First project shows up tomorrow - and it's a boat :rofl: Once that's done, time depending, the trailer gets done, then we'll see. I'd like to get my FC stripped and put back together before the end of the year so if something comes up, she's already ready for DGRR. I'm hoping for an FB resto to be here around 1/1 and if it's not, I'll prob get crackin on my FD (assuming I get it) and then back to the stoppage of the FC in early March.

If you polished the outside radius of each bend and equalized your cross-sectional area throughout the runner and matched that to the port. You should see significant improvements on my 216 WHp. I would expect your engine to make about 240 WHp as it sits, (given the previous assumptions based on piston engine knowledge) With the following additional assumptions:
Intake port timing has been changed to close a little later than stock.
Intake manifold has been port matched, but not blueprinted.
Non-polished rotors do not significantly impede flow past TDC cusp in the rotor housing.

If your manifold were Blueprinted (constant cross-sectional area through entire intake runner) I think you could look 260 WHp in the face.
If you didn't change stock port timing, I think you could get 285 WHp.

Believe it or not, (it seems impossible to convince turbo guys of this) 0.91L will not hurt your engine NA. 1.1L will not hurt your engine NA. You will not burn a hole in a rotor (your rotors are oil-cooled) and detonation is not a problem when you are naturally aspirated. Ignition timing is not a problem either, run whatever give peak power (34 BTDC may be better for you with 9.0:1 CR and un-polished rotors). If it makes you feel better, run 0.86L (this will give almost identical power to 0.91, these are the edges of the peak power range).

Why RE and not REW? I think that the RE has bigger intake ports (could be good, if runners will match) and earlier exhaust port opening (not necessarily good for EGT). What other advantages does it have?

Bone Stock 200,000+ miles coils that came on the car.


The rotors are 9.5:1 because they have been polished to 2000 grit and lightened to < 4kg. (CR empirically determined with sealed ports).

I have a very limited budget for this car, most of my parts were either obtained out of the scrap hopper at work, given to me by friends or custom fabricated by your's truly. I try not to spend much money on this hobby.

I don't intend for the P-port to be a crazy runner, I am not building it for such. It will have 9.4:1 normal rotors, minimal overlap (for a PP) and tame port sizing. My goal is not to rev it to 12,000 rpm and make power all the way, but rather to see if I can get it to be mild-mannered and street-drivable while still making 250 WHp. I see it as the poor man's PP.

The only way to make a P-Port swallow more air than a streetport is to make the intake port larger than the combined total of both intake ports on the street port and to make the exhaust backpressure absolutely minimal, while maximizing the intake pressure. High-overlap engines tend to be more finicky and make less average power than equivalently built lower-overlap engines. Building them is not really that easy. (For example, I have a combined cross-sectional area of intake ports/runners of 3.2 in2, this would be a very large P-port, slightly over 2-inch diameter). I am intending more like a 1.7-2.0 in2 port cross-section for the p-port. I want to try for max power on a later p-port, but this one will have stock internals and I will not rev it past 9,000 rpm (eliminating the need for big ports).

Piston engine guys need large overlap times to scavenge the chambers and to get air through their restrictive intake valves and runners. Rotaries don't have any of those problems with > 270 degrees of eccentric shaft rotation per intake stroke from a street port or 320 from a p-port (duration is not that much better on the P-Port)

The VE (empirical, based on fuel and AFR, probably reads 3-5% high due to injector energization delay) on my 4-port breaks 100% @ 4800 rpm, peaks at 108% @ 7700 rpm and drops to 102% @ 9,000 rpm. At tuned resonance, a P-port could achieve ~125% VE (due to overlap), but could not hold that for a broad torque curve. Peaky power bands do no good for performance, area under the Horsepower curve is your friend.

I really should be posting this in the general Rotary tech section, but most of it is already there.

That's retarded amounts of HP.
Intake timing is slightly later on closing, intake mani port-matched but not blueprinted..... thought about going the extrude hone route but decided to save that expense for two reasons,
1-see if there actually is a difference worth the $600 or more cost
2-didn't want to spend the coin of I didn't need to in order to hit my goal

You don't have to convince me, I know for a fact that it won't. It just amazes me the difference any amount of boost makes to these engines. .85-.9 seems to be where the most power can be made though, regardless of turbo or not. There's just an extra safety margin when you tune it to .8. For example, I was looking through the datalogs from this past weekends auto-x, L were around .9 the whole time, when on the highway they were below .8....... tires were constantly breaking loose. 3rd gear pulls will read leaner than 4th gear pulls on the dyno too because everything is slowed down.



RE has bigger runners, less of a complex UIM, and the LIM is MUCH more balanced. The only way I would do an REW would be with the GZ LIM. To fit an RE in an REW all you have to do is get the rear iron drilled and tapped to accept the stock motor mounts. You actually might not even need to do that. You could probably fabricate something off the subframe to use the RE's stock mounts and adapt some FB or FC mounts.

I like to open the exhaust up for an earlier opening but not change the closing at all. That's what I did with this RE engine and it seems to work pretty well. EGT's are just fine with this.



