Drifting, hellaflush, slammed, tire stretch blog/bash thread.
 

This thread is here for one reason and one reason only....... So the people who want to argue, CAN ARGUE! Do/say whatever you want in this thread, but do it in this thread ONLY!! Venturing out to other parts of the forum for the sole purpose of argueing will result in time outs. Lounge rules apply here. Call each other names, bash each other to high holy hell it's all fair game. If you get butt-hurt easily, I suggest you stay away because I will ONLY take action regarding a post if it breaks the following rules. Racial comments, attacks on the staff, and attacks on the forum will NOT be tolerated and will result in a Perma-Ban.

So, now that we are all in understanding.... let the games begin.

Allow me to start it off......



Those wheels don't fit in the front.... periord. The reason they don't fit in the front is becuase you have to run the wrong size tire to make them fit. Therefore the package doesn't fit properly. Put that rim in the rear with the right size tire on it. The right size being a 255 or BIGGER. I run 17x8 +35 F with a 235 tire and the tire is too small IMO.

And even a pull wouldn't get that to fit. You would need to run overfenders and cut ALOT of sheetmetal out to make it fit properly.

And even putting that 17x9+25 with a 255 in the rear would be DAMN close. I run a 17x9+35 with a 255 in the rear and when I FULLY compress the suspension it BARELY clears without a roll. I plan on running 275 in the rear next year and they WILL hit with that offset, but in reality, with the suspension I have, it SHOULDN'T touch.

The way to check to see if something actually fits is to remove the spring and fully compress and fully extend the suspension. If there is no contact, thedn it fits.

This is fact, not to be debated. There are cheats and shortcuts I will admit. But to say that wheel fits in the front is WRONG

The Slide or die, hyde yer daughters, hellaflush, stretch - drifting blog/bash thread
 

It's a waste of time arguing with these idiots.


-Ted

ok then, explain to me why stretching tires are dysfunctional with hard evidence.

If you like stretched tires sell your FC and go buy a fucking volkswagen

end of discussion

If you'rer drifting NA and need help breaking traction in the rear put some azenis in the front and kumho ecsta ASTs in the rear, over inflate them and toe out 1/8" and make sure you have 0 negative camber, I know I know, it doesn't look cool, right?

The loss of stength from the sidewall being stretched is NOT helping you drift.

(I'm going to ignore your poor attempt at trying to insult me and address your short sightedness directly.)

You're so tunnel-visioned about hippari stretch tires that you fail to see the big picture.

WE had no problems running proper tire fitments on our FC drift project.
Fronts were 225/50/16 (A032R) on 8" wide rims.
Rears were anything from 205 wide tires on 7" wide wheels to 225 - 245 wide tires on 8" wide wheels.
We had NO problem drifting the FC.

http://fc3spro.com/PROJECTS/SKY/20B/sky20b.html

Vid link is at the bottom.

Underpowered vehicles have no problem sliding, as long as you know what you are doing.
We regularly have a lot of "underpowered" AE86's on the track.
If you knew what you were doing, you use vehicle speed to get the car to go sideways.
It has nothing to do with the tires or the tire set-up.
A GOOD DRIVER can get any underpowered vehicle to slide regardless of the tire combination.
Beginning drifters (LIKE YOU) insist on having a specific tire set-up - poor traction in the back, so you can kick the back out easier.
This just means you don't have the BALLS to go into a corner fast enough to kick the rear out like the real drivers do and rely on poor traction in the rear to get the back end to slide out first.
This means you're relying on the fronts to keep traction - this means you're still a rookie.
Good drifters do 4 WHEEL DRIFTS where all 4 tires are sliding.
A good drifter would insist on good traction (i.e. tires) in all 4 corners to properly drift.
(Why is this point important?)
Because it's the same set-up that grip drivers do...good traction in all 4 corners.

This is not drift versus grip.
This is about you not understanding what you are talking about and insisting you are right.

There are other ways to decrease traction on tires.
One obvious way is to use cheap ass tires.
Yes, hippari stretch is another way.
Yet another way is to change the tire pressures.
Yet another way is to change or disconnect sway bars.

Be careful of what you say, cause you have no idea who you are talking to on the other side of the computer.
You see how ignorant you sound now?


