woot woot!!

You best believe I use jackstands! Being the son of an old European (mainly italian) sports car mechanic means I was taught to do everything "right" off the bat. Once I get one side on jackstands then prop the other side on jack stands, I rejack the other side to make sure the jacks didn't lean/shift any while the other end of the car went up. I actually only use the jack as a sole prop if i'm just taking a wheel off (tire not even lifted half an inch off the ground) for < 5 min dealies, or, in my current case, to hold up the subframe on one end so i could line up the holes and have a free hand to slip the nuts on.

Gotcha, must've read it wrong.


Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo didn't get everything done that we wanted..... clogged yet another fuel filter. 4th gear pulls all day long, upping the boost a slight amount each time and making corrections to the map. THe last two runs went lean, 2nd to last not that bad, then the last one went to shit and FAST! Dave let out @ 6700 rpms at ~11.5lbs of boost and about 12.5-13 afr's. Everything was GREAT until about 5800 when she just started going lean. Pretty obvious by the datalog what happened. Engine still runs great, purrs like a kitten and pulls great vac. We'll double check the comp when I get back.

Also need to figure out why the boost is bleeding off at higher RPM's, I think I know but I need to check it out. I think the Charge Relief Valve puked or is set up wrong and bleeding off some boost.

I had the backup filter with me and within 15 minutes we had it changed out and we called it a night. What can you do right? I'm sending the old filter out to a lab to be analyzed to see what in the hell is clogging these things up. Maybe if we know, I'll be able to find it. Maybe I should sit outside for a few nights with my Benelli to see how much I pissed my neighbor off in the past.

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1255158313

Pretty obvious why she went lean

Wow! 361 WHp is a good number.

I have nothing but respect for you man and you are doing an excellent job.

I am really hoping that you can get the 400WHp, my hat will certainly be off to you if you do (although it already is).

I don't want you to be disappointed on your next dyno pull, so I will throw out some food for thought.

I doubt that you will ever run this close to peak power AFR on the dyno again, I would expect an 11:1 AFR run to give you more like 320 WHp if a 13.0:1 run gives you 360 WHp.

Unless I read the graph incorrectly, your boost was already falling off at this power level (meaning that your turbo is maxed out, or your charge relief valve is failing). I think that bump in the graph was due to the non-linearity of the waste gate completely closing. If you do have the wastegate completely shut on that run, you are going to need a much better flowing set of turbos to make 400 WHp at 11:1 AFR (unless you are running a ridiculously retarded ignition and can pick a lot of power up there).

Still, 361 WHp is not a bad number at all. (That is actually very impressive).

Out of curiosity, did you ever dyno this car NA to see what it would do?

I think we'll land right around 400. Thanks for the props, ya gotta give some to Dave to though. Guy found 50hp right off the bat without increasing boost. Guy is awesome.

We generally run her @11.7-12 afr or about .8-.815. 11.1 would start to drop the power off but I don't think we'll loose 9-10% power by dropping 1 full AFR.... I could be wrong though.... we'll see. Also, that last run Dave let out @ 6700 RPM's. Previously she kept climbing in power all the way to 72-7300 RPM's.

Boost was falling off and we even dropped the duty cycle more as the RPM's increased to try to keep the boost from falling off but it only worked so well. The root cause of the problem was the charge relief valve was left open..... yes left open. When I was breaking this engine in I went into the Motec and programed that solenoid to keep that valve open at all times to help stay out of boost for breakin. I just forgot to swap it back :banghead: I put it back the way it was supposed to be and she held boost all the way to redline at half the duty cycle on the WG. I'm hoping that she'll get to 15 psi without silly backpressure. INJ 7 is the CRV.... this is a 3rd gear pull in the neighborhood....... I don't know why my neighbors hate me :rofl:

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...1&d=1255228959

Well, we know the turbo's can move 18 psi on a bridgeported 13B-REW so my med streetported RE should be able to swallow 15ish. The Charge Relief Valve is a 3/4" hose attached to a stock blow-off valve so it can vent some air to say the least. Like I said, CRV closed she held more boost at about 1/2 the duty cycle on the WG. Can't tell for sure, but best guess is she'll make 15 psi. Tonight she spiked to 15 psi in 3rd at 60% duty (less duty = more boost) We'll know on the 22nd.... next trip to Dave.

