Stock top mount, beefed up...
 

I have been wanting to do this for a few years now. And i finally dove into it. I tryed 6 different intercooler set-ups on my last FC to find out what worked best. But that had a much larger turbo. I belive with the stock turbo, the stock intercooler is best. But needs some help to be optimal. Thats when i added the water/meth, wich is great. But the design of the stock intercooler bothered me some. the entry is great, but the exit is horrible. And the TB elbow is even worse. so i did this....

(welds are kinda sloppy, i was having a hard time stablizing the arc. Found out after my TIG torch had some major problems. time to upgrade!)

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...D/P3030041.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...D/P3050050.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...D/P3030043.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...D/P3050045.jpg

few more...

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...tercooler4.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...tercooler3.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...tercooler6.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...tercooler5.jpg

finished product...



http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...ntercooler.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...tercooler7.jpg




I did some "testing"... The intercooler made a HUGE difference. Throttle responce was VERY noticable. boost climbed much quicker. The entire powerband felt far better. I will be hitting a dyno at the end of this month to see what she makes. Im hoping for 240-250.

Any pics of the stock setup?

If I ever get my cfd program up and running (OpenFOAM) I may be able to actually give you flow numbers/what not for your modification.

not exactly sure what you mean?

very cool. i think most people underestimate the tmic, location isnt really that bad for under 350whp. at speed, you get plenty of air flow

Hell if you can weld like that, why not just build a completely custom IC? If you look at the stock IC, a lot of the scoop opening is wasted.. the opening is 12" tall, yet the IC is only 9".

If youve seen the ARC tmic up close, it uses all 12" of the opening (12" x 12" core i believe) and the tubes are positioned horizontal instead of vertical. end tanks are on the sides. that way the air doesnt have to take two extra 90 degree turns like the stock IC. im sure you can find a 12x12 core and fab something up? they would sell like hot cakes too

Before and after shots.

I thought about it. But i wanted to keep it stock appearing. At first i was only going to add a larger outlet on th top mount. But then i go a little carried away. I want to use all factory parts, just modified a bit for more power...

it was just a stock TII set-up... so any stock TII pic will do. but heres a few of the stock intercooler with some meth injection :) ...

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...Iinjection.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...injectionb.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...injectionc.jpg

Wow... You actually changed the flow pattern a lot by doing that simple modification (just by inspection). You no longer have turbulent flow right at the entrance into the throttle body which is why you feel more power.

Having that sudden bend is better than stock as it reduces turbulence from the flow hitting a dead end wall before continuing down the hole. If you wanted even more power (though I doubt you'll need to do it) you could have the flow angle more slowly into the throttle body. This will help with the turbulence being reduced--you could also rough up the internal structure of the tubes that lead to the throttle body to disturb the laminar flow. This will help maintain airflow velocity.

That's the neatest intercooler modification for the stock TMIC I've seen in a while. I'd much rather see something like this done instead of all the work needed for an FM or VMIC.

Neat to see? Yes.
Practical? I don't think so.

Not many people can weld cast aluminum.
Unless the OP is going to offer this mod to others, I don't see the benefits versus a well-engineered FMIC set-up.
I believe you can get an FMIC kit with a Made-in-China IC core for like $500 off of eBay?

I doubt this contraption will outdo an FMIC kit.


-Ted

Well, it's not like he's welding cast "iron" now is he? Cast aluminum isn't that bad if you've got a TIG welder, just set up the wave balance to "clean" the cast out a little bit as you're welding, and use good rod.

Honestly, if you've got a bit of time and some extra aluminium laying around, this would cost like $15 tops in rod/gas/electricity bill. (not including the metal pricing)

Last time I checked, a good, name-brand, entry-level TIG was going for a minimum $2,000...
Wow, wish I had that kinda equipment just sitting around.
If I had a TIG like that sitting around, there's a lot of other stuff I would be working on rather than something like this.
...but that's just me.


-Ted

Miller diversion 165 can be had for 1200-1500 depending on accessories (I'm foaming at the mouth for a Dynasity 200DX though)

Though I'm with you Ted. Most people can't/don't weld cast aluminum due to unknowns in thickness, metal type, and other problems associated with cast aluminum. It can be done, but prep is a pain if the aluminum is not fantastic.

I also think a top mount is an justifiable AIT cooling method for low to medium power levels (stock-300). For more power another setup can be used to better cool the charge; v-mount, front mount, h-mount, etc, etc, etc.

Nice work. I don't think there's anything wrong with using what you've got and making it better, especially if the only real cost is a bit of effort. For your setup I think it's smart.

