boost down low and then let the turbo take over). But that can wait until I have a basic system that works. And I swear I'm not an alcoholic. My kitchen table triples as a liquor cabinet and car part picture taking stand haha. |
I'm really interested to see where this goes. I'm pretty sure if it's finished for DGRR I've got dibs on a ride. Maybe the same deal I've got with B...
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So how are you going to cool down the compound charge? It would seem to me that the increased pressure would cause a slightly warmer intake temperature (PV=RT and all).
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A few different ways:
1. the wastegate on the turbo will be opening earlier due to the compounding multiplier effect that the supercharger will have on the turbocharged air. Meaning the turbo will actually have to do less work in order for the engine to see any desired PSI. And since the supercharger alone will never produce more than 10-15psi (due to pulley sizes), the turbo wastegate will regulate all boost above those levels by reducing turbo CFM (allowing more exhaust air to bypass the turbine). 2. Intercooler. My above post is flawed, sorry about that. the true flow is this: Fresh Air -> Turbo -> Supercharger -> Intercooler -> Pipe to throttle body (methanol added) -> throttle body -> UIM. 3. The methanol mentioned above will also reduce heat :) |
Looking forward to seeing the final results, looking good.
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Don't let Peter see that... :rofl:
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lol @ brian and the aids comment.... hahaa
yeo i was about to send u a link to this thread... tricked me with the alter ego name switch!! |
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The only reason i haven't been on here that much is because I'm usually just browsing 3rd gen classifieds, and that section on here doesn't have too much volume yet. RX SE7EN is actually the license plate that I was going to get...until NY changed to the stupid yellow plates just when I was going to order it :( I don't want to switch over to that awful/ugly yellow plate, so i'm sticking with the old style plates. Bubbles, any chance you'd like to media blast some parts for me? I'd like to clean them up before sending them out for coating. I could trade you some parts for the labor? |
Check it out, bolted down and lined up (the bolts are temporary, I'll be ordering some better fitting, nicer looking bolts and spacers this week):
(Stock Belt works, but still working on mounting a tensioner) http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1828.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1829.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1830.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1831.jpg This is the stock outlet pipe from the mercedes. I bought this so that I could have the smoothest transition coming out of the charger as possible. I'll be hacking it up and putting on a 2.75" pipe pretty close to the supercharger, so the big hole that you see won't be there for long. Notice it fits under the strut bar :) http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1832.jpg Relocated fuse box to make room for intake piping into the throttle body from the intercooler: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1833.jpg The big box is mounted on its original bracket which I cut and bent to fit in the new spot, and bolted to a factory threaded hole. I still need to make a bracket for the smaller box. Now its onto the piping. I also removed the T78 turbo today (it started smoking at the end of last summer). I got the cold side housing off, the blades look great. I didn't get the hotside off yet, i'm a little worried about the blades though, before I got the car the engine had blown. and when I was getting it tuned last time they said it wasn't making the power that it should. I got the band off that holds the hot side housing on, there was oil underneath it, so I at least I found the source of the smoldering smoke coming out from under the hood after it got hot. There is a little slop in the shaft, I've seen worse, so hopefully the rebuild doesn't cost too much. Does anyone know a good turbo rebuild shop? Must be someone that can do the T78. |
What are you guys using for circuit breakers when relocating your battery to inside the car? My battery is in the rear bin and doesn't have a breaker.
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Waytekwire.com or Delcity.net have marine grade buss breakers for 1/2 the $$$ that WestMarine will charge. I run a 150A
How's the piping coming along man? |
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^yep, or for those of us with what would seem like way too much time on our hands.... surface mount
http://order.waytekwire.com/products...%20Protection/ |
So I've hit a slight roadbump. I sent my Greddy T78 turbo out for a rebuild as it started smoking last fall. Prior to that, it had never made great power and was laggy (my car came with the kit and a blown engine), I had put a new motor in and never rebuilt the turbo or even took it apart. I sent it off for a rebuild and this is what is wrong with it:
Bad seals, I knew that, because oil was leaking. Useless turbine wheel, I was hoping this wouldnt be the case. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...329_183009.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...329_183140.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...blades_2_2.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...o_blades_5.jpg The cost for a rebuild quickly escallated, couldn't even find a turbine wheel/shaft in the country. There was one in Japan the rebuild shop could get for $415 (the turbo is no longer in production), they showed me the quote straight from the supplier and were going to give it to me at cost. So that put the rebuild cost to around $900. Way too much. The shop was Midwest Turbo Connection. Even though I can't vouche for their work, their customer service was excellent, and got back to me extremely quick with multiple updates while they were trying to track down the wheel, and also sent tons of pics for me. Customer service like that is hard to find. So I've been shopping around, and the only thing I could find that's roughly the same size and decently price is a BW S366. So I'm going to try to pick one up next week. I couldn't even find anything used for decent price :( |
It's official, I'm now a Borg Warner S366 owner.