Thank you and no, best I can give you is she made 131 wheel with the turbo's all fucked up and backspinning the 2ndary @ 0"hg. We really wanna see 400. I'm not saying 400 or bust but we should be able to see it or close to it. The timing isn't retardedly retarded but some CAN be gained with the timing...... we would rather NOT fuck with the timing or the AFR and we probably won't stray away from the conservative approach that Dave and I both like. We'd rather give up some ponies for some longevity and saftey. Meh, we'll see in about 10 days or so. I'm getting anxious though..... this has been going on for 6 months now. We're gonna get the girl all dialed in and I'm gonna break her down to a bareshell :rofl:

I don't know how you made any boost at all with the charge relief vale open

361 WHp is even more impressive considering that.

If you can make 15 psi, than 400 WHp should be pretty easy.

Not only do you get the fast spooling of the twins, you get good power too (perfect for autoXing).

You have no idea how much you are tempting me to throw a set of BNR twins on my engine instead of the GT37.

The reason that I was curious about the NA power is this:
361 WHp @ 6700 rpm = 283 W lb-ft of torque.
283 Wlb-ft * 14.8/(11.5+14.8) = 159 Wlb-ft of torque (which is identical to what my engine makes at 6700 rpm). This indicates to me that either your engine flows a lot better than mine (which is very possible, as you have the 3rd gen intake and I have a 2nd gen intake) or I can use very simple math to compute the power increase by adding a turbo (power ratio = intake pressure ratio).

The properties of torque at a given air fuel ratio are basically fixed for the fuel type, compression ratio, combustion chamber design and intake port timing (exhaust port timing does not matter for peak power AFR). Since you have identical characteristics in all except for port timing (which is not significantly different) and maybe the compression ratio (I think you have 9.0:1, where my 8.5:1 rotors are machined down to 8.2:1 - but it has a small effect anyway). I would expect our engines to perform similarly for torque vs AFR.

That is why I thought it was awesome that you were running 13.0:1 AFR (which is about where I found peak power NA) so I can compare. I made 10 lb-ft (6%) less torque at 12.3:1 as I did at 13.0:1. I made a LOT less torque at 11:1 (like 20% less). I intentionally dynoed my engine NA so that I could compare the power numbers with and without a turbo (The goal being to make 2X NA power (430 WHp) at 14.5 psi boost).

It almost seems like you are doing a little bit of the development for me (and you are giving me hope that it can be done).

Keep up the good work!!

edit: The above was meant for both Brian and Dave, as I have no intention of discounting or ignoring the critical part Dave is playing here, 361 WHp and drove it home because the tuner knew when to quit.

I think he is running S4 N/A rotors...not sure though, maybe even S5 N/A.

Man I wish I had a rotary tuner close to home. I have had to learn all tuning via forums and some automotive engineers/ professional tuners. It has worked out so far BUT there is a part of me that wounders if I am missing some "secret" insight that would yield better results. My last "shit" motor felt outstanding at 15 psi and I tuned it to about 11.5:1 keeping the top end within .1-.05 AFR of each cell range.

I am very curious to see what I will put down for power come dyno this spring especially in regards to torque since I have been studying timing correlation and mid-range torque.

The CRV is connected to the end of a 3/4" hose that takes two quick 908 turns and also vents through a filter so it's not like it's wide open but yeah, I'm pretty surprised she was able to do what she did all things considered.

As for the BNR's........... some have made more power with them and others report losing power. I spoke with one forum member recently about his BNR's running full NON-seq with all the valves cut out, holes welded shut and the mani and turbine housings ported...... he made 344 rwhp. Then again in talking with Bryan I believe he said that the highest reported sequential was 412. I would pick up a set of stockers first to see how your setup likes it then upgrade if necessary.

In all honesty though, my next project with be twin GT28's, externally gated hanging of a very similarly prepped 13B-RE in an FD chassis :D Maybe even GT30's who knows. Need to find a roller first damnit.

Where did all of those numbers come from?

I'm running the Cosmo intake, with everything portmatched and cleaned up. I made everything as effiecient as I possibly could specifically for the goal of 400 wheel.

Running 9.0:1 rotors and depending where we land, I MAY be swapping them out for some 9.7:1 rotors. I really want to compare my graphs to Chadwicks when we get the sequentials working. His low end torque was obscene.

I drove up to grab a sensor and was talking to my EMS guru a few days ago and showed him the dyno graph's the car etc etc etc..... told him we were shooting for .8L He was very surprised. I explained the reason and while he agreed with it, he kept pestering me to run her @ .85L just once to see how much she woke up. .85L = 12.5:1 AFR getting close to that dangerously lean part. Lets not forget I warped 2 Apex seals @ 13.5 AFR in one boost spiking pull. I'm alot more comfortable @ .8, but will probably use the overall trim to take a percent or two out and make one pull to see the gains from .8 to .82/.83..... MAYBE. I'd rather have a fat, dumb and happy engine than one that's running a little closer to the ragged edge and one hiccup pops it. We'll see though, she did wake right up though.

