And we are both flogging dead horses here I'll just shutup and wait for the results next time at the strip.

There's a dyno and video posted... I'm not sure where the massive doubt is coming from.

"Most people" would have a hard time getting the stock turbo to push anything past 240 - 250hp at the wheels, even on a DynoJet.
What we're dealing with here is a lot of hush-hush stuff that the OP isn't willing to give all the nitty gritty details to at this point in time.
Even I have my doubts on how a "stock turbo" + "stock ECU" is going to push an honest 280 at the wheels myself...
I was going to leave this alone and hopefully some useful hints might get posted, but it's starting to go in the wrong direction.

We don't know what kind of fuel this set-up is using, but it might be some "exotic" race fuel...
We don't know what kind of ignition timing this set-up is using, although advancing the ignition timing doesn't usually gain that much power, but I have a feeling we're not dealing with stock ignition timing settings.
We're not talking about some ultra high RPM range (over 9,000+ RPM's), so that's not it.
DynoJet #'s can be fudged to read high; so far the reputation of the dyno owner hasn't been questioned yet (but I'm sure it will be now) - the pic does show the run being "UNCORRECTED".
There's not talk about some kind of supplemental injection; the only thing mentioned is a larger fuel pump + larger secondaries.
(Hell, 50-shot nitrous anyone?)
I don't there was mention of the stock top-mount intercooler or if there was a front-mount intercooler installed?
An FMIC would explain a 10 - 20hp gain over the stock top-mount intercooler set-up.
How about custom A2W intercooler? Ice?
CO2 / LN2 / N2O sprayer on the intercooler core?
We don't know the boost graph over the entire run.
Unless the system was running a closed-loop (electronic) boost controller, stock turbos tend to run higher peak boost right before peak torque and then taper of toward redline - so is the "9psi" the max it managed to hit, or was it closer to redline?
We don't know ambients - temperature or humidity.
Dry day with close to freezing temps will increase power (over a humid and hot day).
The OP also hinted about vehicle weight - we don't know the weight of the vehicle + driver.
Most "full interior" FC's are going to weigh around 3,000 lbs.
It's possible to get the FC down to 2,800 lbs. with driver or even down to 2,600 lbs. pretty easily.
What about what kind of rear tires?
Slicks would definitely aid traction.
Drag radials? Maybe.
Street tires? Possibly.
Too much variables...

In my experience, the stock turbo is only good for 240 - 250hp at the wheels.
An FMIC might give you another 10hp on top of that.
Someone on here claims they hit 270.
We do know the inducer and exducer measurements of the stock turbo.
When we average the #'s out, it slots in around a big T3 and under a small T04.
The "280" @ "9psi" is more what a T04B "V-trim" would do, and that's way up the chart.
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html

The pics of the clutch shows it was clearly destroyed and / or abused.
For a "3-puck" clutch disc to look like that, I want to know what it went through to end up like that.
Unless it was some inferior quality product (high doubtful), it would take a lot more than 300 lb-ft of torque to kill it unless it was abused (highly doubtful too).
I also question why even bother post a time slip from a run that you knew the clutch was slipping?
Maybe we just don't have the cajones like you do, but once I feel the clutch slipping, I call it a night and pack it up; the time slips get all throw in the trash.
I know you have a ton of drag racing experience, but I wonder why cause all this hubbub with a slipping clutch?


-Ted

ITO, i'm not hating on you here, but all signs here point to "hybrid stock turbo."

looks like a BNR stage 1, or maybe a t04b v-trim fitted into the stock compressor housing.

I kind of agree with RETed on this one. Good points.
His dyno video does show a top mount IC.

TOP MOUNT original intercooler. I posted a dyno video of the pull. stock ignition componets.. STOCK MEANS STOCK. no exoctic fuel, average local gas station 93 octane. no CO2 / LN2 / N2O or anything else for that matter. reason I Posted some information on this car is simple, to show the potential with a very simple set up. this is NOT my car, this is my 18 year old kid's rx7 and she is the one currently driving the car with very little track time(she did not understand the clutch was screaming and did not lift). and so far she is on a good roll. also reason the clutch pics were shown is to keep informing that the 13.0 run was with clutch slippage and better times are to come..

the car held 9lbs of boost from 5500rmps up to the factory rev limiter. rear tires were mickey thompson DOT drag radials. ignition timing was factory -5 and -20 @ the 750 rpm idle. to be continue.

forgot to ADD stock series 5 ecu.. stock means STOCK. no rtek, apex afc, NADA MEANS NADA. i will add with the 850cc secondaries the car would lean out past 9psi. later on as we go, ill find a way to add more fuel past 9psi with some additional injection.

rain our way today, but the weekend looks good. to be continue

to my knowledge is a stock series 5 turbo. here i have a picture of the ported engine installation. there you could see the factory turbo with factory compressor. that is my kid Sierra helping with the install.

