Yield Strength (MPa) Ultimate Strength (MPa) **From Wiki**
Structural steel ASTM A36 steel 250 400
Steel, API 5L X65[1] 448 531
Steel, high strength alloy ASTM A514 690 760
Stainless steel AISI 302 - Cold-rolled 520 860
Cast iron 4.5% C, ASTM A-48 130 200
Titanium alloy (6% Al, 4% V) 830 900
Tungsten No Yeild 1,510
Silicon carbide (SiC) N/A 3,440
Sapphire (Al2O3) N/A 1,900
Silicon, monocrystalline (m-Si) N/A 7,000
http://www.bssa.org.uk/cms/Image/Com...on%20steel.gif
Structural steel at different temperatures.
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/.../lamont2-8.gif
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/st.../4003_11lo.jpg
http://nanopedia.case.edu/image/stre...0curve%204.jpg
It's pretty accurate in how you are able to read them.

These however are all in elongation. You'll notice however that when you have a rather high plastic deformation stress you'll have a much smaller strain alotment. This means that the higher the stress the material is able to withstand the less able it is to deform under load.

I'll have to break out my old school materials book in a little while.
More info:
http://www-g.eng.cam.ac.uk/125/now/m...IE/charts.html

I wish I could understand this stuff :( I am severely mathematically challenged :rofl:

Just look at the graphs and pay attention to the numbers on the bottom. The numbers on the bottom is the strain which for all intents and purposes is change in length/original length. So if you have a .0002 it means there was an overall increase in length during the tensile (stretching) testing. The elastic deformation is the stress that can be applied to the material and still have it return to it's original form and shape. Plastic deformation is what occurs when you exceed a specific point and there... wow, I typed this last night and completely forgot about it.

Anyways there's a point where the material will always return to normal, anything beyond that point the material will deform and eventually break.

Stainless is kind of a shitty material to work with and when you heat it, it likes to move ALOT. WAY more than any other allow that I've ever welded. I dunno, maybe I'll give the ceramics a try, but not anytime soon.

SOOOOOOOO - Got some interesting news from Tim today - apparently my injectors weren't the culprit. It's really a shame that my FP sender puked that fateful day. It could've been a fuel pressure issue all along. I do feel better knowing that the injectors are ok though. Even though I might be replacing them with some better spray pattern injectors. This is of course if I can't get that silky smooth idle back. Whatever, time will tell. So I think I'll be picking up my cryo parts on Monday which means back to breakin by the end of next week? Maybe..... Or maybe I'll start my hood instead :devil:

That's true. Stainless has a high heat elongation coefficient, something to consider when choosing materials. You can actually get some stainless without high heat elongation. Hell, you could get some Nickle based alloys if you really wanted to.

Hmmm? What have you narrowed it down to then? Didn't you have the fuel pump replaced when you were at the dragon?

Yup, the RP pump that I replaced YEARS ago starting having low fuel pressure when we entered NC. We stopped, up the pressure and things seemed ok. Then we met up at the damn and whenever the secondaries came on, the thing fell on it's face and FP went to like 15psi with the fuel pump screaming like a stuck pig. So that first night we pulled the pump and found the sock pretty well clogged. So we let that sit in acetone overnight.
The next morning we reassembled and went to the show. The sock was flowing MUCH better. Tried boosting on the way there and the same thing happened. As soon as the secondaries came on - splat. The pump started screaming again so we figured the pump went bad. So luckily Bryan from RotorSports Racing was having a special on the cosmo pumps so I bought one and myself, AJ, (duffman) and Scott (TurboIIRotor) pulled the entire rear of the car apart (for the second time in 12 hours) to replace the pump and sock right in the middle of the show :rofl:

So we get the thing back together and the same shit, as soon as boost hits, the pressure goes to nill. Now I'm pissed, the world turns red and I start looking for virgins to rape and pillage. Missed the Dragon run and head back to the cabin. At this point it's either the reg or the filter. Reg is fine, filter is CLOGGED. So we make an hour drive to the nearest advanced auto to get a phord 3/8 barb EFI filter, then to Lowes for some 1/4"npt to 3/8" bard fittings and back to the car to put the thing together. FINALLY fuel pressure. So we went to the banquet, and drove the dragon the next day in the rain, which was still a blast.

Car ran great all the way home and it wasn't until a day or two later that the fuel pressure started getting a little low, nothing to cause concern but fluttering a little lower than usual. I bought the Marren washable stainless filter and put that in saving the fittings and hose from the EFI filter just because. and now everything is fine again.