Here is the link: http://www.diesel-plus.com/dd_turbo.cfm?npid=9784 http://www.diesel-plus.com/images/bo...erks-S300S.jpg Basically, it's a little larger than my old T78, and will perform better. This is actually on back order and will be hard to get until May, but Mike at Southeast Power Systems (Diesel-Plus online) was able to get me hooked up and its on its way. Great customer service, and great prices. Every place else I tried just said it was on back order from BW and they wouldn't be able to get it until May. But Southeast Power Systems figured out how to get one to me quickly. It's a 66.1mm compressor, with a T4 twin scroll housing, .91 A/R. I would have liked a little bit bigger A/R, but its not really available yet from BW. I've heard the 1.0 and 1.10 will be coming out in a few months. If I need to, I'll upgrade later on. The T4 inlet configuration looks slightly different than my T78, so I'm not sure if I'll have to modify the exhaust manifold at all. I'm hoping the new housing doesn't touch the LIM. |
Gotta love buying a turbo for a 6.0L engine to go on a 2.0L engine becuase the 2.0L engine rocks the 6.0L engine's world.
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Haha, yes it is a large turbo. It's not too much bigger than the T78 though, pretty comparable to the T88. I was actually pretty happy with my T78 the way it was, and as you can see, the turbine wheel was in bad shape. So even if the supercharger doesn't work, this should still be an improvement in response.
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very very nice. I can't wait to see it all together
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Speaking of... when we doing some more welding Colin? Did you manage to get everything fit as far as piping goes? SC officially mounted? I noticed my little gift for you is still sitting in the box in my box :suspect: I'm officially back in the garage tonight working. I won't be able to take tomorrow off, hoping for Friday but doubtful. Next week is going to SUCK, I know that. Brakes are in AZ being finished, turbo's are in AL being finished, driveshaft is in stamford and needs to be picked up, remeasured, probably built again, powdercoating in Stratford, seat in Norwalk, head up my ass, and time is ticking away.... :willy_nilly: |
I've barely gotten anything done :(, I do have the supercharger mounted, and my oil lines came in. So thats a plus. I cut the inlet and outlet pipes, but haven't cut the new piping that needs to be welded to them.
I did get the bumper off though, (my garage got rammed by the neighbors car and a tool box flew into my bumper :(, also cracked my r-magic fender) So that needs to get fixed too. A whole lotta suck going on haha. I'll have to turn it up this weekend. |
Huge updates coming, pulled an all nighter saturday, and got almost all of the piping done. The only piping left is the easy stuff (almost only straight pieces to go, and no more welding piping to cast aluminum)
Turbo also came in, it fits on the manifold just fine. Even more clearance than before. I just need to cut the 4bolt flange off the downpipe and weld on the V-band flange. I'll also be coating the turbine housing with DEI high temp coating. My belts came in today, we have tension :) and I installed my Tweakit racing idler pulley for the water pump belt (I purchased it last year haha). Pictures will come tonight. |
My belts came in today, I bought 40", 40.5" and 41" gatorback belts to see what would fit best. 41" fits on great and has tension. I'll be using some extra nuts to raise the supercharger up about 1/4" to put the final bit of tension on. Unfortunately I ordered 5 rib belts by mistake, I need to order a 6 rib instead. At least I've got the tension right though.
