Oh, last two things to test, although I'm only going to do one is to drive the girl around and see if the psi holds steady before and after the filter. There is basically little flow with the engine off. As you run her hard, you're asking for more pressure AND more flow, now alot of it isn't making it to the reg. So after the Walbro goes in tomorrow and passes my series of A tests, I'll go for a rip around the neighborhood and see what the pressures are like while under full boost. If they remain pretty consistant, I'm racing Sunday.

I would buy everything that I could from Griffin, I love those guys. I don't know if they make oilcoolers though. The next car I build - FD :D - will have as many heat exchangers from Griffin as possible. I do love my Mocal oil coolers though. I was seeing 139* oil temps on the drive out yesterday. Highway, about 55* ambient.

It's driving me fucking crazy too. Although I think at this point the contamination is gone but the damage is done and the pump is now fucked. THe intervals between cloggings are getting mush shorter. Interestingly enough I was on the phone with Aeromotive today and telling them about the black shit in the filter. He says, it could be the pump getting hot or sluggish and the armatures grinding crap off the magnets. I've seen that but you'd have a whole different set of problems if that was the case. Awesome, I totally discounted that comment until I A tested the Cosmo pump. :banghead:

Sorry Scott, I got nothing. We all just sorted stared milling around all pissed off. Still running NS too but the boost comes on as soon as you hit the gas. Dave was punching her @ 3500rpm & ~0 boost and by 4300 we were seeing about 13.5psi..... non sequential. Sequential should melt the tires off. I HAVE to head back. Poor Dave has been wanting to play with the sequentials since he saw the software but we can never get there.

What's even funnier, is in late June when we cooked engine #3 (actually CLOGGED filter as in held fuel) I said jokingly that we were going to break records, finish the sequentials, but it would be so late in the year that I would drive her home and pull her apart for the winter. Guess what's going to happen. I can't get back to Dave until the 2nd week in November and I always take her off the road Turkey Day w/e or before if there's going to be snow.

You bunch of pussies ;) I have no weekends until probably 11/15... sorry man. Maybe 11/8. DGRR is a definate though, without a doubt. Hopefully have 3-4 cars there if all goes according to plan, which it never does. Are you planning on doing the same thing you did last year or head down with us on Thursday?

Are there any other Bear Mt or OCC meets left in Nov?

Just a question: Are you running a returnless fuel system, because if not, the fuel flow rate is fixed by the pump, it either goes in the injectors or through the FPR, but it always flows the same from the pump at a given fuel pressure. With the engine off, the pump should see load equivalent to 0 psi boost. Under boost, the pump has to make 13.75 psi more fuel pressure.

I think that you are on to something, but maybe not exactly as you described it above. I think that your fuel pump is overheating, which is decreasing the available fuel throughput of the pump and is starving your engine for fuel. You can boost for short spurts just fine, but the pump can't handle the 57 psi for very long without drawing more current.

One more thing, it is likely a multi-stage impeller-type pump, which means that under boost (when the pressure is higher) the flow will actually decrease due to limitations of that design, without factoring in the change in coil resistance due to temperature. (Look at turbo-map speed lines for an idea of the curve shape).

You should have a fuel pressure correction map in the Motec... If not, you can set up an inverse trim to the 0-5V input. Maybe that will avoid going lean in the future.

Nope, it's a return system. -6 Stainless return hardline. The all the pulls up till the last three showed about 55 psi of rail pressure. The filter that plugged last week, after we replaced it I drove around for 600 miles without an issue at all. I'm starting to think that the contamination is the pump disintegrating.

I agreee. Which is why on my 20 minutes communtes there is no issue or when I drive 150 miles to Daves and cruise down the highway at ~36psi of rail pressure and very little flow, there is no problem. But pull after pull after pull just over works the pump.

Not sure of the type of pump that it is. Same as all the others I'd imagine.

I do, I've looked at it, and I've already started working on some sort of correction MAP. The only problem is, and admitatdy I haven't spent a great deal of time on it, if we see down to 31 ish psi, there isn't a problem, when under decel. So I'm still pondering how to input the table to account for the needed fluctuations in boost. It'll come to me one night at 3 in the morning when I can't sleep.

It is an easy map.

According to our buddy Bernoulli, Fluid flowing through an orifice (fuel delivered) is proportional to the square root of the differential pressure (should be 43 psi for you). This is fixed as the fuel pressure is biased to the manifold pressure, thus the pressure drop across the injector is always constant.

