Ignition Thoughts/Ideas/Recommendations

[NoDOHC]

So now that I am nearly certain that I have squeezed every single possible horsepower out of my engine with the stock ignition. I am looking for ignition options.

I have a limited budget for this (I do not want to exceed $200.00 for new ignition).

I have heard mention of LS1 coils, Some have mentioned that MSD coils work pretty well, but I don't know if I could use one for the rotary.

Explanation:
Because the leading plugs are wasted spark, the leading plug coil must fire 2 times per engine revolution. Because the coil requires approximately 0.5 ms to fire and at least 3.5 ms to charge (or the spark is very weak), The leading plugs can not reliably fire above 250 Hz 1/4ms = 250 Hz.

{** IGNORE THIS PARAGRAPH IF YOU ARE NOT AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER**}
The current through the leading coil peaks around 4.8 ms, indicating saturation. Because the current through the inductive coil increases at a nearly linear rate, the coil energy (0.5LI^2) can be computed based on charge time. If maximum charge occurs at 4.8ms, the current at 3.5 ms will be 3.5/4.8 times the peak current or 0.729 times the peak current, 0.729^2 gives 0.532. Thus at 3.5ms charge time the coil contains 0.532 times as much energy as at 4.8ms charge time.

Unfortunately, 250 Hz equates to 7500 RPM. (7500 ignition events/rotor/minute = 15000 ignition events per minute = 250 ignition events per second). This means that the leading coil is not charging adequately to light the fuel mixture. The trailing coil is similar as the charge signal must travel a common line for both rotors, even though neither coil is close to saturation.

Now I can give some actual hard data for mechanical guys who don't care about EE formulas.

I have attached a graph of normalized torque output for my engine.
Normalized Torque = Wheel Torque/VE of the engine as a decimal (IE: 1.1).
Most engines will have a very constant normalized torque as it is basically a measure of chemical efficiency (which depends on combustion chamber dynamics, engine displacement, compression ratio, Air/fuel ratio, etc.), all of which are fixed for an engine (if the AFR is tuned consistantly).

A good number for a piston engine that I have heard is 1.0+((CR-8.0)/30) lb-ft/cid at 100% VE (1.0).

The chart is included as a .jpg. These numbers are listed for anyone who wishes to check my work.

Engine Speed (RPM),Fuel,AFR,VE,Torque,Normalized Torque
5000, 4.85, 13.3, 103.05, 145, 140.7
5500, 5.02, 13.3, 106.67, 151, 141.56
6000, 5.21, 13.2, 109.87, 155, 141.07
6500, 5.4, 13.1, 113.02, 160, 141.57
7000, 5.5, 12.8, 112.47, 154, 136.92
7500, 5.3, 13.3, 112.62, 148, 131.42
8000, 5.1, 13.4, 109.18, 139, 127.31

From this trend, it is clear that the engine makes very consistant torque/VE below 7,000 rpm, but this number starts to decrease abruptly as the speed exceeds 7,000 rpm. (Interesting that this is a very similar speed to that computed above, isn't it?)

Interresting Side Note:
Using the formula above, the 100% VE torque of this engine should be:
1.0*((8.2(Compression ratio)-8.0)/30)*160 (effective displacement in cubic inches)= 1.007*160 = 161 lb-ft at 100% VE (1.0).

If you use an 20% drivetrain loss calculation (standard for Mustang Dyno and IRS car) you get a flywheel torque number of 176 lb-ft at 100% VE
Thus this rotary engine makes 10% more torque than an equivalently sized piston engine (with the same compression ratio) would make.

{** IGNORE THESE 3 PARAGRAPHS IF YOU ARE NOT A DATA ACCURACY FANATIC **}
The injection time is actually shorter than the injector energization time that is used for these calculations. Therefore the engine volumetric efficiency is probably not as good as the table above would indicate. However as the injection times listed are all within 10% of the mean injection time, the introduced error from an energization time offset in these values would not be appreciable.

The torque/VE claim would actually be higher if actual injection time were used as this would decrease the implied VE without modifying the measured torque.

The drivetrain efficiency would have to be 90% (which few people would accept as valid) before the torque numbers would fall into the piston engine domain.


Oh yeah, I need to compute what this engine should make for power if it didn't have ignition issues. No, actually I will need the VE curve for 8,000-9,000 rpm to do that (which I do not have). At 8,000 it is pretty simple 141 Wlb-ft/VE * 109% VE * 8000 rpm / 5252 gives 234 WHp (Probably a little higher at a higher rpm).

What should I use for ignition?

[C. Ludwig]

Your ECU is not capable of direct fire ignition which is really what you're asking for. BDC did a write up on the evil forum on how to use another trailing coil and toggle in place of the leading coil to enable direct fire with the E6K/X. This replaces the wastespark set and effectively halves the duty cycle of the wastespark setup allowing full saturation of the coil.

LS1 and LS2 coils want approximately 5.5-6.0 mS of charge time for full saturation. Just switching to those and still running wastespark won't benefit you much. You could use those combined with the toggle as above though if you wanted to get industrious. The LS2 coil is fairly hot. The LS1 not as much. Both are available on Ebay for cheap.

A 6A or similar on the leading coil only would also solve the problem and fit your budget though I am not a fan of CDIs until they become absolutely necessary are you're no where near that point.

Think your VE problem is still going to be a mechanical limit though. Prove me wrong. :) Great job so far!

[NoDOHC]

The toggle doesn't help me at all, as it still uses a common line to send out the ignition signal. This means my coils still get a drastically too-short charge time, even while being nowhere near to being saturated.

At 9,000 rpm, I get a maximum charge time of 2.8 ms (3.3 ms - 0.5ms discharge time). This will barely fire the engine.

Example of ignition signal:

3000 rpm
------------Leading -------------------Trailing--
___________|---------|___________|---------|

6000 rpm
--Leading ----Trailing--
_|---------|_|---------|

9000 rpm
-Leading-Trailing--Leading-Trailing
_|-----|_|-----|_|-----|_|-----|

Both the leading and trailing coil take a similar output from the ECU (just differing in the split angle), Thus the toggle signal is meaningless for the signal.

What I need is a "Smart" ignition system (that controls dwell independant of signal charge time). I can easily build a circuit that divides a signal to multiple ignitors based on the toggle output.

[TitaniumTT]

Paul Yaw has a set of Bosch coils that he has dyno proven will make more torque at equivalent charge times. I plan on upgrading to these over the winter. Aside from that little tidbit of information, I really have nothing else to input on the coils themselves. I plan on contacting him in the near future.

