FC3S Murray's never ending build.

[FC3S Murray]

Hi all,

I HATE to do this but my build thread is in the "other" forum. I figured if anyone is interested, by all means take a peak. I will continue to update on this forum as well.

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=694027

I have it up on jack stands right now fixing a coolant issue that I should have known better to "rig". I will have it back on the road by next weekend and am planning on hitting the dyno late May or mid June.

Here are a couple pics of the "finished" product(quotations because it is ever changing :))

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09001.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09028.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09021.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09024.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09027.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09014.jpg

[FC3S Murray]

I am a HUGE S4 tail fan!

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09012.jpg

Engine...

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/Familyphotoalbum018.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/Familyphotoalbum016.jpg

Current set-up with a couple extra goodies

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09007.jpg

interior

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/apr09010.jpg


Thanks for looking and as I promised, updates will be here too. Cheers!

[Fidelity101]

that is a sexy blue!

[WE3RX7]

Nice color, very clean... what color is that?

I dont want to jump to the "other" forum to read the entire thing, lol..

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks. It is 1999 Honda SI Electron Blue with a Ferrari/Glasurit clear.

[rotorhead87]

Damn I love your car! I've been looking at your car ever since I signed up to 7club. I think I remember asking what tire size your were running out the back. 265 right?

[REVIT93RX7]

Very clean car. Looks superb!

[RCCAZ 1]

Wow FC3S Murray.... the attention to detail is impeccable. Great job. Great choices on everything in the engine bay and the final product really shows how time and attention to detail pays off! Extremely clean ride!

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks guys!

[Viperx7]

Great looking car. Love the color.

[FC3S Murray]

Update: Bad news sort of....

I have a hair line crack at the dowel casting on my rear iron. It is slowly seaping oil, about a drip every 30 seconds. I was in denial at first and I replaced o-rings on my pedistal, sealed the Oil Pressure port, ect. But i watched it seap from the casting and I just uttered, "F*CK!"

It IS the S4 rear iron so I guess it just can't take even 360 whp. So sad because I just was about to dyno.

GOOD NEWS is I am going to order a brand new rear iron from Mazdatrix and from what Kevin Landers told me Mazda will send me with the iron with the BEEFIER casting. Kevin says he hasn't ordered a S4 rear iron BUT S5 he has and it was beefier.

So I will take the engine out, pull the bad iron CAREFULLY, trace the port job since I have no template, Port the new one, put in new water seals and o-ring and original side seals. Kinda risky but this is my ONLY option right now. Mazdatrix and Racing Beat techs told me today that they have done the procedure and both stated, "just don't move the engine around a lot once tension bolts are removed."

Gonna be a while before she is back on the road due to moving in to a new house we bought BUT never the less this still isn't as BAD AS A BLOWN engine.

Will update wiith pictures during the removal and install. F*ck me sideways man!

[FC3S Murray]

Just ordered a new S4 13BT rear iron from Mazdatrix.

Mazdatrix confirmed that Mazda does send a new unit with the beefier casting, so I will only have to port the new iron as opposed to having to deal with buying a S5 rear iron and enlarging the rest of my S4 ports to comply with the 1/8 '' S5 larger port.

Mazdatrix recommended that I buy a new rear rotor housing since they state all cracked rear iron motors "oval" the dowel hole area on the rear rotor housing.

I am skeptical since I do not push high boost and the rear iron did not explode on me.

I requested some measurements from them regarding limits on the rear housing since the FSM does not specify in the ENGINE secition and the TECHNICAL INFO section as well.

I am awaiting a response.

Stay tuned

[FC3S Murray]

Mazdatrix got back to me and said there is no measurement check because mazda wasn't expecting people to push these little pea shooters this hard.

To sum it up they said if there is any wiggle in the dowel pin once i remove the rear iron, the rear rotor housing should be replaced.

I also am going to measure the hole with a caliper and see if it is uniform.

Man, I am slowly losing patience with rotaries. This isn't my first time either, this would be engine # 6 if this one dies. 1 a year: 3 to mechanical failure, 2 to stupidity and 1 to TOO much power. haha.

[TitaniumTT]

Spring is out and the rotaries are popping like the spring time flowers. Sorry to hear about the iron, look at it this way, a few hundred bucks and you can push more power ;)

BTW....... LOVE the color, LOVE the tails :suspect:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w55/duffman692002/DGRR%2009/DSCN0748.jpg

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks man. Your color is great and unique. I need not mention the tails since "our kind" are slanderized for such hideous 80's tail light obsession.

I HOPE this is jsut a remove and replace job. If that rear rotor housing is fucked so is my hope to have it out this summer. With the new mortgage, a rebuild is gonna take enough time and money to let damn old man winter rear his ugly head again up here in Montana by the time I am finished.

Wife and daughter make free time very very slim.

[FC3S Murray]

...............................man I am losing motivation to even stay in the rotary scene. Never ending bullshit!

[TitaniumTT]

Rotaries - only the strong survive.

Hang in there man. I can tell you from experience, mostly bad, expensive, and of the setback variety. It's worth it when they're done. Very few cars can make my pants tight when I drive them.

[FC3S Murray]

I know I know. I got my new rear iron in today. Will post up some pics when I get home.

Pretty beefy new casting.

[FC3S Murray]

So after a couple calls to some rotary performance shops and a little critical thinking I decided to order 3 new side seals as well.

I figured since I am putting a brand new iron on there is no reason to use the old side seals and prolong the break in time. The new seals will not have near as many imperfections and will break in the new iron faster.

I am still in the air over how long I should break in the new iron/seals. I am awaiting word from Kevin BUT I think I am gonna play it safe and go 1500 miles. :(

That is a shit load of city driving but it beats rushing it and popping the motor. At least I have the engine tuned for the most part and will only need to add a little more fuel on the top just for added safety until I see what this new port on the rear iron flows like.

Speaking of the port, I am going to send the bad iron and the new iron to Rotary Performance in Texas to match port since they were the orignal builders/porters of this motor.

I am a little reluctant leaving the engine torn apart for that time frame BUT I will have that SOB safety wired snug. I bet I use a whole spool of that shit. :)
I REALLY wish I could just send the new iron to Chris and have him do a "standard" street port but unfortunately they built this motor so long ago who knows if the port template has changed. It just isn't worth the risk of the new iron having a larger OR smaller port then the rest of the engine and risking a different AFR per rotor chamber because of air flow differences.

Pics up soon as soon as I move into my new house next weekend. It is amazing how much crap can pile up in your garage over time when building these cars. I am HORRIBLE at saving shit.

[JShiz]

That sucks. Don't give up. Your car is truely amazing.

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks. I won't give up, I have too much shit specifically for this car. Would be a huge loss to my wallet too.

Kevin told me that break in is almost none existant on side seals. GREAT news!!

[classicauto]

Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about the mileage with regards to side seals bedding into that iron.

Biggest thing IMO with fresh items like irons and housings (or bearings) would be getting a few heat cycles into the part(s) before laying down the law.

Best of luck bro, we should have a rebuild race! :lol:

[FC3S Murray]

Best of luck bro, we should have a rebuild race! :lol:

I would hope you win. You got to be damn fast at it now. lol :)

[TitaniumTT]

Best of luck bro, we should have a rebuild race! :lol:

:suspect:

Good luck Murray. Most important thing with breakin, I have found anyway, is a few good heat cycles. You can do 1500 miles at once and they won't be broken it too well. A dozen heat cycles would be plenty I should think. Beautiful car, clean project, glad to see you're sticking with it

-Brian

[classicauto]

:suspect:

Is this the "how many bloody rebuild races can you have in a season" smilie :lol:

[TitaniumTT]

Sorta, it's the I went to the dyno/comp test today and got 3 bounces of 113 on the front and 3 bounces @ 113 on the rear and one @ 88. So we think a side seal got stuck. We were going to dyno today but the convo went like this
So Dave, ya wanna strap her down and have some fun?
You're gonna break her if you do
Really? I've put ~2k+ miles since the overheat.
Yeah, but not on the dyno.
No, but really?
You want me to call Enterprise and reserve a car for you?
:rofl: So we just hung around and shot the shit for a few hours.

So yeah, gonna be doing pretty much exactely what Murray is doing. Popping the rear plate, fixing what's bad, and reassembling. THEN go back to the dyno, up the boost, and the rev limit. Personally, it's the boost that I want, I kept working the sequentials on the trip home, my rotary lord those things spool like a bejeezus. Without paying attention I hit the boost cut ~2k in 5th. Boost cut is 14psi right now. SICK SICK SICK response.

So yeah Murray.... you game?

[FC3S Murray]

Oh I am game! You might have me beat though. I have the wife hanging over my head with the death stare until we finish painting the inside of the new house. Two weeks and the games begin!!

Thanks for the compliments as well.

[vex]

I just realized... I have the same head unit as you, battery, FPR, and same rail set up... I can't tell for sure, but I may have the same (or similar) turbo as you as well.

[FC3S Murray]

I just realized... I have the same head unit as you, battery, FPR, and same rail set up... I can't tell for sure, but I may have the same (or similar) turbo as you as well.

62-1 turbonetics. You my friend have good taste. :)

[TitaniumTT]

Oh I am game! You might have me beat though. I have the wife hanging over my head with the death stare until we finish painting the inside of the new house. Two weeks and the games begin!!

Thanks for the compliments as well.

Hmmmm, well I just went auto-x'ing and realized that there are two things that I need - More RPM's and low end boost - sequentials. Can't get either until I get the motor rebuilt. Next event is June 7th, I'm hoping to make it.

[FC3S Murray]

June 7th...damn. You are pushing it close. Seems like enough time but you know how that goes with these fuckers.

[TitaniumTT]

Oh I know ALLLLLL to well. I still have hopes though. As long as I get her done for the 6/18 trackday @ Limerock I'll be happier. I'll be happiest if it was done tomorrow but that's just not about to happen.

[FC3S Murray]

Well I got my side seals in yesterday as well as my NEW inner coolant seal.

I love Mazdatrix and their parts availability BUT recently they have hit a rough patch with me in regards to their packaging perfromance. Last week I recieved my rear iron replacement parts(seals, o-rings ect) and inside the priority mail package they just shoved the inner coolant seal in the envelope....well that led to the seal kinking and cracking. I called them and they immediately said they will send me a new one.

So then yesterday I got my side seals in and the new coolant seal. The coolant seal was taped to a solid 8x13 cardboard sheet(good stuff) BUT the side seals were just wrapped in a zip lock bag with a thin foam 1/16 inch sheet wrapped around them. You would think this would be adequate protection for the side seals if it were shipped in a BOX, but instead they shipped it in another envelope. When I got the envelope you could see a curved wear mark that damn near cut through the packaging where the side seals were sitting.

I was about to kill the post man but after I opened it up and inspected them and found no damage I was cool headed.


You would just think some people would use common sense and put fragile items in a box. Anyway I need more coffee and sorry about the rant.

