I need your old fucntioning stock coils
 

If anyone here has been following my dyno adventures, you'll probably recall me saying that Dave and I made huge gains in power with small changes to AF's in the 10-5-11.5 range as we crept up to .8L or 11.7-11.9. We believe this is due to the ignition system being sub-par in terms of spark current and energy. I'm running 4 LS1 coils (D580's) and for a long time they were considered an upgrade from stock and on par with the stock+CDI box setup. Unfortunately I have yet to find any back to back dyno graphs or true data concerning these or other coils. I'm frankly tired of internet legend and ass dyno's and want to put an end to this once and for all. Here's my plan

Over the winter I'm changing a few things on the setup including injectors and coils. Which ever coil I decide on will be the one that we tune with until the L's and turbo's are dialed in, most likely a new Bosch coil. Then the fun begins and the bullshit ends.

Over the winter I'll be modd'ing my harness to accept a DTM connector for the ignition setup so we can swap coils and plugs in a matter of minutes while on the dyno. I'll also be building my own spark plug wires and they will all be of the same wire so no one can butt in and say, dude, your wires sucked, that's why X coil didn't do as well, that's what I use and they're AWESOME! There will be none of that at the end of this test. I thought about contacting someone with an occiliscope, but I think real workd results will work better.

I plan on testing -
Stock 2nd gen coils
Stock 3rd gen coils
Stock RX8 Coils
D580 coils
D510 coils
and a set of top secret Bosch coils

My car will be the test mule and the testing will be done at my expense. I will NOT be giving any road/ass dyno feedback. The only things that I will be able to provide are back to back dyno sheets with in a few minutes of each other, comments on idle quality and starting ease. We'll probably do two runs on each coil just to make sure the results aren't some type of fluke. In other words, actual numbers to despense with internet lore.

So, here's what I have/what I need. I have a set of stock 2nd coils, the D580's, and I'll be fronting the coin for the Bosch coils. What I need from you guys are your old stock 3rd gen coils, old stock RX8 coils, and if anyone is feeling generous, OR if you're planning on upgrading to the D585 coils (LS2 Yukon Coils - I've been told by a few people that the D510C coils - latest gen LS7 engine - outperform the D585's) perhaps you can front for the D510C's and I can test those for us. Of course you'll get them back after the test and I can throw in the connector housings, pins and seals that you'll need to do the wiring for fronting the cash for these coils, probably ~$20 worth of electrical cripe. No chinese knockoffs though, Tyler ;) They can be purchased from RockAuto (returnable withen 30 days) for ~$68 each or AC-Direct (don't know thier return policy) for $62 I think...

So, who's feeling generous for the greater good of the community?

Fantastic idea, and the sort of testing I love to see. I'd love to see an MSD wasted spark leading setup tested, also, in a couple of different configurations (both a pair of single coils, and a stock 2nd gen leading coil, which is the setup I've used to good results.).

Are you going to be playing with the AF ratios to each setup's advantage, or testing across a flat ratio? I'm not sure which would give a better view of the coil's spark energy, but if it were me, I'd test at some flat AF ratio, and then tune for best power, and record both runs.

Looking forward to seeing the results!

Brian PM me your address i'll send you my stock FD coils

Hey maybe i'll just send you my nock off crap and you can test that too :lol:

Thanks! Yeah, I'm kinda tired of the, I swapped these coils in and they feel great! Cool, what was the ACTUAL gain?

The plan is to run the Bosch coils and tune with the new injectors to .8-.82 L and leave the fuel curve alone and also turn off the Wide-Band control. The only adjustments that will be made will be to the Dwell settings becuase I think it's unfair to run say the D510C at the retardedly low dwell time that the Bosch coils need. So before I go to the dyno I'll contsruct the proper dwell tables and setup information so that we can change back and forth between wasted and non-wasted spark.

If someone has a reliable CDI box that they want tested, I can test that as well. I however don't want to take the huge coin hit in buying a box and then reselling it at half the price. So if you're interested in having that tested and have a spare box kicking around, I can do that as well. As for the difference between single double fire and double singe fire coils, I don't believe it would make a substantial difference in a CDI envirornment.

We're now up to 14 additional dyno runs for testing purposes :D Dave's gonna love this :smilielol5:

I'm interested/excited to see the results as well. People on LS1Tech were picking up huge gains going from the D580's to the D585's in back to back dyno's. As I said before, the D510C's were documented to produce more energy. I haven't seen the documentation but someone I know and trust has so if anyone is thinking about the D585 upgrade, consider the D510C instead (and then buy them and send them to me). Same basic price.