LS1 coils are quite robust. I have had only one problem firing a wet plug (which I pulled, blew out, re-installed and have run for >1100 miles now) BUT they do like alot of dwell time and running them in wasted for the leading is just not going to happen. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be out of coil when I up the rev limit to 8k

Renni coils are something else to consider as they are designed to fire a 9k rpm rotary........... although you have that wasted spark to deal with.......... although you said you could build some sort of electronic trickery to toggle the signal.......

FWIW I was speaking with Motec about the shortfalls of the LS1 coils. We discussed three possibilities.

Yukon LS2 coils - good
Renni coils - Good - he rec'd them to me a while back but I went LS1 for ease of procurement and when I suggested them again is when he mentioned Paul doing a back to back dyno of renni coils vs the Bosch ones and the Bosch made more torque.

So it's either Yukon LS2 or Bosch over the winter for me.

[NoDOHC]

I want to go LS2 really bad, but my ECU doesn't support them.

[C. Ludwig]

I hadn't thought about the "direct fire mode" not really being direct fire with the 3 channel systems like the E6X/K. You are correct though.

The best inductive coils your going to find are going to be the Bosch Motorsports coils or the Mercury IGN-1 and IGN1-A coils. The Mercury A coils have a built-in ignitor for direct connection to your ECU. The Bosch and IGN-1 coils will need an external ignitor.

The LS2 coils will certainly work with the E6X. Why would you think they're not supported. However, with any of the inductive solutions as I stated in my first post, you'll be near the limits of saturation since you'll still be driving the leading in wastespark. I know the Mercury coils require a lower charge time than the LS1 or LS2 coils. You should see good saturation at around 3.5-4.0ms. Not sure what the Bosch coils need. Any of these solutions though is going to topple the budget you stated in your first post. Again, the MSD 6 or comparable on the leading is about the only thing that will be an upgrade and fit your budget.

[NoDOHC]

I'm sorry, I meant that the e6X is not capable of individual coil-per-plug on a rotary. Wasted spark with an LS2 coil is identical to what I have now.

I have another option that I am researching.

I will summarize it at the risk of flaming.

I think I will keep the stock coils and run them at 24V DC. This will effectively cut charge time in half, allowing a good hot spark at 9,000 rpm and costing me nothing.

(I can easily reconfigure the E6X to give a 2.4 ms charge time instead of a 4.8 ms charge time.)

[TitaniumTT]

I hadn't thought about the "direct fire mode" not really being direct fire with the 3 channel systems like the E6X/K. You are correct though.

The best inductive coils your going to find are going to be the Bosch Motorsports coils or the Mercury IGN-1 and IGN1-A coils. The Mercury A coils have a built-in ignitor for direct connection to your ECU. The Bosch and IGN-1 coils will need an external ignitor.

The LS2 coils will certainly work with the E6X. Why would you think they're not supported. However, with any of the inductive solutions as I stated in my first post, you'll be near the limits of saturation since you'll still be driving the leading in wastespark. I know the Mercury coils require a lower charge time than the LS1 or LS2 coils. You should see good saturation at around 3.5-4.0ms. Not sure what the Bosch coils need. Any of these solutions though is going to topple the budget you stated in your first post. Again, the MSD 6 or comparable on the leading is about the only thing that will be an upgrade and fit your budget.

I believe there are Bosch coils with built-in ignitors available. In speaking with Motec who turned me on to them, I mentioned this as a consideration.

Mercury Coils are going to need by design a very low dwell time. They are in fact designed for actual 2-stroke engines. However, I would be a little leary of their spark energy. I don't know of any 2-stroke O/B's making all that much HP. There are 300+ ones running around all day @ 9k and up using stock.... in this case Merc.... coils.

The 24V idea is interesting......... how would you do that? Wire it up.

[NoDOHC]

Short term, I would cut some connectors out of a harness on an old car that is destined for the junk yard, connect 24V to them (using an extra battery in series without any alternator or anything feeding it).

If this fixes my high end bogging, I will purchase a 12V to 24V DC-DC converter and feed my coils with that. (This should get me by until I decide to install the GT37). Once I install a turbo, I will need better ignition, as the open circuit voltage of stock coils is limited to ~30,000 volts (from what I recall). I think LS1 is ~45,000 and LS2 is near 50,000 volts.

[C. Ludwig]

The Mercury inductive coils have an output of somewhere between 120-150mJ depending on who's literature you look at. They're what Electromotive use for their DIS systems and they claim 150mJ. That's the hottest inductive coil I'm aware of. I've used the TTL version with great success on a couple rotarys. Love these coils! A 3.5ms charge time will get you 90+% saturation. Should have more than enough energy even at partial saturation to ignite an NA mixture. The LS-2 coil is supposed to be around 120mJ but requires around 6ms of charge time to get there.

Bosch Motorsports does show several inductive coils with built-in ignitors. The highest output rating is 100mJ and it's a COP coil. Would be interesting to try.

[NoDOHC]

If I could get a set of Mercury IGN1-As for a decent price, maybe it would be worth going E8 (that will have to wait until next years budget).

I won't have a full 6ms for an LS2 coil (I intend to rev to 10,000 on my next iteration, if I can light the charge).

Does anyone know what the saturation energy of the stock coils is? If not, I will get an oscilloscope and find out. I would like to be sure that I am significantly upgrading ignition, as the stock coils seem to ignite very well at lower revs and I can run them at higher voltage to get over the rev issue.

[RXTASY]

Just bought 4 of these to run with my P1000 and E85.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign1a-race-coil-p-394.html

[RICE RACING]

I have run my own experiments comparing inductive to boosted inductive then to CDI based, as per a good Mazda test I found more power, lower EGT, leaner AFR (all indicating better more complete burn), on CDI than any version of inductive all other variables held constant. There is also a nice increase in RPM, again most cant test this on road/track.

Most who trash CDI or dismiss it have never run proper tests to back their views.

The best set up is COP, and CDI on all plugs, and wasted spark on leading :001_005:

[RICE RACING]

The toggle doesn't help me at all, as it still uses a common line to send out the ignition signal. This means my coils still get a drastically too-short charge time, even while being nowhere near to being saturated.

At 9,000 rpm, I get a maximum charge time of 2.8 ms (3.3 ms - 0.5ms discharge time). This will barely fire the engine.