[My5ABaby]

You would just think some people would use common sense and put fragile items in a box. Anyway I need more coffee and sorry about the rant.

You would think so. :rofl:

[FC3S Murray]

Well we are moved into the new place. Almost time to rip into the FC. God knows that I better get on it fast because home maintenance is gonna take priority soon.

[FC3S Murray]

I got a hold of a cherry picker today...needless to say I am pretty damn stoked! I refuse to buy one because that is just wishing for bad joo joo.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE011.jpg


I almost don't want to rip into her...she is still driveable and the weather is PERFECt now. Fuck!

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE006.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE008.jpg

Pic of the new house. Got it for a great price and is a wonderful home for our daughter. The FC better not break again or it is going to be sold because this S.O.B is gonna take ALL my time..


http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE002.jpg


Pics will be up soon of the surgery

[FC3S Murray]

Got a day off today so....started at 9AM and by 3pm it is ready to pull.


After about 1 hour.....
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE012.jpg

??My coolanted looked a little rusty considering it was brand new about 50 miles ago. Maybe residual coolant?? Be interesting to see the condition of my water jackets. :scratch:
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE013.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE014.jpg

Engine by about 1:30
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE015.jpg


Found this little bitch crack:banghead:. I wonder if I should go Banzia Mounts OR Mazdaspeed stiffer stock mounts? If anyone has input, please DO
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE016.jpg


Will update later this evening or tomorrow.

[vex]

Looks like a stress fracture from heat cycling. I am personally running mazda comp mounts and like them. Not too stiff, not too much give. Still can't really feel any vibrations through the chasis from the engine but is able to provide me with a good feel when I get on it.

[WE3RX7]

Looking good - I'd go MS Comp mounts, I use them now on everything.

[FC3S Murray]

And.......its out.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE020.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE021.jpg


I bought this HKS 10psi spring for my HKFake WG. The member I bought it from replaced the diaphram and spring with HKS parts. He SAID the spring is the yellow 10lb spring BUT I hold 14.7 psi in 2,3 & 4th gear. SO i think he put in the purple spring from HKS which is rated in the 50MM at 14.7 psi.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE019.jpg

If it is yellow spring inside like the seller said then that is impressive that it holds at a steady psi after the creep.

-----BTW is there anything I need to know before hand when I go to rip inside this wastegate? Any input on past mistakes or tips would be appreciated.



Surgery on the block starts soon.................




As for the mounts I think I will go Mazdaspeed.

[TitaniumTT]

Looking good so far man :icon_tup:

I tell ya, the first time I had to haul a motor.......... 10 years or so ago I was going to rent one. Then I came across one in the bargain news for almost as much as I was going to pay so I bought it. That thing gets used for more shit now. Not only my engine, but the engine on my boat, the diesels at the yacht club, my buddies rotary, soon his LS's, shit, we even used the damn thing to pick his shell up and get it on the rotisserie. I would just drop the coin. If you do, you won't need one, if you don't you know you will. Just saying

As for the mounts - Mazdacomp. me likey so far but I also have a torque brace on my engine so I can't tell you how stiff they are. i can tell you they don't vibrate though.

[vex]

With the waste gate it's pretty straight forward. Undo the cap screws, keep track of them. Be careful of the diaphragm and inspect it for abnormal wear. Pull old spring, insert new spring. Install cap screws and torque to spec (couple in-lbs or so).

[FC3S Murray]

With the waste gate it's pretty straight forward. Undo the cap screws, keep track of them. Be careful of the diaphragm and inspect it for abnormal wear. Pull old spring, insert new spring. Install cap screws and torque to spec (couple in-lbs or so).

That is what i figured. I would like to get a hold of the torque specs from HKS but their customer service blows. I think 40 in lbs will do.

Does the WG need to be off the exhaust manifold? Only reason I ask is the heads of the bolts to the WG are damn near stripped and I would love to avoid another hic-up right now(laziness i know)
Thanks man.

[vex]

That is what i figured. I would like to get a hold of the torque specs from HKS but their customer service blows. I think 40 in lbs will do.

Does the WG need to be off the exhaust manifold? Only reason I ask is the heads of the bolts to the WG are damn near stripped and I would love to avoid another hic-up right now(laziness i know)
Thanks man.

If it's anything like the turbonetics one, then no. You should be good. When I did mine, it was brand new though so I didn't really have any issues with it at all. I don't remember the valve having to be removed or anything--which makes sense since the spring is just to help provide positive pressure on the plunger.

I'd say just do it. Honestly if you're nervous about the torque spec lube up the cap screws with some loctite and tighten it down until it bottoms out and can't be more than finger tight.

[FC3S Murray]

I bought the poly mounts from Himni Racing. Great products and great service.

[FC3S Murray]

So when I get to the removal of the counter wieght, I wonder if I should remove the rear stationary gear THEN remove the rear iron. Tell me if my thinking here is wrong, but with the rear stat gear out, removing the rear iron will allow for less chance of the rear stat gear possibly strike or nudge the engine.

Forgive me for the paranoia BUT i am freaking myself out due to all the bad joo joo that could happen if the motor shifts on me. I will have that bitch safety wired down with .040 wire around the base of the spark plugs. It shouldn't move.

I am so edgy right now because this is my LAST leg with this car. If it don't work, I am through and some one will have a new project. Kills me BUT time is non-existant and my priorities have changed since I have had this car the last 6 years.


I ordered a new water thermo sensor today since it wouldn't hurt. ALLsensors now are brand new on the motor. I also had to order a new pilot bearing seal since it was tore up when I removed the engine.

Should rip into her tonight OR tomorrow. Will have some pics of the crack up soon.

[vex]

Honestly I think your worries are unfounded with pulling the stat gear. If I were in your shoes I would probably just leave it in and have persons keeping in eye on the engine while you take off the rear. If you're still unsure about it you can always pull the stat gear and go from there. I would honestly be more concerned of moving the stat gear first because you already have the eccentric shaft there to help guide it straight up. If you have everything already torqued down and not shifting I would just let the eccentric shaft and gear guide you up and out without nudging anything.

Just my thoughts though. But then again, I would just strip the entire engine down and rebuild... but you do what you gotta do.

[FC3S Murray]

I am gonna leave the stat gear on and will remove it after the iron is off to replace the o-ring and rear main seal.



Just my thoughts though. But then again, I would just strip the entire engine down and rebuild... but you do what you gotta do.

I just can't justify a total tear down for this bull shit break. I am not gonna fork out more cash on this pig when this should be an easy BUT percise procedure. Waste of time in my opinion to rebuild unless you just want practice. I would like to do it BUT I get maybe an HOUR of free time every two days. Maybe when I get some extra leave from work.

[vex]

I am gonna leave the stat gear on and will remove it after the iron is off to replace the o-ring and rear main seal.




I just can't justify a total tear down for this bull shit break. I am not gonna fork out more cash on this pig when this should be an easy BUT percise procedure. Waste of time in my opinion to rebuild unless you just want practice. I would like to do it BUT I get maybe an HOUR of free time every two days. Maybe when I get some extra leave from work.

Yeah, I understand. I'm just anal. I tore down my just rebuilt engine because I couldn't physically remember placing all the fire seals in the engine and I had one left off. Took me an hour to tear it down and rebuild after that. But if you can just pull it and look and fix what you gotta fix do it.

[TitaniumTT]

Removing the rear stat gear from the rear iron without being able to pound it out from the combustion arear I would thing would be pretty tough. With the block safety wired it shouldn't move and the e-shaft will keep the rotor in place. Things I would watch for are side/corner seals coming out of place, assist pieces moving around as well. Actually, I would take the rotor out VERY carefully and reglue the apex seals to make sure they don't bind and ruin a housing becuase, that would suck

[FC3S Murray]

Removing the rear stat gear from the rear iron without being able to pound it out from the combustion arear I would thing would be pretty tough. With the block safety wired it shouldn't move and the e-shaft will keep the rotor in place. Things I would watch for are side/corner seals coming out of place, assist pieces moving around as well. Actually, I would take the rotor out VERY carefully and reglue the apex seals to make sure they don't bind and ruin a housing becuase, that would suck

I have a special tool to remove the Stat gear. However I am just gonna leave it in. As for the seals, I knew about the glue used to keep the seals in place but what is the actual name of the glue?

I start to remove the JB weld I put all over the crack tonight.......that will be fun:cuss:

[vex]

I have a special tool to remove the Stat gear. However I am just gonna leave it in. As for the seals, I knew about the glue used to keep the seals in place but what is the actual name of the glue?

I start to remove the JB weld I put all over the crack tonight.......that will be fun:cuss:

It's just an anaerobic sealant. Think a loctite that lets go at a temperature higher than 300F

[FC3S Murray]

Good to know. I have a shit load of locktite.

[vex]

I personally just used vasoline or the safeway equivalent. Just held the seals together while the engine was getting assembled. Not much trouble. For a more accurate description, check out the FSM. They tell you what number loctite to use.

[classicauto]

I just use crazy glue. I set the calipers a couple thou wider then the housing, lock them in place, glue small piece of seal, jam against the large piece inside the caliper.

Sets them all to get broken (off the glue) when you torque down the keg, and holds them in place for a sec while the glue dries, works ducky!

[TitaniumTT]

Watch out for this guy............ he's a thinker.

Crazy glue is what I've used in the past. Can get the exact name for you if you like. I had to glue my RA Super seals together. I place them on my stainless work bench on top of a piece of that releaseable tin foil with the waxed edge facing up. I use an old unwarped apex seal that I lay as a guide so the assist piece and the seal are on the same plan. A dab on the assit piece and place the assist piece against the Apex seal with the old seal keeping them lined up. Then I fold the wax paper over the seal and using a second old apex seal sandwich the foil between the piece being glued and the old apex seal. Hold for thirty seconds or so, peel it off the foil and using carb cleaner remove the excess glue. Otherwise, the assist piece will break off as you try to slide it down the rotor.

Joes method is way cooler though.

[FC3S Murray]

Holy shit I have been busy. At this rate I won't get the damn engine in 'til mid August. I need to hustle.

Anyway, I was able to get some free time last night and "sand" off that fucking JB Weld:icon_no2:

Here is the abomination before I ripped into it
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE022.jpg


AND afterwords
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE026.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE025.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE024.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE023.jpg

I ended up rounding the edge of the rear rotor housing a little bit. Regardless I can catch my finger nail on the rear iron and rear rotor housing mating surface. It should just come off easy now.

Tomorrow I will safety wire the rear and front rotor housings tight to the exhaust studs to secure it from lifting and shifting water seals upon disassembly.

MAN that shit went everywhere when I put the dremel to it. MESSY but those sand paper flapper wheels are the bomb!

I will update soon.

[FC3S Murray]

Well my engine is fucked. Rear iron had no crack, O-ring by dowel was shot (crazy I know). Upon inspection I found some crazy shit. I tore engine down completely. I will post pics tonight of the "great" port jobs and part condition.