Thus, you would flow 1.41 Times as much fuel at 43 psi as you would at 21.5 psi.

The map should be very easy to plot.

EDIT:

Whoops! I forgot about a factor that will make the map extremely difficult, you are not measuring differential pressure, you are measuring gauge pressure and absolute pressure in the manifold. This math will be a little more complicated.

If you have a barometric pressure input to the Motec, you can configure a Math channel (I think that a Motec will do this). Set the math channel to Differential_Pressure = Fuel pressure + Barometric pressure - (Manifold pressure (in kPA) * 0.145). If you don't have barometric pressure, call it 14.7 psi and you will be close enough.

Now you can use the above relationship to compute your fueling correction parameters and avoid engine damage (we would all be very sad to hear that you damaged the engine while you were checking the local dyno against Dave's).

Another edit due to random thought while at work:

If your fuel pump would ever run out of capacity, it would be at maximum RPM and maximum boost. I think I explained this earlier, I just got to thinking that my previous post was slightly confusing. If the fuel pressure is dropping before the filter, the fuel pump has to be the weak link. A good way to test this would be to pressurize the FPR with a bicycle pump or something to 15 psi and let the fuel pump run for a while. If the pressure starts to drop relative to the bike pump (should run 43 psi above pressure from bike pump consistently). This means that your Fuel pump can not make that much pressure, even at 0 flow (the FPR will eventually shut the fuel flow though it off completely as the fuel pressure is dropping). If the fuel pump can maintain the pressure, The next calculation that you need to make is the maximum flow that you achieved through your injectors (which should be straight forward if you know the injector size).

Next, you will need to get a graduated cylinder and take off the return line from the fuel rail to the fuel tank and feed it into the cylinder. Keeping the bicycle pump at full boost (~15 psi) measure the flow rate that the pump is able to make. Time how long it takes the pump to fill the graduated cylinder 3/4 full. This could take a minute or so, depending on the size of your graduated cylinder, Several liters would be better (I use a 5-gallon pump calibrators bucket).

Armed with this information, you will know conclusively if your pump can indeed supply enough fuel to the engine.

If I were you, I would run the pump for a couple minutes and then retry the flow test (you will need two ball valves to change the FPR return location quickly).

B- could you shoot some close ups of your ducting work/radiator mounts and post them up? I'm planning on beginning that taken care of on mine sooner rather than later.

Sorry man, only pics I got I already posted. Tell ya what, bring the rig up here and I'll build it for ya after 1/1/10 :D

Ask any questions that you want though. I LOVE the setup but honestly I went too big. My coolant temps never get above 173* on the highway and on my last trip to Dave my oil temps were @ 139*!!! That's honestly too cold. I'm thinking about building some muffs but when I sit in traffic, the oil temps get up there, and by up there I mean 210*. The only time my coolant temps ever got about 187* was sitting on the rollers for the emmisions test.... then both water and coolant hit something like 265* and chunked the rear/rear side seal

Man....good thread. Looks really sharp!

Thanks man.

That was a good edit, worthy of it's own post because I almost didn't see it. The one thing that you forgot to mention is A draw from the pump as well. This is what I've been doing the last few nights is checking flow, A draw, and pressure before and after the filter.

So far I have concluded that my Cosmo pump has puked. It's drawing 12.5A @12v and 15 A @ 13.5V. The fucker is gone. In fact, the dicoloration that I'm seeing in the filter is most likely chunks of magnet getting spit out - per a theory from the Aeromotive tech that I spoke too who has actually seen that happen. My theory is this, I know I have had epoxy clogged filters in the past, you could peel it off the filter. So, I believe that the filter brought up the delta acorss itself so high that the pump just overworked itself. This is what cost engine #3. Prior to going to the dyno I had been running a Bosch 044 but MY GAWD is that fucker loud. The night before I put the Cosmo pump back in (pressure had been fine with the Bosch pump all the way to redline running pig rich) and drove out to Dave. On the drive out the Fuel Pressure sender puked. First pull she went way lean and warped 2 Apex seals. On the drive home I had to stop a few times to add fuel to the entire map to stay on the safe side of stoich. This also happened a few times on some longer road trips. I thought the filter was just clogging, in fact, I think the pump was just getting hotter and hotter and hotter (scary thought actually)