Example of ignition signal:

3000 rpm
------------Leading -------------------Trailing--
___________|---------|___________|---------|

6000 rpm
--Leading ----Trailing--
_|---------|_|---------|

9000 rpm
-Leading-Trailing--Leading-Trailing
_|-----|_|-----|_|-----|_|-----|

Both the leading and trailing coil take a similar output from the ECU (just differing in the split angle), Thus the toggle signal is meaningless for the signal.

What I need is a "Smart" ignition system (that controls dwell independant of signal charge time). I can easily build a circuit that divides a signal to multiple ignitors based on the toggle output.

Forget inductive.

What you NEED is complete CDI system. Always running very high chamber pressure, with lots of fuel and water injected I have trialed every CDI offering on the market (or so it seems) also all the "hottest" inductive types, and many things in between from boosted primary to "Don Mega" coils snake oil and various guru's claims.

In the end CDI on a Wankel Engine wins hands down. You only need to follow Mazda to see this :) but some of us need to find out our selves too :leaving:

If you want to know my recommendation feel free to PM me and I will gladly pass it on.

[TitaniumTT]

Just bought 4 of these to run with my P1000 and E85.
http://http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign1a-race-coil-p-394.html


Linky no worky...


I have run my own experiments comparing inductive to boosted inductive then to CDI based, as per a good Mazda test I found more power, lower EGT, leaner AFR (all indicating better more complete burn), on CDI than any version of inductive all other variables held constant. There is also a nice increase in RPM, again most cant test this on road/track.

Most who trash CDI or dismiss it have never run proper tests to back their views.

The best set up is COP, and CDI on all plugs, and wasted spark on leading :001_005:

I did ;) I did a back to back test of an M&W CDI system vs my inductive bosch coils. The CDI picked up 3hp but the idle blew donkeys... For the price savings of close to $1500, I'll stick with my inductive setup at this point. In the future when I start looking for north of 500 honest bhp with either an E85 or a water injected setup, then I think the CDI will hold merit. But at 400whp and below, especially n/a as NoDOHC is, the CDI just isn't worth the bread.... that's just my opinion.

I will say, and I do need to call C. Ludwig to tell him what happened with the QuickSilver coils that he rec'd, those are some stout fucking coils. Blow alot of things out of the water, LS1 included. The QuickSilvers added 4whp to my car when she was running pig ass nasty rich and getting ignition breakup AND they cleaned it up, lower egt's more hp, L was about the same but the breakup was gone. The ONLY drawback to the QuickSilver coils is their size but damn do they light it off. Thanks again to MC

Forget inductive.

What you NEED is complete CDI system. Always running very high chamber pressure, with lots of fuel and water injected I have trialed every CDI offering on the market (or so it seems) also all the "hottest" inductive types, and many things in between from boosted primary to "Don Mega" coils snake oil and various guru's claims.

In the end CDI on a Wankel Engine wins hands down. You only need to follow Mazda to see this :) but some of us need to find out our selves too :leaving:

If you want to know my recommendation feel free to PM me and I will gladly pass it on.

Where he is, he doesn't NEED a CDI.... I would like to see what a CDI would pickup on an N/A car.... I would be surprised if it was more than 2rwhp. Don't forget Peter... not all of us are running the serious chamber pressures that you are... and water... last I checked water doesn't ignite very well... perhaps you should give bdc and hc a call and get a lesson in meth... after all... meth is a fuel :smilielol5:

[RICE RACING]

Mazda factory did a test many many years ago on CDI v's inductive on NA at ~300bhp level, very good test showing even kV increased on inductive to match CDI and it could not match the power, it was less 12bhp from memory, I'll try to scan the report and the graphs and tests.

Mazda only recommend and have used CDI on all factory race NA's cars since about 1978, there is good reason for this.

For CDI to work as good as inductive at idle rpm it needs multi strike of the right frequency and number (also right amount of current and voltage, not all systems are the same in this regard if you measure them). FYI Even modern OEM inductive systems are multi striking at rpm's below 1500rpm, we have one in our workshop which I train my students on :117:

CDI done badly will give you a bad experience, CDI done properly and you will never ever use inductive again, especially on a rotary engine :biggthumpup:

[TitaniumTT]

Tried the multi-strike, mucked around with it, as did a MoTeC engineer and a few other people, the CDI just wouldn't idle the car nicely.... It idled, but it floated around alot and just sucked. When I swapped back to the Bosch inductive, I forgot to put the dwell table back in. Set for 0ms across the board for the CDI. THe car started and idled perfected and reved to almost 3k before it started stuttering....

I admit, I'm really surprised that the CDI gained that much over the inductive even in n/a form. If this test was done way back when I was starting my drinking carrer at the ripe old age of 6 mo's with a shot of vodka back in the late 70's.... I'm sure inductive coils have come a long way and may have closed the gap. In a 400hp turbo rotary... at least the M&W cdi system just didn't make up that much grn. Paying $500/hp for that last little .75% hp increase doesn't really seem worth it.... now a 12-15hp increase and better L's, lower EGT's... yeah, I can see that, but I haven't seen it... if that makes sense :rofl:

[RICE RACING]

Just did a car this morning, swapped out Inductive for full CDI system, and better idle.......... so go figure :leaving:

I think the point is with all of this (and I have seen it before across many times repeated tests) you cant take a one off "bad experience" as a case for all, as I said not all are equal.

I do know that I personally have never seen a CDI make the same power as an inductive, its always been a big + increase to the CDI system :coolgleamA: FWI to the original poster.

TTT I too had a bad experience with CDI's a few times over the years, but then I learned myself about electrics and bought my own equipment to test it, and sorted the shit from clay :9898: when you do that and quantify the spark current, and secondary voltage, burn time, and number of restrikes, you can see that there is no substitute for ignition power :auto: I don't go off brand names or people titles or who they work for, I just look at the raw honest testing data, take a look at it, understand what is going on and you will see the merits of CDI on all applications.

I'll take some pics of the Mazda test and post them for you mate.

[TitaniumTT]

Thanks Peter, I'd love to see it!

Yeah, can't take one bad experience and spread it across all of them, but I do know of a few others who have had the same type of results that I have had, so I just wrote it off to, that's what it is.

I agree, with big torque comes big cylinder pressures and the need for big spark current, enter the CDI. I dunno, I just can't see it making that big of a difference in the 400whp range. I would pay for a 15whp increase, lower EGT's etc.... I really would, but I haven't found a system that will do it.

What are you running pal?

Cheers

-Brian

[RICE RACING]

Will get on it tonight hopefully, if not by weekend.