Few weeks later I order a bosch 044 pump and intank sock and install that. MOTHERFUCKER was that thing loud. PAINFULLY loud and it seemed to get louder the longer you drove it but then would quite down after you restarted it. Apparently that's "normal." The pump pissed me off to the point that I changed it out. When I pulled that pump sock was getting clogged. Now I'm pissed again and drop the tank and clean it out by hand. Wiping everything down with a paper towel and it was coming out as white as it was going in. Now I'm confused. Whatever, I clean the cosmo sock, put that back in the tank that I'm convinced is clean, set the FP and head off to the dyno. My FP sender pukes on the way to Dave but it was set before so I'm happy. Then the thing goes way lean on the dyno and we can't figure out why. We start pulling lines and making sure everything is as it should be. I remember now when we pulled the feed line off at the tank there was ALOT of pressure between the pump and the filter, didn't think much of it at the time. We can't figure out what the problem was so we put everything back and I head home. I used the overall fuel trim to add 10% across the board and had to bump it to 15% and then 20% to keep the lambda's in check. What was happening was the sock and the filter were getting clogged, again. I found this out when I got home and pulled the filter, poured in some acetone and none came out. My thoery, the bosch flows so much more and doesn't drop off at the higher pressures that it was able to just force fuel through the filter but the cosmo pump couldn't.

So I cleaned that washable stainless filter, bought a new cosmo sock, put a new sender in, SWAPPED FUEL TANKS and a week later went back to Dave. Did the comp test and found two low bounces in the front. We went through the entire map and the datalogs and found nothing wrong. So now the anger has turned to depression and we left. Driving home I'm thinking fuck this car, this is retarded, 4 motors in 4 months? BOOOOOO, this car is getting jack standed till Oct when I do everything else that I want to do. About 2 minutes later a Prosche Carrera 4S comes racing down the on-ramp, my buddy made a comment like, there's a car you could beat up on when the motor's put back together. Fuck that, I'll beat up on him now. So we start fucking around and I started pulling on him in 4th @ ~120 before I almost ended up underneath a tractortrailer. Now I'm thinking, fuck that Oct bullshit, this engine's getting hauled tomorrow. And it was, within 4 hours a close friend and I pulled the engine, stripped her to a shortblock and had her in the back of my truck. 2 days later I was back @ KDR so we could break her down and see what happend. That's when we found the two warped Apex seals. So I left everything with Dave for cryo and now I'm planning on snagging those this week.

So I know the filter was clogged while on the dyno. I also have come to find out that the ethanol is breaking down fiberglass fuel tanks in the marine world. 5-6 years ago when I started restoring the car I dropped the fuel tank. It was all sorts of nasty so I went to a machine shop, had them boil it out and epoxy coat it. I'm almost certain it's the ethanol breaking down the coating and clogging everything up. I'm AMAZED the injectors are fine.

So yeah, that's my story, ethanol blows moose. Cost me an engine.

OMG you know AJ? My condolences..... does he talk shit about your FC too? :rofl:

Nice recap - it wasnt as painful reading it this time :)

So where are you now though on the FP issue?? If it was the epoxy getting chewed and drawn through the filter, wouldnt swapping to the other tank solve your issue... or did you swap the original tank back in?

Both of my tanks are slated for the dump. I had one as a backup but its pretty rusted out. We're restoring a close friend of mines TII. The previous owner installed a few amps with sheet metal screws that punctured the tank. The original plan was to weld the holes shut and then coat the inside of it. I welded the holes shut with stainless and I'm using that tank now. When we need it for his car I'll figure out if the larger S5 tank will fit in an S4 car and buy a new tank...... Or I'll do a fuel cell. Although, in talking to Tim Marren, the ethanol is breaking down some fuel cells too and releasing the sand that they use for molding, so everyone seems to be getting anally violated. Hell, I just today swapped a clogged fuel filter on my buddies Volvo. She'd stall out at the higher rpms. Literally die out on the highway.

So after breakin I'm going to poll the pump and the filter one last time before the dyno. Pretty confident I got it all though. Also going to flush all the lines to make sure there is no residue in them either. Nightmare. Cost me an engine, 3 auto-x's, 2 trackdays and I don't know how many strands of my sandy blonde hair :rofl:

I have an extra 8 gal fuel cell right now, maybe I'll keep it on tap after the troubles you're having - i was going to get rid of it, lol...


Also - I was not aware the S5 tanks were larger, hmmm learn something new every day :)

Fits like a charm...

Only thing is you can't swap the S4/S5 sending units/pump holder + straps (although, i didn't try to swap straps so Im not 100% on whether S4 works with S5). The S4 is shorter then the S5 as thats where it gains most of the extra volume.

So keep the senders and tanks and straps with the same series and you're golden.

:rofl: Constantly.....

When we were leaving DGRR Shar (the guy that drove from San Fran decided to join us heading back to NY) and we told AJ jokingly he should join, he actually did! Spent a night at my place, rode around in the FC a bunch, funny, after I pulled on him relentlessly on the highway the smack talk has stopped ;) AJ's good people though, helped me out a bunch with the FC while everyone else was drinking themselves gay, and not BAW gay either.

Extra 2 gallons and they're cheaper to boot. Best of both worlds.


Thanks Joe! So here's a question for you. The top mount dealy..... is that interchangeable? Meaning can I transfer my pump and sending unit and the top mounting piece to the S5 tank or do I need to source one of those as well? I know the fuel lines are slightly different (not a concern as mine are all -6AN stainless tube) and the wiring is different (again, not a concern becuase all of mine is redone anyway) and I believe the sender is different ohm'age (don't car, programmable gauge, although if it's deeper I'm screwed..... damn ) but is the gasket pattern the same?

Come to think of it, my buddy had an S5 before he bought the S4 TII so maybe I'll just grab that from him and see.

As for the straps, that would be a bummer if they were slightly longer. I guess I'll find out through the parts fiche though. Thanks a bunch Joe :icon_tup:

The mounting pattern for the "cover" piece is the same, the main difference is the length of the assembly. But bolt pattern wise they're the same where they attach to the tank.

Yeah like I said on the straps I'm not 100% sure....the last time I did that swap was a few years back on a resto for a customer and I don't recall which series straps I used. I bet though, that even if the S4 ones are shorter, you can probably tighten them down anyways given the length of the bolts.......but either way its nothing outside of your capability :icon_tup:

Just becuase I had to check

S4 Tank - FB01-42-110D List - $645.92
S5 Tank - FC02-42-110A List - $622.85

S4 Sender FB01-60-690B - List - $not giving a price, but I JUST bought a new one 3 weeks ago :banghead:
S5 Sender FC02-60-960 - List - $116.24

S4 straps - FB01-42-720 - list - $23.xx
S5 straps
Right side - FB71-42-710 - List - $33.38
Left side - FC01-42-720 - List - $30.82

Again, your logic is undeniable (I need some flippin sleep). I guess I'll be trading mine for his when the time comes. It might even save me from buying another sender if his is in good working order. Cool, thanks Joe.

Now lets see how long I can put off buying a tank. I've been using his diff since DGRR :rofl: He's going to need it back at some point.

Excellent, if he shows up this Saturday for the meet I'll be sure to mention this :rofl:

:lol:
There was a caravan of four of us, Neeto in her honduh accord, Shar in his FD, me in the FC, and AJ in his FB. Neeto made some comment about old people driving slow FC's so I dumped 3 gears on the off ramp and roared around everyone.... AJ get's on the walkie and makes a comment, something along the lines of, "look @ that old dude in his mid-life crisis mobile." :lol2:

Not 5 minutes later at the gas stop someone was galking over all the cars so we decide to give him a show........... funny, the mid-life crisis mobile was the only one that could smoke 'em at all let alone through 2 gears. FWD hondah, automatic FD, and lack of hp FB :rofl:

I've got something for ya for a good chuckle... He doesn't remember this...

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...n/DSC_0030.jpg

That picture disturbs my calm... on so many levels.

Now Brian, you know as well as I do that my car will be a contender as soon as I get it all dialed in. Don't deny it.






LOL.

God damn you're still having fuel problems with this? I thought you would have been alright after we replaced the pump and filters.

:rofl:

I want to see your car man. Bill is going to try to make it to KDR next time I'm on the dyno, you should join.

Scott! My other DGRR savior. Dude, I've been through 4 socks total, 3 main filters. Sadly all we did @ DGRR was fix the symptom. I think, I hope, I PRAY that the main cause was the epoxy coated tank, which has finally been changed out. Hopefully that is the end of this crap.

Hate to say it, but I doubt I'll be able to make it out there. I have too much to do and not enough time or money to do it in. This should prove to be mighty interesting.

Story of my life is too much to do and not nearly enough time. You should still try to make it up there for the third or forth dyno. I'm going to make that for a saturday and that's when we're going for 400. Last time I was there he was tuning a 500R for 475RWHP. The thing hit so hard we needed three people in the trunk to keep the tires contacted to the dyno. It was quite awesome

Make sure you hit me up before you go for your 400whp run, I def want to be there... the mrs and I will book a room and attend the grand event :)

Probably throw my 8 up there for some baseline pulls too... ya know, to give you perspective, lol...