HOWEVER I am looking for some rotor housings.

[TitaniumTT]

You have a PM, Sean ;) We'll get ya back on the road pronto.

[classicauto]

What? Shitacular.

Awaiting carnage pics/info....ahh the elegant dance of the rebuild :lol:

[TitaniumTT]

Race anyone? Joe and I are tied @ 1 each :rofl:

Sean, you have a PM again and my cell phone is in an email to you somewhere.... I can't remember which one I sent it too :scratch:

[FC3S Murray]

So here is the carnage from this motor.

REAR ROTOR HOUSING
As you can see this housing was fucked from the get go and should NOT have been used.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE060.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE059.jpg

FRONT ROTOR HOUSING
In better shape then the rear but is by no means a "good" condition housing. Those valleys in the first pic and ones by the exhaust catch your finger nail easily.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE061.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE062.jpg


REAR IRON: Was in actually great shape. No high lips from seal wear on both inner and outer tracks. the port though......
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE064.jpg
Pretty ugly IMO

And funny that this little guy was OK. I still can't believe the Dowel O-ring was bad. I tossed it or I would have had a pic up of it.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE063.jpg

[FC3S Murray]

INTERMEDIATE IRON
This outer seal lip does barely catch your nail and I am unsure if anyone would re-use it?
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE065.jpg



This is the front rotor side and it has some interesting wear. Looks to be sanded down for this "outstanding" build.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE044.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE043.jpg

Sweet ports with complimentary dremel tracks:icon_tup:
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE066.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE039.jpg

[FC3S Murray]

All the sweet corrision from when the motor sat static for 5 years
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE042.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE041.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE048.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE049.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE050.jpg
Good news is there is no pitting near gas seals BUT I dont know if I will use these irons.

[FC3S Murray]

FRONT ROTOR
Looks good and no sign of damage.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE052.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE051.jpg

REAR ROTOR
Bearings look just as good as front rotor
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE053.jpg
....however there are two apex seal slots that have a ever so slightly "hair lip". I am unsure if this is bad but if I remeber right you just need to sand them down.?. correct me if wrong
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE058.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE054.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE057.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE055.jpg

The rest of the engine parts are in great shape. Stat gear bearings look great as well as teeth. Oil pump almost like new as well as throw out bearings in front and rear.

It is just very sad to see such poor craftsmanship from a credible shop. I know that in this case the original owner of the motor wanted the ECONOMY-BUILD but this is re-damn-diculas. I am VERY surprised there was no flaking on the rear housing. BUT in defense of this motor, the son-of-a-bitch was STRONG for being such a Frankenstein build.

I already have used S5 N/A housings on the way compliments of a friend (Thanks buddy). I am negotiating with some people on irons right now and am most likely going to have Dave Atkin port which ever ones I get. I WILL be going with the RA Super Seals. New springs all around as well. Might take a month or two to get everything BUT I AM GONNA FUCIKNG DO THIS RIGHT. No more BS and relying on other people’s poor craftsmanship and negligent maintenance practices.

Will update soon.

[TitaniumTT]

;) Everything looks good to me Sean. As for the corrosion on the irons, like I said earlier, as long as it's not close or weakening the gas seal area, which it clearly isn't, you should be in great shape. I would spend some time with a pic and a circular wire brush and get as much of that crap out as possible and don't forget to flush the exchangers both ways with a fair amount of pressure. My rad is still pucking crap from the first engine which, exactely the same as yours, sat static for 5 years.

As for the rotors........ I would clean everything up till no carbon remained in or around the apex seal slots and mic everything up and make sure it's withen spec. It's tough to tell from the pics but it looks like one of the slots bows out towards the end. I would be leary of that.

Which apex seals where used? The chatter marks look pretty bad.

The irons and the ports, the intermediate ports looks good.... as for the cutting tool hits...... I would take a fresh side seal, or the back of a used one and move it over in every single direction and see if it catches. If it doesn't, which I doubt it will becuase the engine has been run, I wouldn't worry tooooooooo much about them. Is it ideal? No. Liveable? Yes. The wear, well you can always get them lapped and re-nitrated. There is a member here, he has a few threads in the general tech section about his services. He'll be getting the irons that I have that are in my basement right now. Remember my comments about compression and irons......

Side seals - I would replace those along with the springs. The 86-95 seals are all the same. The S6 springs are stiffer though, or so I have been told. Makes sense as they are a different part number. & be careful clearancing them. The difference between good and no good is .1MM and I set all mine to between .05-.08mm. My tip would be to buy 14 or 15 just in case. I broke one grinding it.

Anyway, if you want to call feel free, you have my number. I need to cut a check to pay off my last rebuild :rolleyes: (my CC co HATES me! Never a balance despite the $3,700 bill this month :rofl: ) and then I'm swapping fuel tanks and pumps and filters in prep for tomorrow's dyno....... then I may just drive to PA tonight. The short is, I'll prob be up till ~midnight eastern time so don't be shy.

Good luck and keep us all updated.

-B

[TitaniumTT]

Might take a month or two to get everything BUT I AM GONNA FUCIKNG DO THIS RIGHT. No more BS and relying on other people’s poor craftsmanship and negligent maintenance practices.

Will update soon.

Judging my the rest of your car, the only thing that falls into this category is what you just pulled apart.:icon_tup:

[FC3S Murray]

Forgot to post FRONT IRON port.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE046.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE045.jpg

[FC3S Murray]

Which apex seals where used? The chatter marks look pretty bad.


Standard 2mm Mazda???
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE067.jpg


The irons and the ports, the intermediate ports looks good.... as for the cutting tool hits...... I would take a fresh side seal, or the back of a used one and move it over in every single direction and see if it catches. If it doesn't, which I doubt it will becuase the engine has been run, I wouldn't worry tooooooooo much about them. Is it ideal? No. Liveable? Yes.

I am still a little reluctant if I want to use this intermediate iron. I do not want to fork out that much cash for lapping on the front and intermediate(new rear on is good just needs port). I don't know, my last motor I took apart had even a bigger lip in it and it had 105 compression all around. :leaving: I would most likely find a ported intermediate that is within spec...themn I won't have to invest the time into waiting on the lapping and cleaing the coolant jackets.

Remember my goal is August. With Family and work that is flying.:001_005:


Side seals - I would replace those along with the springs. The 86-95 seals are all the same. The S6 springs are stiffer though, or so I have been told. Makes sense as they are a different part number. & be careful clearancing them. The difference between good and no good is .1MM and I set all mine to between .05-.08mm. My tip would be to buy 14 or 15 just in case. I broke one grinding it

I planned on doing new side seals. Springs too. QUESTION, what apex seal springs do I go with when I use the RA Super Seals?


Judging my the rest of your car, the only thing that falls into this category is what you just pulled apart.

Thanks man. I hope this goes well.

BTW good luck with the dyno session tomorrow. I wish for only lots of HP and very few problems. I will shoot you a line if I have any ques's.

[vex]

To handle the lips on the rotors use a sharpening stone. and gently file it down until the proper contour is made. Also continually inspect and check the fitment of the proper Apex seal.

[FC3S Murray]

Took some more photos of the questionable REAR rotor apex seal grooves.

Here are all six..
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE070.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE076.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE073.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE072.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE074.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE075.jpg

I cant find a spec in the FSM, All i can find is clearance between Apex seal and rotor apex seal slot.

[WE3RX7]

Some light filing on the tips should clean them up... its hard to tell the gap though. You can always get it milled to 3m if you're not sure...

[classicauto]

Those are Rotary aviation seals by the looks of the assist/small piece.

The OEM's have a very very tiny part of the assist section that actually touches the housing, like .009. Those are much bigger

That would explain the chatter anyways.

Sorry to hear about the findings

Personally I'd stay away from the aviation stuff - it'll tear up your housings. But to each his own :)

EDIT2: Also, if you look at the wear line on the top apex seal, you can see how it heads down the seal in a few areas. Not good - either mill or replace those rotors. Even the two bottom seals - which have mostly STRAIGHT wear - are down pretty far on the beam. The wear should be a *little* higher on the seal in a perfect engine. However save for the seal on top with the jagged wear, the other two are liveable.

[FC3S Murray]

I already bought RA Super Seals. So far all I have heard is good things to include wear on housings as long as you PREMIX.

What do you think about the rear rotor slot Classic?

[vex]

I already bought RA Super Seals. So far all I have heard is good things to include wear on housings as long as you PREMIX.

What do you think about the rear rotor slot Classic?

Premix shouldn't really matter a whole lot. Take a look at the oil thread in general rotary. There's interesting data in there.

[TitaniumTT]

Premix will make a big difference in the wear characteristics on the entire engine. I'm premixing in my tank (even though I FUCKING HATE IT WITH AN UNEQUIVICABLE PASSION) as well as using my RA adapter and 2 stroke tank. Basically I'll be running about 256:1 in the tank constantly and the OMP will inject the rest.

I've heard some ridiculous stories and and been a part of two myself, I'll tell you what I think about my super seals when I see them in a few days.

[TitaniumTT]

Looks like standard 2mm Mazda
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE067.jpg

I haven't slept in 40 hours so I'm a little loopy but they look like the old style of aviation seals.

They were associated with chatter marks, HOWEVER, so are other things. I found out today actually that something to really look into would be the correct counterweights/rotor weights used.


I am still a little reluctant if I want to use this intermediate iron. I do not want to fork out that much cash for lapping on the front and intermediate(new rear on is good just needs port). I don't know, my last motor I took apart had even a bigger lip in it and it had 105 compression all around. :leaving: I would most likely find a ported intermediate that is within spec...themn I won't have to invest the time into waiting on the lapping and cleaing the coolant jackets.

Remember my goal is August. With Family and work that is flying.:001_005:

Yeah I hear ya on the cash and the timeframe but remember (generally) Rushing takes longer and cheap costs more in the long run.



I planned on doing new side seals. Springs too. QUESTION, what apex seal springs do I go with when I use the RA Super Seals?

Rotary Aviation Race Springs. I believe they are $72/set


Thanks man. I hope this goes well.

BTW good luck with the dyno session tomorrow. I wish for only lots of HP and very few problems. I will shoot you a line if I have any ques's.

Take your time and I'm sure it will... as for the dyno, we didn't even get passed the pre-dyno compression test :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: Details in my thread so as not to jack yours. Shoot me a line if you have some questions and you also have a PM.

[FC3S Murray]

So I got a hold of a Dial Indicator and took some measurements on both my front and intermediate irons.

I was worried about my intermediate and actually have a 40K one on standby waiting to buy.

Here are the pics with measurements.


FRONT IRON
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE077.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE080.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE079.jpg



GOOD SIDE OF INTERMEDIATE IRON
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE078.jpg

Questionalble side of INTERMEDIATE
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE081.jpg

most of the lips are .001''
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE082.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE084.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE085.jpg

This lip was wierd...actual wear line measured less then .001'' BUT then gradually went up until .003'' goings towards the water jackets.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE083.jpg
Not to mention it looks like they were sanded down and the overall rotational pattern looks out of place??