I love Dave to death, he's a very conservative guy which is nice to know, especially when you think about the things we're asking this little engines to do. When Bill came up and we had that sticking cornerseal, Dave asked what I wanted to do, dyno or no dyno.... you could see the tension leave his face when I said I didn't want to risk it.

Yeah Sean, running 9.0:1 rotors, basically S5/6 turbo compression. Thinking about 9.7:1 depending on where the torque curve falls.

I would say that 11.5 to one is a tad too rich. My EMS guy and I had a very interesting conversation about this on Tuesday.... he by the way does the setup and engine dyno's, or did rather, for Perez ;) Here's what he had to say about running too fat dumb and happy.... in a nut-shell, paraphrased, and I'd also like to add that this is ONE reason I think these engines spontaneously detonate.
Basically by running TOO rich you are leaving unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber, hanging on the rotor, seals, maybe even the housing surface itself. This is fuel, it's partially or completely vaporized and just waiting to be ignited. It's in the perfect environment as well. With the opening of port, incomes more oxygen, and all it needs is a little too much heat, or some exhaust gases to sneak by through the overlap or the trailing sparkplug hole and BAM - autoignition and bye bye.... game over. Is this likely to happen @ 11.5? Probably not unless your plugs are crap but how many people run around in the 9's and 10's? ALOT, how many people pop engines? What are the circumstances behind them? I'd love to study a TON of datalogs from blown engines and see if there is a pattern developing.

Of course he finished this off with..... I've never tuned a rotary to be street driven before though. My world with Rotaries starts @ C16 :rofl: The guy has an impressive resume though. Alot of big name guys both piston and rotary, drag, circuit and road race all go to him so I think we'll make one pull at .825 and then go right back to .8 :rofl:

I couldn't make it up there last week, others things came up, but I'll be able to make the 22nd. Maybe I could put my car on the dyno if there's enough time, I'm curious as to what its putting down.

I am so sorry, I never explained a thing.

You said that you are at sea level. Thus atmospheric pressure is 14.8 psi.

You said that you were running 11.5 psi of boost. This means that your intake manifold pressure was 14.8 (atmosphere) + 11.5 (boost) or 26.3 psia.

I was running about 14.5 psia at 6700 rpm (800 ft of altitude, no turbo).

A rule of thumb for diesel engines is that the torque boosted = the naturally aspirated torque X the boost ratio (absolute manifold pressure ratio). Diesel engines all run lean of stoic and the AFR is basically the same for turbo and NA.

Thus, if a diesel engine made 159 Wlb-ft at 800 ft elevation Naturally aspirated, it would make 159*(14.8+11.5)/14.5 or 288 lb-ft of torque at 11.5 psi boost and sea level.

I was thrilled to discover that your engine made 283 Wlb-ft of torque at 11.5 psi, as that is very close to that rule of thumb. (Obviously, the rule of thumb is seldom true for gasoline engines due to the excessively rich fuel mixes that must be run for a reliable turbo setup). I always theorized that if the AFR were the same on a boosted engine as it was on a NA engine, the ratio would work out (and it did).

Now unfortunately, You have a better compression ratio (which helps your power) and a better intake manifold, so there is a good chance that I will not see these improvements when I turbocharge my engine. But I really do intend to run at 13.0:1 AFR at 14.5 psi boost and I am relying on my intercooler, my low compression ratio and my ultra-polished combustion chambers to save me from detonation.

First I must experiment with the effects of compression ratio on a NA engine before I put the 8.2:1 rotors back in and install the turbo.

Hey man, that would be sweet.... but we changed the date, I'm heading there on Tuesday the 20th.

Gotcha, that all makes sense actually..... Dave is higher than sea level though. I don't know what his altitude is but I seem to remember MAP sensor reading something 97.5 kpa. I can look at the logs and tell you what the MAP reading was. That will give you the absolute pressure. Whatever the actual boost was plus whatever the atmosphere was.

I know it is rich but I have two reasons why I think it is safe for me: 1) All we have in MT is good old 91 octane....fun shit. 2) I understand your reasoning with the small amount of unburnted gas from overly-rich conditions and the extra added exhast gas from overlap BUT I would think that the small amount of unburnt gas even if ignited would not be suffiecient or have enough energy too actually cause lethal detonation. Plus, wouldn't the extra fuel actually cool the chamber(although not wise to use an flammable source to cool a piping hot metal chamber) I could be wrong BUT I also am very conservative with AFR's because that is what the "mob" recommends.

