Daym Charlie, your thread just became a debate thread, wonder what is next to be debated on...LOL...

Let me know how your Custom ITB project is doing too as if I go 20B N/A that would be the route I would like to take...

Turn key is the best system. If you don't know how to use the latest and greatest system available what good is it? System bugs can blow engines just like having too much timing or a lean AFR. If you are familliar with a particular system stay loyal to it.

The Haltech E6K is my favorite. Not great resolution but enough for a clean running car that makes very good power.

There were implications that CDI is not needed or inferior.
Mazda even went into great lengths of R&D to document that CDI ignition produced more power on a 13B engine.
CDI has it's place.
Why do you think the HKS Twin Power is so popular with FD owners?
Are they all wasting their monies?
Also, your above comments also implies Electromotive has some special coil that works wonders...
In fact, it's just a typical inductive coil.
So why not an aftermarket MSD / Crane Cams / Mallory coil?
Haltech has no problem fire any of those options...


Technically, you only need one setting.
You're trying to take a Haltech advantage and twist it into a disadvantage.
The Haltech was designed to adapt to almost any available ignition triggering mechanism out there.
Hell, if you want to, you can slap an Electromotive 60-2 trigger wheel and magnetic pick-up's onto your engine, and the Haltech can be confirgured to read this perfectly fine.
So where is your superior accuracy now if all you're touting is the higher resolution trigger wheel?
It doesn't work the other way around.
In general, the Haltech can be installed, adapted, programmed for almost any engine out there, which means it'll be up and running faster than any Electromotive system due to the fact that the TEC systems *require* you to retrofit their ignition trigger wheel and mag sensors.


There is one flaw...
Since most of the time the Electromotive trigger wheel and magnetic sensors are mounted out in the open, if you're in an extremely dirty environment, it's possible to cause misfires from debris flying into the wheel and / or sensors.
I've heard of this happening on road race cars.
Flawless?
I don't think so.


E6X, right?
If so, then I'll give you that.
If it's an E6K, I would suspect user error.
Even with the newer E8 / E11V2, adjusting GAIN and FILTER settings is key to getting everything to work nicely.
I don't think Electromotive has this kinda adjustment on it's software?
Electromotive had (has?) gap specs for it's wheel to mag sensor spacing.
Off by a few hundredths of an inch can make for inconsistent ignition input.
So do I rather have software adjustment or f*ck with feeler gauges?


The hardware is only as good as the tuner's ability (and it's tech support).
There's a lot of Haltech resources out there.
There's enough experience to handle the majority of coil (set-up) questions - I don't see that as a problem.
(Personally, I believe heavily in CDI, and I like the option to use it on my installs.)
Most standard CDI single-channel installs have standard settings.
(Aftermarket) inductive coils are all the same with the exception that you can play with the coil dwell time if you want to.
GOOD aftermarket CDI multi-channel boxes (i.e. Autronic / MoTeC / etc.) are all set the same - just like the single channel stuff.
Hell, if all of that confuses you, just keep the ignitor(s), install the CDI betwen the ignitor and coil, and you don't have to change a single setting!
Most tuners want additional flexibility - not the other way around.


Funny you say that, cause your replies are saying just the opposite.
I've been chanting this mantra for years now:
"Your EMS is only as good as the tuner's abilities and tech support."
Arguing superiority of one EMS over another is a royal waste of time - this very swap of replies in this thread is a good example.
So please, don't tout how your Electromotive is better than Haltech blah, blah, blah...

My replies end here.
Big apologies to charlie7 for soiling your thread.
I just hate it when people spew misinformation.
Anyone wanna debate my points, I welcome them through *PM*.


-Ted

Ted,

Based on your experience you think I would be ok using LSx coils for my NA setup?

Kai,

I plan on rapid proto typing the throttle bodies sometime next week to start using them for mock up. I really hope the barrel works well, I have a feeling it might be hard to keep consistant. We'll see, I am feeling very confident in them however.

Sorry for the late reply, but I was trying to dig for more info on this...

Others have had great experience with the LSx coils.
I'm not a very big fan of them - I believe in bigger-is-better when it comes to coils.
(If we had the money, I'd go for MSD HVC series coils, but these are EXPENSIVE and also very bulky.)
We're trying to retrofit LSx (dunno which series) coils on our long-dormant 20B ourselves.

There was a great thread on the Evil Forum, but I can't find the thread right now using Google search.
It pointed to the EFI101.COM website, but I'm not getting good hit on there either.
All I remember was "mercury marine" coils - this search popped up a few hits on EFI101, but not the threads I was looking for...


-Ted

The MoTeC dealer that I bought my M820 from recomeended the LSx coils and thus far I have had zero problems with them. His rec came from using them on T-BIGMF'ers gulping meth and putting down damn near 1000hp. However, you need to be sure that whatever EMS you decide to run does not need wasted spark. The LSx coils require more dwell time than is allowed and like a healthy supply of juice.

As for the Mercury Marine coils............. being a MARINE GUY myself I can tell you there are two types, the I/O type and the outboard type. The I/O types are standard LS coils of some variety. The outboard coils I have seen two versions of, the 2-stroke and the 4-stroke. I would think the 4-stroke coils would be require to long of a dwell time and produce an average spark. The 2-stroke variants, well, obviously they have to be a much stouter coil.

FYI - Yamaha builds a number of Merc engines. Best thing to do would be to contact Quicksilver directly and talk to them.



EDIT- QuickSilver being the parts division of Mercuy Marine... get it. QuickSilver, Mercury :rofl:

Just a little update..

Bought 3 NEW 13b housings

Also im working with a interchangeable intake that will work with a single plenum and ITB.

Ill try and get some solid models soon and discuss my approach to it as far as testing different setups etc.

Ouch :rofl:

Sounds like it'll be a sweet setup when it's done though. :icon_tup: I'm interested in this intake idea.

Hey Charlie, have you seen these...

http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_...roducts_id=118

price is not too bad....

$1,200 shipped. Not bad at all.

Charlie... Welcome to the growing group of 20b NA guys! Great build you have going.

Couple of things. Generally, you should just go with whatever EMS your builder is most comfortable with and ignore most of the flack. However, I would echo most of what RETed said comparing the Tec and Haltech systems. I like the e6k a lot and really liked the ignition flexibility, since I used several different trigger setups (back in the day). I would add that with an NA motor, many of the functions both TEC and Haltech provide are a bit less critical than with the turbo motors. I use a Microtech and it works just fine.

On ignitions. Again, I agree with RETed that CDI is a benefit. CDI only runs generally from 0-3,000 rpm, but the mutliple, stronger sparks burn much better than inductive setups or stock. Plus, if you go MSD, which is my preferred ignition, they (I think) are still the only true digital system and the firing is very precise at high rpm.

On coils. Bigger is better. The MSD Blaster series are reasonably priced on sale especially and do a great job. Output is very high and the rise times are very quick. Since the NA motor will rev to 10,000 rpm if balanced right and with no worries, you need the fastest rise times you can get. MSD's run very cool at high rpms.

Carry on...

Gordon

Thanks for posting Gordon, your car was the inspiration for this build..

As far as updates..I have none.

The engine will be back by the end of the month. I have all the CAD work done for the motor mount brackets and mounts. I planned on using 1/8 steel plate but decided to go with 1/4 aluminum for corrosion resistance, etc. They will be plenty beefy and will get the job done. I will have some pictures of them when they are done.

Charlie... Any update?

Gordon

just out of curiosity, how much will this build cost you? i was talking to dave at KDRotary in PA, idk if you guys know him or not, but for the rx8 he said its roughly anywhere between $20 - $25 grand.