The rear rotor looks a little shakey as well. Not too bad though, just be careful measuring.

When it comes to apex seal slots I'm just very anal because they are the most fragile items - and if they're not supported 100% you're risking a premature failure so I always expect really good, straight and proper width slots.

Running premix over ashless "conventional" (doesn't mean conventional in the conventional sense, more along the lines of regular oil but could be conventional or synthetic) actually has increased wear. I believe the math worked out to about 1/3 less longevity of the seals when compared with regular oil. I'll post up a few links to it. Give me a sec.

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_...96&postcount=9
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_...3&postcount=12
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_...1&postcount=14

So what do you recommend Vex? Different pre-mix or keep OMP system?

It really depends. Do you know the mode of failure with this engine (besides the obvious hardware failure--Ports, etc)? If you were having issues with pre-ignition events I would arrange to use the modified OMP to pump in two stroke directly into the combustion chamber while even throwing in a few ounces into the fuel. This will increase wear on the Apex seals slightly but should eliminate all ash deposits from forming on the rotor surfaces (assuming a clean burn of the fuel in the combustion process). If however you were having more wear problems or some seals were doing damage from increased friction I would use an extremely high grade synthetic/conventional oil with known VOA's (Virgin Oil Analysis) and UOA's (Used Oil Analysis) that show extremely low calcium or even none existent calcium deposits--and thereby having decreased sulfated ash deposits.

If you do go two stroke I highly recommend using the modified OMP because it will allow you to maintain your regular oil reserve for internal lubrication. These parts will then be protected from increased wear of the two stroke, increasing the longevity of the bearings and other wear surfaces internal of the engine. Running the modified OMP will also allow you to maintain an easy indication of the two-stroke oil level and allow proper lubrication of all the seals that see combustion.

If however you choose to stay with regular conventional/synthetic oils I would ensure you use a high grade oil and ensure that proper lubrication is being achieved for the combustion surfaces. These should hopefully be addressed while the engine is out of the car and broken down. Oil injectors, oi lines, oil cooler, oil pump, anything and everything with the oil will need to be spec'd or modified to help increase flow (this includes, but is not limited to increasing the oil pressure to help with lubrication).

So I have ordered a intermediate and front iron from Japan2La that are out of a low mileage jspec. They are being sent to BDC as well as my new rear iron to get a street port done right.

I am in the process of trying to get a new S4 TII rear rotor but can not tell for the life of me if my good front rotor is marked D or E

My rear was marked C so I assume it is D for the front BUT I WILL NOT ASSUME anything with this motor.

here is the front rotor ID
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w.../GARAGE086.jpg

AND THE BAD REAR ROTOR ID
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/w.../GARAGE088.jpg


I will be putting up a for sale thread with these irons and some parts I have piled up over the years. I need cash for this build so I will let some shit go. :)

That is hard to tell..... are the etchings the same "font" for the C and the D - almost looks like they are which would make me think its a D rotor on the rear? Not to mention, it appears the "D" and the "C" from each rotor are facing the same direction where the "E" seems backwards. If not, I would assume your rear is an E rotor, but that E looks like it has a little overlap on the middle line which would not happen in general machining stamping...

Since the motor has been apart before, its hard to really know - but generally the motors I've seen are C/D combos. From what I understand, you can use C with anything but you can't jump a letter such as a B with a D, etc.

Not sure if that helps, but food for thought...

looks to me to be a C and D weight.

But yeah, too many damn stamps on those rotors. You'd think if mazda wanted to be so critical with the weighting, they'd have......hmmm.......maybe......just put weight codes on them? Instead of weight codes plus 17,000 other random, letter shaped things :lol:

Yea - 12A rotors are easier to read IMHO, mazda went crazy on later engines... my 6pt NA rotors had numerous markings on them too...

Hey Classic did you read what I actually got for measurements on the apex seal slots on the rear rotor?

Yea I saw that one of the slots was quite a bit wider..don't recall if you said it was the front or rear though. IIRC the rear was fine, but front haad one out of spec?

I guess my pic viewing micrometer needs a recalibration haha.....but yeah as long as your measurements show they're in spec, you're rockin! :)

Ha, I actually measured them bro. Front rotor slots all measured between 2.01-2.04mm. The bad rear rotor had one side with 2.03-2.05 BUT the other side of the rotor measured 2.15-2.18.

No good in my opinion. However, I can not find specs on the wear limits. ONly specs when Apex seal is installed via FSM.

Well, assuming 2mm apex seals are 2mm's ;) .15-.18 is too much slop IMHO

I don't think you should use it. A rotor should be cheap and easy to come by, shit, I have 2 S4 n/a's and one S5/6......... although I'll know in about 12 hours if I'm going to be using them or not. Actually, I'd go for S5 n/a rotors if I need one or both. The suspense is killing me. Leaving for KDR in 7 hours.

BTW Sean, housing went out on Thursday ;) Lemme know when you get them and what you think.

-B

Usually the apex seals vary a little in thickness and hence why the FSM has it using the seals as part of the measurements. Check the seals and see what the dimensions of them are. You'd be surprised and might find a few that measure 2.03mm maybe more if they were exceptionally sloppy.

S5N/A rotors really?? Isn't the compression ratio too high? Shit I can't find any s4 or s5 TII rotors for less then 400.00 a pair. BUT there are a shit load of N/A's out there in great shape for cheap.

I would have to re-tune for sure since I am pushing 15psi. What are you running bro??

BTW thanks for getting the housings out. :icon_tup::icon_tup:

The weight codes that I have seen in numerous engines that I have built have been. A, B, C, D, or E .

Your rotors are marked C and D. The other markings on the rotors serve for different purposes, like side seal gap.

Yeah, the comp is 9.7:1 in the S5 n/a's. Supposedly helps out with cruise and low end grunt. Need to accomadate in the tuning though. Doesn't really help or hurt in the top end with the boost that I plan to run. Not to mention Chadwick has been doing it for a while so I feel confident.

Re-tuning is going to be mandatory regardless of whether you change anything. You're going to have a much healthier engine at the end which will mean that things are tighter and she'll probably run leaner anyway.

The S4 n/a's are 9.4:1.
S4 TII - 8.5:1
S5 TII - 9.0:1

No worries on the housings. I feel bad that they were a day late. Please PM me when you get them though.

-B

That is crazy. I mean it makes sense but is such a "no no". I would most likely go with S4 N/A since it is a lower comp ratio then the S5. Then I am in need of rear and front matching counter weights too if I go that route.

The last time I researched on using N/A rotors with 15psi, it was looked at like major SIN. I know Aaron cake is running 12 psi on his N/A turbo application with no problems yet..

Hmmm....interesting. If Lucky 7 can't find me a S4 TII rotor OR give me a good price on a pair he has I MIGHT just go this route.

Well, here's the thing, timing makes power, not fuel. The oversimplification is less comp, less heat, more timing more power......... safely.

I have a front S4 counterweight if you want to take this route. Overall power between the rotors can be viewed as negligable. The real advantage is in the low end and vac runnings.

So Kevin Landers may have a rotor for me...I have a another on standby BUT would like to buy from kevin.

I have a quick question regarding side seal clearancing: So do you put one end of the side seal all the way against one of the corner seal eyelets and THEN clearance the other end? I feel stupid but I was checking some of my 50 side seals I have that are practically new and could not get the little fucker to stay still while clearancing one end. It would just slide slightly obviously screwing up my measurement.

I use a grinding stone and slowly take it down until it's the proper clearance. I do this with the seal out of the rotor. I measure the clearance by sliding the seal against one of the corner seals and then measure the gap at the other..

FWIW - in speaking with Dave on saturday, he's seen some Mazda reman's that hadn't been started yet that were set to 0 clearance. He generally sets his to 1/2 the Mazda recs or .02mm, something like .001" I think. With that said, that's what I'm going to try this time around.

.02mm is flipin crazy.....I like the word flip'in...but I also like this vodka. :)

You said Laura is goning send you some new seal and SPRINGS? I emailed them on friday and haven't heard if they got any racing ones in stock yet. They must. I will call tomorrow as soon as I finishing fucking this goose.....Grey Goose that is.

Goose is my favorite. Nice choice. I recently had some TX Vodka that was like 120 proof.... ridiculous.... expecially the things that it allowed me to do :rofl:

Yeah, they had like 4 sets left. Best thing to do is call. Laura's great to deal with and if you can't get her on the phone, leave a msg, she actually calls back.

GL man :icon_tup:

I feel you on the 120 proof. Now if I could only get my wife to drink that, then the possibilities are endless;)

Purchased a rotor from Kevin Landers today, so that will be in next week.

All I have left is: to get my short block seal kit, oil control rings, side seals and some racing springs from RA. BDC is done porting my rear iron and should be recieving my intermediate and front from Japan2La soon.

Should be able to wrap all that stuff up next paycheck.

I just sent out my first mortgage check today.......good feeling granted the amount of ink I had to lay down on the "dollar" section of the check. :)

Lets hope I can get this stacked before August

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Purchased a rotor from Kevin Landers today, so that will be in next week.

All I have left is: to get my short block seal kit, oil control rings, side seals and some racing springs from RA. BDC is done porting my rear iron and should be recieving my intermediate and front from Japan2La soon.

Should be able to wrap all that stuff up next paycheck.

I just sent out my first mortgage check today.......good feeling granted the amount of ink I had to lay down on the "dollar" section of the check. :)

Lets hope I can get this stacked before August[/QUOTE]

August! It's a shame you live so far away Sean, I'd beat your ass if I could ;) Then I'd help out with those flipp'in clearances and get you back on the road before mid July....... You don't happen to have a really big truck with a car transport and a longing to visit the East Coast do you?

Haha, family first you silly fuck. :) I am moving as fast as I can BUT for now I am chilling on vacation sip'in on a cold beer. Laura called me back and sent me some racing springs so I am almost there.

BTW, Halomar or just Petro???

Both? Hymlar on the lower portion of the housings and petro on the O-Ring/Fire rings. That's if you're going by factory spec.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yeah yeah yeah, sometimes being "single" has it's advantages. I can devote all my time, energy, blood, sweat and other bodily fluids to my Most Ungreatful Mistress if I so choose, or I can devote it to the other

Cool, I actually got all my seals in yesterday and the injectors showed up today. My Cryo'ed parts won't be ready until Tuesday though. So all that means is more time on the water. It'll be a welcomed distraction.

I use vaseline on the irons in the grooves for the water and gas seals. Then I put a VERY thin layer of Hylomar around the housing being VERY careful as to how much I apply and even more importantly, where. You'll see what I mean. Basically you don't want the Hylomar squeezing out into the housings and contacting apex seals. Also, head down to the local chandlery store and see if they have some epoxy syringes. Pack that bitch full of vaseline, you silly fuck ;), and use that to apply the vaseline to the the grooves. Works wonders. Way better than using your mitts to get it in there.

BTW - those housings show up yet?

I wish I knew where to pick up those syringes when I was rebuilding mine. Major pita getting the vaso off my hands. Made me want to go spank my monkey in the corner... or maybe I should have done that on the housings?

:rofl:

A tip though if you plan on putting the hylomar on the housings as well is to put the dowel pins in first, then slide the housing over the dowel pins. This way you won't accidentally pull a seal out of the groove by it sticking to the hylomar ;)

Thanks for the tips guys.

VEX- I feel ya on the petro all over your hands. When I assisted in a couple builds years ago, I remember getting assigned that bitch job and afterwards I grabbed my beer to sit back and watch and the damn thing slipped out my hand, fell into a oil drip pan and splashed 10w-30 all over my cousins FD. :)


BDC sent me a pic text of his port job on my rear iron. Looks great and can't wait for further inspection.

I am off to go wake board, you all have a fun and safe 4th and Brian, make sure you spare some of that attention and bodily fluids for your girl........they tend to get jealous from time to time. Just ask my wife. :)

No worries Sean ;) The vasoline is quite a PITA. THe syringes I buy are fine enough to actually get it in the side seal groove as well.

Generally what I do also, because so much cripe sticks to the vasloine, is clearance all the rotors last. So the vasoline isn't sitting static collecting dust and dirt. Or, if I clearance everything but need to wait a day or two, I'll set everything with no vaso, and keep everything together with rubber bands. Then dissasemble, apply the vaso, then start stacking.

One more tip that I find eases starting - use both engine oil and 2-stroke oil when building the engine. Use the engine oil on the bearings, and between the side seals including the oil control rings. Use the 2-stroke where it can burn. It seems to really help in the starting. Even though you're cranking for a good minute maybe in 7 second bursts to get oil pressure up, check timing, check for leaks, etc etc, they still seems to start up MUCH quicker when I use the two stroke oil in the combustion area. Makes alot of sense too.

Tons of good build tips in this thread :)

Sharing is Caring :lol:

Well clearancing side seals takes FOREVER!! Worth it though, I think I will go for .003

Now I don't know if this is a rumor but sometime ago I heard that you shouldn't use petro jelly on a rebuild if it is gonna stay static for a week or two due to swelling? Anyone confirm this, and if true what do you use?

You can use the vaso nastiness on all the hard metal seals. Where you don't want to use it is on any of the soft seals. The water seals, the o-rings, things like that. The seals will actually absord the vaso and swell to the point where they cannot be used. Leaving it on clearanced rotors is fine though, I would just put them in a bag to keep them clean though.

OK. Why the fuck does the FSM insist on using petro on the o-rings and water seals? So just install the water seals dry then?

BTW Brian, I still ahven't recieved the housings. You have a tracking number by chance. Thanks bro.

I think the FSM says to use the vaso bacuase they are assuming that the engine is going to be assembled immediately.

I wouldn't put the gas/water seals in dry, I just wouldn't put the vaso on the irons until you're ready to assemble the engine.

I've got the tracking number. Lemme grab it and see what's going on with that. The went out last friday. I understand there was a holiday involved but gimme a flippin break.

BTW - that vid will be in the mail on Thursday. It kinda covers what we're talking about here.

Thanks again buddy for all the help. It is very appreciated!

I just went through your thread again for shits and giggles and FUCK you have had a hell of a run. I never saw your cannon plugs in the firewall. I had that same idea back in 07 but got lazy and decided to just rewire the factory harness. I work with those cannon plugs everyday on the F-15/P&W 220's, and back when I was on the F-16 they always inspired me to put them in my 7. Good job!


So update on my build: BDC sent out my irons so I should recieve those by Monday. In addition my rotor should arrive the same time.

All I have left is to clean my good rotor(WD-40 time!!) and order all my water, side and oil seals.

I am a little relucant to clearance my side seals to .05mm....not much room for expansion in case a horrible quick overheat ever happens(which I will in all my control never let happen). Please enlighten me if I am just being a giant vagina but it seems safer.

Payday is Friday so Mazdatrix well get me the shit by friday of next week so.........build starts in two weeks.

Thanks Sean. I LOVE those cannon plugs. Never again will my back ache from installing an UIM after the engine is stabbed in. I assemble the ENTIRE engine, stab it in, make a few connections and BAM - fire time! No worries on the help, anytime. I'm going to get those tracking numbers for you in a few minutes.

Your vagina is oozing estgrogen ;) I've been clearancing them to .05mm and never had a problem (except for that one time during the emmisions test when water and oil got to 260*+). In fact, after talking to Dave, this engine will be .025-.03mm. He's also broken down Mazda Factory remans and found ZERO clearance, ported the engine, reassembled, and they just run like champs. So .05 is now my new max and it's Mazda's min.

Don't forget that alot of the cooling on the rotor's comes from the oil

Shit I better get some VAGI-CLEAN and a garden hose.:o11:


Well I will clearance them to .05 because I am easily convinced. I am fucking pulling my hair out on this down time waiting for parts. I actually just PM'ed Barry Bordes in regards to the shitty HKS csat mani and 50mm WG I am running and how to port for less creep. The 50mm holds steady but with the 10psi yellow spring I still was hitting 14.5-15psi with the boost controller off. It doesn't go any higher then 15 ever.

That is my target AFR but I have no control with my boost controller and if I ever get a little creep on a cold night i have no way to lower it. I have fail safes like a Greddy relief valve set to 17 psi and my fuel maps set to 10% richer above 16 psi on my MAP scale but I want control too! :cuss:

I would go a whole other route with a better exhst mani but that means MORE fabriation to my DP and intercooler piping since my blow-off valve barely clears my strut tower. I just want to drive this summer.........winter project maybe if this creep cant be solved(if I break-in IN time for boost).