So got home from fragging engine #3 and in fact the filter was clogged with epoxy. Cleaned that thing out and continued to run the same pump ASSuming it was the filter :banghead: Fastforward to this weeks adventures and towards the end of the day the "filter clogged" Changed it out (let the pump relax for ~45 minutes) and made one pull and alls well, go for the money pull (she did do 402.77) and the "filter clogged" again. Without changing the filter I'm testing the delta and it's actually ~.3psi less BEFORE the filter. Here's why I think that is. At the reg I'm using a 100psi sender and 10" of -3 line. Before the filter I'm using a 250psi sender and 4' of -4 line (all I had) So given the extra length to travel, and the lower resolution of the 250psi sender, I'm saying they are damn close and the delta is virtually unmeasurable as it should be with a filter with 150 miles and 2 dyno pulls.

Think about what we're asking the pump to do on the dyno though, run 56 psi basically all day long. Now in speaking with Dave he has run the Cosmo pump all the way to 500rwhp. Not the greatest but it does. We're also using the same pressures as well. The only 2 Cosmo pumps that he's seen fail were sugared. It's a good pump, but I don't think I'll be buying a new one just becuase it broke once (although the circumstances sucked) but I don't like replacing broken parts with the same thing.

So I've tested the Cosmo pump and it failed.
I tested my Bosch pump and it works, but loud as fuck
I have my buddies Walbro GSS341 which flows enough that I am testing tonight. If it's considerably quiter than the Bosch and holds pressure and flow, I'll run that until I can find my ultimate pump. I'm thinking it's going to the Apexi BNR33 or is it 32? Dunno but something like that. I want... need a quite pump. Bosch is too damn loud. Flows like a bejuzus but loud as hell.

So, off to install a Walbro now:banghead:

GTFO, Eric

LOL you're gonna have me praying my modified supra pump never has issues although i haven't heard much about anyone having problems with em.

Per Dave, the TT Supra pump IS the Cosmo pump. He loves the Cosmo pump.

Going for a test drive. If the flow holds @ max boost, Walbro pump - believe it or not - takes it. Mainly becuase the A draw is about 75% of the Bosch and the noise.... oh thankfully it's so much quiter than the Bosch.

Although, 2nd gear pull on race tires in the rain is going to be sketchy. I loose traction by 5500 in the dry :D If there's a problem to have, traction is a good one to have

I was hoping that it was just the pump and not plugged injectors, or overheating injectors, or debris in the FPR (so that it can't close completely), or sugar in the fuel tank, or some other weird issue that I haven't seen yet.

Large injectors are very expensive, so anything injector related would have been very bad news.

I am interested to see a dyno graph on the sequential turbos after you get them tuned.

Did you port the turbos or do anything to them? I have a set of Twins that I have had forever (I don't even remember why or where I got them). I checked them over today and they appear to be in good shape. I might go that route after your inspiring example.

(First I should learn to work as hard and fast as you and get around to replacing my rotors. I seem to lack motivation because the car runs fine right now.)

If you're serious I may take you up on it. School right now is kicking my trash (Astro-Mechanics, Thin-Walled Structures, Vehicle Vibrations and Controls, Thermo Dynamics, Aero/HydroDynamics, with a manufacturing processes lab for fun). I'm aiming to get something put together next weekend and I think I have a design in mind--we'll see though.

Once I have that and the scavenge pump in I can start concentrating on the important things (ECU, and custom manifold). But I imagine that this car won't be "done" until I'm in my own house and can actually take it completely apart and build it from the ground up.

PS, I demand more pictures/movies. Or I may just have to send you a hooker to bribe them out of you.

How loud are those 044's? I'm gonna have 2 of them in my hatch feeding off a surge tank. Sounds like I might have to make an insulation box around them.

Why thank you. I would definately consider them, I love them, even run non-sequentially they make great power. If the gearbox was a little better geared there would really be no need for the sequentials but alas, not yet. Really was prominent today at the auto-x

The only thing that I did to the turbo's was port the WG, replace the flapper, and ease the opening into that area. Other than tha, they are bone stock.

The injectors aren't that bad, ~$65 each I think? Although they are getting replaced over the winter I believe. We were touching 89% duty cycle on the 403 run with another pound to add. i may be upgrading the injectors and the ignition over the winter as well. We'll see what happens if we can ever get a clean dyno day out of her

Dead serious. PM me if you want to chat about it. We'll definately be able to work something out though.