I hope random engine popping isn't casued from being conservative:leaving:

It's kind of a scary thought but entirely possible that too conservative can pop engines. If exhaust gas is sneaking by through the overlap, the intake port is now open adding more fuel to the fire so to speak. Add the backpressure created by a turbo and exhaust gas is now being forced into the combustion chamber. Personally, I don't think you'll have any problems at 11.5. But there is such a sweetspot where these engines like to run it's frightening. @ 13.5 you can warp Apex seals under high enough boost

What do you have for heat shielding in your engine bay?

I have read numerous 3rd gen owners that have spent large amounts of time working on heat dissipation with heat shielding, coolant passage mods, ceramic coating, fresh air ducting, ect..all to keep the MAIN enemy low as possible. I think you could run 13.0:1 AFR IF your temps are all very low and stable. It is the continued abuse and boosting at that specific AFR that improper heat prevention could be the killer.

There is a 3rd gen owner in the rx7club who has Einstein as his avatar(forgot name) but he has focused on heat prevention more then anything else and he is making 500 whp on pump gas constantly.

I have focused on this on my new motor all except the coolant passage way milling(most important..wish i would have). I will say my temps under the hood with my heat shielding, ceramic coating, exhst wrap and fresh air ducting and UIM and LIM coating have been impressive BUT until full boost my observations are just that...observations, nothing concrete or substantial til then.

^You wouldn't happen to be talking about Howard Coleman? He's a BIG advocate of Auxiliary Injection, and his research has gotten me interested in it as well.

^
No I don't think thats him. I believe he is Goodfella's father .

I TOO have been thinking AUX injection might be this winter's big project besides suspension.

I went ahead and ceramic coated everything on the engine, headwrapped the DP, BIG ASS rad and intercooler.

I dunno man, I think that's a little bit of a stretch. My engine runs 173ish*'s all day long and I warped 2 seals pretty damn quick. I would like to know what the egt difference is between 13 and 13.5

Do you know what he's running for a turbo? I've seen an A-Spec 500R kit do damn close to 500 with a little windshield washer fluid injection

I like Aux injection, with the exception of two points.
1) No-One can definately speak about the wear that the injection causes by washing the oil off the housings etc etc
2) I have yet to see one kit that is fail proof. I am not completely up to date with Howards setup, but I am with BDC's..... now... you're using this piggyback system to inject whatever, and if you look at the fuel maps, you're pulling fuel, and ALOT of it out as soon as the boost comes on hard. Now, if ANYTHING goes wrong with the aux injection, it seems to me that it would cost you and engine right then and there. I'd gladly rock an aux system if I could run it off the Motec and have a few failsafes.

Right now, nothing but a cold air intake (I am still NA)

In the future, I intend to have:
A cold air turbo intake.
An excellent intercooler.
Turbo heat shields.
Polished inside and outside of intake manifold (reflect radiant heat on outside, avoid turbulence that transfers heat to air on inside).
No coolant flowing through the intake manifold (I will tie the turbo in to the heater circuit).
Insulating manifold gaskets, lower temperature thermostat (cooler engine = cooler engine bay).
I might do the blanket on the turbo too, but that increases turbo temperature.

Keeping IAT low is critical in running lean, as detonation requires a certain activation energy. Even more awesome is that cool charge air actually makes the air more dense and makes more power at the same AFR and boost.

I am not sure about aux injection (I don't what it is), But I intend to drill the front and rear plate for injector bungs at the ports. I don't like how far the secondary injectors are from the ports (uneven fuel distribution from going around the turns).

Aux(iliary) injection is just having a second injection system, consisting of water, alcohol, or both, upstream in the intake system to cool the intake charge significantly. BDC, that TTT mentioned, is running two methanol "injectors" in his system (One right after the turbo and the other at the bend before the piping goes to the Throttle body)and it has been proven efficient enough (when in boost) to not even require an intercooler. I got to co-pilot in a few of his test sessions so I got to stare at the laptop with a strained neck, lol.

Brian's setup
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._5477410_n.jpg

I think the last thing you have to worry about is uneven fuel to your engine. Your front secondary injector supplies fuel to just your front rotor and the rear injector for your rear rotor ;)
Air distribution on the other hand...

I think he's more worried about the fuel sticking to one runner more than the other, or the air distribution that we know is uneven causing uneven fuel distribution.

