the whole setup for under 300 now I can work with that. I will definitely look into that. What kind of piping are you using? I need it as cheap as possible for right now.

Just universal aluminum piping 2 1/2". I welded them all myself and saved money that way. Make sure to get T bolt clamps to hold the couplers in place, regular hose clamps suck. Pick the most direct route to reduce bends and increase response.

Wow I don't know if I can weld aluminum with just my 120V mig welder. I'll look into it but I'm looking at intercoolers now and they are pretty cheap. They're going for $129.

Ok well for about $250 I can get 24x12x3 with a total length of 30.5" intercooler and 3" universal piping with T-bolt clamps and boots. My concern is the welding. Is it possible to weld aluminum with my MIG welder?

Yes, thats what I used, you will need aluminum wire, and argon shielding gas. It will take some practice but it's easy once you have it all setup. Don't even try without the gas, you will fail. Or you can take it somewhere and have it welded.

Sounds good I'm sure I can figure it out now that I know someone else has done it. So with the intercooler and the SUE nozzle things should stay pretty cool?

Oh for sure. The intercooler alone will help a lot. I am a bit curious how much preturbo would drop your temps. You could try your cooling mist preturbo just as an experiment.

...

Actually I might wait awhile as I really think I need to beef up the ignition before I get a FMIC. I will try the preturbo method after the ignition is done and see where I'm at from there. I remember you saying in the Rx7club.com forum that water flashes at 212 degF and that's where the water really shines. I will drill out the nozzle for more flow and fit as much water as I can. If I'm fighting the temps from that point then the front mount will have to go in.

Hey Dudeman also wanted to let you know that you can replace the fluid cap and matching air cap to flow 1608cc at 20psi found on the ispray.com website. It's a little pricey though.

They are all a little pricey, but yeah I saw you can get different sizes. The size goes up quite a bit after the 380cc nozzle. I think I also saw one that was 800cc or so. When I first did the setup I wasn't sure how much water I would need, after experimenting I decided I wanted more so I drilled it out. I might even go bigger at some point but it seems good where it's at.

I would not run my car hard at the air temps you're seeing. While it is true that water really shines at it's boiling point.... because it's boiling point is much higher then alcohol it won't bring the temps down as much. Take your cooling mist jet and stock it in front of the compressor. Do a few tests with it first, nothing bad will happen to your compressor short term and many people are running systems like that with a lot more water. It will at least tell you if you're on the right track.

It's quite possible the breakup you're experiencing is due to the extreme air temps you have, or because the water isn't atomized as well running the post turbo pump driven setup. Preturbo will atomize the water much better, regardless of the system type. That alone could help drastically reduce temps and the breakup you have. An intercooler would also allow you to run less water overall which will also put less strain on the ignition.

If you don't mind possibly having to run meth also and a larger nozzle then you can see what happens before adding an intercooler, but I have a feeling with water alone you'll need an intercooler too.

Personally I recommend moving the nozzle you have right now to the front of your turbo and just see. That won't cost you any money.

Actually I purchased a replacement cap that flows 1608cc at twenty psi and I was thinking running meth all the way or at least 50/50. Also I'm not experiencing any breakup but it does feel very sluggish up top as it drags to hit 8000 rpm. I just need to find a way to get meth around here or use washer fluid.

I will try it with the coolingmist jet in front first and see how works. I was going through some of the logs and noticed that on a hot day the IAT was at 145 degF cruising and at 10 psi would go up 10-15 degrees. At 15-16 it was reaching 175-185 degrees. Also I have an activation LED that lights up when the Coolingmist pump activates and noticed on some of my runs that it wouldn't light. It's the reason why I'm leaning towards the mechanical setup. The Coolingmist system is inconsistent from what I noticed and might be the reason why I'm seeing high temps.

And wanted to throw it out there and see if anyone has tried using Isopropyl. I noticed it's really cool to touch and read somewhere they used this type of alcohol testing AI. It's cheap and can mix it up using water.

The density of the air at those temperatures is very low which means you make a lot less power. The same thing happens when you run a turbo past it's efficiency range. You make more heat then power. I'm not surprised that it feels sluggish. Falling off on top could also be caused by intake and exhaust restrictions. (turbine housing too small, exhaust too small, restrictive plumbing etc) An ignition system won't help unless you're not igniting the mixture completely, that doesn't sound like it's your issue. Once you try to burn 1600cc that may change. The alcohol will help with that though. You should have no problems with intake temps if running alcohol too.