-Ted

i am aware of all those things hell i pretty much go by this http://fc3spro.com/TECH/DRIFT/dori.html. which i believe you wrote a little bit ago.

as you stated "Also, wider rear tires usually makes it more tricky to throttle control due to more rubber." now since im using a 4port engine (t2 deturboed) for extra reliability, my power is waay down and not to mention torque. also as i have stated previously i have to have stretched tires to spin the 17x10 w/ federal 595 225 series tires at the rear. i should be using a smaller diameter wheel but it just looks funky

now til i blow up this engine then go v8 then ill choose to run non stretched tires but til then ill work with what i have.

As far as tire stretching goes I will simply say impractical for a street vehicle IMO. Why sacrifice real performance for this appearance or to be able to slide an underpowered car? Stretching a tire beyond it's limits is unsafe, a lot of tire shops will not do this for that reason alone. The fact that you would be raising the wear on suspension pieces, wheel bearings & the tires themselves is a reason in itself not to follow this style. I have to agree that if you can't fit a wheel with the tire manufactures suggested sizes, then it's not correct. Running a 215/45-17 on a 17"x10" wheels, with the rim exposed is asking for trouble. This just my view, so if tire stretching is your thing fine just don't impose this trend on others as being the right way to fit wheels & tires.

So basically you're insisting to run "big" wheels (which are heavier than properly sized wheels) and then run smaller tires just to get the proper (less) traction?

So you're basically doing it just for looks?


-Ted

This is honestly the real answer, instead of all that BS they try to feed you over on the other forum. It all boils down to looks, because most of the fools claim it's for drifting & they don't even drift!

i totally agree that tire stretching is impractical for street driving, i mean your talking about pot holes, construction zones etc. which can cause the tire to debead in some cases.

also i dont drift for the competition i drift for the fun of it and making the car look cool while its in motion simple as that, atleast for now. though at the same time dialing in suspension and still learning the car. i came from a s13 which is a really easy car to drift then went to an fc which is totally different and much harder.

hm, i might just give that some thought.

YES, YES, YES! I think the whole point of amateur drifting is honestly to look cool... People get into it because it looks cool. If you drift, you are considered cool. When you build your car for drifting, people often say that it looks cool.

To people in the drift scene, it makes sense to run bigger wheels and less tires to get the same traction as smaller wheels and normal tires because it makes the car stand out more. What drifters like is to get noticed, and be given compliments on their car/driving/personal style.... some will deny this, but I'll openly admit that what people think, and their complements make me feel good about myself. :D

Of course, there is the driving aspect of it, the "rebel" aspect of it, and a lot of other stuff that goes behind it all.

The whole reason drifting took off was because it was "cool", which to young people, along with having fun, is all that really matters.

In the end, I hope this post at least helps people understand the MENTALITY of stretching tires, and drift wheel fitment from a different stand point.

your XJ? really? dude dont throw cars around this argument and quit changing the damn subject. the wheels fit. as i have said before cheap or expensive coilovers will not let your suspension travel far enough to bottom out.

also its a simple yes or no question i asked. "so what youre saying is people should drive like theyre at a autoX event?" and you go throwing your suspension settings and techniques.

removing the rear sway bar makes the car less "snappy" when it exits the corner. makes the car a little more controllable rather than having the car whip back in to position.

i understand your type of motor sports. here's an example
makes dicks hard due to "performance"
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/PICT0140.jpg
makes pussy's wet cause shit looks ill
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/a...cars/jtp08.gif

simple as that. now if you have a better explanation feel free to throw it out there. THE WHEELS FIT.

*bzzzt*
Wrong...

Next contestant...


-Ted

:lol:

Holy fawk you are hopeless BOY.

1: You're a JTP fan boi. The only pussy getting wet looking at that car is yours.

2: The wheels DO NOT fit because you need to run improper width tires for the rims. Earlier you asked how stretching tires could possibly be bad. If you have to ask that question you've obviously never paid attention to a tire manufacturer's recommended sizing chart. And no - the chart is not what the "think" works, its based on road force testing to the speed rating of the tires, and running too narrow or too wide can cause a variety of issues.

3: This is not about X vs Y or someone's opinion on what looks good or makes fan boi pussy wet. This is about will the wheel fit with no stretch and the answer is that it won't.