As far as welding is concerned. Welding cast isnt much different to other aluminums. Just clean it up with a file and brush it clean with a stainless steel brush.

And no i havnt had it on a dyno. But I have used three different style intercooler set-ups on the stock turbo before this one (making this number 4). And from my own personal experience (my own set-ups and others), this is much better than a front mount. Most front mount "Ebay" intercoolers are poorly designed and hurt flow more than anything. look inside one and compare it to a well designed core and you'll see what i mean. Plus the widely used 2.5" piping hurts power more than it helps. 2.5" is MUCH to large for the stock turbo. again, most people also use a super large intercooler, further hurting the set-up. Now a correctly built V-mount will be better than what i did of course, but i dont see ANY front mount being better than a modified/aftermarket top-mount for the stock turbo.

Remember, one 90* bend is equal to 5' of pipe. Now add up length of pipe and all the bends, and the big core up front wich your air has to force its way through. what does that equal? a turbo that has to work twice as hard to make give the same amount of pressure. and a motor that has to wait twice as long to recieve it...

**also, if anyone was interested in me doing this to your top mount, PM me... thatnks for the idea.




I bought my complete set up for 1000. and at the time, there were atleast 3-4 other equal deals on craigslist. But i did A LOT of searching to find my deal, and i was patient onm finding the right one. If you want something, the deal is out there, you just have to find it.

and just to be clear, im not trying to battle it out with you. but you seem to have a little hater-ade in a lot of your posts. here and other places. never really see anything you like besides what you do... not open to new ideas???

myself personally... im tired of the same old, "just put a TII in it", "put a front mount", "get a GT35", ect. ect. ect.... FC's need a breath of new life. Everyone has the same set-up and the same 400 hp goal. ok i'll stop... im ranting a little here.

with those welding skills you could probably think of a good way to tilt the oil neck to not be as much of an interference.

im with you. i used to have a front mount, 20x9" core wiht about 300whp.. then i picked up a 10AE, didnt feel like cutting it up and just found a deal on an ARC tmic. sure intake temps to go up in boost, and i lost maybe 10-20whp up top, but it makes up for it in torque and throttle response. spool is a lot faster and the intake temps generally stay under 120F, unless you are doing a lot of 1st/2nd gear pulls, like in autox. But on track days it works out great, due to the higher speeds and more flow through the IC.. after 20min sessions, the IC is cool to the touch

Yeah, I was going to use the smaller 12a or renesis one at first and make something cool since they sit much lower. But when i had a FD manifold and TB on, the neck also has to be modified. And this is what i did then, Cut out a small flange and bolt it on. I am going to engrave my little logo in it also, but i havnt yet.

Thats why i add a little water meth! its such a perfect combo!!!

I'm just stating my opinion...
What you think of my opinion, well...

I mention the difficulty in (TIG) welding cast aluminum, because...
I guess you can liken it to welding cast iron, but most weldors will not usually bother TIGing steel / iron - most would either blast it with a MIG or just stick it.
Due to the porous nature of the cast aluminum, TIGing this kinda material is not for the faint hearted or novice.
Blowing holes through cast aluminum, especially of this thickness (thinness? Is that a word?) is very easy, unless you really know what you are doing - you make it sound like any Joe Schmoe off the street can do it?

NO used shit - most expert weldors will agree that used welding equipment is a gamble.
This does not get you a tank - more money to buy or rent one...
Filling the tank with gas - more money...
Cart - well, I guess you can lug the entire welder around if you got the muscles for it...

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/diversion_165/
The website lists it at a little over $1,600.
Looks like Miller dropped the power on their entry-level TIG.
Lincoln used to offer a TIG 175, but they don't list it on their website.
Miller used to have a 180 TIG?
http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/15631
But it looks like it got replaced by that 165.
20% rated duty cycle?
Geez...

Got bucks?
Go ESAB...
http://products.esabna.com/EN/home/a...ig_1500i2200i_

Back to the topic...
Seriously...
Not many of us can do such mods on their FC's like this.
That includes me.
That's my point.
Now, if you're going to offer the modded throttle body, couplers, and pipes for like $100?

I don't know why you're arguing about wrong pipe size and such?
That's not my problem.
If you're slapping on bad equipment on your car, it's your fault for doing so.

For the other guy who's claiming an aftermarket top-mount IC is superior...
Give me numbers.
"Cool to the touch after a hard run" doesn't tell me jack shit.

Sorry, I don't believe in butt dynos...
I can make your car "more responsive" just by changing the pressure in your tires.
Get the dyno numbers and we'll see how much of an advantage it is.
Right now, you're just telling us it-just-feels-better?
I'm just telling you to prove it.
Call me hater or whatever, but I wanna see numbers.
Sorry, I'm not into believing every Tom, Dick, and Harry's claims on the InTerNeTz...