Isopropyl can be used, the flash point isnt as low as methanol so it doesn't cool as much per volume, it also has a higher BTU then methanol so you will need to pull more fuel from the fuel maps compared to injecting the same amount of methanol. So if you're nozzle is a set size methanol will have more cooling ability while not effecting the fuel maps as much. If you can find methanol it's a better option and should cost less to run.

Also that 1600 cc nozzle will be using a lot of whatever you inject. You will want a fairly large tank to keep from needing to fill it all the time. Roughly you will be using about 1 gallon of water/alcohol every 2 and a half minutes of full boost. So 2 gallons every 5 minutes. You will want a constant supply of alcohol, you might look into ordering a big drum of it to save money.

Well I have 1.01 exhaust turbine housing and 3" exhaust all the way through. Also I have a 2.5" pipe from turbo to throttle body. I had a T-60 turbo before with a 1.15 turbine housing and the car felt pretty much the same way with the water/meth.

And the meth is hard to come by over here. Not sure where to look.

I like your style dudemaaan i was tempted to go that route with mine but after all the research i ended up getting a TIG for the ease of welding aluminum in A/C. of course i went overboard like everything i do and picked up a miller dynasty 200dx lol probably could have easily done all i wanted with a hobart tigmate but oh well its easily paying for itself with all the aluminum iv been dooing for my car :icon_tup:


you have any pics of the welds it comes out with im interested to know if i just spent too much andthat would have been goood enough for what i want. LOL hell i didnt even know how to tig when i got it taught myself hopefully ill get some classes in soon for it.

sorry nothing to do with this thread but had to ask

z

I don't have any pics of the welds, most of them are hidden under couplers and such. It's been raining out here the last week but when it stops I'll see about taking some pics. Tig is definitely nicer, I have a tig welder too but not the right type for aluminum, I use it for stainless steel. The mig welds come out just like you would expect any steel welds to come out with a mig welder.

Here you can kinda see one in the right bottom corner in line with the corner of the battery. I dont have a closeup. There is also one by the BOV, but it came out kinda globby due to the different thickness' it was harder to weld. I ground it down later on but it's not shown in any of the pics.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...n/CIMG0952.jpg

not the right type for aluminum? what is it? if its d/c whats the difference from using it compared to your d/c mig unless the mig is a/c switchable? not that it matters i guess its working for your needs.


BTW cant wait to make a water injection kit when i get return from the desert using alot of your info i really like it.

z

Yes the tig welder is DC, I gave it a shot to start with and it came out like shit, It was impossible to weld. Ended up with it blowing out, not sticking, turning black. Was utter shit, and I can weld with about anything.

Why it works on a DC Mig welder? I have no idea but it does. I had to reverse the polarity of the ground clamp and trigger, but from the get go it worked smooth as butter. Except the one time I tried without the argon flowing, then flashbacks of the DC tig experience started manifesting themselves and i'm like wtf is happening. The welds didn't stick, had terrible penetration and weren't smooth at all.

ya sounds about right for d/c lol reading up on it when i was buying my tig found that the a/c perfered for aluminum as the alternation of the ground and tourch create a ripple effect in the pool bringing your contaminants to the surface giving you that mirror pool to work with and know whats happening the d/c does not.

and yes i know the reversing the polarities for the d/c mig aluminum welding but from the sound of it you were having issues with the tig that were fixed buy the constant cooler wire feeding your pool keeping the temps in check and being that your constantly adding filler that way your also moving fast enough to keep the base metal cool enough to weld yet not blow through.

yup i actually was gonna try welding with the mig in aluminum... hell i even have a 2lb spool of aluminum wire lol just never did and picked up the tig maybe ill try it out one day when im bored just cause i can :)

damn see turned your thread into a welding discusion and back to the topic....

z

Haha it's all good

This is the bike I built in the early 80s with mechinal water / alcohol injection .Kaw 900 bored to 1400cc, rajay turbo, all hand made.Still running.

Why does having the water go into the turbo inlet help vs. out of the turbo before the intercooler? Wouldn't the water do the same cooling effect in the intercooler as in the compressor housing? Just wondering.

Well for one the compressor really helps to atomize the water which makes it easier to flash and easier to burn in the engine. Also, in my case it HAS to be preturbo because its driven by the turbo. If it was insalled post turbo the pressure would equalize and i would have no water flow at all. There is also evidence that water injected preturbo exdends the compressor map, making the turbo more efficient at higher boost levels.

forgot about the pressure differential--few beers will do that.