I currently run Dynatek CDI's, Dynatek CDI 0.5 ohm coils, RR designed Coil on plug system. I'll dig out the Current and electrical info on a typical idle setting. Its pulls as much current as some top magneto stuff :) second restrike is right up there in "power too".

When I compare this CDI system to inductive in off boost settings the engine is just much more crisp and alive, it will fire leaner air fuel ratio's (and richer too) it wont foul very cold plugs and the EGT is lower, and power is higher. Cost of my bespoke system is prohibitive for most people off the street.

The MSD Dis2HO (high output version) with MSD small coils, and leads is a very high powered system, not as powerful as the Dynatek's 200+mj constant rating but its up there. Some of the old systems I used based on the Crane Hi-6 were quite good and idled very well (see my web site of a street port and bridge running these systems under the water injection page). 2 x Hi-6's on both leading plugs and LX-92 CDI coils.

[TitaniumTT]

Cool shit man.... I'll have to look into that system that you're running.

Sooooo is Rice Racing hiring?
What are the gun laws in AU?
How do they deal with sex offenders?







:rofl:




But seriously.

[NoDOHC]

I would give 200% of my budget for this project for a fancy CDI system like you have Peter... (can I get one for $400?)

Other than that, I have personally replaced a MSD CDI system (6AL) with LS2 coils with a significant reduction in misfires and power increase of about 15 Hp (400ish horsepower N/A V8).

Strangely, I too found the CDI to misfire significantly more at idle (as TTT found).

All I want is enough ignition energy to light the air/fuel charge in my Naturally Aspirated Rotary until the VE decreases to the point that I might as well stop. I am expecting this to be between 9,000 and 10,000 RPM. I am reasonably confident that 120mJ of ignition energy will get the job done.

If every car was a Ferrari, I would be walking to work.

I just want something that is functional and inexpensive.

The LS2 coils appear to fit the bill.

I hope they do, because I have installed them on the car and will hopefully be starting it this weekend.

[RICE RACING]

MSD is not know as MY SPARK DISAPPEARED in our game without good reason :smilielol5:

The right products even in that brand can work ;)

You will see Rod Millen Toyota Tacoma fitted with a MSD dis2 HO, it only makes 1000bhp from 2lt though :gnorsi: it will be part of the stuff I will copy and post up.

I need to go play some Elvis songs now "In the Ghetto" :smilielol5:

[RICE RACING]

I would give 200% of my budget for this project for a fancy CDI system like you have Peter... (can I get one for $400?)

Other than that, I have personally replaced a MSD CDI system (6AL) with LS2 coils with a significant reduction in misfires and power increase of about 15 Hp (400ish horsepower N/A V8).

Strangely, I too found the CDI to misfire significantly more at idle (as TTT found).

All I want is enough ignition energy to light the air/fuel charge in my Naturally Aspirated Rotary until the VE decreases to the point that I might as well stop. I am expecting this to be between 9,000 and 10,000 RPM. I am reasonably confident that 120mJ of ignition energy will get the job done.

If every car was a Ferrari, I would be walking to work.

I just want something that is functional and inexpensive.

The LS2 coils appear to fit the bill.

I hope they do, because I have installed them on the car and will hopefully be starting it this weekend.

Another type of ign I have been trialing from Japan is ULTRA CDI's, Mazda factory use them on most PP set up's they are working well.

CDI really is the best, though I suppose some type of inductive could be made to work, but I doubt it will ever be on par.

[RICE RACING]

If you have access to a scope I'd like to see how much current, secondary kV, and burn time, you get on your system.

[rx71king]

mr rice.. what cdi setup would you recommend for someone running a dizzy

[RICE RACING]

mr rice.. what cdi setup would you recommend for someone running a dizzy

Many years ago I ran this set up on a 13BT (12AT dizzy set up).

2 x MSD6A's
2 x MSD round coils

Worked well, did leading and trailing, idle was sweet, ran 20psi boost with water injection not a problem. Was cheap as fuck cause you could buy the combo from Summit or JEGS.

These older heaps of turd work well, there is a nice video around of V8KILLA (36psi) 13B-REW with PT T76 turbo (680rwhp set up) uses 3 x MSD6A's.

Crane Hi6 is a real good unit, better electronics than the MSD6A and when combined with LX-92 CDI coils these work sweet too. Idle, power high revs the whole box n dice. You will love it.

[rx71king]

i have been using msd stuff for 15 years. i want some thing more powerful... more like m&w pro10.. what do you think

[RICE RACING]

i have been using msd stuff for 15 years. i want some thing more powerful... more like m&w pro10.. what do you think

M&W has a bad wrap here (burn out quicker than Lidsay Lohan), Dynatek have the highest rating and moderate cost. I don't like anything with the word "pro" in it :rofl:

Dynatek ARC-2.
Dynatek 0.5 ohm coils.

You can weld with it. and its constant duty rated at high power.

Autronic 500R is an excellent CDI, used them many times. The MSD Dis2 HO is proven and been used on mega powerful turbo cars, I personally know of people running it and have done for years trouble free.

What ever you buy DONT BUY AEM!!! They are the biggest heap of shit known to man kind.

[TitaniumTT]

I can't find a price on the Autronic systems, but within a few minutes I found the Dynateck setup for $300 and the coils run $160 for the pair, so for $620 you can have a CDI system. That equates to about $200-$300 more than a top of the line inductive setup. I'd rock that if someone can prove a VERY stable, stock like idle and a few more ponies up top :suspect:

I guess Autronic doesn't need to sell any systems becuase I couldn't find anything online... I will admit I gave up easy :rofl:

[rx71king]

i will look into them.. thanks for the choices...:icon_tup:

[RICE RACING]

I can't find a price on the Autronic systems, but within a few minutes I found the Dynateck setup for $300 and the coils run $160 for the pair, so for $620 you can have a CDI system. That equates to about $200-$300 more than a top of the line inductive setup. I'd rock that if someone can prove a VERY stable, stock like idle and a few more ponies up top :suspect:

I guess Autronic doesn't need to sell any systems becuase I couldn't find anything online... I will admit I gave up easy :rofl:

I used to have video's up of mine on idle .........

I can tell you in my own car looking over data logs (I know I am obsessive about that shit almost as much as you!) that there is on same boost, same AFR, same timing about a 0.2 second advantage on the CDI to the inductive (HKS DLI, new Mazda coils, new NGK leads) going from 90-140kmh in 3rd gear. The biggest difference is the ability to tune the way you want, not the way the ignition system will tolerate.

