It's a sound alright, sounds like a GUNSHOT!

nice cover though Sean.... you sick bastard. I do like where your head WAS at :rofl:

I understand though, my stomach just shifted

Very interesting. I've also got a standalone that will allow me to control these valves independently, and so far I've got the CCV, CRV, and TCV solenoids all switching at the same RPM (4000 works well so far). At low RPM, the WG solenoid is about 90% duty and the PSV is used for boost control.

Your post above suggests you might be opening the CCV before or after the TCV and CRV?


By the way, regarding TPS-based boost control, I've heard of tuners using this as a way to compensate for throttle airflow saturation. If your throttle allows about the same airflow from 70-100%, increasing the boost target at 80, 90,. 100% is one way of giving the throttle a nice linear feel. I've tried this on my car and the feel is pretty nice... I imagine it's a bit more important with big-power cars like yours, mine isn't even putting 300 to the wheels.

First, which standalone are you using?

How is your WG plumbed? If you are lowering duty to increase boost, I would think about changing that around. That is the original way I had it but upon more thought, I decided it was a bad idea. If the solenoid goes dead for whatever reason, your boost will spike out of control after the transition. Before the transition, you're right, the PSV does a nice job of controling boost, this is exactely how I have it. I would like some sort of closed loop feedback and I am still toying with it.

Yes, I am opening the CCV partially and beginning to close the CRV before the TCV kicks over. It's all based on RPM's and TP at this point. I may take a break and revisit it in the spring but right now, it's damn smooth. On low boost the transition is virtually flawless. In highboost though it's more like a 12-12-15 pattern and when that 15 hits, traction is gone in 1st and 2nd by 4200 and in third around 6 it usually breaks loose. These are RT615's sized 255/40/17.

My low boost and high boost can be adjusted with a dash mounted 9-posotion mini switch. I love the MoTeC


Yup, that's exactely how I have it setup. My MoTeC guru gave me that little tip to linearizre the throttle. You're right, increasing the throttle from 70-100% has little to no effect on the power to the ground. By adding that axis in the boost control, it gives a much more linear pedal. Right now, the table is just that, linear. At lower RPM's it doesn't do much because of the WG spring, actuation etc etc/ I need to play around with it a little more. I think in the end it will look more exponential until 5k and then level off. We shall see.

I'm interested in your project. Care to share a little?

I have an AEM EMS, stock wastegate, stock solenoid and vacuum routing... I think higher duty cycle yields higher boost. I'm not completely sure; there's an 'invert duty cycle' option in the software so I might have enabled that and forgotten about it a while ago.


I hadn't thought to control the solenoids that way (it's my understanding that the stock ECU switches them all at the same RPM), thanks for the info.


Didn't mean to distract from your thread, more info about my setup here:
http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=5496

Distract all you want Scotty, it's turned into more of a Blog with some of my friends talking about waking up the morning after a huge party next to a hermafrodite :lol: This thread is no longer about making it to DGRR '09 as those set's of mods and all the issues with them are FINALLY gone. She's about to go into hibernation for a few weeks at which point she'll come out for another laundry list of mods. These will be documented in an upcoming thread, "Diary of a Madman - See you at DGRRX"

Anywho, the stock WG solenoid is plumbed after the WG. The actuator is fed boost from the comp housing. The solenoid bleeds the boost out of the actuators chamber to raise boost. So, if the solenoid goes limp and CAN pass air through it, boost will build wildly. If the solenoid goes limp and closes, you'll contain all the boost produced in the actuator and it will run on spring pressure. I would check the FSM to see how to troubleshoot them. There will be something like blow through port a, if it passes through b without power etc etc etc. I'm using industrial solenoids, so unfortuneately my setup won't be of any help.

Does the AEM allow a different axis of adjustment of the various solenoids? If it does, with a little playing around, you should be able to get a smoother transition than the factory had. Here's what Dave & I have found in the 101 dyno pulls this car has logged. The dyno is a wonderful tool for tuning fuel and ignition maps. It's not as usefull for boost. Here's basically what we did - set everything to have a transition @ 3800 - split the difference in the factory's logic as a starting point - and set everything to happen @ 3800. We were using both the WG and the PSV to control boost and get the 2nd going (I should mention that I plumbed in a spare 2Bar Map sensor into the nipple on the secondary charge pipe between the compressor and the CCV so we could log what the 2ndary was doing for boost pre transition in an attempt to smoothen it out - again, I LOVE the MoTeC). First was a dip in boost and torque. Then we started ramping up the 2nd turbo with more PSV duty and lowering the WG. Result - a HUGE JUMP in torque at the transition.