LOUD! They make the Walbro seem silent..... seriously. To bad you already bought two, I would've sold you mine. Wait, two Scott? Seriously? That's a ton of flow man!

First: What size injectors are you running ?
Second: Where did you steal them?
Third: 89% slightly high, even for peak and hold (are they linear at that Duty cycle)?

I am currently throwing a lot of ideas around so I may not get to the Twin Turbo idea for a while.
Idea #1 Semi-PP (to be daily driven).
Idea #2 Attempt to get 200+ WHp from 6-port
Idea #3 Try for 300 WHp NA out of my 4-port (Street port only)
Idea #4 Install Twin Turbos (or GT37) and try for 432 WHp (2X NA HP) at 14.5 psi boost (even if, by then, it will have been done before).

Hey, if you want to get one of these off my list for me, I would be content with your word on the feasibility of the 200+ WHp 6-port. (You know you always wanted another project).

The Turbo mod can be done (as you have so illustriously proved), so I mostly would just do it because I want a 432 WHP RX7, the Semi-PP is also because I want one, and the 300 WHp NA streetport is because I think I can.

I go away to paradise and have to come back to this crap! J/K man.. I'm totally stoked you nailed that 400whp with room left!

Of course, this means I'll have to make 450whp, but thats ok. I was going to mention to you at some point, maybe get a locking gas cap, lol. Hopefully the lab gets you some news you can use on the clogging!

That's alright, make your 450RWHP, I'll still have 2x your power down low :D

If I can ever find a lab that will test filters, I'll be all set. Although now I'm starting to think that it wasn't sabotage, but instead the pump starting failing along time ago and the "Clogging" is due in part to the pump sucking down 2x the amount of Amps that it should, running hot, running slow, and puking parts of magnet, armature, etc, out of itself.

750/1000 - original power goal was to be 350-380. We're beyond that so they're a little short on duty right now.

Marren Fuel Injection.

No, which is why I want to go a little bigger. I'm shopping around and will probably change out both primary and secondary but stick to 750. I'm looking into some Paul Yaw injectors to swap out over the winter. Also thinking about swapping fuel rails too. We're not entirely sure.

I like the semi p-port idea. I think 200whp from a 6-port is feasible, I've seen 187rwhp. Although the 13 extra will probably require a MAP based system and a custom intake, but I bet it's doable. 300whp from a 4-port would be sweet though, I bet you'd have to spin the bejeezus out of it, and run a custom mani. I think it's a stretch though. The highest N/A hp I've ever heard of, strait from the mouth of the guy that did it was 380BHP in a P-Port.. 380BHP would equate to ~315 wheel.

In my opinion, in order to get 2x N/A power running just about 2x N/A "boost" you would need a turbo whoes "plugging" effect is equal to the very small amount of power that's missing from the vac @ WOT. It would be interesting to dyno this engine N/A.

I think I found one actually - I may be picking up an FD roller in the very near future :D I think 200 whp in a 6-port is entirely possible.

Semi P-Ports are cool. I would be much more impressed with a 2 rotor, 300 whp N/A though... that would be badass.

You can say that again!! I would love to see that (0.91L and 38 BTDC timing FTW)

Do you intend to take the Twin Turbo out and put it in the FD and then build the 6-port for the '88? If so, I would hope that most of the beautiful intercooler work would port over to the FD (although I think you like doing that kind of thing anyway).

I won't know until I see what I get for power from an E8 (Yukon Coil packs) and 9.5:1 rotors. According to my calculations:
Actual Power: 216 WHp @ 7500 rpm and 160 Wlb-ft @ 6100 rpm
Power based on VE with 8.2:1 rotors (if ignition is really an issue and it isn't something else) = 248 WHp @ 8500 rpm and 176 Wlb-ft@7700 rpm
Power based on no VE change going to 9.5:1 rotors (11% increase) = 277 WHp @8500 rpm and 195 Wlb-ft @ 7700 rpm
Power based on lower dynamic head loss from shorter-runner custom intake manifold (Shifting power band 1000 rpm) = 195 Wlb-ft@ 8500 rpm = 315 WHp @ 8500 rpm

Bear in mind that none of these calculations require VE in excess of 108%, nor do they require revving in excess of 9,000 rpm, so they should be completely feasible. Of course, this relies on piston-engine rules of thumb holding true. Namely:
Torque is a direct function of VE
Compression ratio improves performance by about 8% per full number in the 9:1 range
Intake runner loss calculations (relying on relative surface smoothness, number of bends and length) are similar for a rotary.