4: If you don't understand the reason to check suspension travel for wheel clearance then well.......that illustrates your lack of understanding. When you installed the knuckles from you idol JTP - did you check clearance from lock to lock? You probably did because you're probably going to use the extended travel.................if you ever plan on hitting any bumps in the road (and aren't running 15K springs like the rest of the fanbois) you will use your full suspension travel - or at least more then you will if you simply drop your coils for cool pictars to wet other fan boy va jay jays.

5: I love drifting. Its alot of fun. Whats not fun is being a mindless follower. You can admit that the wheels don't fit now. And no - I'm not a mindless follower by jumping on the myriad of people disagreeing with you - I'm MINDFUL because I know the wheels the OP is asking about do not fit a stock bodied FC without a slew of modifcations and stretched tires. End of discussion.

Thank you come again!

I heard there is some asshole bitching over nothing


Bitch about this, 18x9 -5 235/40, 18x10 +0 245/40

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...c/IMG_1473.jpg


And 18x9 -5 225/35, 18x9.5 -5 235/40

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...c/IMG_1832.jpg



Now go ahead and bitch about how my wheels "don't fit" when the fenders aren't pulled much at all.























When you are done with that, go ahead and complain about how not proper my other car is. 18x11 -10 235/35, 18x12 -10 265/35

http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/x...c/IMG_2041.jpg





Keep in mind my car works better than yours ever will.

Here we go again...

I think I remember this...guy...from the evil forum.

*sigh*

I dunno...I have no problems driving my FC around as a daily driver even with the bazillion pot holes that just opened up due to the recent rains.
I doubt yours would ever make it out of one.

I dare you to try and drive that thing down here.
You'd get ticket and even impounded for no "recon".
You won't be able to even pass recon in the first place.
Go bitch at law enforcement about "proper" and "safe".

Hey, I give you credit for pulling the rear fenders...
Fricken FC rear fender wells are a pain to pull at all!


-Ted

Obviously you have some really odd special metal on your cars in Hawaii, because I did my fenders by hand by myself, and what the fuck are you doing driving into potholes, you have a steering wheel and unless your eyesight is fucked you can avoid them unless you are a fucking paraplegic



My car doesn't need to pass laws, it's actually cool enough to where cops pull me over to check it out not because it's a trying too hard car.

raugh out roud

1st of I'm pretty sure he goes by SlideAlliance on the other forum. 2nd did you honestly join this forum just to argue? 3rd your pics have nothing to do with the topic, your fenders have been altered. It's simple & not my opinion you have stretched the tires beyond the manufactures limits. If you like it, fine. If the set up works for you, fine. Does it actually fit, maybe. Does that make it correct, NO. You wouldn't make it down my street, without leaving half of your car there. Making something fit by making the car impractical is not the right way of doing things. With that said I'm not going to bitch. 1st it's your car, so do what you want. 2nd until I see some info from a tire manufacture stating that it's safe & acceptable to stretch the tires & you show me that your set-up proves to be better then another around the track, you are not making a good case. It's pointless to argue style, because everyone is different. Now arguing actual performance is something where data can be collected & reviewed.

Nah, I don't like beating metal till the paint starts to crack off...
I'd like to try and keep the car looking decently rather than some getto rig shit that you guys seem to think it's "cool".


Oh sorry I'm not like you Superman...
I guess you've never driven into a hole and never will the rest of your life...
Give me some of that crack you're smoking...


Yeah, cause you're a track bitch...
Yeah, yeah, I remember.
You just want other fanboi's to drool over your piece of shit.
I see you're still living in your fantasy world.
Like I said before, give me some of that crack you're smoking.

GTFO

Keep trying to slip some new reply in before you're banned.

No, seriously...


-Ted

I want to see the data in which it says the tires do not perform as well stretched vs. "fit" vs. bubbled honestly because all any of you are doing is bitching like a bunch of little six year old girls without any real proof. Formula 1 used to stretch tires more than they do now but it also seems like they were faster through corners back then.


If you don't like it, don't do it. The fact that you call it the "evil forum" just proves you are nothing more than another douche bag and this forum hasn't caught on to it yet.


I would much rather be a track bitch than just a regular bitch who gets his feelings hurt over nothing. I drive my car on the street when it's not snowing or I'm not actually making my car gobs better than your "proper" car. Keep digging for cut downs, they never worked in the past and I guarantee they aren't going to get any better with age for you.