(quote)..In my experience, the stock turbo is only good for 240 - 250hp at the wheels ...i made 265 on a stock s5 turbo on a ported 12a block...Attachment 11123....it is possible..good job Ito....:biggthumpup:

Dyno sheets dont mean shit at the end of the day. I had one of the bigger rotary workshops give me a dyno sheet that read 450hp, it didnt feel like 450hp, turned out on another dyno to only make 313hp. You can fudge dyno figures. Known fact. Not saying it happened in this case but I'm saying the real world results > dyno numbers. So many rotors over here in aus have dyno sheets that read 450 - 500hp and still only trap 110mph down the strip. This is probably what makes me so skeptical of things these days.

I see your point but I'm not in Australia, over the years I have posted 100% accurate dyno numbers on what ever rotary car I was working at the moment. never inflated or false numbers. no need for that. i'm on the hunt for real results. clutch on this rx7 is already fixed and waiting for the weekend.

that does not sound like a stock turbo.. when i had my s5 turbo maxed out, it made 250whp, boost dropped from 9psi to 6psi by redline, running off stock wastegate spring. If turned up the boost, the torque curve would just get better.. peak power wouldnt budge at 250whp.

the fact you gained 10 hp by upping the boost to 10psi shows me your turbo is modified.. maybe something similar to a BNR stage 1, where it looks stock because the compressor housing is milled out for bigger wheel. or maybe your hot side wheel is melted or chipped, creating the affect of a clipped wheel. who knows

I like the simplicity of your mods. people think im crazy when i just tell them just to throw some bigger secondaries in, retard the CAS by 5 deg and have at it on the stock ecu. my brother's high-comp n/a is turbo'd using 720cc sec's, TII maf, and retarded CAS and its been running 6 psi for about a year now with no problems. this results in AFRs in the 11's in boost. it leans out up top, but its because he is still running stock fuel pump.

dont believe all the advice you see on the forums, most of the time its people just regurgitating what they have read and never tried themselves

transmission had a 5th gear synchro broken and a few internal parts rattled up. fixed everything and took it for a drive, trans is behaving better and the new clutch is also reacting quicker. weather has been shitty so updates will be posted soon..

I have another series 5 turbo at my shop and I took a good look at both of the turbos. the 1 on my kid's car and the other series 5 I have spare. I came to 1 conclusion, they are both B.S.T. turbo's BST= BONE STOCK TURBOS..

I told you to sit back relax and wait for results. she improves to 12.8@108.80mph on this run the car started to drift around the 1000ft mark and she pedaled it on and off(one tire had low tire pressure) and she pulled that time. rx7 has more in it. no clutch slippage at this time..

Sierra just before her 12.8 run..

A little more seat time & she will be on her way to a mid 12 sec run.

your correct..

Well I stand corrected. Incredible results for a stock turbo.

How freaky, she looks just like my sister when she was her age.

more practice runs very soon..

Keep us posted! Fascinated thread btw.. I love all the doubters even though you have proof on paper for them to see!! lol.

Wow, small world, I think I've seen your daughter driving this car around town.
Judge Ito, do you work at a shop on Grand St in Paterson?

yes, it's her daily driver. and I recently opened Advanced Rotary Performance in Grand st.. paterson,nj

Yeah, I think I actually spoke to your other daughter. I work at autozone's commercial counter on lakeview ave, she walked in and gave me your business card.
I'm gonna need some PowerFC tuning done. PM me your rates/prices, and I'll give you a call after i get a base map set up.

Why so much skepticism? So many numbers floating around without any performance proof and no one is questioning their validity only because they´re in some ballpark what has been done.:uhh::puke:

Ito gave us dyno sheet and peformance proof, so what´s the problem?

I just put some numbers to turbo calculator, gave it very conservative IC efficiency, assumed 90% VE at peak power (I think this is pretty valid), conservative BSFC and AFR and it spit out 300 HP@crank at 9 psi boost. Torque values are also valid.

It seems that people are totally forgetting what makes power. I just happens that this very example is working efficiently despite all ods and doubts:biggthumpup:

Given the fact that Ito didn´t mentioned race weight, we can just guess. But at 3000 pounds, 300 HP would be totally valid.

Ito, could you share weight? Just to keep track with how the car performs:grouphug:

Ito's HP and Time slips are totally legit... We sold his daughter a USED Rx8 PP right before their 12 second pass. I remember her rushing her dad to get going since she had a 6pm nail appointment.

Ito had a Rx3 called Little Josh running 9.30s on nitrous and a few other cars running low 9s more than 10 years ago..For whatever reason he took a few years off and now he is back tuning and building. He is totaly capable of a 12 second pass. And I am sure he can pull off a high 11s with the stock ECU and stock turbo.