I also measured my rotor apex seal grooves with a V Caliper.

Front rotor Apex seal spaces(all 6) above corner seal area measured: 2.02 -2.04 mm

Rear rotor and the questionable one measured on one side: 2.04-2.05mm AND the other side......: 2.15-2.18mm

Bad rear rotor, FUCK! Add that to the list.

[FC3S Murray]

Rotary Aviation Race Springs. I believe they are $72/set


DAMN they are out of stock!

[TitaniumTT]

Uh oh, I may need a set too.

What rotor are you in need of?

[classicauto]

I already bought RA Super Seals. So far all I have heard is good things to include wear on housings as long as you PREMIX.

What do you think about the rear rotor slot Classic?

The rear rotor looks a little shakey as well. Not too bad though, just be careful measuring.

When it comes to apex seal slots I'm just very anal because they are the most fragile items - and if they're not supported 100% you're risking a premature failure so I always expect really good, straight and proper width slots.

[vex]

Premix will make a big difference in the wear characteristics on the entire engine. I'm premixing in my tank (even though I FUCKING HATE IT WITH AN UNEQUIVICABLE PASSION) as well as using my RA adapter and 2 stroke tank. Basically I'll be running about 256:1 in the tank constantly and the OMP will inject the rest.

I've heard some ridiculous stories and and been a part of two myself, I'll tell you what I think about my super seals when I see them in a few days.

Running premix over ashless "conventional" (doesn't mean conventional in the conventional sense, more along the lines of regular oil but could be conventional or synthetic) actually has increased wear. I believe the math worked out to about 1/3 less longevity of the seals when compared with regular oil. I'll post up a few links to it. Give me a sec.

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showpost.php?p=80296&postcount=9
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showpost.php?p=80443&postcount=12
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showpost.php?p=80681&postcount=14

[FC3S Murray]

So what do you recommend Vex? Different pre-mix or keep OMP system?

[vex]

So what do you recommend Vex? Different pre-mix or keep OMP system?

It really depends. Do you know the mode of failure with this engine (besides the obvious hardware failure--Ports, etc)? If you were having issues with pre-ignition events I would arrange to use the modified OMP to pump in two stroke directly into the combustion chamber while even throwing in a few ounces into the fuel. This will increase wear on the Apex seals slightly but should eliminate all ash deposits from forming on the rotor surfaces (assuming a clean burn of the fuel in the combustion process). If however you were having more wear problems or some seals were doing damage from increased friction I would use an extremely high grade synthetic/conventional oil with known VOA's (Virgin Oil Analysis) and UOA's (Used Oil Analysis) that show extremely low calcium or even none existent calcium deposits--and thereby having decreased sulfated ash deposits.

If you do go two stroke I highly recommend using the modified OMP because it will allow you to maintain your regular oil reserve for internal lubrication. These parts will then be protected from increased wear of the two stroke, increasing the longevity of the bearings and other wear surfaces internal of the engine. Running the modified OMP will also allow you to maintain an easy indication of the two-stroke oil level and allow proper lubrication of all the seals that see combustion.

If however you choose to stay with regular conventional/synthetic oils I would ensure you use a high grade oil and ensure that proper lubrication is being achieved for the combustion surfaces. These should hopefully be addressed while the engine is out of the car and broken down. Oil injectors, oi lines, oil cooler, oil pump, anything and everything with the oil will need to be spec'd or modified to help increase flow (this includes, but is not limited to increasing the oil pressure to help with lubrication).

[FC3S Murray]

So I have ordered a intermediate and front iron from Japan2La that are out of a low mileage jspec. They are being sent to BDC as well as my new rear iron to get a street port done right.

I am in the process of trying to get a new S4 TII rear rotor but can not tell for the life of me if my good front rotor is marked D or E

My rear was marked C so I assume it is D for the front BUT I WILL NOT ASSUME anything with this motor.

here is the front rotor ID
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE086.jpg

AND THE BAD REAR ROTOR ID
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE088.jpg


I will be putting up a for sale thread with these irons and some parts I have piled up over the years. I need cash for this build so I will let some shit go. :)

[WE3RX7]

That is hard to tell..... are the etchings the same "font" for the C and the D - almost looks like they are which would make me think its a D rotor on the rear? Not to mention, it appears the "D" and the "C" from each rotor are facing the same direction where the "E" seems backwards. If not, I would assume your rear is an E rotor, but that E looks like it has a little overlap on the middle line which would not happen in general machining stamping...

Since the motor has been apart before, its hard to really know - but generally the motors I've seen are C/D combos. From what I understand, you can use C with anything but you can't jump a letter such as a B with a D, etc.

Not sure if that helps, but food for thought...

[classicauto]

looks to me to be a C and D weight.

But yeah, too many damn stamps on those rotors. You'd think if mazda wanted to be so critical with the weighting, they'd have......hmmm.......maybe......just put weight codes on them? Instead of weight codes plus 17,000 other random, letter shaped things :lol:

[WE3RX7]

Yea - 12A rotors are easier to read IMHO, mazda went crazy on later engines... my 6pt NA rotors had numerous markings on them too...

[FC3S Murray]

The rear rotor looks a little shakey as well. Not too bad though, just be careful measuring.

When it comes to apex seal slots I'm just very anal because they are the most fragile items - and if they're not supported 100% you're risking a premature failure so I always expect really good, straight and proper width slots.

Hey Classic did you read what I actually got for measurements on the apex seal slots on the rear rotor?

[classicauto]

Yea I saw that one of the slots was quite a bit wider..don't recall if you said it was the front or rear though. IIRC the rear was fine, but front haad one out of spec?

I guess my pic viewing micrometer needs a recalibration haha.....but yeah as long as your measurements show they're in spec, you're rockin! :)

[FC3S Murray]

Yea I saw that one of the slots was quite a bit wider..don't recall if you said it was the front or rear though. IIRC the rear was fine, but front haad one out of spec?

I guess my pic viewing micrometer needs a recalibration haha.....but yeah as long as your measurements show they're in spec, you're rockin! :)


Ha, I actually measured them bro. Front rotor slots all measured between 2.01-2.04mm. The bad rear rotor had one side with 2.03-2.05 BUT the other side of the rotor measured 2.15-2.18.

No good in my opinion. However, I can not find specs on the wear limits. ONly specs when Apex seal is installed via FSM.

[TitaniumTT]

Yea I saw that one of the slots was quite a bit wider..don't recall if you said it was the front or rear though. IIRC the rear was fine, but front haad one out of spec?

I guess my pic viewing micrometer needs a recalibration haha.....but yeah as long as your measurements show they're in spec, you're rockin! :)

Well, assuming 2mm apex seals are 2mm's ;) .15-.18 is too much slop IMHO

Ha, I actually measured them bro. Front rotor slots all measured between 2.01-2.04mm. The bad rear rotor had one side with 2.03-2.05 BUT the other side of the rotor measured 2.15-2.18.

No good in my opinion. However, I can not find specs on the wear limits. ONly specs when Apex seal is installed via FSM.

I don't think you should use it. A rotor should be cheap and easy to come by, shit, I have 2 S4 n/a's and one S5/6......... although I'll know in about 12 hours if I'm going to be using them or not. Actually, I'd go for S5 n/a rotors if I need one or both. The suspense is killing me. Leaving for KDR in 7 hours.

BTW Sean, housing went out on Thursday ;) Lemme know when you get them and what you think.

-B

[vex]

Ha, I actually measured them bro. Front rotor slots all measured between 2.01-2.04mm. The bad rear rotor had one side with 2.03-2.05 BUT the other side of the rotor measured 2.15-2.18.

No good in my opinion. However, I can not find specs on the wear limits. ONly specs when Apex seal is installed via FSM.

Usually the apex seals vary a little in thickness and hence why the FSM has it using the seals as part of the measurements. Check the seals and see what the dimensions of them are. You'd be surprised and might find a few that measure 2.03mm maybe more if they were exceptionally sloppy.

[FC3S Murray]

Well, assuming 2mm apex seals are 2mm's ;) .15-.18 is too much slop IMHO



I don't think you should use it. A rotor should be cheap and easy to come by, shit, I have 2 S4 n/a's and one S5/6......... although I'll know in about 12 hours if I'm going to be using them or not. Actually, I'd go for S5 n/a rotors if I need one or both. The suspense is killing me. Leaving for KDR in 7 hours.

BTW Sean, housing went out on Thursday ;) Lemme know when you get them and what you think.

-B


S5N/A rotors really?? Isn't the compression ratio too high? Shit I can't find any s4 or s5 TII rotors for less then 400.00 a pair. BUT there are a shit load of N/A's out there in great shape for cheap.

I would have to re-tune for sure since I am pushing 15psi. What are you running bro??

BTW thanks for getting the housings out. :icon_tup::icon_tup:

[-=Lil Red=-]

The weight codes that I have seen in numerous engines that I have built have been. A, B, C, D, or E .

Your rotors are marked C and D. The other markings on the rotors serve for different purposes, like side seal gap.

[TitaniumTT]

S5N/A rotors really?? Isn't the compression ratio too high? Shit I can't find any s4 or s5 TII rotors for less then 400.00 a pair. BUT there are a shit load of N/A's out there in great shape for cheap.

I would have to re-tune for sure since I am pushing 15psi. What are you running bro??

BTW thanks for getting the housings out. :icon_tup::icon_tup:

Yeah, the comp is 9.7:1 in the S5 n/a's. Supposedly helps out with cruise and low end grunt. Need to accomadate in the tuning though. Doesn't really help or hurt in the top end with the boost that I plan to run. Not to mention Chadwick has been doing it for a while so I feel confident.

Re-tuning is going to be mandatory regardless of whether you change anything. You're going to have a much healthier engine at the end which will mean that things are tighter and she'll probably run leaner anyway.

The S4 n/a's are 9.4:1.
S4 TII - 8.5:1
S5 TII - 9.0:1

No worries on the housings. I feel bad that they were a day late. Please PM me when you get them though.

-B

[FC3S Murray]

Yeah, the comp is 9.7:1 in the S5 n/a's. Supposedly helps out with cruise and low end grunt. Need to accomadate in the tuning though. Doesn't really help or hurt in the top end with the boost that I plan to run. Not to mention Chadwick has been doing it for a while so I feel confident..

-B

That is crazy. I mean it makes sense but is such a "no no". I would most likely go with S4 N/A since it is a lower comp ratio then the S5. Then I am in need of rear and front matching counter weights too if I go that route.

The last time I researched on using N/A rotors with 15psi, it was looked at like major SIN. I know Aaron cake is running 12 psi on his N/A turbo application with no problems yet..