BDC's setup uses nozzles which I think are a little less accurate than injectors. If I were to do a aux injector system I would have everything controled via the Motec so you're not having a piggyback system working against the main efi setup. Just my analness I guess but I'd be paranoid of one of the gain or boost settings getting a little messed up and popping an engine.

Aux injection does have it's place though and I like the benefits that it gives.

Man BDC's set-up looks crazy! :)

I feel you Brian on the minor difference probably between 13.0:1 and 13.5:1 EGTs. Wish we had some longer tuning timeline from old school owners on ALOT of rotary tuning mysteries. Damn V8 guys have so so much background information in regards to tip's n tricks and super secret power makers lol

Actually, the V8 tricks are more recipes than tricks (ask me, piston engines is where I cut my teeth). The general principles are identical for piston engines and rotary engines.

The availability of aftermarket parts for Chevy, Dodge and Ford V8s is what really makes them shine.

Still, 100 Hp/Liter is difficult for V8s too (my rotary achieved that with all stock components).

Rules of thumb are lacking in the rotary world, if I had been taking a 350 SBC to the dyno, I would have set the AFR to 13:0, the timing to 38 degrees BTDC above 3000 rpm (inertial advance below that) and taken it to see what it made. I might have tweaked the timing a couple of degrees and moved 0.2 AFR in either direction, but there would have very few power gains.

Interesting enough, my rotary made peak power at 13:1 AFR and 38 degrees BTDC timing (kinda strange, huh). If took a lot more adjustment and tuning to get there though, as I started with way too much timing (my ear told me it was better) and way too much fuel (12:1).

Well now I know what auxiliary injection is. We call it chemical cooling. Nowadays, typically NOS or methanol (even water) is sprayed on the intercooler. Some people actually inject the NOS into the intake air (wet kit, obviously) and mix insane quantities of fuel with it (which cools the charge air significantly). I see this relatively frequently on high-boost turbocharged or supercharged piston engines (although less these days with the availability of good intercoolers).

With diesels, they use wet propane kits to achieve additional charge density and more fuel. This comes at a cost though, as the engine now has fuel in the intake air, introducing the chance of detonation (or pre-ignition, actually).

Years back, people with too high of compression ratios would use water injection kits in the intake to cool the charge (they were a lot of trouble though, as the engine could rust if they were used to recently before shutdown).

edit:

I have to explain my problems with the secondary injectors:

What bothers me about them is that the air must go around a turn after the fuel has been injected into it. This causes the fuel to tend to fall out of the air as the fuel droplets are heavy and the air molecules are not nearly as much so. The inertia of the fuel drags it out of the air stream (which avoids the wall due to sonic reflections and other boundary layer effects) Thus, there is always a 'puddle' of fuel laying at the outside of the turn. This makes the fueling much less precise, especially during throttle transitions.

The ideal injection situation is where the fuel is injected into the air such that it is aimed at the inside of the turn, making the combined splash and boundary effects mix the air and fuel effectively. If the secondary injectors were mounted in the end plate so that the fan from them hit on the inside of the secondary port, I think the fuel mixing (uniformity of the fuel charge) would be better.

On piston engines, they cured these problems with rich-running carbs, heated intake manifolds and low compression ratios (pre-ignition not an issue). Now that they have port injection, they do not need heated intake manifolds, etc. as the fuel is spraying on the inside of the turn going into the intake valve.

I think i busted a nut.....

LOL, I just realized we went the same route with the fittings. Even though my car is red, something just irked me about having red and blue (contrasting colors) AN fittings in, and around, my bay and I got a shit-ton of black fittings. I've gone the braided nylon hose route though.

Lets see if Mazda lets me link directly to their jazz.

NoDOHC, how about beating Mazda to the punch with their injector setup on the 16x instead?
http://www.mazdarxsource.com/mazda-1...a-16x-side.jpg

+1! I greatly dislike the red/blue combo as well. When I start building my car, it will be all black fittings.

How is it working out? I thought about using that too (for it's sleeper-ness), but I don't have any info on how it would hold up compared to SS braided lines to pressure and temperature.

Its rated for up to 350psi and 300 degrees. I've seen an MR-2 in person that seemed to have no problems running all nylon lines. It's not a rotary but I'd be worried about other things if any of my hoses had to deal with 300 degree fluids, LOL.

I took a pic of it, lemme find it....
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._3378915_n.jpg

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._4060562_n.jpg

Hmmm guess I should have used flash, lol. Sorry you can maybe see but TWO of the lines in that pic.