As far as the metal goes, I could REALLY make you look stupid but you aren't worth anyone's time. Stretching and forming metal after it's been slightly heated means the paint doesn't crack or chip. Try to keep up simple minded.

oh well

Wow, last time I checked, tire engineers are running as wide a tire as they can slip on the wheels.
In fact, FIA put limits on tire widths.
There is no minimum tire width.
Go figure.

Another bullshit lie.
Stick to thinking you car looks pretty, cause you don't know shit about Formula 1.
It's a disgrace you even bring it up.
Don't do it again.


I don't like it.
I will not ever do it.
Deal with it.



Feelings hurt?
You're still giving yourself too much credit.
I still daily drive me FC.
That's all that matters.
It don't care what you say or what you think.
Keep thinking otherwise.


That's alright...
Shrinking and stretching metal causes paint to loosen from the metal.
DUH
The metal will peel off.
DUH
It's physics.

Oh sorry, you're smoking good shit, and you live in your fantasy land which you can do no wrong.
DUH

You bend the laws of physics.

Good for you!


-Ted

Ok Tire manufactures have been designing tires for sometime now & they all have min & max wheel sizes listed for each size of tire they offer & most have a recommended size listed. To say that stretching a tire beyond their recommendations is better is to say they don't know what the fuck they are doing! Now if they are wrong it's the first I have heard. I'm sure they have done the right testing above & beyond anything us as the consumer would ever be able to do. If tire stretching is all that great then why do the manufactures & installers not warranty the tires if they will even install them.

The manufacturers don't recommend stretching tires because they have to plan for retards. If you curb check hard enough it will break the bead and your tire will deflate. Crazy... good thing that can't happen with non-stretched tires. Oh wait...

I've got 215/40-17s on a 17x9.5 on the front of my car. And it sees the track every drift event we have locally (even been out of state). I've not had any issues at all with the tires doing anything out of the ordinary. Stretching the tire gives it predictable characteristics on the track, removing the ability for the sidewall to roll negates having to correct for it.

You guys are arguing shit without any backing. I personally have experienced stretched tires on the track. I have personally pushed them past their limits and had no ill effects. You can argue that it's a style thing (and it partially is), but trying to claim that it doesn't work is stupid. I've never had a tire shop tell me they couldn't mount the tire, or wouldn't warranty it because of the stretch.

If you want to argue the science of it, please explain how having the sidewall strong enough to support the weight of the car under the pressure of air is any different at a 45 degree angle as opposed to a 90 degree angle. Seems to me that at a 45 degree angle it could spread the weight along the sidewall just as easily.

Also, Chance is right. Avoid pot holes. Clearly we take more pride in our cars and pay more attention while driving. Your argument there seems to be more that you don't want to be proactive in keeping your car looking nice. P.S. not stretching your tires won't save you from curb checks and pot holes. You can still fuck up your wheels.

Let's take your stretch versus a similar car with the proper fit tires ACCORDING TO TIRE MANUFACTURER RECOMMENDATIONS and see who runs the faster time on the track.

Oh wait!
You guys don't that kinda thing!
Can grip drivers a bunch of dumbasses and retards, right?


Take pride in your cars?
Bondo...
Unpainted panels...
Mismatched paint...
Misaligned panels...
Wavy panels...
Stickers up the yang...
You gotta be kidding me right?
I guess you like auto body by BFH, huh?

It's funny we got a thread in the drifting section talking how getto drifting is...


-Ted

SofaKing did you used to have a white 240sx & a member of Boostedimports? Ok back to the subject I'm not arguing without backing it up. I can name at least 9 tire shops in my area alone that will not stretch tires at all & the ones that will mount them will not warranty them. So because you and other do this that I guess is proof of what? Why is that when I look at most of the professional D1 cars it doesn't appear that they have overly stretched tires. Like I said above you all are right & the tire manufactures are wrong. BTW would you trust a product if the manufacture didn't know what they were doing? Avoiding potholes & road debris is not a clear cut as you make it seem. On my way to work there are numerous potholes & can be hard to avoid if you didn't regularly drive that route. I would think that your first post would be some sort of intro not jump in to an argument. You say the members here aren't backing their argument, but your only backing is that you use this type of set on the track. Who ever said that the others here didn't have track experience. Hey if you provide real data from a professional (same car non stretched vs. stretched) & can find me a tire company that would suggest tire stretching I will with no problem apologize & admit being wrong.