Hmmm....interesting. If Lucky 7 can't find me a S4 TII rotor OR give me a good price on a pair he has I MIGHT just go this route.

[TitaniumTT]

Well, here's the thing, timing makes power, not fuel. The oversimplification is less comp, less heat, more timing more power......... safely.

I have a front S4 counterweight if you want to take this route. Overall power between the rotors can be viewed as negligable. The real advantage is in the low end and vac runnings.

[FC3S Murray]

So Kevin Landers may have a rotor for me...I have a another on standby BUT would like to buy from kevin.

I have a quick question regarding side seal clearancing: So do you put one end of the side seal all the way against one of the corner seal eyelets and THEN clearance the other end? I feel stupid but I was checking some of my 50 side seals I have that are practically new and could not get the little fucker to stay still while clearancing one end. It would just slide slightly obviously screwing up my measurement.

[TitaniumTT]

I use a grinding stone and slowly take it down until it's the proper clearance. I do this with the seal out of the rotor. I measure the clearance by sliding the seal against one of the corner seals and then measure the gap at the other..

FWIW - in speaking with Dave on saturday, he's seen some Mazda reman's that hadn't been started yet that were set to 0 clearance. He generally sets his to 1/2 the Mazda recs or .02mm, something like .001" I think. With that said, that's what I'm going to try this time around.

[FC3S Murray]

.02mm is flipin crazy.....I like the word flip'in...but I also like this vodka. :)

You said Laura is goning send you some new seal and SPRINGS? I emailed them on friday and haven't heard if they got any racing ones in stock yet. They must. I will call tomorrow as soon as I finishing fucking this goose.....Grey Goose that is.

[TitaniumTT]

Goose is my favorite. Nice choice. I recently had some TX Vodka that was like 120 proof.... ridiculous.... expecially the things that it allowed me to do :rofl:

Yeah, they had like 4 sets left. Best thing to do is call. Laura's great to deal with and if you can't get her on the phone, leave a msg, she actually calls back.

GL man :icon_tup:

[FC3S Murray]

Goose is my favorite. Nice choice. I recently had some TX Vodka that was like 120 proof.... ridiculous.... expecially the things that it allowed me to do


I feel you on the 120 proof. Now if I could only get my wife to drink that, then the possibilities are endless;)

Purchased a rotor from Kevin Landers today, so that will be in next week.

All I have left is: to get my short block seal kit, oil control rings, side seals and some racing springs from RA. BDC is done porting my rear iron and should be recieving my intermediate and front from Japan2La soon.

Should be able to wrap all that stuff up next paycheck.

I just sent out my first mortgage check today.......good feeling granted the amount of ink I had to lay down on the "dollar" section of the check. :)

Lets hope I can get this stacked before August

[TitaniumTT]

I feel you on the 120 proof. Now if I could only get my wife to drink that, then the possibilities are endless;)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Purchased a rotor from Kevin Landers today, so that will be in next week.

All I have left is: to get my short block seal kit, oil control rings, side seals and some racing springs from RA. BDC is done porting my rear iron and should be recieving my intermediate and front from Japan2La soon.

Should be able to wrap all that stuff up next paycheck.

I just sent out my first mortgage check today.......good feeling granted the amount of ink I had to lay down on the "dollar" section of the check. :)

Lets hope I can get this stacked before August[/QUOTE]

August! It's a shame you live so far away Sean, I'd beat your ass if I could ;) Then I'd help out with those flipp'in clearances and get you back on the road before mid July....... You don't happen to have a really big truck with a car transport and a longing to visit the East Coast do you?

[FC3S Murray]

It's a shame you live so far away Sean, I'd beat your ass if I could Then I'd help out with those flipp'in clearances and get you back on the road before mid July....... You don't happen to have a really big truck with a car transport and a longing to visit the East Coast

Haha, family first you silly fuck. :) I am moving as fast as I can BUT for now I am chilling on vacation sip'in on a cold beer. Laura called me back and sent me some racing springs so I am almost there.

BTW, Halomar or just Petro???

[vex]

Both? Hymlar on the lower portion of the housings and petro on the O-Ring/Fire rings. That's if you're going by factory spec.

[TitaniumTT]

Haha, family first you silly fuck. :)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yeah yeah yeah, sometimes being "single" has it's advantages. I can devote all my time, energy, blood, sweat and other bodily fluids to my Most Ungreatful Mistress if I so choose, or I can devote it to the other

I am moving as fast as I can BUT for now I am chilling on vacation sip'in on a cold beer. Laura called me back and sent me some racing springs so I am almost there.

BTW, Halomar or just Petro???

Cool, I actually got all my seals in yesterday and the injectors showed up today. My Cryo'ed parts won't be ready until Tuesday though. So all that means is more time on the water. It'll be a welcomed distraction.

I use vaseline on the irons in the grooves for the water and gas seals. Then I put a VERY thin layer of Hylomar around the housing being VERY careful as to how much I apply and even more importantly, where. You'll see what I mean. Basically you don't want the Hylomar squeezing out into the housings and contacting apex seals. Also, head down to the local chandlery store and see if they have some epoxy syringes. Pack that bitch full of vaseline, you silly fuck ;), and use that to apply the vaseline to the the grooves. Works wonders. Way better than using your mitts to get it in there.

BTW - those housings show up yet?

[vex]

I wish I knew where to pick up those syringes when I was rebuilding mine. Major pita getting the vaso off my hands. Made me want to go spank my monkey in the corner... or maybe I should have done that on the housings?

[TitaniumTT]

:rofl:

A tip though if you plan on putting the hylomar on the housings as well is to put the dowel pins in first, then slide the housing over the dowel pins. This way you won't accidentally pull a seal out of the groove by it sticking to the hylomar ;)

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks for the tips guys.

VEX- I feel ya on the petro all over your hands. When I assisted in a couple builds years ago, I remember getting assigned that bitch job and afterwards I grabbed my beer to sit back and watch and the damn thing slipped out my hand, fell into a oil drip pan and splashed 10w-30 all over my cousins FD. :)


BDC sent me a pic text of his port job on my rear iron. Looks great and can't wait for further inspection.

I am off to go wake board, you all have a fun and safe 4th and Brian, make sure you spare some of that attention and bodily fluids for your girl........they tend to get jealous from time to time. Just ask my wife. :)

[TitaniumTT]

No worries Sean ;) The vasoline is quite a PITA. THe syringes I buy are fine enough to actually get it in the side seal groove as well.

Generally what I do also, because so much cripe sticks to the vasloine, is clearance all the rotors last. So the vasoline isn't sitting static collecting dust and dirt. Or, if I clearance everything but need to wait a day or two, I'll set everything with no vaso, and keep everything together with rubber bands. Then dissasemble, apply the vaso, then start stacking.

One more tip that I find eases starting - use both engine oil and 2-stroke oil when building the engine. Use the engine oil on the bearings, and between the side seals including the oil control rings. Use the 2-stroke where it can burn. It seems to really help in the starting. Even though you're cranking for a good minute maybe in 7 second bursts to get oil pressure up, check timing, check for leaks, etc etc, they still seems to start up MUCH quicker when I use the two stroke oil in the combustion area. Makes alot of sense too.

[WE3RX7]

Tons of good build tips in this thread :)

[TitaniumTT]

Sharing is Caring :lol:

[FC3S Murray]

Well clearancing side seals takes FOREVER!! Worth it though, I think I will go for .003

Now I don't know if this is a rumor but sometime ago I heard that you shouldn't use petro jelly on a rebuild if it is gonna stay static for a week or two due to swelling? Anyone confirm this, and if true what do you use?

[TitaniumTT]

You can use the vaso nastiness on all the hard metal seals. Where you don't want to use it is on any of the soft seals. The water seals, the o-rings, things like that. The seals will actually absord the vaso and swell to the point where they cannot be used. Leaving it on clearanced rotors is fine though, I would just put them in a bag to keep them clean though.

[FC3S Murray]

OK. Why the fuck does the FSM insist on using petro on the o-rings and water seals? So just install the water seals dry then?

BTW Brian, I still ahven't recieved the housings. You have a tracking number by chance. Thanks bro.

[TitaniumTT]

I think the FSM says to use the vaso bacuase they are assuming that the engine is going to be assembled immediately.

I wouldn't put the gas/water seals in dry, I just wouldn't put the vaso on the irons until you're ready to assemble the engine.

I've got the tracking number. Lemme grab it and see what's going on with that. The went out last friday. I understand there was a holiday involved but gimme a flippin break.

BTW - that vid will be in the mail on Thursday. It kinda covers what we're talking about here.

[FC3S Murray]

I think the FSM says to use the vaso bacuase they are assuming that the engine is going to be assembled immediately.

I wouldn't put the gas/water seals in dry, I just wouldn't put the vaso on the irons until you're ready to assemble the engine.

I've got the tracking number. Lemme grab it and see what's going on with that. The went out last friday. I understand there was a holiday involved but gimme a flippin break.

BTW - that vid will be in the mail on Thursday. It kinda covers what we're talking about here.

Thanks again buddy for all the help. It is very appreciated!

I just went through your thread again for shits and giggles and FUCK you have had a hell of a run. I never saw your cannon plugs in the firewall. I had that same idea back in 07 but got lazy and decided to just rewire the factory harness. I work with those cannon plugs everyday on the F-15/P&W 220's, and back when I was on the F-16 they always inspired me to put them in my 7. Good job!


So update on my build: BDC sent out my irons so I should recieve those by Monday. In addition my rotor should arrive the same time.

All I have left is to clean my good rotor(WD-40 time!!) and order all my water, side and oil seals.

I am a little relucant to clearance my side seals to .05mm....not much room for expansion in case a horrible quick overheat ever happens(which I will in all my control never let happen). Please enlighten me if I am just being a giant vagina but it seems safer.

Payday is Friday so Mazdatrix well get me the shit by friday of next week so.........build starts in two weeks.

[TitaniumTT]

Thanks Sean. I LOVE those cannon plugs. Never again will my back ache from installing an UIM after the engine is stabbed in. I assemble the ENTIRE engine, stab it in, make a few connections and BAM - fire time! No worries on the help, anytime. I'm going to get those tracking numbers for you in a few minutes.

Your vagina is oozing estgrogen ;) I've been clearancing them to .05mm and never had a problem (except for that one time during the emmisions test when water and oil got to 260*+). In fact, after talking to Dave, this engine will be .025-.03mm. He's also broken down Mazda Factory remans and found ZERO clearance, ported the engine, reassembled, and they just run like champs. So .05 is now my new max and it's Mazda's min.

Don't forget that alot of the cooling on the rotor's comes from the oil

[FC3S Murray]

Your vagina is oozing estgrogen

Shit I better get some VAGI-CLEAN and a garden hose.:o11:


Well I will clearance them to .05 because I am easily convinced. I am fucking pulling my hair out on this down time waiting for parts. I actually just PM'ed Barry Bordes in regards to the shitty HKS csat mani and 50mm WG I am running and how to port for less creep. The 50mm holds steady but with the 10psi yellow spring I still was hitting 14.5-15psi with the boost controller off. It doesn't go any higher then 15 ever.