400 woot woot..............vodka again

What product was the tank coated with? Do you think the ethanol in the gas dissolved it? I'm picking up my tank Friday from getting boiled and coated, now you got me worried.

The last auto-x I was at there was an 8 that said he did like 130 or 150 on the dyno and thought that to be low........ I thought so too. I'll def be updating this thread when the time comes. It'll be a saturday too, that much I do know. Maybe mid-late August at this point.... dunno. We'll see what happens.

:rofl: You and your flipp'in vodka. What's your brand? I'm quite the vodka drinker myself

I have no idea what the product was. I took it to a local radiator/machine shop and they took care of the whole thing. I'm positive it's the ethanol that's breaking it down. Most everyone that I know with a fiberglass tank is replacing it with plastic or Aluminum. I've even heard from Tim Marren that the ethanol is breaking down the plastic fuel cells and releasing the "sand" they use to help mold the things. Metal seems to be the only safe bet now.

I know it's the ethanol because at one point I dropped the tank. Cleaned all the fuel out. Whiped the tank down with a paper towel and it came back clean. I poured some gas in, sloshed it around and whiped again, still NOTHING. A few weeks later I have filters clogged with sludge after I found NOTHING in the tank. Fucking ethanol. I would talk to the guy that coated the thing and see if he's had ANY complaints about it, and I'd also be curious how long he's been using it. Seems to take a few years for the shit to start breaking down the epoxy. Unless some other rank chemical was added recently that I'm unaware of. I'm no chemist, but from my experience, the ethanol seems to be the beast.

Goose of the Grey my friend.


MAn, we have an ethonal mix up here, small percentage but still here. If it isn't one thing.....

I'm a potato vodka man myself but I do enjoy Stoli, Ketel One, and Level (a good bottle to take to the BYOB strip clubs, the girls think the bottle is pretty :rofl:)

F... Mine is getting done at a radiator repair shop. I've seen the effects of the ethanol on my 5 gal gas cans. They are at least 20 years old and have been perfect until about 3 years ago and you can see the plastic drying out at an accelerated rate. I'll have to ask how ethanol friendly the coating they used is. As with your car no part of my fuel system will be OEM so I will have to see how this goes. Do you have the name and number of the shop you used? I'd like to give them a call and find out what product they use on their tanks.

Mine too actually..
We're up to 15% I believe. Shit sucks moose balls.

BYOB strip clubs?!? AWESOME. TX rules. I've got a Polish bottle that looks like a stained glass widow, pretty awesome, very pretty.

A1 Radiator in Bridgeport CT. This was about 5-6 years ago. Good luck Scott. If they have anydoubts as to the compatabilty with the ethanol, I would think about having the epoxy boiled out, if at all possible. Tanks ain't that expensive, relatively speaking anyway. I'm actually looking forward to an extra few gallons.

Yeah a new tank is sure as hell cheaper than a new motor.

Not to mention 3;) Although, only one motor can be directly attributed to ethanol. And luckily it was only 2 Apex seals that got fragged. Although after everything was said and done it's still ~$700 to rebuild it. Are you logging Fuel Pressure Scott?

I would think its the alcohol/ethanol as well.

Reason being, the custom AI tank I made I ahd lined by my good friends radiator shop. They do a tonne of bike tanks, old car tanks, everything with this stuff, its a type of epoxy but unsure of its exact composition. Its red :lol:

I tested a chunk of it before he did the tank for me. Took 3 pieces, left one in 50/50water/meth, one in 100% meth and another in gas...just because. The 50/50 piece didn't degrade quickly, but still turned a milky colour after 3 months. The 100% turned whiteish in a matter of days, the gas one is still unaffected.

I wanted an idea of what I could run for AI with these tests, and those were my findings. The meth/alcohol absolutely breaks down the "common" materials used to line tanks. High percentages of ethanol would do the same thing I'd imagine.

For sure. I guess I'll have to wait and see. I'll PM you the info on my tank when I pick it up and some pics of the surge tank I made.

Ah crap, mine's red too :lol:

It seems that the ethanol breaks the crap down, just at a really REALLY slow rate. Like 3-5 years but it still seems to happen. Starting this year is when all the tanks in the marine world starting needing it.

Definately Scott, I'm interested.

You get my PM Brian? Anyway, I got the housings, they look GREAT!!

I wonder if there are going to be some major legalities down the road with the ethonal destroying all these tanks. Safety recall perhaps in the future? :)