However It seems some of the doubters are folks that are either new to Rotarys or not familiar with East coast performance scene.

The HP #'s coincide with the drag strip #'s.
That's not the problem.

The problem is the stock turbo / stock ECU / (basically) stock fuel system / stock (top-mount) intercooler / *STOCK TURBO* claim.
I was hoping more info was going to be revealed before it all went to crap.
There is no way the stock turbo can support airflow at the claimed ambient temperatures at the claimed boost levels.
Although we don't have an official compressor map of the Hitachi HT-18, we can deduce it's airflow potential by measuring it's compressor wheel inducer and exducer - nothing fancy with that, and it's a well-known method to gauge turbo potential when you don't have the compressor map in front of you - I've already mentioned this, but most have ignore that reply.
That's my beef.

My experience with a Hitachi HT-18 running around 8psi to 9psi of boost would produce anywhere from 200hp to 230hp at the wheels.
Judge Ito is claiming 50hp+ over that.
I find it highly suspect.
Nothing more.
I'm not insulting him, his shop, or his reputation, but I'm sure you will argue otherwise.
Plenty of groupies will just raise the "Hater" flag, but I've been through that before.
Now you come in here and insult us by saying we don't know what the "East coast performance scene" is?
I guess you guys are running some rarified air or using some magic pixie dust out there then...
But you're just going to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and just blowing sh*t out of my ass, right...


-Ted

Pardon me if i may, I am fairly new at rotary performance but wouldn't the fact that the engine is ported which im sure was both intake and exhaust along side the larger injectors produce the extra power in question. is the principal not getting more air in and out of the engine as fast and burn it as efficiently as possible. I am very young compared to a lot of you guys and don't have nearly a quarter of the experience some of you have but i share that same passion that you do for rotaries. If the numbers are such and issue why not try your own build own setup like it and either confirm or debunk but i think its silly to keep taking stabs at one another in a irrelevant argument. i hope im not offending anyone i just want to move along and hope this forum does not turn into what the other ones have.

I'd like to know where the extra 20% to 25% gain in power came from myself?

Is it in the porting?
Does Judge Ito's porting make it that much superior that everything else out there?
That's what I want to know.

I doubt it's the porting.
Porting will only give you so much.
After a certain point, it's not the engine that's the restictions - it's the turbo.
Porting the engine all you want - bridge, PP, etc.
The turbo becomes the restriction.

It would be nice to get the answer to all of this, but I doubt that would be revealed anytime soon.
I'm not holding my breath...


-Ted

listen you fucking hater, i've posted dyno runs showing the top mount intercooler. also posted a picture of the bone stock turbo. so shut the fuck up and stop deleting my post. yes it has everything to do with my porting and engine clearancing. nothing here to hide. it is what it is. and you continue to hate.

to further avoid bumping heads with mods/admins from this site, i am done with this website. i have posted a video of the run at nopistons.com, if anybody wants/needs more info. on this car feel free to ask away over at nopistons.com where i am a moderator and have some home field advantage.

Everyone just calm the fuck down.

Really, Judge, really!
I like the premise of your build, but you've got a bad attitude, and a drama-queen complex.

I have nothing better to say, so I'm done with this thread.

drama queen? if you only knew who you are talking too. far from that.. ted has been a hater for ages all over sites. this is nothing new. i repeat. for who ever is interested, updates will be at the other site..

You still bitching about this?

Do you even realize that (ZGN) restored the majority of the replies that I had initially deleted?
Now you're blaming me for all the other deletions - which I did not do?
Geezuschrist...


-Ted

Ok, correction: a temper tantrum throwing child.


I would like to review this last pages posts, deleted ones and all.

It all started with Ted deleting some harmless posts.
Yes Ted was wrong to do that.

*What you could have done* was contact Ted and or the admins of this site and professionally discussed the deleted posts issue. I'm sure they would be undeleted and the thread would go on. They were harmless posts after all.

But instead you started getting all upset at Ted, then through PM's with the admins of this site, you blew up.
TTT posted some of those PM's which showed your childlike and unprofessional behavior.

So you post again, saying screw this site and Ted, when the posts you've posted got you in this situation.

More childlike behavior.

NEW PERSONAL BEST... 12.46@109.72 MPH


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...s124109mph.jpg

NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE TO THE CAR.. just more track time for drivers...

Grats

After being there myself and seeing it with my own eyes I would like to congratulate Judge Ito and his daughters for great driving skills in running 12.6 twice and the 12.4 run..

On her last run if she did not miss 3rd it was for sure a 12.3 run.

She has a great approach at launching where she purposely slips the clutch and spins no tire.. Wonder how much longer that stock turbo can take.

Great Job