I still wonder about the atomization since it goes through the intercooler--would it still be atomzied?

your still getting awesome results either way.

"extending the compressor map" doesnt that just mean adds a bunch of lag? I would wager the misted water puts a lot of resistance on the comp blades, slowing spool time.. post-turbo, not a problem. dudeman have you do done any testing of turbo lag with and without WI? how much are you to expect

thinking about adding a small amount of WI for my hybrid turbo setup with an ARC tmic. intake temps in boost get up to 150F in the summer

Has absolutely no effect on spool. I first set the water on at 3 psi and It actually seemed like spool was very slightly increased. Maybe due to increased density or maybe in my head. I was running out of water too quickly so I set it to 8 psi. I don't notice any difference in spool at all. I run a laggy turbo so changes in spool is one thing I WILL notice.

The reason most likely that the compressor map is extended is because:
As a turbo's efficiency decreases the air temps start climbing, once the air temps exceed 212*F the water will flash and start bringing the air temps back down. So more power can still be made at boost levels that normally would just cause excessive hot air.

That's my take on it anyways, my turbo is pretty big so I have no way of really testing it out unless I take it to 30 psi or so.

Its good to see I have had an influence on the popularity of this technology :seeya:

Its been done for ever!

Of modern times its been the way since Eldred Norman finished 4th in the 1956 Australia Grand Prix.

Every decent mechanical engineer on the planet since Ricardo has bestowed it virtues and ALL following him of any note have also applied it and show examples of how to do it properly. Modern age turbo charger pioneers and who brought this to the masses (note: Hugh McInnes is the DON!) wax lyrical about water injection in all of his publications.

I was about the first rotary person to apply & widely educate people about this EXACT system in 1992 and since then lots of people have followed my lead in using these exact system parts and tuning theory :) I remember the days in early function of forums where I would be roped into arguments with total clowns about water injection and how its a band aid (Corkey Bell anyone! *first class clown right there!*) ........... now every man and his dog is trying to ca$h in on water injection and think they have rediscovered the wheel.

Here is some testing of my original systems which have been emulated as stated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lizxy3XIY8

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

I am happy to see that others are having the same great results I have been having for almost 2 decades :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW4vP...eature=related

Thought I might update this a little. I made a system for a forum member on the other thread. Redesigned a few things. Came out nice. I used push lock fittings and mounted the solenoid directly to the nozzle to eliminate any chances of dripping after shutoff. Put a meter valve so water flow can be adjusted. Opened the nozzle up to 1mm to increase flow capacity a little more. I took several closeups of the nozzle and how the solenoid is attached. http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...n/DSC01170.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...n/DSC01168.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...n/DSC01167.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...n/DSC01166.jpg

FYI the nozzel will not drip no matter where the solenoid is located ;) *does not need to be that close and it will simplify the install.

Actually I think having the nozzle mounted on the nozzle will simplify the install unless space is a concern, in which case it can always be moved. With the solenoid mounted to the nozzle you only have to mount one and they will both mounted. I personally think it's nicer this way compared to how I first did it. I figure if you have a foot of hose with water in it with the car bouncing around and such, it could drip out of the end since it has nothing to keep it in.

no never happen, you need to test it to see for yourself.

mounting is a good point, I understand what your saying there. I tried it and I went back to the other way as its more flexible for people who have given me feedback, also the solenoid can be kept cooler as well, something you need to take into account.

anyway it looks good, very familiar :001_005:

Thanks Peter. I do really like the push lock fittings. I had a hard time finding them, but they are very nice to work with. I wouldn't mind using them for my other vacuum lines, but I'm not sure how the nylon hose would hold up in the engine bay of an RX7. I'm sure for the water injection it will be fine though.

Here's a video Rdahm did of the kit. He will also be doing an install video after he finishes getting his turbo oil lines and such.

Excellent and informative thread.

Are the installation vids complete?

Here's the youtube channel for the updates on the kit I made for Rob. http://www.youtube.com/user/emerciv

I've made a couple more kits for members on the other forum, once pics and stuff are placed I'll be sure to post them here for people to see.

thanks for the writeup

lol nice video title
http://www.youtube.com/user/emerciv#p/a/u/2/cTKtRiRk7Sk

Im Running a coupon code through April 4 for anyone interested in getting a kit. $25 off using the code 25OFFWATER. Www.wannaspeed.com the front page has the kit listed.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...h_IMG_0224.jpg