Nice, I'm wondering how weak the LS1 coils are compared to the LS2 truck coils. Cleaning my fuel up from .75 to .8 nets HUGE gains in power. Much more than you would expect. I'm wondering if there isn't a problem igniting the rich mix and that's were all the stumbling comes from.




Gotcha, interesting that you lost so much CR from such minimal work. Were they balanced as well?

me too :rofl:



Interesting math on the P-port vs street port. As for the VE's, that's a ton of math man!

Can't help you with that one :)

Didn't someone make 217 Dynojet WHp using an RE on the 'evil forum'

I was pretty sure that the RE was the best flowing manifold (when stock). Polishing runners decreases the boundary layer thickness in the runner, which effectively increases the cross-sectional area. I have seen visualizations (dust in air, etc.) with a significant boundary layer of 0.25 inches. This decreases the equivalent diameter to 1/2 inch less.

My stock Primaries were 1.1" minimum effective diameter, based on the surface finish they would have a 0.17 - 0.2 " boundary layer, giving a dynamic effective diameter of around 0.75"

My stock Secondaries were 1.375 minimum effective diameter, giving me about 1.0" dynamic effective diameter. This means that I had a dynamic cross-sectional area of about 1.25 in2

With a 400 grit polished surface, I have a 0.03" Boundary layer (using simplifications of eddy generation) This means that my 1.3" effective diameter Primaries have a 1.24" dynamic effective diameter, while my 1.63" Secondaries have a 1.57" effective diameter. This gives a dynamic cross-sectional area of 3.14 in2. Matching these to 2.95 in2 dynamic cross-sectional area (combined) intake ports (80 grit polished) gives a near-optimal combination (slight increase in velocity after fuel mixing).

Ports that are too big are actually worse for NA power than slightly small ones (loss of velocity will cause poor fuel mixture, causing uneven charge distribution, uneven and incomplete combustion.

Some rough on the inside of each bend is good. (Maximizing turbulence on the inside actually improves air distribution in the runner). My LIM is not balanced, nor are the runner lengths any where near optimal (3300 rpm Helmholtz, 18,000 Sonic). Which is why I want to build a 9" runner intake for my engine.

Just stick a stock exhaust manifold and 2-feet of slightly bent pipe (to minimize clean air reversion to the wideband) on your engine and run it, that will give you as much power as a full exhaust with headers (Dave might not appreciate the sound). I really want to see what you make, so that I can compare my calculations with some real numbers.

DISCLAIMER:

Actual numbers for my engine have been obtained using careful measurement of the cross-sectional area of the intake runners on my manifold. All other numbers are a result of my interpretations of complex formulas, personal experience with 4 and 2 stroke piston engines, advice/suggestions from competant friends and research into this field (SAE papers, books, etc.).

I am not sure that any of the knowledge applies to rotary engines, which is why I have undergone this process, to determine if it does.
So far these NA piston engine rules of thumb have been validated:
Peak power at 0.9L = 13.3:1
Peak torque at 38 degrees BTDC
Torque is function of VE (up to 6,000 rpm, anyway).

NA piston engine Rules of thumb yet to be validated:
If Torque is not linear function of VE, ignition timing or intensity is suspect
Around 9.0:1 CR, torque increases about 8% per full CR increase (8.5:1 - 9.5:1).

My personal theory about Port overlap being unnecessary on a rotary engine as 270 degrees of duration is possible without it is yet to be validated.

SECOND DISCLAIMER:
Please don't misunderstand my continued abuse on late intake port closing. For a turbo application, it is ideal, as it allows additional boost while maintaining equivalent peak compression pressures.

I don't offer much advise to turbo engine builders, as I have very little experience with turbo cars, Snowmobiles, Small block and big block Chevy, Small block Ford, Small block Chrysler, Type 1 - 4 Volkswagen beetle, etc. is where I have experience.

I have 2 numbers to call tomorrow

I should buy a second RE UIM and LIM (I actually had a set, but sold it :banghead: Oh well, I would want to buy an entire engine anyway to get a few extra parts as well) and send it to you to play with, then send it to be coated, then bolt it on this engine and see what the difference is. I'd be interested.



It's not a matter of noise on the dyno, it's a matter of driving 5 hours with it and spending a few hours taking the turbo's off and then re-installing them. I'd like to try it as well as I'm always interested in actual numbers as opposed to internet dyno's. Sadly though, I don't have the time for it right now. Next year maybe. Right now I'm scratching my head trying to find time to build a legal exhaust system so I can pass emmisions and keep the car "legal" by 11/22.... I hate CT. After this it's one more time.... ugh. Lets hope they don't pop an engine this time.