-Ted

I couldn't agree with this statement more. I especially hate when people say, I added a Jacob/MSD/Crane CDI box and it's so much more responsive, starts and idles smoother, pulls harder through-out the rpm range blah blah blah blah..... generally what's failed to be mentioned is at the same time the CDI box went on, so did new plugs and wires:banghead: Yet all the credit is given to the CDI box..... I fricken hate that garbage. Show me a back to back dyno run on the same day, with the same map, and the same ambient temps then we'll talk. I say the same holds true for your 4 iterations of intercoolers. Yeah it's nice to be able to say, check it out, look what I did, it's so much more responsive. However, I want to see a back to back to back test of the stock TMIC, a FMIC with a REAL core, and this one. Then we'll actually know for sure.

As for the, cold to the touch after an auto-x run....... show me some datalog's please. I can show mine and I'll tell you exactely what my AIT's were throughout the entire run as well

Data= everything. I'll take one dyno run over a thousand ass dyno's anyday, the same goes for one test result vs a thousand expert opinions.

actually i do have some numbers...


these were posted over on the other forum a while back. Here is the dyno with the front mount.. BNR stage 3, boost turned all the way up, turbo was maxed trying to fill 2.5" piping. my IC piping runs were fairly straight too

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...o1_3_10_08.jpg



and this was with teh stock TMIC at 15psi, i did not have the ARC at this time:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...7/Jaminrx7.jpg

same setup except for a mild streetport from rx7world. Keep in mind, this is on the dyno with little to no air moving through the IC. and the tune was a lot richer. I am now running the ARC so the numbers should be even better


and it isnt cool to the touch after an autox session, its hot enough to burn you! lol But on track days on a road course it stays cool when you are actually at decent speeds. autox doesnt really work well with tmic location, not enough air flow

sent2to, sorry dont mean to jack your thread, but i think this is relevant

The only problem I have for dyno runs comparing TMIC's and FMIC's is that the TMIC will lose some of it's advantage due to heatsoaking, sincce the car is not in motion.

A big fan doesn't help the situation that much either.

Personally, I'd like to give the TMIC a little bit of love, since I never stoplight race or drag race anyone. I'm usually on the track if anything. For an AutoX, I'd still run a VMIC or a FMIC because of the staging time, unless you're spraying something to cool down the intercooler before you start.

I'd find an aftermarket hood that has an even larger surface area (Anyone have measurements on the Odura/Odula or Knight Sports hoods) and use a larger intercooloer like the ARC, HKS or RE 1.5 to help with the cooling capacity.

You can always overcomplicate the system by using nitrous sprayers on the TMIC when staging, then using water and meth to further cool the charge. That should easily combat heatsoak, it's just annoying to do for a street car.

And nitrous is illegal almost anywhere on any autox/racetrack.

:lol:
Off topic:
This is a local (VA/MD) shop that sells the 165 http://brwelder.com/indextemplate.cf...&SubCategory=3
Looks like they're redoing their site though.

I wasn't really talking about you, but since you asked...


What FMIC was this?
Do you ahve pics of the pipe routing?
How much boost was it making - I don't know what "boost turned all the way up" means.

Again, this doesn't mean jack unless you give me numbers...

Again, this doesn't mean jack to me...


-Ted

Really...
This is unfair.
Cause this doesn't help me IN HAWAII.

When I was down in Sac, I was surprised how discounted the welders were.
Well, it shouldn't be, cause any "industrial" town would generate a lot more competition due to sales.
This kinda stuff really pissed me off, cause it almost always doesn't apply to me in Hawaii.
The local authorized Miller and Lincoln shops all charge close to full MSRP on their welders.
Don't even ask how much tanks / gas / accessories cost...

And, no, I'm not flying down there just to buy me a welder.

For me, it's still going to end up costing over $2,000 for an entry-level TIG, tank, gas, cart, and consumables.

I'd still like to be cool like Jesse James and use ESAB products...
*sigh*


-Ted

Ted, any ideas for a better way to simulate the airflow of car in motion besides the big fan?

It would give more accurate numbers in the TMIC vs. FMIC debate.

I suppose you're just SOL Ted. Sorry. Maybe when I make it rich I'll pay the shipping fee for the 37 lbs TIG.... (just to add insult to injury: They offer free shipping....for the lower 48 states)

The best bet for simulating motion of a car is using a fan. There is no substitute besides just driving the car. And even that will be prone to error.