We will find out in the spring (if I ever get the high compression rotors in the engine and an E8 for in the car).

(I am expecting the streetport to exceed my P-port power, actually) I am going to build the P-port using Renesis housings so that I can locate my exhaust port differently.

HA! That's ballsy for an engine that's so pristine ;) I would have to build an entirely new exhaust system and I seem to be getting overloaded with projects this winter. Altough, I think the RE mani would be the best suited for an N/A - least amount of bends.

The FD will recieve a 13B-RE engine. Whether it is the engine that is in the FC, that will be determinted based on timing. Ideally I'd build an RE with twin GT28's or 32's sporting thier own wastegate and runner. They'd be parellel which is why I'm leaning towards the GT28's. I'd like to see 450 RWHP and slightly quicker spool than I'm getting with the twin's running non-sequential.

I still haven't put a deposit on the FD, although I did just call the owner to let him know that I'm ready to do so.


What are you running for coils now?
I would REALLY like to see some back to back comparisions between whatever coils you're using now and the Yukon truck coils. I'm actually planning on upgrading to them over the winter. Either those or some Bosch coils that have been dyno proven to give an increase over the renni coils which the guys at MoTeC loved for a long time.

If you're going for some 9.5:1's.... isn't it 9.7:1?.... why not just go for broke and rock some FE 10:1's?

Why would you expect a street port to exceed the P-Port? The P-Port will be peakier no doubt, but it can swallow a ton more air. I would think that the P-Port would overtake the street port after a certain RPM.

So I thought I would give a little update.

The Supra TT pump, while it is dimensionally the same as the Cosmo pump, it is infact ever so slightly different in it's output. It produces roughly 10% more flow than the Cosmo pump at the same voltages and pressures. I am currently looking for the cheapeast place to buy them so if anyone can get them for <$200, let me know. That's the cheapest I've been able to find.

This pump, while it's basically the same as the Cosmo pump and I don't like replacing broken parts with the same parts, will give me the flow that I need if I decide to swap turbo's and go for a 450whp turbo setup. I doubt the I will though. THe car is retardedly fast as it is. I was at a autox event over the weekend on race tires and couldn't keep traction at all. Traction Control is something that I need to do over the winter. I need to work an input to turn it off though

Oh now you want 450whp, lol. I just plant a little seed and watch it grow :)

When do you start your winter projects?? More importantly the stopping part of the equation?

First project shows up tomorrow - and it's a boat :rofl: Once that's done, time depending, the trailer gets done, then we'll see. I'd like to get my FC stripped and put back together before the end of the year so if something comes up, she's already ready for DGRR. I'm hoping for an FB resto to be here around 1/1 and if it's not, I'll prob get crackin on my FD (assuming I get it) and then back to the stoppage of the FC in early March.

If you polished the outside radius of each bend and equalized your cross-sectional area throughout the runner and matched that to the port. You should see significant improvements on my 216 WHp. I would expect your engine to make about 240 WHp as it sits, (given the previous assumptions based on piston engine knowledge) With the following additional assumptions:
Intake port timing has been changed to close a little later than stock.
Intake manifold has been port matched, but not blueprinted.
Non-polished rotors do not significantly impede flow past TDC cusp in the rotor housing.

If your manifold were Blueprinted (constant cross-sectional area through entire intake runner) I think you could look 260 WHp in the face.
If you didn't change stock port timing, I think you could get 285 WHp.

Believe it or not, (it seems impossible to convince turbo guys of this) 0.91L will not hurt your engine NA. 1.1L will not hurt your engine NA. You will not burn a hole in a rotor (your rotors are oil-cooled) and detonation is not a problem when you are naturally aspirated. Ignition timing is not a problem either, run whatever give peak power (34 BTDC may be better for you with 9.0:1 CR and un-polished rotors). If it makes you feel better, run 0.86L (this will give almost identical power to 0.91, these are the edges of the peak power range).

Why RE and not REW? I think that the RE has bigger intake ports (could be good, if runners will match) and earlier exhaust port opening (not necessarily good for EGT). What other advantages does it have?

Bone Stock 200,000+ miles coils that came on the car.


The rotors are 9.5:1 because they have been polished to 2000 grit and lightened to < 4kg. (CR empirically determined with sealed ports).

I have a very limited budget for this car, most of my parts were either obtained out of the scrap hopper at work, given to me by friends or custom fabricated by your's truly. I try not to spend much money on this hobby.

I don't intend for the P-port to be a crazy runner, I am not building it for such. It will have 9.4:1 normal rotors, minimal overlap (for a PP) and tame port sizing. My goal is not to rev it to 12,000 rpm and make power all the way, but rather to see if I can get it to be mild-mannered and street-drivable while still making 250 WHp. I see it as the poor man's PP.

The only way to make a P-Port swallow more air than a streetport is to make the intake port larger than the combined total of both intake ports on the street port and to make the exhaust backpressure absolutely minimal, while maximizing the intake pressure. High-overlap engines tend to be more finicky and make less average power than equivalently built lower-overlap engines. Building them is not really that easy. (For example, I have a combined cross-sectional area of intake ports/runners of 3.2 in2, this would be a very large P-port, slightly over 2-inch diameter). I am intending more like a 1.7-2.0 in2 port cross-section for the p-port. I want to try for max power on a later p-port, but this one will have stock internals and I will not rev it past 9,000 rpm (eliminating the need for big ports).

Piston engine guys need large overlap times to scavenge the chambers and to get air through their restrictive intake valves and runners. Rotaries don't have any of those problems with > 270 degrees of eccentric shaft rotation per intake stroke from a street port or 320 from a p-port (duration is not that much better on the P-Port)

The VE (empirical, based on fuel and AFR, probably reads 3-5% high due to injector energization delay) on my 4-port breaks 100% @ 4800 rpm, peaks at 108% @ 7700 rpm and drops to 102% @ 9,000 rpm. At tuned resonance, a P-port could achieve ~125% VE (due to overlap), but could not hold that for a broad torque curve. Peaky power bands do no good for performance, area under the Horsepower curve is your friend.

I really should be posting this in the general Rotary tech section, but most of it is already there.

That's retarded amounts of HP.
Intake timing is slightly later on closing, intake mani port-matched but not blueprinted..... thought about going the extrude hone route but decided to save that expense for two reasons,
1-see if there actually is a difference worth the $600 or more cost
2-didn't want to spend the coin of I didn't need to in order to hit my goal

You don't have to convince me, I know for a fact that it won't. It just amazes me the difference any amount of boost makes to these engines. .85-.9 seems to be where the most power can be made though, regardless of turbo or not. There's just an extra safety margin when you tune it to .8. For example, I was looking through the datalogs from this past weekends auto-x, L were around .9 the whole time, when on the highway they were below .8....... tires were constantly breaking loose. 3rd gear pulls will read leaner than 4th gear pulls on the dyno too because everything is slowed down.



RE has bigger runners, less of a complex UIM, and the LIM is MUCH more balanced. The only way I would do an REW would be with the GZ LIM. To fit an RE in an REW all you have to do is get the rear iron drilled and tapped to accept the stock motor mounts. You actually might not even need to do that. You could probably fabricate something off the subframe to use the RE's stock mounts and adapt some FB or FC mounts.

I like to open the exhaust up for an earlier opening but not change the closing at all. That's what I did with this RE engine and it seems to work pretty well. EGT's are just fine with this.



Nice, I'm wondering how weak the LS1 coils are compared to the LS2 truck coils. Cleaning my fuel up from .75 to .8 nets HUGE gains in power. Much more than you would expect. I'm wondering if there isn't a problem igniting the rich mix and that's were all the stumbling comes from.




Gotcha, interesting that you lost so much CR from such minimal work. Were they balanced as well?

me too :rofl:



Interesting math on the P-port vs street port. As for the VE's, that's a ton of math man!

Can't help you with that one :)

Didn't someone make 217 Dynojet WHp using an RE on the 'evil forum'

I was pretty sure that the RE was the best flowing manifold (when stock). Polishing runners decreases the boundary layer thickness in the runner, which effectively increases the cross-sectional area. I have seen visualizations (dust in air, etc.) with a significant boundary layer of 0.25 inches. This decreases the equivalent diameter to 1/2 inch less.