:rofl: Thanks

:icon_tup: I HATE those fricken red and blue ones. I have one left on the intake mani for the vac line to the brake booster and I painted that one. They drive me insane. I am so far liking the black nylon braided ones. More flexible, easier to assemble, and cheaper too I believe.

Ahhhh, direct injection. That's the first thing I thought of when he mentioned his new placement for the injectors. but then the rechroming machining etc etc involved would really suck so I guess the next best thing would be the plates. I think it'll be difficult but doable non-the-less. Then again anything is with enough $$$$ tossed at it. Like a 40B for example :rolleyes:

I love em. Using them for fuel, coolant, and oil. No complaints whatsoever thus far. The fittings themselves though, I bought the Jegs ones, and have had to replace one already, and one is starting to piss me off.... the one on top of the fuel filter too so it's always getting undone. The retaining wire gets hung-up making it very difficult to thread it on by hand.

That is sexy. I agree, if you're looking at 300* temps, there are other things to be worried about. Under the hood shouldn't get that hot either.

I got majority Earl's fittings. I have two summit AN to NPT adapters and a Summit -8 plug (which I replaced with an Earl's -8 plug because Summit fails to mention that their plug has a threaded hole in the middle of it... thus NOT making it a "PLUG" unless you put yet another plug in it! :icon_no2:)

pfffffffffffftttt!!!! HAAHAHAHAA :rofl: haahahahaaa :lol: haahahaahahhahhaa:lol2:

Leave it to Summit. If I had to do it over again I would have gone with Earls or Aeromotive or some other name brand. My logic was I know Jegs isn't casting them, they're buying them from somebody and slapping thier name on them. I don't know who though. FWIW, the summit brand of fittings is the same as the Jegs. I just wish I knew who was casting them

The 20th works out better for me anyway. What time do you think you'll be getting there?

I'm hoping by 10/ Honestly though there's a ton of cleanup in the map that needs to be done up high in the boost. We need to do this because the last fuel filter was clogging as we were tuning, so we were dumping fuel in because we were lacking flow. Now everythings pigassstink rich. By mid afternoon though we should be shooting for the big numbers and playing with the sequentials.

Any word on the analysis of the crap clogging your fuel system?

Nothing back from the lab yet............ that might be becuase I didn't send it out yet though :rofl: Only now I have 2 filters to send out.

Antman showed again today and got to see the big numbers :D

402.77RWHP @ 13.75lbs of boost running .85L. In Daves words, we didn't tune for it, but she gave it to us

Got her strapped down and we rocked through the cleanup then on one pull she went a skoche lean on the top. Nothing alarming, but enough to raise an eyebrow. So we decided to smoke a cig and let her cool for 10 minutes and then go for the big un. On our break I mentioned that we should check the FPSI again as that last run kinda concerned me. Dave agreed and when we checked the logs, the PSI dropped off again towards the top - MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!!!!!! I've got the FPSI displayed onthe dash and after each and every run Dave would take a peek and they would ALWAYS go right back to 36psi, right where they should be, just isn't flowing enough up high though.

So we wheeled her forward, up on the lift and 10 minutes later the new filter was in, I never leave home without one now, how eff'ed up is that. Blowing through this was was laborius but not like the last one. The last one also was allowing 38psi through and the one today let 45psi though. So with the new filter in we strapped her back down, made a pull, cleaned a few things up, made another pull and on the 2nd pull with the NEW FILTER IN the psi dropped off again to 49psi when it should be at 55psi. So, I'm going to pull the pump, send that out, replace the sock, get the filters tested, and sleep in my garage with a loaded 12ga semi-auto Benelli and my German Shepard. Dave is convinced someone is pouring shit in my tank.

So it was bittersweet.... there were no congrats, no hi-fives, no bottle of Single Barrell Jack to be passed around just pissed off even though we broke 400hp on a set of stock REW twins, with another pound to add. I think that's a record though. I know there was a guy in jersey with a white FD, running a 1/2 bridge or full bridge making 402 but pushing 18 psi. The turbo's lasted 300 miles IIRC. We're happy, but not at the end just yet.... DAMNIT. And we REALLY want to play with the twins. We're using duty cycle control, like 50% across the board but the solenoid doesn't activate until 120kpa, so every time we up the boost, we're upping it across the board. On the drive home tonight I broke the tires loose in 2nd around 5500rpm with 3/4 throttle. The girl is PEPPY!

On the plus side I finally got a fast reacting AIT sensor from Motec installed. I wanted to get the one from dudemann but without knowing the calibration table, it was unknown if it would work. Regardless... when boost hits the AIT on the charge pipe pre-intercooler go from 108*F to 245*F and the AIT going into the engine go from 77.2*F to 80.6* :D That was on the 403RWHP run.... SICK!