So we started adjusting the CCV and CRV to begin and end at later and earlier points in an attempt to smothen it out. The datalogging was KEY and I can post a few screen shots if you'd like to see them. We ended up with a very small dip at the transition - on the dyno. On the street it was VERY different. There wasn't enough load or time to spool up the 2ndary so the dip was noticeable. To correct that I bumped the rpms of the transition to 4k and changed the duty of the PSV from a linear curve to more of an exponentially increasing curve. This resulted in that huge spike in torque showing again. The key, as I thought it to have been from the beginning which is why I went with the MoTeC as opposed to the PFC or the Haltech, was in smoothing out the CCV and the CRV over the course of a few hundred RPM's as opposed to instant. I should mention that I adjusted the RPM axis to allow for 50 or even 25 rpm increments so I could essentially manually control the interpolation that the ECU calculates. Basically forcing the MoTeC to quickly and exponentially ramp up the duties of the CCV and the CRV.

It's interesting to hear on the street. You can hear the PSV's solenoid clicking away building boost. You can here the CRV start to bleed it off, get louder and louder and then right at the transition it lets out one last big puff, goes silent, and boost either takes off to 15psi in high boost, or hangs out around 10 psi. Two last things to do, which are interated, is to change the boost contol from open to closed loop, and play around a little more with the PSV to increase boost a touch more at the lower rpms. With the WG set to closed loop, I'm not going to be able, at least I don't think, datalogs will tell me, control the boost pretransition unless I set the controls to only come on @ ~ 12psi. We'll see though, I need to play around with it once myh partner is back. At least I know I'm working with a good fuel/ignition map so the only thing I need to worry about is boost spikes

Logging that 2ndary boost chamber was critical though as it lets you see how you can pressurize that chamber by changing the CRV from a switched to a PWM. The valve itself may not like it, but I do :D By building pressure to the correct and equal to MAP psi and gradually opening the CRV, the transition is SEEMLESS. I don't know what it looks like on the dyno as I have yet to get back to one to confirm Dave's numbers as was disputed in this thread
http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=9174
but I suspect that it will result in that torque spike. Only becuase the Dyno slows everything down. Where Dave and I got the transition pretty smooth on the dyno, it was not so smooth on the street. That 2nd "chamber" had more time to fill itself and the 2ndary turbo had more load , more exhaust, and more energy to spool itself more. On the street she fell on her face right at the transition and then TOOK OFF.

So we'll see. It's fun though.

How are those ID injectors? I'm getting myself a set over the winter. Part of the new list of things to do. I'm very exited about them. I've heard nothing but excellent things about them from people that aren't selling them, and have been in the FI industry for decades.

That's really cool, thanks for sharing. The AEM lets me do simple on/off switching of the solenoids, based on a combination of MAP, TPS, RPM. Come to think of it, I've actually got the CRV and CCV actuators controlled by one stock solenoid (vacuum line from the solenoid is T'd to both actuators)... I think I heard about this from someone on another forum. That means I probably would be able to use one more PWM output to control that one CRV/CCV solenoid, assuming the stock solenoid will respond to the PWM signal.

I really like the idea of a spare MAP sensor for the secondary turbo... I may copy that idea someday. Attached a datalog of boost, WG duty cycle and precontrol duty (VVC#1 on the log) during a dyno pull. Now that you mention it, boost control settings that were pretty smooth on the road did yield quite a bit more fluctuation on the dyno.

Anybody else notice this thread is finally on page 69? Brian, this calls for a celebration!

Page 18 for me :dunno:

WOOT!:party: I'm wondering how my next thread will fare in comparision to this one.

Oh look at you mr I like to let my comp load massive amounts of pics all at once. I'm on 69 as well, I like the 10 posts per page esp with pic laden threads.... showoff :smilielol5:

Yeah, it was pretty strange going back and forth between the dyno and the street. (As an aside, I moved my car inside for the night a few minutes ago, so I had to go for a blast around the neighborhood. My boost pattern on low boost is 8-7-8 then QUICKLY builds to 12 and falls off slightly. High boost is 12-11-15 falling off to 14. By the time 15 is hit in 2nd, tires are loose. I NEED traction control over the winter and gear vs boost as well.) ANYWAY, back on topic. The thing that I am seeing in your graph is a tremendous drop in MAP at the transition point. What's it like on the street in the higher gears? 3rd and 4th? Is it still such a dramatic drop like that or is it smoother? I would think that with the control of the AEM you should be able to work some of that out.

What concerns me though is you're running 2 valves from one solenoid. I think that may have something to do with your dip. The valves may not be reacting fast enough giving that big drop. I output from the ECU should be ok (although I really like each output having it's own adjustability) but I wouldn't use one output, one solenoid for two valves.

The benefit of giving each valve it's own output is that you can stagger the valves ever so slightly. We started with the CRV closing and the TCV opening 50rpm before the CCV opened. Giving the big jump in CFM that resulted in the torque just taking off and kicking you in the ass. You could even feel it on the dyno. It was like brrrrrAAAAAAAAAAP :lol: But, with each valve being controled seperately, you can stagger the valving to control the airflow a little more and get something smoother.