The rotary as it applies to port timing, overlap, VE, CR, etc etc etc is a totally different animal. Fuel will make the peak torque regardless of what engine it's it becuase it's still being ignited in the same envirornment. The Ignition timing I would have suspected would hold true as well because it takes the same amount of time (degrees of rotation based on BTDC timing) to ignite to build peak cylinder pressure. Add boost though, and all that goes out the window. I still believe that one of the reasons the rotary is so susceptable to detonation is in the overlap. Not because of a scavenging effect, but becuase hot exhaust gases can very easily make thier way into the intake charge and well, boom

Update -

Bought a Supra TT pump today and it's slated to arrive on Thursday.

Hopefully the final playdate with Dave is set. Like I said back in June, we're gonna get this thing all set and ready to rock and roll and I'm gonna pull her apart for the winter.

Oh, last update - I've joined the ranks of the legally insane - I bought an FD roller :rofl::driving::rofl: Picking her up sometime around the start of December after I get one boat gone, my boat winterized, and a lean-to built out of shrink wrap to keep her in for the winter. What in the hell am I thinking? Oh wait, I know :driving:

So here's a question for the people following this thread.........
I've got a bunch of things that I plan to do over the winter to the FC. The first trip will be to DGRRX. So, do I continue with this thread and re-name it, or do I start a new one titled - I hope I make it to DGRRX beginning when I pull her apart to tackle my ever expanding To-Do list?

Hey, I have an idea, make up an NA exhaust for the emissions test, then there will be no boost, and they can't hurt the engine. You have to fab up exhaust for the cat anyway.

You can download the driving cycle they will run and go to Dave's and tune the map to run in the Stoic range throughout that cycle (and get some NA power numbers too).

New thread - I have to change my title too, I'm on year 7 now, lol.....



Oh, and I hate you and your FD buying SOB ass :) I expect nothing but perfection with that build as well!

Damn, an FD as well? It's a vicious cycle now!

Because of the way the engine mounts are turbo/mani mounts are, it's REALLY difficult to get the turbo's out of the car without hauling the engine. I'm reluctant to go through all that for a severe lack of time. On the other hand, you make a good point about it not being turbo for the emmisions test. However, it wasn't the turbo that fucked everything up, it was 6500+rpms for over 5 minutes that did it, not boost. We'll see when I go back in a few weeks time though.

First order of business is going to be building a centersection with the Magnaflow cat I have, then it's off to a local dyno with the CT emmisions machine so we can do a little tuning in an attempt to get her to pass. If she don't, airpump and "exhaust leak" time :D Meh, I really don't care honeslty, as long as I get my new stickers, CT can go eff itself.

That's what I'm thinking too, mainly becuase I'll be tearing the car down deeper than she was a year ago to put her on the rotisserie for the undercarriage work. That will be badass to see for sure. I'm only hoping I have funds after this FD purchase to do the brakes that I want to do. Hopefully, we'll see. I had that cash earmarked for the brakes, now 66% of it is going for this roller...... vicious cycle.


This will be another 2-3 year build. Along the same lines as what I've done in the past but not nearly as raw as my FC. I won't go as out of control as I did on the suspension becuase, well, you don't have to in order to get the same level of handleing. No fixed back racing seats, although there will be a bar and harnesses (I LOVE them for the auto-x's, so nice NOT to be thrown all over the place) Custom paint, custom interior, custom wiring for both the engine and the chassis harnesses, as for powertrain, I'm undecided. Alex and I were talking last night and tossing around 20b ideas but that adds a ton of coin to the build as well as time and complications. I love the 13B-RE and I have an iron in my basment that can be tapped to use the stock REW mounts so the thing can just drop right in. Infact, all I need to drop an RE in is the UIM, LIM, and TB that I actually HAD, but sold about a year ago :banghead: but that's OK becuase I still would need one rotor and two housings so I might as well just buy a new-used engine anyway. Turbo's I was thinking twin GT28's, either internally gated or all v-bands for external WG's right on the snails, or maybe I'll just re-create the set-up I have now, although I doubt it, there's nothing new in it for me. I like the twin GT28 idea though. It has been done before, but not very well. Body mods will be simple and subtle, R1 lip, FEED side, some rear diffuser..... meh, I gotta get it first and spend a day and a bottle staring at it :rofl:

Yeah it is! I'm still hoping to get that 1st gen up here around x-mas as well. That would be awesome, all three gens under my knife at once.... DAYUM! I need more space :D

New pump arrived yesterday. Orders of business today and tomorrow are to install that, build an in-car camera mount and dyno and race this weekend. Should have, praying to have, the dyno sheets with CLEAN runs up and a few vids up as well by Sunday night. Should be the last great car weekend untill DGRRX.... that's a little depressing actually. Curse this snow!

What is this "snow" you speak of?

That slick white shit that puts my 400+hp rear wheel drive car into hibernation for 4-5 months out of the year.

Last Feb/March I actually had to TOW the 7 out of my driveway even though it had SNOW tires on her :banghead: We already had our first snow about a month ago, didn't amount to anything but it was flying

DAMN this vile powder substance!! Hibernation is about to start for me and sad thing is my FC has been a jack stand queen the last three weeks because of DP flange and v-band issues. Weather has been sweet the last couple days.

I can wait to see the FD Brian. Make it blue :)