I'm also ordering a 5 rib 35.5" belt for the water pump, alternator, and TeakIt idler/airpump delete belt. I'm glad I finally installed that. Here is the first round of pics from last weekend (please keep in mind these are prior to grinding down/touching up welds. I'll spend the time making them pretty once I know it actually works): First up, inlet for supercharger. I actually purchased the stock mercedes cast piece and planned to weld my own pipe to it, but due to clearance issues under the UIM, we just made the entire piece from stock. Flange, will have pipe welded to this side http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...7-SCinlet1.jpg mates against supercharger, need to grind these down to get a perfectly flat flange. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...8-SCinlet2.jpg With pipe attached: This pipe will run under the UIM, and curve up next to the secondary fuel rail where many have their aftermarket fuel pressure regulator located, and then into the outlet of the supercharger. http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...9-SCinlet3.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...0-SCinlet4.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...1-SCinlet5.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...2-SCinlet6.jpg need to plane this flat: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...3-SCinlet7.jpg |
Supercharger outlet pipe:
Will be routed from supercharger across the front of the alternator, over the thermostat housing, and into the intercooler: What i started with: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...r/IMG_1832.jpg What I've got now (same angle) http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...-SCoutlet2.jpg (opposite angle) http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...-SCoutlet1.jpg This would interfere with the thermostat housing, so I had to modify the Tstat housing in order to provide for a smooth transition into the intercooler. Please keep in mind that my AST has been deleted for a long time. two pieces that used to be one: Tstat housing: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...athousing3.jpg In process: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...athousing2.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...athousing1.jpg Done and tons of clearance for my new supercharger to intercooler piping: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...athousing5.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...athousing4.jpg I use the 2nd gen metal fill neck (cut the flange off and welded to the new piece), the 3rd gen fill neck is plastic |
Greddy Elbow:
The extreme angle on the normal greddy elbow wouldn't allow the inlet pipe to clear the supercharger, so I had to change the angle. Now the pipe will run closer to the strut tower where the fuse box was. Original: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...046-elbow1.jpg Cutting: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...047-elbow2.jpg Tacked together for mock up: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...048-elbow3.jpg Final (angle wasn't quite enough to provide clearance in the above pic, so this is the final piece which was cut one more time) http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...049-elbow4.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...049-elbow5.jpg http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...050-elbow6.jpg Inside: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...051-elbow7.jpg Still have smooth flow: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...052-elbow8.jpg There are three tapped holes, 2 for meth nozzles, 1 for intake temp sensor. I really think all of these pieces came out great. Please remember, these still all need to be cleaned up some, but the welding is great. Thanks again Brian!!! Now we just have to make a few easy pieces. Straight pipe with BOV from intercooler outlet to greddy elbow. and a pipe with a 45 degree bend from the supercharger inlet pipe to the turbo outlet. |
Very interesting build. Interested to see the next steps too.
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So DJ, looks like she'll be @ DGRRXI afterall! |
Just read it again.... Tension!!! SWEET!!! So tension bolted down, then even more with the 4 nuts underneath moving it up ever so slightly?
When are we doing the obligatory AIDS ereerrrrrr comp test and firing her up? |
hopefully sunday. I have to do my taxes in the morning haha, then work, then car time.
We've still got to adjust the downpipe too, but it looks like it should be easy. Fingers crossed for the aids test haha, but im a little owrried |
Cooooooooool.... w/e is supposed to be lousy for weather though.... good thing you've got that lean-to ;) Yeah man, whenever you've got that DP ready, shoot me a txt and we'll get it all welded up, and whenever you've got the time, I've got the tester.
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Update: cut the 4 bolt downpipe flange off the downpipe, welded a small piece of pipe, and then welded on the vband flange. For anyone with the T78 kit wanting to do this, you have to cut back the downpipe to just before where it finishes its final bend, otherwise the downpipe is about 1/4" to high to go straight into the turbo outlet.
Check out the fitment now :) Cut and tacked together, vband and hose clamps holding everything in place: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ger/photo5.jpg Half way there: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ger/photo6.jpg Complete (there will be no leaks on this vband: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ger/photo7.jpg Now I just have to rewrap the downpipe and coat it and the turbo with DEI high temp coating. I had no idea that the normal heat wrap just disintegrates after its been run for a while. It was literally turning to dust during removal. |
I said DAMYUM that shop is filthy... clean that shit up!!!!! oh wait :rofl:
Seeing as how my car won't be attending.... we're gonna bust ass and make sure DJ is satisfied and this bad ride is @ DGRRXI :icon_tup: |
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