What I would do next time you're on the dyno is focus on the fuel and ign tuning. Get a MAP that you know is good in a safe envirornment. Work up in the boost to levels that you wouldn't normally be running at. Make the twins spike to huge boot numbers so you can tune that on the dyno so when you're on the street and things don't go according to plan, if you do push 20lbs at the transition, at least you won't go painfully lean and warp an Apex seal... cause I've done that... on the dyno... from a clogged fuel filter and not up-to-snuff fuel pump wiring. Dave and I didn't do exactely that, we gradually brought the boost up and then in the higher load/lower RPM sites I took the higher load/higher RPM sites that were tuned and did the math backwards and adjusted it up slightly to run around .78 if I ever got there accidentally.

It looks like there is alot of potential in the AEM. When I called inquiring about it, whoever I spoke to, this is prob 4 years ago at this point, didn't really know much and couldn't answer specific questions so I passed on it. I figured I would need all the tech support I could get and MoTeC was it. They didn't even have thier V3 software out yet either, the first thing I did with my box was update the software :lol: and even then we had a LONG indepth discussion about how the V2 could do it with a few workarounds but the V3 would handle it without a problem at all.

:toetap05::toetap05::toetap05: It was hypothetical:rofl:

After watching the video of you following the Rx8's a few pages back, Brian, it kind of makes me want to push my FB off even more and start fucking around with the Rx8 I have instead. They are truly sticky bastards. Amazing cars, for sure. They just need more power, and I don't like the idea of really putting a turbo on the Renesis.

But damn, Brian. Every time I come back over here and check this thread it is mind boggling to me how much your car is improving when it seemingly shouldn't even be able to be improved upon. Over 400 horsepower! Congratulations man. I can't wait to be following your FD build as well. :icon_tup:

Yeah where the hell are pics of this supposed FD you bought

The dreaded FD(financial drain) curse has hit him already he prob had to cut off his internet/electric and eating catfood by now :rofl:

:D Thanks man. Yeah, the 8's are sick cars for sure. I know enough to be dangerous about the renni but if you're serious about getting big power numbers from the 8, the safest way to do it seems to be swapping in an 13B-REW. I know a few tricks, shoot me a PM if ya want a brief rundown.

So heres the story with the FD,
I needed to prep my truck for the 1700 mile trip down to NC and back. Been working on her for about 10 days doing a bunch of things that really should've already been done, but I was focusing on the FC all summer instead of driving that car and working on the truck.... but the truck is now basically done for the winter which is good. 3 minor things left to do. The plan was to leave @ 12:01am saturday morning, get down to NC around 2pm, load up, party with Tray and his crew and blast out sunday night. That didn't happen.
Instead I was up till 4 am Friday morning working on the truck. Went to sleep and got up around 11am Friday and worked on the rig until 6:30 am Saturday. Dear friend/future business partner helping out most of the tim. I hopped a shower, treated him to breakfast and left ~7:30 Sat morning. Needed fuel, Redbull, and a piss around Allentown so I swung in and saw Dave for a 1/2hr before leaving again. After traffic in Harrisburg (as in I moved ~3/4 of a mile in 2 hours) a dinner break and som fuel breaks I finally got to Tray's ~11:30 that night. Yup, another 36 hour strait deal. I rule.

Got to sleep around 2am, woke up at 11, went to pick up the trailer, huge fucking ordeal - Trays crew saved the day for me, loaded up the trailer, went out to pick up the car and meet 1Twisted7 (AWESOME guy to do business with by the way:icon_tup:) finalize the title transfer etc etc, then off to visit with Phil for a few who was in town (great seeing you again Phil) then wait for some of Tray's friends to show up thenwe headed to Cracker Barrel for grub. If you ever hang out with Tray and his friends, don't have an accent. I don't have an accent and I was accosted throughout the entire meal. Apparently I can't eat biscuits in the proper way either :rolleyes:

So after grub, I grabbed a Mt Dew and left aroud 8pm Sunday night. By 7am after 3 large redbulls, 4 hours on the phone, miles of upshifting and downshifting hauling the FD through fog so think I couldn't see 3 dashed lines infront of me, a few pee stops on the side of the road, 2 fuel breaks, a bag of skittles, a hostess cupcake and a pack of cigarettes, I had caught the ice storm that was blowing through the NE. It was right about in Allentown so I said eff it and went back to KDR. Got there around 7:15, Jordan was there so I used the can, and went back to my truck where I blasted the heat for 5 minutes, turned the truck off and passed out. Physically woke up @ 10 shivering but mentally woke up around 11 after three cups of coffee and I don't know how many cigarettes and another redbull. Hung out with Dave and his guys until about 2 when I left and beat the traffic.