In my own case I can set much more water injection, a bigger spark plug gap, a richer fuel mixture too, and have more rpm after the A typical power band peak for a stock 13B-REW port. This is solely down to the increase ign capacity as we have already spoken about.

I just came back from a drive now, and the car is going the best it ever has gone, I refitted my CDI coil on plug system as I had reached the practical limit posed by the inductive. Far from being placebo the raw hard data shows its better, and the idle on the same AFR and timing is sweeter (remember nothing changed bar the ign system). It is great being able to test this crap, not so much the hard labor pulling half the car apart to fit the various parts :nopity: but the driving and testing after and then being able to freely test new tuning theory in practice is what its all about, and I can only reiterate a fully developed proven CDI package will free you up to make your tuning safer and at the same time make much more power as well :o16:

[RETed]

Hey TTT, are you running some kinda funky split on idle?
I've never had problems with my Crane Cams HI-6 on stock leadings on an FC - trailings are stock.
My experience supports RR's comments, spot on.

I was running that funky "reverse split" ignition timing once, and that's when the idle was not stable.
Sure, you can run slightly leaner on reverse split, but it wasn't worth the hassle IMO.


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

Here is the set up for people who don't know, these pics are old but its just a bit tidier than this now.

RR COP
3 x CDI system
Leading wasted spark (one CDI per plug), one twin channel CDI for trailing, need one CDI per Leading as though twin channel there is not enough charge time for full capacity on leading with both channels firing together.

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9764&stc=1&d=1298701720

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9763&stc=1&d=1298701694

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9762&stc=1&d=1298701651

[TitaniumTT]

Me likey.... but why the COP? Are leads really losing that much current such that it canbe measured?

[TitaniumTT]

Hey TTT, are you running some kinda funky split on idle?
I've never had problems with my Crane Cams HI-6 on stock leadings on an FC - trailings are stock.
My experience supports RR's comments, spot on.

I was running that funky "reverse split" ignition timing once, and that's when the idle was not stable.
Sure, you can run slightly leaner on reverse split, but it wasn't worth the hassle IMO.


-Ted

Hey Ted, nope, running a basae timing of 5* that ramps up REALLY quick to 25*. The 5* is in the 1000-1100 range, and 35-55 kpa. The split was a striaght 10* across the board. It since changed after my trip to CA where a buddy blended his cruise map with my map. So now it's 5* @ idle (I haven't noticed a difference) 0* by 1500 and -4* in the cruise ranges. Helped the mpg as I was able to lean the hell out of the fuel map and run 1.05L while cruising. Brought EGT's down as well which is what we were trying to do.

With the ECU you were using, were you not able to adjust the split based on load or rpms? Was it constant?

[RICE RACING]

Me likey.... but why the COP? Are leads really losing that much current such that it canbe measured?

*A brand new R7420 spark plug as around 2.4kOhms resistance.
*A brand new NGK leading "short" spark plug lead has ............... 2.4kOhms resistance.

COP = no resistance :) :biggthumpup:

There is less ign "noise" on a well designed COP boot as well.
It is tricky designing the COP system right and to be reliable (re contacts) and in our case rigidly mounted and easy to take on and off, without hating yourself and life :18: ........ I have all those bugs worked out and it's fully sweet now :cheers2:

Yes TTT it is worth the effort, for you it would be easy to make and allot of fun fun fun :tongue1:

[RICE RACING]

The ignition is the single most important aspect in a high powered car, it makes the difference between you telling the motor what to do V's it dictating to you how and when and what it wants to run, I simply copied this basic fact from the old WW2 boys who were using magneto and huge current and energy ignitions to run massive water to fuel ratio's, once I figured out that key element/restriction of normal ways of thinking today a whole new world in terms of power and reliability were open to me.

Here is a picture of the CDI & COP systems current and burn time as measured on my pecoscope, it is very powerful !

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/34/trailingfrontrotor.jpg

This is picoscope testing of my CDI system, for current flow, primary voltage, secondary burn time, number of spark restrikes.... works well even a newb with electricity like me can figure it out

Burn time is roughly 420us or .4 milliseconds and there is 6 separate restrikes at 1000rpm over roughly 5 milliseconds per cycle. System pulls about 25 amps of first spark and 13 amps for the restrike sparks.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9273/rrcditest.jpg

[RICE RACING]

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

This is a good read "for the internet" :)

[NoDOHC]

Due to budget constraints, I have not purchased any fancy CDI systems (hoping that someone gives me one...)

I did split the cost of a set of Junkyard LS2 coils with a friend, making my part of the expense $75.00

I haven't taken the car through it's paces yet (still in tuning phase - as I made the switch to an E8 at the same time and it handles the injector staging differently) but the low-end smoothness and cold starting are significantly improved over the stock ignition. Both ignition systems start very well warm, but on a 10 degree day, the engine had trouble starting with stock ignition, now it cranks a few times, catches a couple times and then starts.

Obviously I will be going to the dyno sometime in the near future (as soon as enough snow melts that I can get out of the garage), I will see if the ignition change picked me up any power. I need to get a baseline before I install the Defined Autoworks headers anyway.

[RICE RACING]

:)The ultimate ign set up, This is the DON! :)

Here is pics of the RR COP CD system mounted up (CD boxes next to battery on custom holder), wiring harness and COP's installed.

Few Grasshoppers & bugs from extensive real world testing on the front bumper! they stand no chance at "moderate" speeds :)

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9753/img2502cdisystem.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5373/img2497cdisystem.jpg

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8711/img2500cdisystem.jpg

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7416/img2501cdisystem.jpg

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3152/img2524cdisystem.jpg

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4651/img2517cdisystem.jpg

Covered 1600km in last 2 weeks :D big boost bro! CD makes a massive difference over the HKS DLI and stock coils/leads combo.

[RICE RACING]

WINNING!

See my build thread, the CD ignition rocks the box of best anal scene 2008 Charlie Sheen Goddess style yo.

:grouphug:

Much better performance
Far bigger tuning window
Much safer settings allowed by the CD

[vex]

So... Just curious on what your thoughts are on these coils (they're not CDI):

http://www.034motorsport.com/ignition-solutions-034-high-output-dis-coil-wbuilt-in-ttl-driver-p-277.html

[NoDOHC]

They list ignition energy in Volts (should be in Joules).

I would want to know what ignition energy they will supply.

Ignition energy: Energy is the area under the power vs. time curve. LS2 Coils are about 120-130 mJ

The voltage is comparable to the LS2 coils (they make about 75kV).