Congratulations!

You made the 400 WHp without ever getting to your max of 15 psi.

Maybe that will encourage more people to tune a little closer to the edge.

I am sorry about your dirty fuel issues, maybe you should pull the tank and replace it with a fuel cell or something. (A good cleaning may be the ticket).

Maybe you could disconnect the Fuel fill tube and cap the tank when it is in the garage, so that anything that the neighbor puts in the fill will fall on the ground and not in the tank.

Where did you find such a good intercooler? I don't know what your ambient temperature was, but 245 F to 80.6 F? That is amazing. You are still running the V mount? Maybe standard front mount intercoolers heat soak from the radiator or something, because I have never seen an intercooler that effective (except for maybe on a 20 F day, which I doubt if the no-boost-temperature was in the 100s).

Thanks.

Honestly though..... we weren't looking for .85L We were tuning for a little richer, not much but a little. There is a HUGE jump in power on my car from .75 - .8L, much smoother torque curve, virtually no misfires, my engine seems to LOVE good clean AFR's. 12 seems to be the magic number but I'm hesitant to go there until I get this fuel issue solved. I like the safety margin even if it costs me 50hp+. Last time we started with the car running ~.75 and lower. Cleaned her up to .8 and gained 50-60 hp. I think I'm going to put some LS2 Truck coils in over the winter. THey have something like 250% of the millijoules that the LS1 coils have.

It's not the tank. The tank that's in there is the cleanest S4/5 tank that I have ever seen, and I've cleaned it by hand myself on two seperate occasions and both times, nothing has come out on a clean papertowel. I don't think it's station related either because I've been tanking up at all different stations, although all of them have been Mobils or Exxons. Disconnecting the fuel fill is a PITA too, I know, I've removed it for cleaning in the past. If anything I'll get a locking filler and I'm going to look into some security camera's because it's getting a little too cold to sleep in the shop :rofl:

Still running the V-mount, although it's really more of an H-mount I guess. I think the ductin is the key though. I suck up bugs that get trapped in the seem between the core and the frameing/ducting. Ambient temps were around 60-65* The intercooler is a brand that I will NOT specify publically. While it's a good intercooler, I fricken HATE the company that built it. They screwed me so badly, I refuse to do anymore business with them or give them any free advertising. I will say that Griffin and this other co claim the same effeicency with thier cores. I went with the other co for time and cost. They said they could deliver the custom intercooler in a few days, but when it arrived (and I had it 2-day aired for something ridiculous like $85) the end tanks were wrong. So when I called them to tell them they made a mistake, they wouldn't own up to it. It was a battle to get them to take it back and build me the proper one. Then I had to pay for shipping to get it out to them, and pay for shipping to get the correct one sent back to me. So in total I paid close to $200 for shipping for a $450 intercooler and had to wait a few weeks.

When my Griffin rad showed up, it had the wrong size outlet, 1 & 3/4" as opposed to 1 & 1/2. When I called them, they were all set to take it back, pay for the shipping and expedite a new one to me. They were so helpful on a rad that they would have a VERY hard time reselling (where as the intercooler was basically a generic front mount setup) that I decided to see if I could stretch a hose over the outlet. I could and kept the rad to sort of help them out. Honestly, since I can't completely remove the name from the intercooler (which I specifically asked them NOT to spraypaint on) the last thing that I'll probable do is replace the intercooler that I have with one grom Griffin, or just buy a Garret or Spearco core and fab my own tanks. But if you're looking for a good intercooler, I'd go strait to Griffin.

The AIT's are ridiculous though. One log showed a 120* jump in charge temps with a 1.7* jump in AIT's... lower boost level. The other interesting thing about the charge temps..... apparently we're close but not to the end of the turbo's effeicency. I was told that 300* is about where you want to stop.

AWESOME buddy! I really wish you could find this fuel issue! Man it is like a "dick tease".

You need to post some vids in the car and someone on the road with you flying by.

Almost there bro. Great job!!

That's good to know because they are on my "parts list" for my rad and IC when I finally get around to my V/H-mount setup when I upgrade to a bigger turbo.

Wow, 400 eh? Congrats on another awesome achievement. I can't believe your fuel contamination issue is still ongoing. If it isn't some obscure rubber seal breaking down or your neighbor I'd say electrolysis in the fuel system maybe? I'd wonder if the ethanol in the fuel is allowing the fuel to become conductive and eating the insides of your fuel rails or something.

Got a graph for that number? I wanna see how low they come on.