1) I didn't say that running stretched tires makes you faster. I said, "Stretching the tire gives it predictable characteristics on the track, removing the ability for the sidewall to roll negates having to correct for it." Learn to read. Arguing with logical fallacies and misunderstood points doesn't make you right (I guess technically in your mind it does). I made a statement and I've put it to the test in the real world and it does exactly what I said it does.

2) @RETed Do you know anything about drifting? I liken it to rally from the standpoint of damage to the car. If you can afford to re-paint your car every event that's awesome. Most of the pros can't justify that. Not to mention that there are people that give anything a bad name and tend to try and look shitty because it's inevitable that they're going to destroy something nice. Drifting is a sport of style, looks fall into the style category.

3) @RotorDad There have got to be a bunch of morons in VA. Out here in Colorado we understand you can't warranty a tire for camber wear and drifting on them. Like responsible people we deal with the consequences of our actions and buy new tires when we need them. It's sad that they've resorted to denying warranties to stretched tire owners. No doubt related to dumbasses doing dumbass things. I'd be curious if there is a real reason behind this or if its just some old dude arguing how they never did it back in the day and technology hasn't changed and nothing has been made better since 1902. (I love these arguments, they remind me of the one I'm having right now.)

4) Sounds like you would get a ticket for following too closely. If you're driving at the legally suggested distance you can react to potholes before you hit them.

5) I'm not asking you to "admit you're wrong" I don't really care. I just decided to hop on here and argue because I'm bored and you're idiots. Find something where someone didn't hit a curb or a pothole and had problems with their stretched tires. I haven't seen any information to back up that it doesn't work well. I'm capable of saying that I'm sure having the sidewall vertical probably offers better performance (in a grip racing situation). But since you're all arguing about how you have street cars and drive them on the street, you're not pushing the tires to the limit anyway.

On another note. No, I have never been on Boostimports. Also, is it just me or does anyone else see the irony of both of your screen names?
reted, retard
rotordad, retarded
I'm just glad to be able to argue with people at length about things they have no experience with. I look forward to the incredibly insightful replies that I'm sure are coming.

Sidewall roll is not the largest variable in your suspension setup unless you're running 14-15" wheels with really tall sidewalls. A ~40ish series sidewall on a low profile tire for a 17-18" wheel doesn't have much flex. The difference between a fitted low profile tire and a stretched low profile tire is extremely low with regards to tire flex. The predictability you're experiencing is due to the smalelr contact patch being easier to control then the more grippy, wider, proper fitting tire.

Saying something works on the track doesn't make it right. I'm sure you've seen the mythbusters where they cut a car into bits, including the roof, duct tape it together and thrash the shit out of it.

Given the fact that you can duct tape a car together and have it survive a beating on a track (ie. you can stretch your tires and have them not pop off or fail) doesn't make it correct or the right way of doing things.........nor the best way.



http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....9&AID=10398365

Tire recommendations. Rim widths vs. tire widths. Sure, a shop can stretch tires on for you. Sure they can tell you THEY (the shop) might warranty the tire itself from falling off the rim or would help you if there was a problem - but THE TIRE MANUFACTURER doesn't warranty any tire installed on the wrong size rim. Phone any tire maker you wish and ask them, its just not true. The shop might be willing to help you if there's an issue but don't confuse that with the tire company actually warrantying the tire, or reccommending its installed on inappropriate sized wheels.

You know, there's no reason to be an idiot we can all have big boy conversations. We are all human. I'm sure you've hit pot holes. I've hit pot holes. Whoop dee doo. Is a pot hole going to just destroy a rim outright? Depends. It could happen with or without stretched tires. However, you must be able to admit that given physics and a tire's job, if there is rim epxosed -such as with a stretched tire- that there is a higher likelyhood damage can happen due to the rim being more vulnerable then when it is covered by a tire completely........yes?

Thank you for gracing our forum.

I haven't read a whole lot since my last post, but I think the pothole argument is ridiculous. First of all, I also live in Colorado, and I have yet to see a pothole here as bad as the ones on Ft Bragg in NC. I was driving one of the back roads in my 97 Prelude with stock wheels and tires and potholes covered the entire road, I'm assuming from the Abrams crossings or something haha. Anyway, yes it was night and vision wasn't the best, but I was dodging constantly and still hit a pothole and blew the stock tire and bent the stock rim. I would love to see what it would do to your stretched tire. To say someone hits a pothole because they're retarded or any other reason is retarded in itself. If you haven't driven the roads they drive how can you or Chance claim to know so much about their potholes or how easy they should be to miss?

Where in CO are you anyway? Maybe your potholes are harder to miss yet your skills compensate, but I doubt it.

I will not run a stretched tire on my car, but I'm not going to jump into the tire debate because it's pointless. I will admit that maybe running a stretched tire will help in drifting (I've never drifted so I can't make claims for or against), and not stretching a tire is better for grip racing and for the street in general, but neither side will concede to each so it's pointless to argue. This should be added to the list of things you don't speak about at the dinner table, along with politics and religion.

Oh, fun with names.
RETed- probably Rotary Engine and his name is Ted
RotorDad- probably because he loves rotaries and he's a Dad
So let's see, sofaking...retarded? Is that last part missing?

Let's see what brilliance you come up with for speedjunkie. I'm prepared to take namecalling, let's see if you are. Or we could just stop with the childish name calling. What do you think?

I also tend to have a real problem with people that sign onto a forum just to start shit. I'll say my goodbyes to you now for when Brian gets back on with his banhammer for spammers and trolls.

And completely negates the speed rating of the tire. Sidewall deformation caused by stretching not only results in premature tire failure, but also eliminates the speed rating as viable metric to ensure safety of the car.

For yours and other consideration I quote the following from individuals in the business of mounting as well as designing the tires:
I can go on if you'd like. But you get the issue. Stretching the tire really has no benefit beyond aesthetics (but last I checked cars were meant to be driven).

You do realize he's friends with some people that participate in such events and perform well without having to deform the tires until they are completely out of spec, ya?
On the contrary, see the above quotes from installers and individuals in the business. Even if they tell you it's bad and you insist upon it being mounted, and a family dies because you used your predictable vehicle behavior to slam into them, who's going to take the heat for all those who died? You? Or are you going to let the buck go to the individual that broke the law in mounting your tire?

Sounds like you have pristine roads and conditions to avoid all pot holes ever made.
Do you really want me to get the information I already posted from a tire designer to prove you have altered the tire dynamics to no benefit? Just curious.
Yes, because you're the authority on suspension setups... how?

what use is information without a source? as far as i can tell, everything you quoted could be from the guy at les schwabb
all the arguments in this thread seem to be speculation. i've never seen/read about a tire failure due to stretching, altho the internet is pretty vast. i have however seen a properly sized tire dismount itself on track during a drift run. that was some comedy

also please leave the whole grip racing performance aspect out of this.. no one is claiming a streched tire offers better traction, so i dont know why it keeps being brought up. i rarely see any drift people try to lecture about grip, and when they do im usually the first to rectify the situation lol

Yes it will, if you drift your car with a proper set up:

alignment
bump steer/angle adjustable tie rod ends
corner balance
proper wheel travel

I am arguing FOR stretched tires, yet even I can tell you don't have an in-depth understanding of suspension at all.

EDIT:

No it doesnt... the bump stop does... =)

We recently had a volvo in our shop that had under 60,000k on it.. one of the front struts was blown to all hell, the other one was fine.

When I took apart the blown side, guess what? It had no bumpstop! If, like you say, it was the spring that controls the shock travel, why did the strut blow?

Spring: cusions the initial impact
shock: controls the repeated movement of the spring so that the car doesnt bounce up and down all the time
bump stop: prevents the shock from bottoming out under full compression of the shock absorber.

One person's "preditable" is another person's "unpredictable".
Again, another subjective opinion.
You're in your own fantasy world if you think THAT'S objective.
I think you need to learn and comprehend...

Dictionary.COM
"objective" : not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased; intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.

Basically what you FEEL don't count as shit.

OBJECTIVE is who is quicker using a stopwatch.
OBJECTIVE is who is faster using a speed gun.

Oh shit, you don't want to do none of that...
I guess we will never know, huh.


Hey, I'm not the one CLAIMING drift cars look prettier...
Why don't you go reread your butt buddies comments earlier?


I think these guys seriously live in some pristine roads...

Ah, finally the truth comes out...
Got bored on the other forum?
Got tired of your fanboi groupies kissing your ass so much?
Or did you pique the ire of a mod(s)?
So this whole tirade was you morons just coming in here causing trouble...
I guess you don't mind being banned and getting kicked out of here, huh.


Useless argument...
You morons refuse to put that shit on a real track and put some times up.
We were talking OBJECTIVE.
Why bother?
All you're going to do is bitch and moan about how drifting is about style (SUBJECTIVE).
Waste of time.

Oh, and get it right.
I don't think anyone said it would not work.
I think the point was that it's NOT RECOMMENDED.
COMPREHEND.
You morons already call the tire manufacturers and tire engineers idiots...


So you're impying you drift on public streets?


I can't even give you a point on creativity.
You must've flunked art.
No wonder you just follow the flock like sheep.


Ah, another fantasy world comment...
Glad we could accomodate you.
Enjoy it before your ass is banned.


-Ted

i thought this thread was done. well, for me anyways lol

and max777 i agree with your statement but im soo underpowered to a point where i can keep the car low but the spring keeps my car at height. nowhere close to where bump stops should be or is. with that wheel travel is sufficient for my setup, my car doest squat enough to rub or bottom out going through a corner.

Defining objective with an emotional argument: awesome.

@classicauto without knowing my suspension setup you can't tell me what part of my suspension flexes the most under load. The tire did make a large difference to the handling of the car when placed up front. Previously before that I was running the same type tire on a 17x7.5 wheel. As for the pot hole thing, I've hit them when not paying attention. I've not hit one while paying attention. I adjust the steering wheel to accommodate for them while driving on the street. Obviously yes, if the lip of the wheel is exposed it's more prone to damage. I'm not saying pothole don't exist, I'm saying be proactive about keeping your wheels nice.

@speedjunkie probably the most valid argument yet. I live in Denver, driven in probably 20 states and 5 other countries. I apparently just don't find potholes as unavoidable as the rest of the masses. As for the name thing, I was pointing out the irony, not trying to come up with the wittiest thing I could think of. Just thought it was funny.

@vex Yes, I'd like to see data on how the tire is deformed (yes, technical data). I agree with Josh, throwing up some random quotes without siting the source doesn't lend itself to the viability of the argument. Another consideration is how much stretch. I've seen some pretty shady stretches, if you're trying to stretch too far I could definitely see it as unsafe. I've got about an inch of stretch on my tires. Meaning each sidewall is flexed out about 1/2 an inch. If you're laying it down at more than about a 45 degree angle I would imagine problems. all the sudden your sidewall can be driven on in the right circumstances.

@max I would imagine the strut blew because there is a range of efficient travel on a strut. Too high on the cylinder and it doesn't work well, too low on the cylinder and it will bottom out destroying it. Coilovers are a different story, they're designed to be able to adjust into their efficiency range. Mostly I see what you're doing here as an attempt to educate in the other factors of suspension and you realize this though.

@RETed You're getting way too worked up buddy. The handling of a car is definitely subjective. Every driver has a way they would prefer it to drive. I prefer my front tires stretched to achieve what I believe to be more predictable handling for my driving style. If you think I placed an argument in there saying that everyone that drives cars like it to handle the same way you read into it somewhere. Cause I didn't. I explained my experience with the words "I personally...". Also, what I FEEL does count for shit in this argument, because I FEEL control of the car. Sadly you can't objectively argue control of a car. It's past it's limits while drifting, it's for me to tell you if I have more or less control of the car. Next you're saying that your argument is based solely on performance and the safety aspect isn't valid. You would somehow be satisfied if a car performed better on stretched tires than on non-stretched tires? I think the difference would be small enough it could come down the the driver, then become a subjective argument about driver, track conditions, etc. etc. etc. Everything is subjective and up for debate. How did you jump to an implication of drifting on the streets? These are the logical fallacies I'm talking about. I don't drift on the streets, I think you're throwing in a point that didn't come from this argument about your opinion of drifters in general. The point that was implied was, "If you're going to lose minimal performance, would you notice on the streets since you're unable to drive at the limits of your tires legally?"

If you're going to argue objective, maybe you should keep your argument objective. Keep your preconceived notions of who people are out of it and argue the point at hand.

There are 2 arguments here. 1) The subjective matter of tire stretch vs. standard sizing. 2) The safety concerns of stretching a tire.

1) doesn't really have a winning side it's like politics or religion. In the end it is subjective and the driver determines if they have more or less control of the car one way or the other.

2) could have an outcome but I don't see any data to back it up one way or the other. So I can only argue from my own experience that it works and I have had no problems with the setup. Because I track my car, the tires don't last long enough to have to worry about longevity of the tire (speaking purely of front tires here since rears don't last an event). So any malformation that might be caused by driving on it for 50000 (or whatever they're rated for) miles I wouldn't have any information about. The front tires probably don't last me 30% of the warrantied mileage so I'll never know unless someone can post up a study of some sort.

I went to look up the rating for the sake of accuracy on my front tires and found this video. A test by Falken... with stretched tires, for grip. It's not a comparison of stretch vs. standard but I am looking at the tires 5sec and 18sec into the video and front and rear tires are stretched. Not huge amounts, but I can look at it and see the sidewall isn't vertical and the lip protector barely comes flush with the wheel. Whereas it's designed to overhang the wheel lip.

dear Ted, you lost...


Max.

I was going to put it up, but thought better of it. I'll have to hunt it down again, but it was on a simple site I found. Though, if you do not agree with something inparticular I've quoted from I'd like to know what and why.
Just out of curiousity as the geometry is deformed, tire pressure is altered (maximum tire pressure--do you still put in the recommended amount, are you eyeballing it, or some other means outside of manufacturers spec)?

http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/tirestuff.html

Furthermore stretching tires can run aground upon other design features such as Michelin's Stress Equilibrium Casings:
http://www.michelinman.com/glossary/#s

From an engineer:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=161928&page=3

I can continue if you'd like, but you get the issue (note I haven't said one way or the other besides saying that stretching is purely aesthetic).

Sidewall defelction from what I've seen from properly maintained tires comes to about 0.3 inches give or take depending on lateral G's. I can secure that data more than likely with little issue.

What do you mean by technical data? How much tire defelction is altered during a specific corner? Would you like it arranged by contact patch size, wheel size, or some other metric? You seem to demand specifics but be purpously obtuse when it comes to defining the metrics.

Would you like to see acceleration data, lap times, or some other metric? If you have an idea of what you want, I'm sure I can hunt it down for everyone to see. Beyond what I have already posted, what specifically do you have issue with? Is something stated that is not accurate or correct? If so, what is it and why?

Vex, you post up and clarify with sources for josh, then attempt to belittle me for asking the same question? You offered to post up the information from the tire manufacturers, when I asked for it... you proceeded to act like I was a moron for asking you to quote your sources. One of your quotes specifically said, "Without getting too technical..." I on the other hand would prefer someone to get technical instead of interpreting data that doesn't exist and hasn't been documented anywhere.

As for the data, any data would be good. I've not seen anything other than speculation about how this negatively effects anything. Though your quoted source in the last post (the engineer), said...

"This is done strictly for looks.For practical purposes, the sidewall is taken out of the picture, and the vehicle might as well be riding on solid rubber. (Maybe that's next?) I've heard of a couple of cases where the tire bead pops off during cornering - result is a ruined rim."

1) statement 1 contradicts statement 2. If it is only for looks, yet does something... then it's not strictly for looks. I personally find this to be exactly the response I want from the tires (on my drift car). No sidewall roll, no messing around, turn wheel, car turns. Its not terrible on the street either, I've dailied the drift car without issue.

2) if you haven't heard of a properly mounted tire bead popping off during cornering... then you probably don't spend much time with cars. I had a tire bead break just parked one time. I came out and 1 tire was completely flat. Filled it back up and it drove for many thousands of miles without issue or losing any pressure again.

So the engineer has proven my point, and not made a valid argument against it. No mention of safety or exploding tires, no mention of instant cancer to all those who drive with stretched tires. What I read was a statement of opinion about the process, mention of how it works, what the result is, and a negative scenario that can happen to any mounted tire.

The quote about the sidewall blowing out on an underinflated tire isn't even related. That's about any tire, stretched or not. Has nothing to do with a properly inflated stretched tire.

The michelen quote was unrelated too. If you're going to quote something do it about the subject.

Even a test that shows that a stretched tire will break bead more often than a standard mounted tire would be something. But currently I'm in the same situation I started, no one has shown anything negative besides pure speculation and opinion that it's bad, or doesn't work. This topic's arguments against tire stretching are falling short of proving anything at all.

Also, I notice how nobody made any mention of the fact that Falken stretched thier own tires in a grip test on video. Valid sources shown:
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