LS2 coils are cheap. (I paid $75.00 for 4)

Off the top of my head, I see no advantage between these coils and LS2 coils other than it appears that these would take a lower dwell time (about 4 ms).

The LS2 coils like 5.5 ms. = 6 ms cycle time = 10,000 rpm max.

4 ms = 4.5 ms cycle time = 13,333 rpm max.

Obviously, CDI can rev much higher, this is it's biggest advantage over inductive.

[TitaniumTT]

So... Just curious on what your thoughts are on these coils (they're not CDI):

http://www.034motorsport.com/ignition-solutions-034-high-output-dis-coil-wbuilt-in-ttl-driver-p-277.html

I tested those coils back to back with my Bosch coils

They picked up 4hp when she was running pig ass nasty stank rich.

Where she was running .85-9L, they didn't pick up anything.

When she was running .75L and the where the Bosch coils where skipping, those coils picked up the ponies and didn't mis-fire

They list ignition energy in Volts (should be in Joules).

I would want to know what ignition energy they will supply.

Ignition energy: Energy is the area under the power vs. time curve. LS2 Coils are about 120-130 mJ

The voltage is comparable to the LS2 coils (they make about 75kV).

LS2 coils are cheap. (I paid $75.00 for 4)

Off the top of my head, I see no advantage between these coils and LS2 coils other than it appears that these would take a lower dwell time (about 4 ms).

The LS2 coils like 5.5 ms. = 6 ms cycle time = 10,000 rpm max.

4 ms = 4.5 ms cycle time = 13,333 rpm max.

Obviously, CDI can rev much higher, this is it's biggest advantage over inductive.

I ran those coils @ 3.5ms and had no issues. Running them with that many ms is high in the duty cycle, all that really does is overheat the coils. The LS2 coils have been known to auto-ignite and pop engines when cranking. I still plan on testing the LS2 and LS1 coils against my Bosch coils. I suspect they'll loose a little power compared to the Bosch and the QuickSilver coils that Vex mentioned

[NoDOHC]

The LS2 coils have been known to auto-ignite and pop engines when cranking.


Interesting, I wish that I had heard that previously. I have had no issues to date, but I have carefully isolated the ignition circuit (both hot and signal ground go all the way back to the battery, while the coil secondary ground connection is made on the rotor housing). I wonder if the individual setting it up installed sufficient bypass capacitance...

It requires less than 1 mA to the igniter to fire the coil, so a little noise could definitely cause that.

How do you pop an engine by auto-igniting while cranking?


I still plan on testing the LS2 and LS1 coils against my Bosch coils. I suspect they'll loose a little power compared to the Bosch and the QuickSilver coils that Vex mentioned.


I wish I had talked to you before I made my decision (although I still would probably have chosen the inexpensive route). It appears that those I spoke to about LS2 coils had a much higher opinion of them than you do.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that they will make less power? The LS2 coils spec out well (not that specs mean much, but you have to go by something).

Anyway, If you want a set to test, I may be able to get you one, but I will have to talk to my buddy (who bought the other 4) as to when he will need his.

[TitaniumTT]

Interesting, I wish that I had heard that previously. I have had no issues to date, but I have carefully isolated the ignition circuit (both hot and signal ground go all the way back to the battery, while the coil secondary ground connection is made on the rotor housing). I wonder if the individual setting it up installed sufficient bypass capacitance...

It requires less than 1 mA to the igniter to fire the coil, so a little noise could definitely cause that.

How do you pop an engine by auto-igniting while cranking?

It's happening to some RX8 guys that can't adjust the dwell time.



I wish I had talked to you before I made my decision (although I still would probably have chosen the inexpensive route). It appears that those I spoke to about LS2 coils had a much higher opinion of them than you do.

It's a GM product, I'm obliged to have a poor opinion of them :D

Out of curiosity, why do you think that they will make less power? The LS2 coils spec out well (not that specs mean much, but you have to go by something).

LS1<LS2<LS7. As shown by numbers. LS7<Bosch<QuickSilver based on a few different totally unrelated tests. As aweful as that sounds, I know of a person that tested the LS7's vs the Bosch, and I've had the Bosch against the Quicksilvers.

The Quicksilvers are a stout coil. They light off some nasty mixes. I want to get Peters CDI kit and put them against the best of the inductives in a non water injected, lower RPM envirornment

Anyway, If you want a set to test, I may be able to get you one, but I will have to talk to my buddy (who bought the other 4) as to when he will need his.[/QUOTE]

[RICE RACING]

Screw using the coil as inductor, it works heaps better as a step up transformer (CD) system.

There are stacks of DIY CD systems (youtube it) you'll see tons of video's of cunts who have made there own systems. Seems allot less trouble than frying coils using excessive charge times in the hope of initiating a suitable spark.

No doubt in my mind that CD gives a far better spark after I personally documented the on road performance improvement that also backed up the increased power recording too.

This week I will get around to scanning that Mazda article on CD ignitions V's inductive.

[TitaniumTT]

Please do man, I would love to read it. Especially as it's tested on a much lower hp, lower rpm, more normal street type engine. Like I said to ya earlier, in my mind it'll make a huge difference on an engine like yours - huge combustion pressure, water injected, etc etc, but an n/a, stock port, 7k redline engine.... not so much.... but that's me

[RICE RACING]

Please do man, I would love to read it. Especially as it's tested on a much lower hp, lower rpm, more normal street type engine. Like I said to ya earlier, in my mind it'll make a huge difference on an engine like yours - huge combustion pressure, water injected, etc etc, but an n/a, stock port, 7k redline engine.... not so much.... but that's me


Here you go Inductive lover :)

Page 1
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9816&stc=1&d=1299570250

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http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9817&stc=1&d=1299570312

[TitaniumTT]

:rofl: Thanks man! I shall study tonight when I get a chance

[dudemaaan]

To the OP, so far the talk has been on getting a stronger ignition for better spark output. Just curious if you have gone to the basics and tried spark plugs that required less current? Iridium plugs have a smaller electrode and conduct electricity better then most other plug materials which would result in a hotter spark with the same voltage.

I know when I switched to iridiums the difference was night and day, not only in how the car ran, but also in the life of the plugs. I ran through b10egv plugs every couple of months, and have been running the same set of iridiums for 2 years now. They were expensive initially, but have more then payed for themselves in the 2 years running them.