Btw, the Tuesday night meet is dying down due to the cold so maybe we could find a weekend meet that works for both of us. If not there is always DGRR '10, which I'll definitely be attending.

I think I may have found the issue tonight.......... here's what I did

Pulled the pump and hooked up a wire to both the ground on the hanger and the hot on the lid. Checked Bat voltage - 12.12V. Turned the pump on and probed those two wires so I could get a reading of what the pump was seeing with it in fuel and running - 11.12V. Not bad but still something not 100%. I've got a 10GA wire going from the bat to a 20A breaker like 6" away, and then the same 10GA running to the relay on the shock tower, and then 10GA running to the connector which I replaced with a weatherpack. So there is stock wiring from the connector to the pump. Not much but it's still some.

Next I hooked up an Ammeter and ran the pump. 12.51A. This is not good. It should be around 8-9A. This is interesting. I jumped the ground directly to the battery and got the exact same A reading. OK, so it ain't my wiring although there is a loss somewhere, most likely just the resistance of the connectors, breakers, relays ect ect.

The sock looks a little meh so I pulled the sock to eliminate that as a source of vac and got a reading of 12.46A. OK, so a questionable sock only adds a slight amount of resistance. This is interesting. Questionable meaning you pull the think out of the tank and fuel is still being held in said sock.

OK, well, maybe that filter really is clogged. But what if it isn't? That's a TON of A's for a pump to suck down. Alright, we need to know without a doubt that this filter is fucking me. So what do I do you ask - go on, ask. Alright alright, I'll tell you. I have a spare 250psi sender that I use for my comp tests. I dug through my binS worth of fittings and found a -6 male to -6 male with an 1/8"npt port, an 1/8" to -4 fitting. A -4 female to -4 female hose, a -4 to 1/8"FNPT and put my sender on the end of that. Then I got a coupler and spliced this hodge podge contraption between the hardline and the filter BEFORE the filter. The sender happens to be the same as my Oil Pressure sender ('cuz I get like 125 psi >3500) and turned the pump on. Read 43.2psi at the regulator. A little high. Even more interesting is that it read 42.6 - yes Forty-two and 6/10 psi BEFORE the filter. Interesting. There is a negative pressure drop across the filter. This could be because of a few things. The Fuel PSI sender is a 0-100 psi unit so the resolution on the 250 psi unit isn't nearly as accurate becuase they are using the same 5v. There is also some sender accuracy. I don't know what the autometer (Delco) stuff is but it's OEM so it should be pretty damn accurate. So....... interestingly enough it appears that the filters are only partly to blame. I think the Cosmo pump that I've been using just isn't up to snuff for the pressures that I'm asking of it. I'm going to borrow my buddies Walbro tomorrow and toss it in and do the same tests. I know that the Walbro 392 HP draws just ~8A at ~57G/hr @ 12v. At the highest pressure I'm asking for it draws ~<9A and flows about 52G/hr @ 12V. At 13.5V it should flow ~62 Gal/hr. Assuming 100% duty cycle I need 55G/h. So the Walbro 392hp will actually definately work for me.

The Cosmo pump has been tested to put out 66 G/hr @ 43psi HOWEVER, it was never really designed to put out the kinds of pressures that I'm asking for. I wonder if the pump isn't just falling FLAT on it's face on the higher levels of PSI. Also, this is with a filter with 150 miles on it. I know for a FACT that I have had outright clogged filters and socks from the epoxy coated tank. I wonder if all the shit that went through there didn't fuck up the pump itself. Also, lets not forget that the pressure that I was getting before the filter was never recorded until now. It's possible that the line pressure got into the 80's. The pump way overworked got hot and FUBAR'ed itself. All sorts of shit could've happened but the Cosmo pump that I have, just isn't up to snuff right now. That's also evident by changing the filter yesterday, making one pull and on the second it just went to shit. We spent probably 3 hours on the dyno making pull after pull after pull. It's entirely possible that the pump "heatsoaked" if you will.

I'm rambling, I'm gonna finish my drink and take a shower.

Fucking cars...........................................

Yesh, yeah we do. Hopefully I'll have a little time to build a mount for an in car camera. That would be awesome. But I definately need to get a couple fly bys. A good buddy of mine has a slightly tweaked MS6. We were pulling onto the highway and he heard me bust loose some tires so he punched it. We got up to about 120. His sister was in my car and we were following. I laughed and said, you see all that black smoke coming from your brothers car? He's got his foot through the floor and I'm @ 1/4 throttle :rofl: The car pulls like a frieght train. Need som vids of fun shit for sure