So..... 11am Fraiday to 2am Sunday..... no sleep. Slept for 9 hours and then went from 11 am Sunday to 7 am Monday, slept for 2 hours and now it's 11pm Monday night and Tyler wants pics? Just kidding hun :kiss: Right now she's in my driveway still on the transport still connected to my Mighty XJ (which was getting somewhere around 16mpg towing averaging 61mph - I LOVE my Cherokee)

So I should have some pics up tomorrow. The Financial Disaster hasn't set in just yet. I won't be able to devote ANY time.... aside from washing her tomorrow and tucking her away next to the FC in Le Annex Part Duex tomorrow until April. After the FC is back together and ready for DGRRX. Then I'll start on the FD. It'll be a full rotisserie build. First thing is to strip her down completely, total prime, undercarriage, first blush bodywork, electrical, interior, drivetrain, blow her apart for paint, then re-assemble. I'd LOVE to have her done for DGRR '11 for personal reasons, so that means 12, and more likely '14 :banghead:

:lol: dude i thought you had already picked it up. That's 1 hell of a hall, i love my truck more it doesn't make me work on it tell 4am to get it ready for a tirp ;)

:rofl: Hey a man needs his priorities

Yeah but I was doing shit like building an AL roof rack, mounting and wiring 620W of AUX lighting, mounting 5gal aux tank, Sat radio, Ipod, and I needed some helper springs for the lift because of the monster swingout and and 31" mudder hanging off the back & I sorta neglegted a tuneup for 60k. I still love my truck. All of it was really needed with the exception of the Aux tank... but I was CLOSE!!! She was stumbling as I pulled into a gas station in NC @ 11 becuase the first three that I found were closed.

Aight, I gotta go finish off Le Annex Part Duex and get her inside while it's unseasonably warm outside... 50* WOOT!!!!!

Yikes.

Brian you need to own stock in Redbull lol. Cant wait to see the FD!!

I hope he has stock in redbull might as well make some money off his own habit

I don't know how you do it.

I guess this is why most people don't have 400 WHp Twin-turbo FCs :)

:smilielol5: Yeah I prob should buy some stock in it. I don't live off the stuff, but it certainly does help nurture my deviant sense of determination

:D Yeah I do seem to not be disuaded by most crap. It actually motivates me a little more. Knowing me I'll probably crank through everything that I need to do and be working on the FD my Feb ;)

hey bryan hope you enjoy the fd . nice to know that you made it home safe!!

See with as much redbull as he drink he just pee's in the gas tank and there you have it 400whp

http://users.planetmadtv.com/elscorc.../coffeeguy.gif



:suspect:

still no pics of the FD?

:rofl:
:beatdeadhorse5:










:lol:

Hey Rico! Thanks again for everything man, I really appreciate it. I did get home safe, I had to stop at Dave's on Monday morning and crash out in his parking lot for a few hours but we made it. Thanks again for everything!

:smilielol5: I learned on the trip down that you don't argue with a redbull pee. Coffee and redbull pee's are even worse. There's too much energy to contain for too long :rofl:

:rofl:

I have them, she's still on the trailer, which has to be back today. I've still been working on Le Annex Part Duex so I've had very little time. I'll have them up tonight though.

Patience muffin :kiss:

A friend of mine drank 3 rockstars and said when he pissed if felt like fire was coming out of his pee hole

:9898:

hey buddy it was nice to meet you. Look forward to seeing you again at the dragon!

Thats the gonge burning :)



Its tonight B - where are those pics!??? Like I have any room to talk.. I've been heavily slacking on photos lately!

Did he seep with any shady ladies around the time of the incident?

I don't think so.... I' was peeing strangley Sunday as well... up till yesterday..... alright... I'll get some pics up tonight

Health is overrated! :)

hey hey hey! fibber! were are the pics!

lol i said fib

He who has the most toys :D
 

Yeah sorry guys. We're getting ready to be bitch slapped by a foot+ of snow and I had to get my girls under cover. After i dig out I'll get one more pic of thier hibernation spot. Hopefully I can get the FC out ONE more time. Need to hit the local dyno and get out to Dave one last time as well.

As promised.... here are some pics. I have since added the obligatory rotor sticker to the back of the Jerry Can :smilielol5:

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1261248333

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1261248333

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1261248333

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1261248333

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1261248333

My buddy and future business partner took one look at the FD and said, "I know you're going to out-vote me on this, but she's the PERFECT candidate for a race car." I almost slapped him :rofl: I can't believe I own an FD. WOOT!!!!! There will be a VERY detailed thread in a few months when I get into her, total build thread. We're going to use her as a rolling advertisement for what we can do. And as a template for a bunch of custom parts that we will offer, Tray and Phil will be the Test Mules. The parts will be "Dragon Approved" :smilielol5: