Update: I ended up going back to my old map set up and original inj lag settings. The negative lag was nice at idle but was causing a lot of issues. It would sparatically fall to extremly lean idle conditions for no reason, even after I map sure my inj firing MS and duty % were linear. EVen my base map idel area was linear to ensure no pulsing idle or abnormalities.

My idle with negative lag was around 12.3/12.1
With my orignal map with NO lag my idle AFR jumps from 11.2-11.5

I REALLY dont like the idle that rich because I know it will foul plugs and it makes my idle sound very "brap brap brap" ish. With negative lag the idle sound was a smooth pur.

my problem going excessivly rich at light throttle in cruise is fixed now becasue I just had some high numbers in my p2, p3 areas(You dont need to lower them much to get them lean when the base map inj reading is like .620 :))

I went out and took some pics yesterday before a three hour tune in 95 degree weather WITHOUT A/C. Sucked balls! I really wish I didnt remove that back in the day when I was trying to squeeze out as much power as possible from the stock set up lol.


http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...Vegas09067.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...Vegas09089.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...Vegas09116.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...Vegas09072.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w.../engine001.jpg

EGT set up

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w.../engine002.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w.../engine003.jpg

I plan on moving the EGT gauges to my center consule this winter..
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...Vegas09131.jpg

Video

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w...Vegas09201.jpg

Awesome ride man... I'm glad its all working out for you. That blue makes me want to get my FC on the road all the sooner.... I know its not the same, but something about blue FCs... mmmmmm...

Thank you bro! I like blue as well, it brings the lines of the car out very well.

Fantastic Sean! yeah that 95 day was kinda wierd. how many miles now?

157 mile now bro. Wish I could be there to pull the motor with ya tonight. bummer

Mmmm. Sounds good!

seck-say

Thanks for the kind words guys. I have about 289 on the motor now. This is gonna take a while BUT will be worth it.

Drive more ;) It's a combo of miles and heat cycles. Drive like 75 miles a day and you'll be real broken in in about 1.5-2 weeks ;)

is highway driving out of the question

Not at all. Laura actually rec's that you keep the rev's under 3500 for the first hour or so. I call it 100 miles. The problem with highway driving is you need to be conscience about varying the rev's. I'll drop a gear or two and accelerate, decel, accel, decel, get off the highway and drive a few backroads for a little bit, get back on the highway etc etc etc. I've actually got 100 miles of that to do tonight and then again on Thurs probm but I'm planning on having 1000 miles logged before I hit the dyno this time and alot of little things worked out, tip-in being the biggest pain in my ass right now.

Tip-in is my problem too! I fucking hate driveability issues

noob moment... tip in?

Accel enrichment, when you're cruising around at perfect Lambda and you hit the gas the in-rush of air requires more fuel than the map allows for. The ECU injects extra fuel and then backs it out over time. The Motec has
Accel Clamp - the max amount of addition fuel
Accel Clamp Comp - comp's the max amount based on a 3D table
Accel Decay - how fast it pulls the additional fuel out of the enrichment
Accel Enrichment Sensitivity - how much at a certain load vs rpm that it injects.
On top of that there is the Accel threshold - at which point (usually unit change/sec) does the ECU recognize that you are trying to accelerate and also various filters. I spent ALOT of time tonight and got the low rpm and VERY light tip ins pretty damn good. But what I ended up fucking up was the mash the gas tip in. Now she'll hit .65 L and buck like crazy. I ended up putting to much sensitivity in which worked for the higher throttle but did nothing for the light tips so I changed the threshold and got the lights great but the hard hits go too pig rich becuase now it's reacting much faster..... ah the joys. God bless the Motec software and the datalogging..... that shit is SICK

DAMN!! I hate v-band clamps...my fucking clamp is loose and now I can not for the life of me get the fucker bck on without it leaking!!

Gonna try my old one since I just broke my new on with a 1/2 inch ratchet. :)


..........EDIT that. I just found a hairline crack on the inside diameter of the DP where to flange angles up to mate againt the turbo. Looks like there is enough room to have someone weld it without intruding on the flanges mating surfaces.

always something......

Nice find. Isn't it ALWAYS something? I think I'm going to buy an Insight...................................... Not enough torque to EVER have a problem with ANYTHING

:rofl:

we dont even have enough torque...lol lol lol

Check it out......I LOVE the color... the bastard!:);) PP Ports must be fun. MAN!, that has got to be Electron Blue! I am gonna start telling people at work that I Slat Flat'ed my FC.

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009...le-rocket.aspx

um... i think that guy stole your car sean. might wanna go double check the garage.

update:

So I have 577 miles on the motor and have cured my dreaded idle woes. When I was assembling the motor I remembered to line up the main pulley with the 5*atdc mark and stab my CAS with the dot aligned to the gear.

Well since start up I have had a good idle but it was very rich 11.1:1 AFR and was a bit lumpy and sparatic. So after messing with some negative lag to day and just getting frustrated I remebered I never put a timing light on the motor(it was stabbed correctly, top off the CAS and thumb on the internal wheel). Well once I got my idle down to 750rpm my timing was at a whopping 10-12*btdc.:cuss:

So I pulled the CAS after I lined the pully back up at 5*atdc and the front cover pin. re-stabbed the CAS and started her up. smooth as butter and is at a perfect 5*atdc @ 750rpm. I raised the idle back up to 950rpm and my idle AFR went to 12.4:1

Much happier and glad I didn't go negative lag. re-tuning the map would have blowed and been a major waste of time last year.



Now as for my comp test it was shaky. I used a piston tester that is brand new from my craftsman professional series kit.

BOTH front and rear rotors had 3 DEAD EVEN pulses at 50 psi each

When I got to the accumulative PSI reading on each rotor I was worried at first...

Front was 95 psi
Rear was 88/90 psi

I know that I want 115+ and after talking to some pro's I need to do this @ 1500/2000 miles. :) I feel like an idiot BUT for some reason I figured compression would be damn near close to high numbers at 577 miles(some have stated it would). I will wait till then(maybe do another at 1000 miles for shits and giggles).


On another note I recieved the "Street Rotary" book in the mail today and am very impressed. Much more informative then the "Rotary Performance" novel that came out some time ago.

One thing that confuses me is on the pre-mix section where the book states that "most experts recommend 1 ounce of pre-mix oil to 1 gallon". Meanwhile my Idemitsu pre-mix bottle states that I use 1/2 ounce per 1 gallon.

I am not running my OMP and would like to hear some input on this. Should I stick with 1/2 ounce until my breakin is done THEN go to 1 ounce per gallon?

***side note: Racing Beat reccomends 4 ounces per gallon on 500HP+ rotaries:o11::o11:

NEXT ON THE TO DO list is to make some ducting to my oil cooler. My oil temps when cruising around town stabilize at 182* F. I dont like that temp BUT am unsure if that is excessivley high( I would perfer 160* F). I should point out that when I ran synthetic the temps went to about 175* F constant.

sean i think for the comp text that since youre using a piston comp tester that there are some pieces in there that need to come out to get a proper reading on a rotary. the other kyle and i were talkin about it. just a quick thought. :)

Sean, nice catch on the timing. How is it that you have 577 miles and I have 2200? And in that time I pulled and half rebuilt a motor? You're slacking my friend :rofl:

For the comp - I made 100-110 psi with those housings before the Goodyear fiasco. That day she made 90-100. After a trip to DGRR and back the comp climbed back to 113. I think she needs more miles, especially with used housings.

Pre-mix - I would listen to Idemitsu, actually I sorta am. I've spoken to a bunch of people who have followed thier rec's and have had nothing but great results. Personally, I'm running ~1/4oz per gal (502:1) in the tank and then the OMP injecting the same Idemitsu. It comes out to be ~1/2oz+ per gallon (256- :1) especially when I'm hard on it. Running @ 1 oz/gal (128:1) is a good thing to do if you're pretty spirited and not using the greatest pre-mix. 4oz/gal (32:1) is just silly IMHO. Marine O/B's run all day long variably between 50:1 and 200:1. I dare say that the loads that are placed on the main bearings, rod pins, and piston rings etc etc etc are FAR more than what an apex/side/corner seal will ever see. Personally if I wasn't using my setup, I would be @ Idemitsu's rec @ 256:1.

Also, think about how much sump oil that a rotary burns. These are pretty crude numbers but hear me out. A quart every 3000 miles is "normal," so lets just say that you're burning a qt every 1,000 miles. Ok, so you're using 32 oz of oil every 1000 miles. How much gas are you using? How about 15mpg? Ok, so in 1000 miles you're burning 66.67 gallons of gas. 66.67 gals = 8533 ozs. So that equates to 266:1 of SUMP oil on "average"

The funny thing is I didn't even plan that out by working numbers backwards.

If anything Sean, I would run 128:1 during the breakin. After breakin's and dyno's are done with, I would reduce it to 256:1 or thier rec'd 1/2 oz/gal.

"If anything Sean, I would run 128:1 during the breakin. After breakin's and dyno's are done with, I would reduce it to 256:1 or thier rec'd 1/2 oz/gal"

Wouldn't I want less pre-mix on break in for a better "dig in". More lube = less friction so less wear on parts BUT I want wear right now correct?

2200!! I hate you again Brian:cuss: I am gonna start hitting the highway for short 40 mile trips to a town called Cascade. Great falls is 56,000 people and from one end of town to the other is about 10 miles man. 577 in maybe 9 day total drive time is pretty good for MT. :)

You know of some baseline oil temp ranges by chance bro?

re-post

I used a piston compression tester, I got 115 psi pulses on all faces at 5000 miles. (I got about 100 at 500 miles). Total compression (check valve in) was a tick over 120 on both rotors. I think the piston tester works just fine, I don't understand your low readings.

By chance, did you try dumping oil down the spark plug hole and trying compression test again? (you should gain ~5-10 psi) If you gain a lot more, I guess more break-in is in order.

I premixed for the first 200 miles and then quit mixing after that until 5,000 miles, when I started mixing again.

115 psi pulses? Man I was seeing 55 psi and I heard the average(via rotary ressurection) was 30-35 psi for each consecutive pulse. ?hmm

I am not worried until I hit 1500 miles.

I run about 1/2 oz to a gallon regularly, and have probably done less on the old motor. The housings were still in great shape besides the chipped apex seal bouncing around in the rear rotor. I only run 1oz per gallon during track days or autocross practices.

Well in all fairness, I did take 2 nights to do a 150mi jaunt each night, I went to Daves twice - 600 miles there, and AC over the weekend. 350 miles, so that's about 1250 out of the 2200 right there.......... BUT.... I also had that week long rebuild stretch where she wasn't running at all.... slacker ;)

I've always been told that more premix during the breakin is a good thing. Reason being, you don't want too much dig in, you want the parts to seat, not overheat, not gouge, no be over stressed. After everythings seated and running well and broken in, there is less stress, less pressure points if you will.



Depends on alot of things, personally I wouldn't worry until you start seeing 220+ oil temps and even those are acceptable. Lower would be better but 230 is an eye opener, 240 is like :cuss: The temps you described are just fine. I wouldn't worry at all. When under a more constant load, you should see oil temps 10-20*hotter than coolant. More than that and I would worry about the exchanger. I went a little to big I think, let me rephrase that, I went a little too small but ducted a little too well. I generally see 170* coolatn and 160* oil on the highway. When sitting in traffic in wonderful jersey on the way to AC, coolant hit 186 and oil hit 210. As soon as traffic started moving again it took about 2-3 miles for the oil to get back down to 160's.

35 psi? I have never seen a pulse that low. Ever. (Except on a blown engine, which gives 25-30 with missing pieces of apex seal.) Maybe we do it differently. I simply take the check valve out of the bottom of the gauge and crank the engine with the plugs out of both rotors and the gas floored (about 400 rpm).

I tested a 120,000+ miles turbo II and got 90 psi bounces.

My 160,000 mile '91 has 110 psi bounces.

My 199,000 mile 6-port had 105 psi bounces even after the coolant seals failed.

I don't know if the pulse is actually 115 psi, I watch how high the gauge bounces (there may be overshoot).

The factory tester actually graphs instantaneous pressure on a chart. I have seen several traces and they usually run about 8 bar (120 psi).

The FSM recommends that no pulse be below 80 psi as I recall.

Think about this:

Starting air pressure 14.7 psi
compression ratio 8.2:1
final pressure = (14.7 * 8.2) = 120 psia = 105 psig (assuming constant air temperature, which is clearly not true, so the pressure should be higher). Any air lost past seals comes out of this total.

I can list a video of the gauge bounces if this would help.

What to you do for 35 psi readings?

thats assuming 100% effieciency. I'd be curious what the map readings are when cranking....... lemme go see........ GAWD I LOVE MoTeC

about 98.6 and I live @ sea level. Seans would be much lower. Just being a math geek

Pre-mix is designed to work with internal seals.
I'd question the Idemitsu ratios - maybe for intact OMP's?
Run the usually 100:1 - 150:1 ratios for "normal" driving.
128:1 is perfectly fine.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the compression test numbers.
The more important thing is that they are even.
Numbers will come up.
Different compression gauges will show different numbers.
A sweeping analog needle is something not very accurate in terms of watching for peaks - this is why Mazda used a digital display for their compression tester.


-Ted

Good to know Ted. I will go to 128:1.


As for the comp test: All I do is hold the valve down on the side and observe the pulses. I have heard of some removing the valve to get a more accurate reading. Regardless we will see at 1500 mile OR maybe 2000.

Drove the car up this morning and SINCE I have put the timing back to the factory 5*ATDC my EGT's have gone up some.

My idle is around: Front-1102*F Rear- 1132*F
MY CONCERN is when I am cruising at about 2400rpm @ about 14.6 AFR my front rotor is about 1545-1554*F and my Rear is running very high at 1612-1623*F.....sometimes a 100*F difference.

When my timing was retarded the temps were obvisously lower(850*@ idle and 1350-1400* @ same AFR and 2400rpm).

I have my rear primary injector getting slightly more fuel, lag settings for front pri inj is .03 while rear pri inj is .04. I was advised to run the rear pri inj slighlty richer due to rear rotors being the common one to blow in S4 motors.

Wierd thing is my front seconadary port has a larger runner diameter because the iron was the later s5 port size and BDC ported it like he ported my last 2 irons. He recieved the front iron last due to some shipping mishaps from the orignal iron seller so he had nothing to compare it to since he already sent my other 2 irons to me. You would think it would run leaner and I would have the oppisite EGT problem BUT I know the LIM runners are smaller and would make the difference barely noticable unless the runners were port matched.

This ports size difference between my secondary runners was the REASON I bought my EGT probes because I felt that the daimeter difference(1/8 inch difference on top and bottom of larger port compared to the other ported secondary runner) would still maybe cause some irregular air intake/AFR issues.


I really wish there was some other info out there(beside Ted's) on common EGT ranges for rotaries. I know each engine is different BUT there has to be some common ground....


BTW...Brian, thanks for the advice on the oil temps and DAMN that was some milage in that short time. You had me all down and out on myself. :)

Well drove it back home today and had to adjust my MS of my rear primary injector from .04 to .22 ms
Now my FRONT PRI INJ is set @ .03ms lag and my REAR PRI INJ is set @ .22 ms lag
It made my temps about 20*F apart from eachother on my EGT's.

I wonder if I need to lower my engine timing on the pulley to 0* ATDC since there rotor housings have a different spark plug hole location and my map I am using now was running S4 TII rotor housings and S4 N/A rotors?

Engine just doesn't seem to have as much low end like it did at atmospheric pressure with the retarded timing. :)

man i need to start getting some data logging ability on the MS

I have a Power FC bro. You thinking MS is Mega Squirt? I am talking about milliseconds of injector fire. :)

Good stuff sean!

On the idemitsu pre mix:

Normal ratios for typical TCw-3's are 1oz/gallon. Idemitsu's is 50% less because the "oil is better/designed to operate at that ratio" Thats the summation I got when I asked ID about the reasons behind it.

Its more expensive, but you use less (per gallon) because you need less :)

Depends on the type of oil I guess. I was using QuickSilver Premium Plus 2-cycle and the Idemitsu is actually cheaper as well. Best of both worlds. Then again, the QuickSilver is marine, and anything marine is going to be more $$$$


Nicely done Sean. I had the same issue, about 100* hotter in the rear while underload. I added 2% fuel but haven't been back in to check the results.

ah... nothing like computer mumbo jumbo late at night. its almost as good as coffee in the morning....:)

just wait Kyle.....you will be there soon enough!


Got some tuning done last night and also order one of the FAST ACTING AIT sensors from Dudemannn. Hopefully this new sensor will help in having a more accurate tune. I get a lot of heat saturation when in stop and go and hopefully this keeps things more linear