:lol: Will do Tyler and thanks much.

FWIW, I've been doing as much research as possible trying to get actual numbers on the D585's and the D510C's. I have yet to find any, but what I have found is a bunch of LSX guys whining about the MSD coils dying quickly. They're supposed to be a direct drop in replacement so the dwell time should've been taken into account. Just something to think about my friend.

If the MSD's die i'll just go to 4 D595's (or whatever is the top of the line then). With as much driving as i do in the 7 i doubt they'll die for a while.

I'll be happy to lend you an MSD 6al box I have sitting around.

Sounds great to me. Thanks much!

Now all we need is some RX8 coils and a set of D510C's

LS2 coils will outperform stock rx8 coils in every way btw.

I use them in my turbo 8. I had to have the dwell adjusted to 5ms for the LS2's since I'm flowing well over 300g/sec MAF readings. If the dwell was left alone, I would get massive misfires.

The stock rx8 coils burn out rather quickly. A lot of people change them every 20K miles just to be safe....and that's for NA 8's.

Sounds like a fun project you got going though!

Thanks man, it will for sure be interesting to see the results.

For a long time the RX8 coils were actually recommended for some N/A rotaries and to me for my project becuase of thier short dwell time. Rotaries only allow for a short dwell time. 5ms is too long for the D580's, you're at something like 90% duty on them in the higher revs on a 13B, factor in the renni's higher redline and it gets even worse. I'll have to do the math when I have the time, someone else can if they'd like, it's like this - 9000rpm = how many spark events and how much time between spark events, don't forget that the coil is discharging for a set amount of time as well, and how much time before the next spark event. Divide that by your dwell and you have your ignition duty cycle. I can tell you that at the higher RPM's 5ms is WAY overworking D580. Yeah it's giving out great spark at that dwell time, but it's being overworked. Now maybe the D585's can handle it, but for how long?

Outstanding project, which I will be watching very closely. A couple of years ago, I did some work with GSL-SEAddict over on "the other" forum, trying to work out a better system for the FBs.

He designed the "transistor trick" box, which translated the signal from the 1st gen ignitor into something useable by the 2nd gen ignitor, which then triggered a 2nd gen leading coil pack for direct fire.

The difference in power was amazing, but the coil packs had a tendency to burn up on us after running them for a bit (sometimes a long time, sometimes a day or two). But alas, we never did get any dyno results.

If someone could come up with something that gave that kind of results along with dependability, I'd be all over it. I have long been a believer that there is an amazing amount of power hidden in our ignition systems.

Best of luck with your project! :)

.

5ms is a 75% duty at 9000. That's assuming no time spent in discharge. In practice the duty versus available charge time would be higher. On the other hand, very few rotaries are living at or seeing 9k.

On the other hand yet again, this is where the Mercury coils shine. Designed for a 2-stroke engine they'll achieve 90+% saturation in around 3ms. If you want a hot inductive coil well suited for a rotary application this is where you should be looking.

I agree with you, but we need to include the discharge into the calculations which has a big impact on the real world duty cylces.

While some engine aren't living there, if there are rotaries up there, that's where they're going to need the best spark, boosted engines especially.

If you have a QuickSilver part number, I'll look it up, get the apps, and head down to the marina and talk to the head techs and see if they have had any issues with those particular coils.

Also, do you know if they will saturate to the point of auto-discharge? I was talking with WE3 about these, if the tech's like them and they won't auto-discharge, I'll test 'em out too, but this is about the last of them I think ;) we're up to
2nd gen
2nd gen +MSD6
3rd gen
RX8
Quicksilver
D580
D510 or D585
and the Bosch
That's 14 extra dyno pulls and alot of time during the day to swap all these fuckers out. 10-15 minutes each is 1.5 - 2 hrs just swapping coils around..

The Mercury coils don't auto-ignite. Every time I've looked to source them from a marine dealer I've seen the "boat" markup. 034 Motorsport is a good reliable place to get them from for a not to out of this world price.

Yeah the marine world mark-up is outrageous. I have wholesale accts setup though so if you can give me an application or an OEM partnumber, wait.... are you sending me the coils?

No.

339-883778A01 220/225/250 3.0 DFI

Brian, I am the one that was talking to billy (WE3RX7) about the coils Ludwig gave me a link to them I will buy a set for testing purposes if you want to do it.

I was just going to say the same thing. ;) If you can get a decent deal worked out I need a set of 6 for a 20B anyway.