I don't have a great ignition system, just a twin power, 10mm wires, stock coils, and iridium plugs, but I have never had breakup and it lights my 750cc/min water injected rotary running 26 psi and 10.9:1 afr's just fine. Maybe I have some power left on the table, but that's okay the car is dangerous enough.

[vex]

Here you go Inductive lover :)


:rofl: Thanks man! I shall study tonight when I get a chance

I have that article too as well as a few others. "Recent Technology Development of High-Powered Rotary Engine at Mazda." SAE 841017, 1984. Do you by chance of 900036, 912479, 940309, and 950454? I couldn't find those when I looked.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I don't know if I could justify the increase in price from an HEI to a CDI for the 7.88 HP increase at 8000 RPM. For a race, shop, or similar type setup of course, but looking strictly at the numbers; that's a lot of money for a small amount of HP.

[RICE RACING]

To the OP, so far the talk has been on getting a stronger ignition for better spark output. Just curious if you have gone to the basics and tried spark plugs that required less current? Iridium plugs have a smaller electrode and conduct electricity better then most other plug materials which would result in a hotter spark with the same voltage.

I know when I switched to iridiums the difference was night and day, not only in how the car ran, but also in the life of the plugs. I ran through b10egv plugs every couple of months, and have been running the same set of iridiums for 2 years now. They were expensive initially, but have more then payed for themselves in the 2 years running them.

I don't have a great ignition system, just a twin power, 10mm wires, stock coils, and iridium plugs, but I have never had breakup and it lights my 750cc/min water injected rotary running 26 psi and 10.9:1 afr's just fine. Maybe I have some power left on the table, but that's okay the car is dangerous enough.

^ Have you ever actually tested your car? be it to confirm the power or the speed of the vehicle with something like a VBOX instrument?

I'd like to see some numbers from it so we can compare it.

[RICE RACING]

I have that article too as well as a few others. "Recent Technology Development of High-Powered Rotary Engine at Mazda." SAE 841017, 1984. Do you by chance of 900036, 912479, 940309, and 950454? I couldn't find those when I looked.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I don't know if I could justify the increase in price from an HEI to a CDI for the 7.88 HP increase at 8000 RPM. For a race, shop, or similar type setup of course, but looking strictly at the numbers; that's a lot of money for a small amount of HP.

Power is just one side.

The others are (and these are tangible effects) is firing of the plug when it is fouled (allows you to use racing heat range at all times), Ability to fire all kinds of mixtures (heavy fuel and lean fuel). Better fuel economy (I have noticed this on CD Ignition).

Just some more things to think about. Though it can be expensive, especially if you go full anal like I did :o13:

[vex]

Power is just one side.

The others are (and these are tangible effects) is firing of the plug when it is fouled (allows you to use racing heat range at all times), Ability to fire all kinds of mixtures (heavy fuel and lean fuel). Better fuel economy (I have noticed this on CD Ignition).

Just some more things to think about. Though it can be expensive, especially if you go full anal like I did :o13:
I understand what you're saying and would like to know a little bit more. When you're talking about heavy fuel and lean fuel mixture what numbers are we talking about? The coils I linked seem to be able to handle extremely rich fuel mixtures (I'm not sure about lean as TTT didn't really tell me if he tested 'em there) without issue.

When the plug is fouled do you see a decrease in performance? I would think that continually firing when the plug is carbon fouled would just result in additional fouling becoming present on the plug leading to the same effect as the HEI just later on in the plug lifetime.

MPG's; I would think would be more indicative of driving style rather than spark energy, but if you have data to support it than so be it.:Angel_anim:

[My5ABaby]

So...

Budget: LS1 or LS2
Midrange: 034
$$$: CDI

?

Though it can be painful, especially if you go full anal like I did :o13:
Fixed. :willy_nilly:

[RICE RACING]

You know when you petrol foul a plug, the car will misfire is bad enough at light cruise, your EGT will go up and it mostly happens on the trailing spark plug as the fuel easily gets trapped in behind the blind plug hole.

it's a catch 22 you run the right heat range for full power and if you cruise it too much or have not enough load you will foul a plug, this is mostly the reason the CD was instituted @ mazda for competition engines, anyone running a Peripheral Port will tell you that who has lived with one as a daily (I did for about 7 years) but back then was ghetto spec and could not afford SFA let alone a don mega CD set up.

On a lean fuel setting 15:1 or weaker you will see the CD will fire better and more consistently compared to Inductive, all round I say my experience is its a better system of ignition, but again like all good things it costs ca$h.

[TitaniumTT]

Power is just one side.

The others are (and these are tangible effects) is firing of the plug when it is fouled (allows you to use racing heat range at all times), Ability to fire all kinds of mixtures (heavy fuel and lean fuel). Better fuel economy (I have noticed this on CD Ignition).

Just some more things to think about. Though it can be expensive, especially if you go full anal like I did :o13:

Soooooo, what are you saying? ;)

So...

Budget: LS1 or LS2
Midrange: 034
$$$: CDI

Budget = stock. LS1 coils are crap.. I wet fouled one after 15 minutes of idling after a rebuild. Haven't had a chance to test the LS2's yet. Don't think they'll compare to the QuickSilver coils though.

Just to clarify, the "034" coils aren't 034 coils. They're QuickSilver coils. QuickSilver being a division of Mercury Marine. The coils come off of their 150hp+ OptiMax outboards.. iirc....

You know when you petrol foul a plug, the car will misfire is bad enough at light cruise, your EGT will go up and it mostly happens on the trailing spark plug as the fuel easily gets trapped in behind the blind plug hole.

it's a catch 22 you run the right heat range for full power and if you cruise it too much or have not enough load you will foul a plug, this is mostly the reason the CD was instituted @ mazda for competition engines, anyone running a Peripheral Port will tell you that who has lived with one as a daily (I did for about 7 years) but back then was ghetto spec and could not afford SFA let alone a don mega CD set up.

On a lean fuel setting 15:1 or weaker you will see the CD will fire better and more consistently compared to Inductive, all round I say my experience is its a better system of ignition, but again like all good things it costs ca$h.

Good info here...

[vex]

I have that article too as well as a few others. "Recent Technology Development of High-Powered Rotary Engine at Mazda." SAE 841017, 1984. Do you by chance have 900036, 912479, 940309, and 950454? I couldn't find those when I looked.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I don't know if I could justify the increase in price from an HEI to a CDI for the 7.88 HP increase at 8000 RPM. For a race, shop, or similar type setup of course, but looking strictly at the numbers; that's a lot of money for a small amount of HP.
Fixed

[NoDOHC]

Ok, so I have an unfortunate update:

I made 185 WHP at 5,400 rpm.