My stock Primaries were 1.1" minimum effective diameter, based on the surface finish they would have a 0.17 - 0.2 " boundary layer, giving a dynamic effective diameter of around 0.75"

My stock Secondaries were 1.375 minimum effective diameter, giving me about 1.0" dynamic effective diameter. This means that I had a dynamic cross-sectional area of about 1.25 in2

With a 400 grit polished surface, I have a 0.03" Boundary layer (using simplifications of eddy generation) This means that my 1.3" effective diameter Primaries have a 1.24" dynamic effective diameter, while my 1.63" Secondaries have a 1.57" effective diameter. This gives a dynamic cross-sectional area of 3.14 in2. Matching these to 2.95 in2 dynamic cross-sectional area (combined) intake ports (80 grit polished) gives a near-optimal combination (slight increase in velocity after fuel mixing).

Ports that are too big are actually worse for NA power than slightly small ones (loss of velocity will cause poor fuel mixture, causing uneven charge distribution, uneven and incomplete combustion.

Some rough on the inside of each bend is good. (Maximizing turbulence on the inside actually improves air distribution in the runner). My LIM is not balanced, nor are the runner lengths any where near optimal (3300 rpm Helmholtz, 18,000 Sonic). Which is why I want to build a 9" runner intake for my engine.

Just stick a stock exhaust manifold and 2-feet of slightly bent pipe (to minimize clean air reversion to the wideband) on your engine and run it, that will give you as much power as a full exhaust with headers (Dave might not appreciate the sound). I really want to see what you make, so that I can compare my calculations with some real numbers.

DISCLAIMER:

Actual numbers for my engine have been obtained using careful measurement of the cross-sectional area of the intake runners on my manifold. All other numbers are a result of my interpretations of complex formulas, personal experience with 4 and 2 stroke piston engines, advice/suggestions from competant friends and research into this field (SAE papers, books, etc.).

I am not sure that any of the knowledge applies to rotary engines, which is why I have undergone this process, to determine if it does.
So far these NA piston engine rules of thumb have been validated:
Peak power at 0.9L = 13.3:1
Peak torque at 38 degrees BTDC
Torque is function of VE (up to 6,000 rpm, anyway).

NA piston engine Rules of thumb yet to be validated:
If Torque is not linear function of VE, ignition timing or intensity is suspect
Around 9.0:1 CR, torque increases about 8% per full CR increase (8.5:1 - 9.5:1).

My personal theory about Port overlap being unnecessary on a rotary engine as 270 degrees of duration is possible without it is yet to be validated.

SECOND DISCLAIMER:
Please don't misunderstand my continued abuse on late intake port closing. For a turbo application, it is ideal, as it allows additional boost while maintaining equivalent peak compression pressures.

I don't offer much advise to turbo engine builders, as I have very little experience with turbo cars, Snowmobiles, Small block and big block Chevy, Small block Ford, Small block Chrysler, Type 1 - 4 Volkswagen beetle, etc. is where I have experience.

I have 2 numbers to call tomorrow

I should buy a second RE UIM and LIM (I actually had a set, but sold it :banghead: Oh well, I would want to buy an entire engine anyway to get a few extra parts as well) and send it to you to play with, then send it to be coated, then bolt it on this engine and see what the difference is. I'd be interested.



It's not a matter of noise on the dyno, it's a matter of driving 5 hours with it and spending a few hours taking the turbo's off and then re-installing them. I'd like to try it as well as I'm always interested in actual numbers as opposed to internet dyno's. Sadly though, I don't have the time for it right now. Next year maybe. Right now I'm scratching my head trying to find time to build a legal exhaust system so I can pass emmisions and keep the car "legal" by 11/22.... I hate CT. After this it's one more time.... ugh. Lets hope they don't pop an engine this time.

The rotary as it applies to port timing, overlap, VE, CR, etc etc etc is a totally different animal. Fuel will make the peak torque regardless of what engine it's it becuase it's still being ignited in the same envirornment. The Ignition timing I would have suspected would hold true as well because it takes the same amount of time (degrees of rotation based on BTDC timing) to ignite to build peak cylinder pressure. Add boost though, and all that goes out the window. I still believe that one of the reasons the rotary is so susceptable to detonation is in the overlap. Not because of a scavenging effect, but becuase hot exhaust gases can very easily make thier way into the intake charge and well, boom

Update -

Bought a Supra TT pump today and it's slated to arrive on Thursday.

Hopefully the final playdate with Dave is set. Like I said back in June, we're gonna get this thing all set and ready to rock and roll and I'm gonna pull her apart for the winter.

Oh, last update - I've joined the ranks of the legally insane - I bought an FD roller :rofl::driving::rofl: Picking her up sometime around the start of December after I get one boat gone, my boat winterized, and a lean-to built out of shrink wrap to keep her in for the winter. What in the hell am I thinking? Oh wait, I know :driving:

So here's a question for the people following this thread.........
I've got a bunch of things that I plan to do over the winter to the FC. The first trip will be to DGRRX. So, do I continue with this thread and re-name it, or do I start a new one titled - I hope I make it to DGRRX beginning when I pull her apart to tackle my ever expanding To-Do list?

Hey, I have an idea, make up an NA exhaust for the emissions test, then there will be no boost, and they can't hurt the engine. You have to fab up exhaust for the cat anyway.

You can download the driving cycle they will run and go to Dave's and tune the map to run in the Stoic range throughout that cycle (and get some NA power numbers too).

New thread - I have to change my title too, I'm on year 7 now, lol.....



Oh, and I hate you and your FD buying SOB ass :) I expect nothing but perfection with that build as well!

Damn, an FD as well? It's a vicious cycle now!

Because of the way the engine mounts are turbo/mani mounts are, it's REALLY difficult to get the turbo's out of the car without hauling the engine. I'm reluctant to go through all that for a severe lack of time. On the other hand, you make a good point about it not being turbo for the emmisions test. However, it wasn't the turbo that fucked everything up, it was 6500+rpms for over 5 minutes that did it, not boost. We'll see when I go back in a few weeks time though.

First order of business is going to be building a centersection with the Magnaflow cat I have, then it's off to a local dyno with the CT emmisions machine so we can do a little tuning in an attempt to get her to pass. If she don't, airpump and "exhaust leak" time :D Meh, I really don't care honeslty, as long as I get my new stickers, CT can go eff itself.

That's what I'm thinking too, mainly becuase I'll be tearing the car down deeper than she was a year ago to put her on the rotisserie for the undercarriage work. That will be badass to see for sure. I'm only hoping I have funds after this FD purchase to do the brakes that I want to do. Hopefully, we'll see. I had that cash earmarked for the brakes, now 66% of it is going for this roller...... vicious cycle.


This will be another 2-3 year build. Along the same lines as what I've done in the past but not nearly as raw as my FC. I won't go as out of control as I did on the suspension becuase, well, you don't have to in order to get the same level of handleing. No fixed back racing seats, although there will be a bar and harnesses (I LOVE them for the auto-x's, so nice NOT to be thrown all over the place) Custom paint, custom interior, custom wiring for both the engine and the chassis harnesses, as for powertrain, I'm undecided. Alex and I were talking last night and tossing around 20b ideas but that adds a ton of coin to the build as well as time and complications. I love the 13B-RE and I have an iron in my basment that can be tapped to use the stock REW mounts so the thing can just drop right in. Infact, all I need to drop an RE in is the UIM, LIM, and TB that I actually HAD, but sold about a year ago :banghead: but that's OK becuase I still would need one rotor and two housings so I might as well just buy a new-used engine anyway. Turbo's I was thinking twin GT28's, either internally gated or all v-bands for external WG's right on the snails, or maybe I'll just re-create the set-up I have now, although I doubt it, there's nothing new in it for me. I like the twin GT28 idea though. It has been done before, but not very well. Body mods will be simple and subtle, R1 lip, FEED side, some rear diffuser..... meh, I gotta get it first and spend a day and a bottle staring at it :rofl:

Yeah it is! I'm still hoping to get that 1st gen up here around x-mas as well. That would be awesome, all three gens under my knife at once.... DAYUM! I need more space :D

New pump arrived yesterday. Orders of business today and tomorrow are to install that, build an in-car camera mount and dyno and race this weekend. Should have, praying to have, the dyno sheets with CLEAN runs up and a few vids up as well by Sunday night. Should be the last great car weekend untill DGRRX.... that's a little depressing actually. Curse this snow!

What is this "snow" you speak of?

That slick white shit that puts my 400+hp rear wheel drive car into hibernation for 4-5 months out of the year.

Last Feb/March I actually had to TOW the 7 out of my driveway even though it had SNOW tires on her :banghead: We already had our first snow about a month ago, didn't amount to anything but it was flying

DAMN this vile powder substance!! Hibernation is about to start for me and sad thing is my FC has been a jack stand queen the last three weeks because of DP flange and v-band issues. Weather has been sweet the last couple days.

I can wait to see the FD Brian. Make it blue :)