Hmmmm... wholesale hookup???

Yeah what the hell, I'll test em out.

However, still looking for a set of D510C's so if anyone is looking to do the Yukon LS2 upgrade, buy the D510C's as they are a better coil anyway and we can test those too, however, I think that's about it though. That's a LOT of extra dynoing, I've already logged 101 pulls on this car :smilielol5:

Yeah I remember all that, Bill sent me the link from you from Ludwig, I thought Ludwig was going to send them to me from you etc etc.... just got a wee bit confused though, happens when you're oldER and sleep deprived ;)

Cool though, it'll be interesting for sure for a few reasons, pure 2-stroke, has to fire some nasty shit fuel etc etc.... I'm really curious about these Bosch coils though, they are supposed to be an upgrade from 2nd Gen + MSD6. Crazy right?

OK I will order a set when are you planning to do testing? I can get the coils back at DGRR. I will need you to PM me your Address so I can ship them to ya.

Wow! I get lost for a few months and Brian has a coil test under way. Great Job Brian!

By the way, in your original post you seemed surprised that you were getting power gains at leaner AFRs, this is completely expected. If you do combustion research, you will see that 0.85-0.90 lambda is optimum for spark-ignited applications. This is independant of boost (although higher chamber temperatures will skew the curve slightly to the rich side). With the cooling you have on that beast, I would expect 12.8-13.2:1 to be your optimal AFR.

Keep up the good work! It will be very useful to the rotary world to have a dyno-proven comparison between the leading ignition solutions.

Like you said, the whole 'my new ignition feels really fast' thing doesn't really prove a thing. Case in point: I was firmly convinced that wiring the 6PI ports open on my '86 was a major improvement in power. Timing it with the G-Tech indicated a significant decrease in low end that resulted is a slower 0-60 time. I was wrong about the major improvement, no mater how sure I was about it.

:banghead: Sorry I missed this.

Planning on doing the testing in the early pary of April.
I'll definately bring them to DGRRX
I'll PM ya in a bit with the shipping addy. Also going to need whatever connectors are needed to feed them power, gnd, and signal. Do you know what plug wire ends they use? Please say LSX


Yeah I know, but in the pig rich arena, like low .7L's or 10-10.5, when we went up a touch from there, we made big gains in power. More so than other turbo rotary's would have jumped up. Dave and I went to a few other dyno sheets from other cars and my jumps were much more than thiers when making similar changes to L

I think 13.2 (.9L) is really pushing it on pump with no AI on a turbo. @ 13.6 (.92L) without adjusting the timing we warped a few Apex seals. .85L is about as high as I'm willing to go.

Thanks man, I agree, we need something like this across the board. I've seen some RX8 to other coil comparisions, but I think this will be interesting to say the least.

Been there too. I want a G-tech, what do you think of that little thing? Accurate, repeatable?

About the only thing that I would listen to objectively would be idle quality/stability and ease of starting. I'm really looking forward to testing the Bosch coils, the D510C's and the stock FC with the MSD box. I'm not sure where I want to put my money on that one.

In speaking with my MoTeC contact I mentioned this little experiment and he offered to loan me his M&W CDI box with 4 quicksiler coils :D

so now we have -

Stock FC Coils
Stock FC Coils with an MSD 6Al box
Stock FD Coils
Stock RX8 Coils
D580 Coils
D585/D510C coils
QuickSilver coils
QuickSilver coils with an M&W CDI box
and of course, the top secret Bosch Coils

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1265062967

Damn that's going to be a long day, I better get a hotel in PA

Very interested to see the results!

Not to discredit what you are doing but it would seem you have well more than one days work before you. To interpret results from each would require the time to optimize for each setup. Also, at your current power/boost level the true benefits of a CDI probably aren't going to be noticed over a good inductive coil. Just my .02.

Well, I want to get all the dyno's done in one day to keep the conditions the same. The interpretations can be done later on. I'm also of the mind that the tests should be done citeris paribus - all other things being equal meaning that the fuel/spark curves shouldn't be altered at all. Whichever setup comes out on top (or if there are two that are within 1.5-2% of each other) we'll spend the time to optimize a little. I really think I'm giving up a little on top for a few reasons, I want to get the coils out of the equation first.

I actually kinda hope its NOT the M&W setup though, I don't wanna spend that coin ontop of the bosch coils :rofl: I agree though that the torque levels that I'm out aren't really a requirement of a CDI system. Not to mention the internal dynamics of the rotary are also more conducive to an inductive spark, but that's my theory.

Mine too! Hope to see it proven out.

Brian I recieved the merc marine coils that ludwig likes to use just let me know when you want me to ship them to ya for the torture the FC coil dyno day.

Working with a GT35R FD right now that is running these coils with a PFC. The PFC means we have no choice but to run wastespark, making this an ideal candidate for the Merc coils. Car has been running the coils for about 2 years with a 16 psi pump gas tune. We installed an FJO water injection system and we currently have the car running 20-21 psi spraying 50/50 water/meth at a max rate off 800cc total flow and the ignition has peformed flawlessly at anything leaner than 10:1. When I first started roughing the high boost tune in it was pig rich and we had bad breakup. As soon as we leaned it out enough to get the wideband actually reading 10+ it cleaned up and ran great. Hope to have the final tune and dyno numbers this week.

Programmed charge time on the coils is 3mS up to 4000 rpm. The next break point in the PFC is 8000 and I have the charge time ramped up to 3.5 there.

This is the first experience I've had with these coils and any amount of water injection. We've run cars to around 24 psi with straight meth on these but I was very curious to see how they would react with the water. I'm very pleased to say the least.

Where did you mount the coils on the FD? space is limited. How much do you charge to tune a power FC? I have a good tune on my FD at the moment but I think it could be better. how is the drivability of your tune on the power fc compared to the haltech

Sorry to highjack the thread....

Mounting the Merc coils in the FD is a PITA. I'll need to take a pic. Basically, they're lined up in an aluminum bracket and sit under the master cylinder at an angle of about 30-40* running down from front to back. Only place I could find to mount them after a whole lot of time spent staring at the car. The fit ended up being nice and functional but you now have to change the plugs from under the car.

I like working with the PFC for the most part. Driveability ca be quite good. The PFC has some major quirks (minimum of 1.8 mS injector on time regardless of what you actually program makes it fun to run large primary injectors) but once you have experience with it and knowledge of the Datalogit interface it's a very good system. I'd prefer a full standalone but it is what it is.

Alright, Almost a month and things are coming together.......... :rolleyes: I should have my new bosch coils early next week and I can mod my harness. I've got a set of FC coils, a set of FD coils and igniter, Merc CDI coils and an M&W Pro14 box - here's what I need and some of you will have PM's shortly

I would LOVE to have part of an FD harness that has the connector for the ignitors and the coils. I'll check again, I SHOULD have this but I'm not seeing it.

Merc coils and connectors

RX8 Coils and connectors

a second set of Denso coils - D585's if they are NOT the auto ignite or a set of D510C's if someone is planning an RX8 upgrade.

MSD 6A box for the FC coils

Looking to be on the dyno 4/10 to torture these things.

Not seeing it, anyone have it?

On thier way to me, thanks MC! BTW - what did you pay for those? Took the PN Chris supplied to my wholesaler, thier cost is ~$60, mine would be ~$80, list is ~$120 No connectors like 034 has though. Would need to source those seperately. Waytek should have them, it's just a matter of figureing out which one it is

Still need, where are you Bill?

Still need, where are you Bill?

On it's way to me, thanks much Rotary Prophet!

034 has the Merc coils for $72 with the connector. Imagine that's where MC got his. You're seeing what I've seen, inability to find a less expensive source so that I can offer them. I just send everybody to 034.

I've got one more place to try, they usually set me up a little better. Out of curiousity, what tyoe of connector is that? Looks like a metripack 280 series.....

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/780

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...&wx=300&hx=300

Gotcha, seems a little steep but my normal supply houses (Waytekwire and TerminalSupplyco) don't seem to stock them.... interesting

034 motorsports is where I got them C. Ludwig was kind enough to reccomend them and provided the like to me. it seems like a odd place to buy marine parts cheaper than anywhere else

If they're buying them from QuickSilver directly as opposed to buying them from a wholesaler, they can get GOOD pricing. Probably $45each I'd imagine. Cost from the distributor is $60. Or, they believe in economies of scale. From what I know these are pretty popular with the VW, Audi crowd. I just wanna see how they stack up to my Bosch's. The Boschs are the most expensive, so I'm gonna be pissed if a $60 Merc coil @ ~2/3's the cost does better :rofl:

Then again the Boschs are TINY! So that has it's own advantage. FWIW I spoke with Paul today. Everything shipped so I should have my new coils/injectors on Monday. I'll snap some pics of all the coils that I have collected thus far.