Peak torque was 182 W Lb-Ft at 5,300 rpm.

The reason that I list the peak WHp at 5,400 rpm is that I lost compression on the front rotor at 5,400 rpm.

The failure is a classic spark plug boss growth failure (chips off apex seals).

There was almost no marking on the rotor at all (all grooves are still in spec) but the housing is damaged.

I will post pictures later.

The reason that I posted this here is because it appears that the housing growth issue is much worse with higher spark energy (I ran for 4 hours, about 20 runs with the factory ignition with no issues).

I think that I should try turning the pulse width down and run cooler Iridium Spark plugs as dudemaaan suggested.

I never got a chance to see what the plug would do for very high rev testing. I only got to 9,000 rpm once, blew the front rotor on the second run of the day. (first run was with 11.2:1 AFR and netted 176 WHP @ 8,800 RPM, second run was with 13.2:1 AFR).

[ROT8WA]

Erm, I'm not sure how you a running LS2 coils with a CDI box as the Ls2 coils have there own built in Ignitors. I thought that this type of coil would be a total miss match on a CDI system?

I would give 200% of my budget for this project for a fancy CDI system like you have Peter... (can I get one for $400?)

Other than that, I have personally replaced a MSD CDI system (6AL) with LS2 coils with a significant reduction in misfires and power increase of about 15 Hp (400ish horsepower N/A V8).

Strangely, I too found the CDI to misfire significantly more at idle (as TTT found).

All I want is enough ignition energy to light the air/fuel charge in my Naturally Aspirated Rotary until the VE decreases to the point that I might as well stop. I am expecting this to be between 9,000 and 10,000 RPM. I am reasonably confident that 120mJ of ignition energy will get the job done.

If every car was a Ferrari, I would be walking to work.

I just want something that is functional and inexpensive.

The LS2 coils appear to fit the bill.

I hope they do, because I have installed them on the car and will hopefully be starting it this weekend.

[ROT8WA]

Sorry Guys, scratch that last post, I misread what was written.

I didn't realize that the MSD was "replaced" with LS2 coils..

[NoDOHC]

Short update:

I finally came to what appears to be a logical conclusion on the engine failure.

My first problem was that I was running an experimental 15 degree negative split on the ignition timing, second was that I had never calibrated the CAS. Unfortunately, this required the death of yet another set of apex seals to discover.

It turns out that the rattling noise that I was always hearing in second and third gear on the highway (which was really loud on the Dyno, in 4th gear) was not the transmission, but was actually preignition. I am surprised that the engine held together for 6,500 miles like that. I thought that I was running 32 degrees BTDC timing, but I was actually running 42 degrees timing leading (not really too bad) and 57 degrees BTDC timing trailing (which caused the preignition).

Other information for his thread:
F
Iridium Plugs really help, they lowered EGT, improved idle quality, and significantly improved preignition resistance.

Clean spark plugs are a must for an hard acceleration or dunno runs.

I made 1 dyno run in second gear (warmup) with the Defined Autoworks headers (which are really awesome, by the way) and put down over 230 WHp at 8,800 RPM (which reads very low, as the test was done in 2nd gear). My first 3rd gear run made 218 WHp at 6,800 RPM (which was max rpm where all faces of both rotors were operational). I was hoping to do an actual 4th gear run, which usually read about 5% higher, but chipped an apex seal on the front rotor.

I wish I could post the graphs, but the printer was down at the Dyno and I really just wanted to get home after breaking the engine again. This allowed me to catch the CAS stabbing mistake (which accounted for 10 degrees of the unintended advance), but unfortunately did not allow me to catch the negative split issue. I caught the negative split issue later when I heard the engine rattling again after the seals were replaced on the front rotor. A later tear down to replace oil seals revealed that three of 6 apex Seals were broken, but remained in the groove, allowing the engine to make compression.

Returning the trailing timing to 0 degree split and setting the leading spark advance to 34 degrees eliminated preignition for about 2,000 miles. Unfortunately, after everything got broken in and carboned up, even this configuration rattled, requiring new spark plugs (which are not cheap). NGK iridium plugs resolved this issue for about 6,000 miles so far.

When I can afford the engine blowing up, (which will probably be spring) I will try again on the dyno. (Getting dyno plots this time).

[RICE RACING]

Good job, thanks for updates ;)
you will like my thread in the tech section on 13B power at one bar absolute pressure, its all turbo but in terms you understand... N/A.

[RETed]

I don't understand why you're having so much trouble with a non-turbo set-up...?

The "mistakes" you mention are all basically rookie mistakes that could've been easily prevented if you have made diligent checks.
Blaming stuff like "spark plug boss growth" is almost - I'm sorry to say - BDC-esque, where you're grasping at straws looking for something to blame...

Tuning the NA should be pretty quick and efficient.
Messing around with spark plug heat ranges shouldn't be that big of a deal unless you're tuning on the ragged edge of reliability?
(I thought this was a daily driver?)
The fact that you're fighting "dirty" spark plugs implies that you're still running too rich, or your spark plug heat ranges are wrong - i.e. too cold.
What's going on?


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

eons ago when I fucked around with N/A Peripheral Ports, inductive ignitions were the way to solve all the hassels with firing plugs, it was straight out of the Mazda factory racing hand book, however I was a broke ass like BDC and could not afford shit so inductive it was, and had similar nightmares like this bloke. < (well boxes of spark plugs changes anyway)

Inductive is garbage, always has been on rotaries always will be.

Man Up and get a CDI system, you will long forget needing to change plugs (hot warm up) cold racing lol! one plug does ALL! and you never ever need to worry about fouling, CDI gets through ground shunts with ease, does not care about fouled plugs so it is made for very low air speed poor fuel mixing Peripheral Ports are natorious for.

Leave inductive ignitions for the rookies and ass hat tuners. :smilielol5:

[RETed]

Okay, I had to go back and reread this whole thread...

I can understand if we're dealing with some "exotic" ported engine, like a PP, but the OP is using a regular side-port engine?
The .sig just says "4-port NA"...
So we're not dealing with some kinda massive port with air / fuel homogeneous mixture problems, right?


-Ted

[88turboii]

im havingn trouble with the LS2 truck coils, thinking about upgrading to IGN-1A's

[C. Ludwig]

Take a trip over to yellowbullet.com and do some reading on the truck coils. The domestic guys will hardly touch them.