You can do what we've done on dyno days here. Grab a piece of cardboard and make "hood scoop" for the IC. Stick a big squirell cage fan on the rad support and you have a nice air flow into the IC and about as close as you'll get to simulating it being on the road - as far as flow through the core is concerned.

i have a few questions for the OP-
would you be willing to do this for some one else?
if so, would you charge? how much?
what all would you want me to send to be modified?
thanks

So basically, what you're sayin is that you're just pissed you cant do this and want to bitch about it...

...Seriously. :rofl:



In case you're bored:

Welding cast alum is NOTHING like welding cast iron. Welding cast is a bitch and a half. It requires you to preheat the material, keep it there during welding, and then let it cool down over a period of DAYS... oftem involving wrapping it in insulation, and other weird methods.

Do you know how much cast iron rod costs? Around $50 a carton... If they bought the rod, they need to use it to pay it off.

GTAW is NOT hard, maybe you just need more practice? Of course most people with even a little bit of sense will take a course or two at their community college before investing in an expensive machine like a welder.

I hear so many people bitch about how "They hate TIG welding". It provides the control of Oxy-Acetylene, but is so much more versatile. It's also one of the cleanest, and most relaxing welding processes out there. Every try doing overhead or vertical up SMAW? (Stick)

Buying anything used is a gamble, nuff said.

Can you even TIG for 2 min without pausing for readjustment? Most welds dont take over 2 min to do, unless you're doing some crazy thick metal, in which case you would buy a bigger welder. On a car, most metal only goes up to about 1/4 thick, or if thicker, it's normally very little sections of it. For the average hobby guy, a 20% duty cycle ain't that big of a deal, cause the wont even get near it half the time.

Case in point, this would be a perfect used welder to buy from someone who's upgrading.

lol... this thread turned out pretty cool.

Im not going to waste my time trying to prove to some guy over the internet by paying for dyno time. I know from my own experience what works and what dosnt. and i'll leave it at that.

and i dont know why your sweating over a ESAB??? lol... Lincoln or Miller are the only 2 respected welders in the business.

-Keith

No, now you're putting words into my mouth.
I'm just being honest - I wouldn't touch trying to TIG cast aluminum, period.
See below for why.


Ah, finally someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
I was going to blast whoever said cast iron is basically the same, but I figure I'd be nice about it...


I have a friend who does this for me.
Why bother learning it when he's the one with the welder, and he's the one that's good at it?
Currently, it's a waste of my time, as I'm busy taking care of other things that are of higher priority.


My friend owns an older Miller TIG 180.
It's rated at 40%, and he does work that requires it to be cooled down between welds.
He's already bitching about the 40% duty cycle.
I can't imagine cutting that rating in half would do to his welding work production.
He's already talking about stepping up to 220A or 225A rated TIG, but that's a big step up in price.
BTW, we do a lot of intercooler core installs with custom brackets.
Big IC cores suck up a lot of heat, some amps and duty cycles do count.
Most of our brackets are at least 1/4" thick...

This is getting way off topic now...
You're welcome to PM me if you want to discuss this further.
...or start a new thread.


-Ted

This just shows me how inexperienced you are.
Lincoln actually has a bad rap by some experienced weldors.
And if this is jab at ESAB, you have no idea what you are talking about.


-Ted

Wow, I guess I have no sense whatsoever. I bought a Sync 200 a bunch of years ago, read a book, talked to a few pro's and had at it..... I'm an idiot for thinking I could learn a skill myself.

You see, this thread is why I don't fab my own stuff... I have enough heart burn as it is :)

Geez, I make a two-sentence comment just complimenting the OP and this turns into a another 'show me the numbers' match. I would like to see some numbers as well but sometimes, it's just not a priority so too bad for the rest of us. I just thought it was neat; rarely does anybody do anything with the stock IC.

I will fabricate my own stuff if it doesn't include welding. If something needs to be welded, I know a good guy that always does our custom lab equipment. And yes, he's good with aluminium.

We did a project car that used two stock IC cores.
http://rx7cz.net/photos/fmic/

Haltech datalogs show it was within 3 degree F of a full GReddy FMIC kit for the FC3S.

Is that what you want?


-Ted

lol... your right. im a newb.

except for my certification in: GTAW, FCAW, SMAW, GMAW, Oxy-acet., ect. ect. in stainless, various carbon steels, aluminum... in ALL positions and unlimited thickness.

Im no garage welder. I know what im doing. And if you want to go ask 30-40 year veterans what they weld with. Or just drop by a job site and see what they are using. Red or Blue...

... sucess is mine. =P