That is my target AFR but I have no control with my boost controller and if I ever get a little creep on a cold night i have no way to lower it. I have fail safes like a Greddy relief valve set to 17 psi and my fuel maps set to 10% richer above 16 psi on my MAP scale but I want control too! :cuss:

I would go a whole other route with a better exhst mani but that means MORE fabriation to my DP and intercooler piping since my blow-off valve barely clears my strut tower. I just want to drive this summer.........winter project maybe if this creep cant be solved(if I break-in IN time for boost).

[FC3S Murray]

UPDATE:

So, I had a little hic-up last night with parts and all.

I received my 8.5:1 rotor from Kevin Landers yesterday. Cleaned very well and recommend to everyone. So I put it right next to my other "good" rotor and notice that the RR rotor has a MUCH deeper compression recession..................This STELLAR motor was running S4 N/A 9.4:1 rotors. :(

I was a little pissed since this was all i needed to start my build......so I thought. Anyhow I emailed Kevin and he agreed to send me another TII S4 rotor for a great price if I shipped him the cleaned S4 N/A rotor.


Now to the IRONS,

As I tore into the wet boxes caused from our thunderstorms all day(thank you post office fucks) I opened up the NEW S4 rear iron that I bought from Mazdatrix. The street ports from BDC was beautiful and so so so CLEAN.

Then I open the next box and inpsect the intermediate iron. This unit was slightly used from a jspec motor from japan2la. Again the iron and ports were GREAT.

On to the next box, I open her up and there I am staring at ANOTHER rear iron that is ported.?.?.?

To be honest I was pretty pissed, not at Japan2la or BDC BUT at the fact that this will burn more time from me getting on the road. I called BDC to insure he didn't mistakenly port a iron out of his stock that was for someone else. He called back and said that those were the irons he got from japan2la and he felt silly he didn't catch the mistake. He missed it due to receiving and porting my new rear iron 2 weeks before the other 2 irons showed up. He just got back from Vacation too between the elapsed time frame. He also stated that he would do a front iron port for no charge once I get the situation figured out with Brian @ Japan2La.

I am awaiting word from them today.


FUN STUFF!!!!!!!

[FC3S Murray]

Rotors
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE113.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE112.jpg

Irons

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE114.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE115.jpg

The second rear iron :)
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE118.jpg


Ports are GREAT compared to old engine

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE117.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE119.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE116.jpg


I talked to Brian at Japan2La and he is sending a front iron to Brian at BDC ASAP to get ported. He was very polite and I recommend him as well.

I guess I will start clearancing side seals for this one rotor for now.:icon_tup:

[TitaniumTT]

Shit I better get some VAGI-CLEAN and a garden hose.:o11:


Well I will clearance them to .05 because I am easily convinced. I am fucking pulling my hair out on this down time waiting for parts.

Yeah ya better. I just finished clearancing all my rotors. Had to buy a new feeler gauge set as the one I had wasn't going thin enough. All my side seals are between .025mm (.001") and .038mm (.0015") Took about 3 hours to do 2 rotors. Glad I bought 14 side seals again :rofl:

I would go a whole other route with a better exhst mani but that means MORE fabriation to my DP and intercooler piping since my blow-off valve barely clears my strut tower. I just want to drive this summer.........winter project maybe if this creep cant be solved(if I break-in IN time for boost).

Dude...... I did a few 250 mile laps around CT to get my engine broken in in time for LimeRock. Would've made it two if we didn't warp those Apex Seals on the dyno :banghead: I agree though, winter project, get on the fucking road! Summer's 1/2 over already.

Rotors
ttp://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE113.jpg[/IMG]

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE112.jpg[/IMG]

Irons

ttp://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE114.jpg[/IMG]

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE115.jpg[/IMG]

The second rear iron :)
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE118.jpg[/IMG]


Ports are GREAT compared to old engine

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE117.jpg[/IMG]

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE119.jpg[/IMG]

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE116.jpg[/IMG]


I talked to Brian at Japan2La and he is sending a front iron to Brian at BDC ASAP to get ported. He was very polite and I recommend him as well.

I guess I will start clearancing side seals for this one rotor for now.:icon_tup:

Nice NICE ports. Very well done I must say.


wait a minute........... no pics of housings? :icon_bs:









:001_005:

[FC3S Murray]

Dude...... I did a few 250 mile laps around CT to get my engine broken in in time for LimeRock. Would've made it two if we didn't warp those Apex Seals on the dyno I agree though, winter project, get on the fucking road! Summer's 1/2 over already.


I know I know! I try not to think about how much of summer is gone already. This little hic-up doesn't make it any easier. FUCK I wish I was just rich and didn't have to work full time.

wait a minute........... no pics of housings?
Haha, I tried to take a picture of the housings BUT the surfaces were so smooth and shiney that all I could get was pictures with a huge glare, hehehe.

Those things are nice bro. I hope the RA seals don't eat them up too much.

[13bpower]

After about 1 hour.....
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE012.jpg


What turbo are you runing.

[FC3S Murray]

Turbonetics 62-1

[TitaniumTT]

I know I know! I try not to think about how much of summer is gone already. This little hic-up doesn't make it any easier. FUCK I wish I was just rich and didn't have to work full time.


Haha, I tried to take a picture of the housings BUT the surfaces were so smooth and shiney that all I could get was pictures with a huge glare, hehehe.

Those things are nice bro. I hope the RA seals don't eat them up too much.

:rofl: Glad you like them. I still need to get to the effing PO and send out that vid. Also got something else I'm tossin' in the box that will make your rebuild a shitton easier.

The RA seals don't seem to beat up on the housings too much from what I hear. Especially if you're running premix too.... are you?w

Regarding the RA seals, do NOT use the green bottled gel type superglue. Two out of the 6 assist pieces broke off last night. Infuriating. I found some red bottled superglue with a brush applicator that seems to work wonders.

[FC3S Murray]

Good to know about the glue. Thanks man.

I am ONLY running pre-mix. I am thinking of putting the OMP set up back on, a little extra cash but will be worth it.

What is the best thing to clean the rotors one final time before wraping them up until stacking the motor? I was thinking just gasoline. To actually clean the irons the first time I was gonna use WD-40/ brake clean. WD-40 works great but am unsure if it leaves any harmful residue.

I used diesel back in the day for cleaning the rotors.

Thanks again for the video bro. I have probably a week and a half hold back waiting for this front iron. At LEAST 2 ground shipment cycles due to the fuckers weight.

[project86]

sean... just so you know.. my dd is soooooo much cooler than your fc hahaha lmao! im parkin her this weekend me thinks .. im not sure i have enough money to autox this weekend after i register and stuff. but man.. only problem is its gonna be an hour away and gettin time to work on it is gonna be tough tough tough. then i can start my own rebuild thread ::)

[FC3S Murray]

So...........Japan2la still hasn't shipped my iron to BDC since the hic-up last WED. :cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead:

[TitaniumTT]

Lame!!!!!!!!!!

[project86]

gay

[FC3S Murray]

So the iron got shipped yesterday. I have at least a two week wait now. shitty.

I am however starting to clean irons and small accessories. I wonder if I should just soak the irons in something like gas or simple green?

In regards to the rust in coolant jackets, some of those bastards are small enough where i cant get to them with wire brush let alone the dremel. My intermediate iron just has a small amount of surface rust(no major chunking). I am sure that is acceptable and can be left alone correct?

Sorry about the Q'S, just trying to negate what is overkill and what is acceptable.

OH, the small black rubber inserts on the corner seal eyelet..............needed or not?

[FC3S Murray]

So I did some more cleaning today. So far I have:
1 rotor cleaned
rear iron cleaned
Intermediate iron cleaned sort of...
corner seal eyelets and rubbers cleaned
oil control rings/springs cleaned
Rotor housings cleaned

Today when cleaning my intermediate in found some interesting pitting ion the water seal grooves. It was actually reversed pitting like mineral deposits of some sort. I used a apex seal and a dremel ss wire wheel brush to clean them. Now the pitting actually looks like pitting.

Not too much around the bottom or top of iron but seems to be more prevelant on the sides. I am not to impressed by the water jacket condition of these parts by Japan2La. Iron Side seal wear is VERY LITTLE, just can tell this iron was ripped off a static motor and not even cleaned.

I did take a ss brush and wheel to the jackets and got most of the rust off, I am just concerned about the unaccessable areas.
Brian mentioned something about a BOIL at a machine shop. What exactly do they use in the boil(no harmful chemicals)

Here is some picks of the pitting, IT LOOKS WORSE THEN IT ACTUALLY IS, very small depth pits.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE126.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE125.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE124.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE123.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE122.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE121.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/GARAGE120.jpg

[TitaniumTT]

I would consider using some Hylomar in those fireseals for longevity with that pitting........ anyone else have some input on that?

I dunno what they use when they Boil them..... but it never seems to hurt the old iron boiner motors.

[FC3S Murray]

I am already planning on using hylomar on the seals, mazdatrix reccomends it for every fire seal installation. I swear I almost am gonna just go NEW parts route down the road. I always find some bullshit falsified part condition by some "reputable sources."

I swear if I EVER open a shop or sell parts, INTEGRITY will always trump my pocket book!

[WE3RX7]

That pitting is more than likely from the motor sitting static for a while, probably from a Jspec motor that sat in a shipping yard for a while... it doesnt look too terrible though as Brian mentioned, a lil hylomar and good OE seals and you'll be set.

A friend of mine's shop has an acid dip "boiler" they use to wash blocks and heads, I'll have to ask him what they use to clean them as far as chemicals. I have some spare housings we could dip and just see what happens as they're junk anyway...

[classicauto]

Yeah I think that pitting will be alright. Maybe as an extreme measure you could mask up the face of the iron, and smear a little mylomar right in the seal groove to fill the pits, then the typical light coat on the fire seal and you should be fine.

I do see some pitting like that on a few irons i've used in the past, but generally not that much on one. Just like, a couple pits in one groove, and the rest is fine.

As for the boiler, the chemicals used can vary, but its generally just an industrial desgreaser thats super heated and sprayed on the parts in a dishwasher style cabinet. That pitting was definetely not caused by it :)

[RETed]

The pitting is caused by a combination of two things...
1) (Hot) coolant from the coolant passages promote corrosion.
2) (Hot and corrosive) gases from the combustion chambers.

It's normal.

It's important to get the grooves cleaned as much as you can.
I like to run a small, flat screwdriver in the grooves.
A larger jewelers screwdrivers work nicely here, but it hurts your fingers if you do this a lot.
The seals + sealant (Hylomar has been already mentioned) takes care of sealing very well.

As for "hot tanking", it's dunking the parts in a very hot solution of cleaning chemicals.
Whether you know it or not, most metals are POROUS.
If you don't believe me, torch the irons - you'll see oil seep out of the metal!
(The stainless steel "sleeve" on the rotor housing surfaces are notorious for this.)
The hot tanking cleans the oils and crap that have leeched into the metal itself.
This promotes better sealing with all the seals and sealants.
This is not necessary, but if you can do it, go for it.
Quick & dirty option is to shoot the irons down with BRAKE CLEANER (NOT carb cleaner, as carb cleaner still leaves a residue, while brake cleaner does not).


-Ted

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks for the info Ted.

I have access to a heavy duty parts washer that sprays turbine engine equipment up to 150*F with a chemical called citri-clean. Very potent chemical and is used on titanium aircraft engine parts, so I assume it won't hurt iron.

I knew I should be using brake clean. I have been using carb cleaner the last week and found residual gunk on the smooth iron surface.

[WE3RX7]

Not that its hard to find, but make sure you use non-chlorinated brake cleaner...

[TitaniumTT]

Quick & dirty option is to shoot the irons down with BRAKE CLEANER (NOT carb cleaner, as carb cleaner still leaves a residue, while brake cleaner does not).


-Ted

While that is true, and I should've mentioned that, sorry, I have found that carb clean left to soak for a few minutes does wonders at breaking up crap that brakeclean won't. Just what I've found. I believe it's gum-out??? that doesn't leave as much of a residue if any at all. I know it by sight, not by name.

I've found that old sideseals are some of the greatest cleaning tools around ;)

Not that its hard to find, but make sure you use non-chlorinated brake cleaner...

So much gentler on yourself than the clorinated stuff and cleans almost just as well.

[FC3S Murray]

So today I spent what felt like a LIFETIME clearancing side seals for both rotors this afternoon outside on my porch sipping on some beer.

The average clearance for the side seals is about.003, one is .004 and another is .0025 :)

I really tried to get .002 but my skills are sad and frankly I was on a time constraint. They are good enough for me.

I also finished cleaning up my Rotors(Kevin cleans them for ya but I double check), oil control rings and springs, E-Shaft, side seal springs and....my garage.

BDC recieved my front iron from Japan2la today and finished by late afternoon. SHould see it here HOPEFULLY fri or sat. The all in need to do is check the front casting and determine which o-ring/teflon/gasket set up I need and order from Mazdatrix asap.

Hopefully should stack it next week and back in the car by 2nd week of August.

****What brand was that super glue to use Brian? BTW i got your DVD's and syringe, thank you! That will come in handy with the petro.

[TitaniumTT]

No worries Sean, that syringe is awesome. It will get vaso into the side seal area ;)

It was super glue. It was in a red bottle, and it was NOT a gel. I cannot remember excately what it was called but I would remember it if I saw a pic of the bottle - sorry.

Those sideseal clearances are awesome by the way. Try to get a digital comp test BEFORE you start her up and then again after about a 1/2 hr run in time. I would also use slightly more 2-stroke oil for the first few hundred miles and don't rev her past 3500 for the first 100 miles either - as per RA.

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks Brian for the tips.

Well yesterday I finsihed cleaning all my small parts to include stat gears, thrust bearings, chain, ect ect

I did watch the mazdatrix video and it did have some helpful tips but in no way is a video manual(they even claim that it is not a manual on the dvd cover). BUT it did have some cool tricks and tips that I didn't know...for example lapping by hand, basically putting two of the irons on top of eachother with some valve grinding goo in between. Rotate for an hour or so and you are lapping pretty accurate. The machine is WAy faster but for anyone that is cheap and your iron wear is very small might be worth a try.

I also found some inspection material useful and helped identify my oil pump casing as bad. It had two scars on the inside. I have a shit load of extra pumps so I found a 2-2 pump in great shape and swapped the case. **I had no idea there were two pump types: 1-2 and 2-2, one has a thicker center oil journal while the other is half the thickness.


All I am waiting on now is the front iron. BDC said it looks in great shape and I should have it by sat or mon. I am gonna order some new OCR springs since mine are unidentifiable and for shits and giggles order some new side seal springs too.

[WE3RX7]

So today I spent what felt like a LIFETIME clearancing side seals for both rotors this afternoon outside on my porch sipping on some beer.


Did the clearances get worse as time went on?? Beer >= Rotor Clearancing :rofl:

[FC3S Murray]

Did the clearances get worse as time went on?? Beer >= Rotor Clearancing :rofl:

haha...actually, I started worse and got into the "zone" when my buzz kicked in. The constant sound of grind..grind..grind on the stone was hypnotizing yet soothing:)

Quick question guys, I was told it would be wise to order a few different size spacers for the front assembly stack just incase my freeplay is larger then factory spec. I have the K spacer right now BUT mazdatrix doesn't even show the K spacer not to mention all the letter spacers are for the 3rd gen front end? HMM?

Also, what do you consider a bad thrust washer plate? I have a small spot on the thrust plate that shows maybe 4 small thrust bearing indents fron the needle bearings. Not deep by any means but Mazdatrix recommends replacing the bearings, washer plate and main bearing plate. My main bearing plate looks fine with no "notches".

[WE3RX7]

Those parts aren't overly expensive. Besides the time it'll take to get them shipped to you - I would go ahead and replace them. Do you need to? Probably not - I've resused them before with similar conditioning as you mentioned without any ill results but I know on all my builds moving forward I will probably just put new ones in since they're cheap enough.

[TitaniumTT]

haha...actually, I started worse and got into the "zone" when my buzz kicked in. The constant sound of grind..grind..grind on the stone was hypnotizing yet soothing:)

Quick question guys, I was told it would be wise to order a few different size spacers for the front assembly stack just incase my freeplay is larger then factory spec. I have the K spacer right now BUT mazdatrix doesn't even show the K spacer not to mention all the letter spacers are for the 3rd gen front end? HMM?

Also, what do you consider a bad thrust washer plate? I have a small spot on the thrust plate that shows maybe 4 small thrust bearing indents fron the needle bearings. Not deep by any means but Mazdatrix recommends replacing the bearings, washer plate and main bearing plate. My main bearing plate looks fine with no "notches".

I agree, I would replace them, not to expensive but it may lead to some issues setting the endfloat. Bad endfloat = bad timing, certainly not but much but it is something that physically happens.

I've never seen a "K" spacer, maybe a "C", or an "A"? I've got an "E" sitting on my wall JIC the ones that I have are too short I can just machine it down but hand to fit.

Machining it down by hand consists of taking a piece of 320g DA paper and sticking it on my SS work bench and sanding it down in a figure 8 motion while rotating it, flipping sides, constantly checking it with the micrometer, etc etc etc.

What other tips did the MT vid have? I'm a little intrigued.

[FC3S Murray]

Other tips were pretty common shit that I have heard of, for example gluing the apex seal end piece offset so the glue breaks upon torque. Another was the reason for the rubber center on the tension bolt that runs down the exsht port side which is made for vibration dampening. The rest was assembly preferences that included halomar application, rtv sealeant to front and main seals, End float spacer tricks which included flipping them around to increase or decrease endplay. HONESTLY for 29.00 dollars it is worth it if you never have put an engine together BUT most of these tips I have read on the forums or are available there. Kyle Mohan did a great job narrating the DVD btw.

I did end up replacing the thrust washers, bearings and bearing plate. total cost was like 68.00, not bad considering it elimanates the next possible failure :) :)

update soon

[project86]

SEAN just in case you dont check the montana section in the "other forum" text me about a pot luck that should be going on next sunday at the "other" kyle's house.. but you should read the post anyway

[FC3S Murray]

Update:

I have everything in and cleaned. I WAS going to build on Tuesday BUT I ordered a twin EGT set up that I will get Monday afternoon. I have decided to wait until I get my exhst mani drilled and taped before I get the motor in.

I will have monday, tues and wed off the week of the 17th. IF i actually get the EGT probes in on Monday and have the mani drilled and tapped by Tuesday I might just take Thurs and Friday off.

Regardless I am ready to build and have watched so many damn rebuild vids/ read the FSM I can build this fucker in my sleep.


Hopefully the break in will not be too time consuming. I think I will average 60-80 miles a day. More on the weekends.

[FC3S Murray]

SHIT, Do I need to get a different front counter weight now that I actually have 8.5:1 rotors instead of the S4 9.4:1 rotors?

I cant remember if I need a different one OR if S4 and S5 was the only difference between all models...

[FC3S Murray]

Nevermind, I know what to look for. My S4 NA rotors ARE indeed s4 because of the maching process (cast opposed to S5 milled) in the recessed bevel. So I can use the front counter weight becasue my TII rotors are the same. You keep the counter wieghts SERIES specific.

........:willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

[TitaniumTT]

Yup.

So you start stacking yet?

For breakin, here's what I usually do

Start and let her idle for 15 minutes before I rev her a little. And at that point it's just a few slow blips to 2k or so. After a 1/2 of run time I shut her down. I repeat that the next day but a few blips to 3k. Pull the plugs and clean them off.

Start driving. For miles 0-100 I keep the revs below 3500 and yes it is difficult
101-200 - 4500rpm
210-300 - 5500 rpm - Change oil
301-400 - 6000 rpm
401-500 - 6500 rpm
501-600 - 7000rpm
601-700 - start adding boost but keeping it to a bare minimum - again, difficult.
700+ miles - dyno.

This should entail at least 8+ heat cycles as well and a comp test before the dyno. Good luck bro, keep us updated.

[WE3RX7]

Lol... your breakin cycle is vastly different then mine. Perhaps this is why I'm on engine #4....

[TitaniumTT]

Perhaps you should share.......... BTW - I'm on engine #4 as well.

[EJayCe996]

Start driving. For miles 0-100 I keep the revs below 3500 and yes it is difficult


When I helped my friend finish up his "stroked" SR20det (well I guess its an SR22det now technically) he ends up calling me about 2 days after driving it around for break in and says. "Hey... I kinda did something bad" and in typical a typical fashion, similar to reading a TTT story where the IMPORTANT information is left out til the end, my heart sank thinking the worst with the engine. Then he says "I couldn't help it and took it to 6k once, do you think it will be okay?" and I let out a sigh and told him he's good but don't do it again. :rofl:

[FC3S Murray]

Alright....motor is stacked! Had a buddy assist yesterday and besides a couple hic-ups it went smooth for being my first solo build.

Had a couple corner peices break the super glue due to very small corner seal eyelet mis-alignment(to much petro and rotating the rotor once placed in the housing to check for binding ended up probably moving the eyelet ever so slightly). I DO HAVE TO SAY that Halomar is more of a bitch to apply then the pet jelly. I got a hang of applying the halomar after the intermediate housing but I think I got a tube of it that was too thick.

Only thing I started to doubt myself on AFTER it was stacked was if I inserted the small apex seal srings in correctly. I did long springs first, then slid the apex/spring partailly down and then put the small spring in until it hit the bottom notch of apex seal. I used a flat tip jewelers screw driver to push the small spring down to ensure it was on the notch. Anyway, I don't know why I started to doubt myself BUT I had to get a dead rotor and rotor housing and put in a spare apex seal with spring to see what installing the small spring WRONG was like. Of course it went a hell of a lot deeper down if you missed the notch and overall reassured me I did it right.
I also have 6 audibly even pulses when I spin the motor so that was reasurring.

I am a pussy and worry too much anyhow.


Brian, break in seems short compared to the 1500 mile recommendation. :)


Thanks for the help Kyle!

Update soon

[WE3RX7]

My breakin period was always just keep it out of boost up to 4K RPM for the first 100 miles, varying the engine speed (no highways, all back roads, stop and go). Pretty boring part. Then same procedure but revving to 6K until 500 miles (it would sometimes hit small amounts of boost, less than 2psi). After 500 miles I let it boost 6-8psi to 6K RPM. Then from 500 to 1000 miles I keep the boost at 6-8 but take it to 8K RPM... after that its fair game.

Proceding all of that though I would typically have already let the engine run/stop about 4 or 5 times. The initial startup I let it run for a min of 30 minutes provided no issues come up (fuel leaks, coolant leaks, vac leaks etc)...

So my procedure is a little more "risky" I suppose... but then again, I know guys who slap motors together and beat the snot out of them within the first 100 miles, so who knows... it all depends I guess.

[FC3S Murray]

So I ended up measuring my endplay tonight. Came out to a perfect .002

I also put on my front cover & accessories, oil pan and started to fit my EGT probes. I had my machine shop at work drill and tap my HKS cast mani so all I need to do now is route the wiring and figure out a place for my gauges.

Engine install starts on Monday and should be on the road tues(most likely sooner.....wife HATES me right now since I sneek into the garage whenever she turns her back:))

I will post pics soon.

[TitaniumTT]

Sweet! Nice going Sean, glad to hear everything worked out.

What are you using for probes/gauges?

And don't worry to much about the wife, they get over it quick..... unless you make the mistake that I did and make a smartass remark like, "well hun, until they figure out a way to make tailpipes warm moist and inviting, I'll still need you for something." :rofl: Best thing to do is encourage a few.... ok ALOT of "girls nights out." Weekends away visiting the in-laws wroks well for 7 progress too. Stock up on the redull and rock 36 hour day :icon_tup:

[project86]

[QUOTE=

"well hun, until they figure out a way to make tailpipes warm moist and inviting, I'll still need you for something." :rofl: QUOTE]

hahaha thats hilarious. it went together pretty nicely if i do say so myself. the first rotor we put in was a little bitch though. sean ill be there monday, i asked for it off so i could be there for some of it at least.

[batmanfc]

Looks awesome. Is that a miata battery in the current setup pic?

[FC3S Murray]

Well I dropped the motor in yesterday and routed the turbo/dp/exhaust system. Also routes my EGT leads and re-wrapped my HKS mani. I am surprised how much the DEI Ceramic rattle can held up. No flaking what so ever.

Really all I have left is the UIM, LIM and fuels set up. Add some fluids and start her up. However I can not find a damn place to mount these egt gauges! it is killing me. :)

Brian, you mentioned I should do a comp test before I let it run then one after an hour correct?

I am most likely going to start her on Sunday so I will try to get it on video. I am a little nervous for the comp test but if it is low due to my parinoia about the apex seal spring installation then I will just open her up and stack again(hope not).

[FC3S Murray]

Looks awesome. Is that a miata battery in the current setup pic?

No just a Optima red top

[TitaniumTT]

Really all I have left is the UIM, LIM and fuels set up. Add some fluids and start her up. However I can not find a damn place to mount these egt gauges! it is killing me. :)

Brian, you mentioned I should do a comp test before I let it run then one after an hour correct?

I am most likely going to start her on Sunday so I will try to get it on video. I am a little nervous for the comp test but if it is low due to my parinoia about the apex seal spring installation then I will just open her up and stack again(hope not).

Mount 'em like I mounted my extra three gauges, do away with the idiot lights.

More just for curiousity. If there was anything that went wrong during the assembly - pinched side seal, apex seal, bad springs, missing a cornerseal, something horrendous like that, it'll show up in the first comp test and MAYBE you'll be able to catch it before it does real damamge but if a side seal slipped out of place, the damage was probably done with the keg was torqued. Just things to make you more paranoid. If you heard 3 clean even whooshes and the engine spun freely, you really have nothing to be worried about. It's more for curiosity. In my case, Dave and I are worried about me overoiling the engine with the OMP and a bit of premix in the gas. So my comp tests are just to make sure that the comp doesn't fall off from over oiling.

Like I said Sean, if you heard some even pulses and the motor spun pretty freely by hand, stop being paranoid, clean the sand out, get some douche and go to town ;)

[WE3RX7]

All will be fine - you would know by now if you installed anything horribly wrong.

[project86]

i was there helpin him put it all together and when he spun it sounded good. im excited for this.. oh boy

[FC3S Murray]

Hey all! Well I got everything tied up tonight. All fliuds are in and she is pretty much ready for start up. I WOULD HAVE started it tonight but unfortunately my daughter's room is right above the garage and I didn't want to smoke her out. :) I could have dropped the FC to the ground and wheeled it outside but I like to keep it on jack stands for the first start up for the ease of inspecting and accessing leaks if I need to lay on the creeper for.

I also calibrated my WB o2 with my datalogit to be within .01 of my actual xd-16 gauge. I did a trick that Chuck Westbrook has in his notes that includes a jar, syran wrap, propane tourch and a straw.

As for those fucking EGT gauges I am still undecided. I think for now they will live in the glove box until I can lay some new carbon fiber so I can re-arrange my center console layout.

Mount 'em like I mounted my extra three gauges, do away with the idiot lights
I like the two gauge set up now becasue I can still see my clock from my seat:rofl:

All will be fine - you would know by now if you installed anything horribly wrong.
I know I have finally just convinced myself it is fine. It is what it is.

i was there helpin him put it all together and when he spun it sounded good. im excited for this.. oh boy
Thanks again bro for being there for the whole thing. Having your set of eyes was good not to mention u spotting that apex seal spring in the coolant passage was a HUGE time saver. I know we heard it but I never saw it.

[need RX7]

I bet the anticipation is killing you. :rofl:


I also calibrated my WB o2 with my datalogit to be within .01 of my actual xd-16 gauge. I did a trick that Chuck Westbrook has in his notes that includes a jar, syran wrap, propane tourch and a straw.


:o11: You must elaborate

[FC3S Murray]

Basically what you do with the WB o2 calibration is: get a mason jar and put the o2 sensor in with the tip of your propane torch. Wrap the SOB in a ton of syran wrap and turn your IGN on to heat up your o2 sensor. Then once the sensor is hot, turn on the propane torch until the gauge reads 9.0 AFR or whatever. What I wanted to tune for was 11.0 AFR and I wanted my datalogit to read 100% correct with my gauge.

So when I turned the propane on my reading skyrocketed to 9.0 AFR. The straw is inserted and you blow a little air into the sealed jar until you reach 11.0(or what ever you want your WOT AFR to be). The you go into you tuning software and adjust your voltage to AFR correlation.

my factory innovative set up was supposed to be 0-5v:9-15.99AFR. I had to cahnge it to 0-5v: 9.2-15.99AFR to get my logs from my datalogit correct with my xd-16 gauge.

Anyhow, Start up happens tonight!!! Stay tuned!

[Whizbang]

freakn' macgyver

[JShiz]

SO....? the anticipation is killin me.

[FC3S Murray]

Alright guys.

She started up with ease. Primed the oil system to 40psi and then gave her fuel. Took a couple turns and then she finally started. I needed to re-adjust my cold start/fuel ratio and all in all she idled around 1k with a 11.7 AFR.

I had a nice 1-2-3 pulse coming from the exhaust. MY VACCUUM was at -13 on my boost controller.

SOO..then it took forever to warm up to 80*C. Once it got there she keep climbing and climbing and no thermostat was opening by 86* C! I immediately shut the car off and hear my boil over resivoir going ape shit. A few seconds later after I know something is seriously wrong, I turn on my ignition again to see what my water-thermo sensor log is reading and it says 115*C!!

I scream FUCKKKKK. I say, "it's toast, its fucking toast!" Well one one my buddies pops the resivoir cap and a huge burp of air comes out. I check my water temp gauge again(about 45 seconds later) and it is down to 96*C within that 1 minute time frame.

So I THOUGHT the system was burped 100% but obviously not. By now I am thinking the motor is fucked. I mean the fucking gauge read 115*C !! I am sick to my stomach by now.

So my buddies are like "well you have a floor fan blowing on it, your oil temps were only 165*F and you were at idle only (no revs) and really the temp was most likely steam temp from the enourmous air bubble since the temp dropped dramatically from when it "burped", so it will be fine, yeah yeah fine..
..it will be fine..?.."

I on the other hand am thinking of Brians story and am convinced that I have either fucked the rotor housings or definately have a stuck side seal now and again am just PISSED..devasted actually.

So I started her up again after adding about a qauter jug of coolant. I am expecting to see a lower vacuum and hear a sparatic pulse from my exhaust........

She starts up fine.....I have 3 perfectly audible pulses- brap-.brap-.brap and my vacuum was at -14. I got more vacuum!?!

So I am sitting there just kinda confused and still feeling unsettled. I let it idle for an hour and no changes in pulses or vacuum. Steady -14 the whole way. I do have a very small oil leak coming from my front pulley bolts that is flinging VERY VERY small droplets of oil everywhere. I will deal with that later.


I don't know what to think guys. She shows no sign of overheat conditions and I have no white smoke, no un-even pulses and a higher vacuum.


I guess all I can do is drive her tomorrow for a 100 miles and check my compression.

Is my buddies thinking right and can the motor take a small burst of heat like that. There really was no stress on the motor oil temp wise or even heat saturation for that matter. i don't know..

I am still very sick to my stomcah from the whole situation partly because I didn't bleed it all the way and that was a FUCKING high temp at that water thermo sensor.

Anyone have any other conditions I should look for that are related to overheating?

She runs great but MAN what a cluster. :o10:

[RETed]

Localized hot spot...no big deal.
If the motor ate the water seals, you would've seen water out your tailpipe and temps start to shoot up again.

I've done it before in my modified coolant flush - very controversial.

Just because you see the water temps peg doesn't mean the motor is automatically goners.


-Ted

[FC3S Murray]

Well it has been a little over an hour and a half since I shut her down and after doing a little more research on overheat conditons I went back down and looked for culprits of fucked water seals. I had NO bubbles in my radiator and when I started her up again WITH my garage door close(to see smoke better) I had absolutely no white smoke on start up.

The motors water temp at start up was 56* C, so if I had fucked a water seal that would have bleed into the combustion chamber by now.....right? :)

I am a little comforted now and I also read a couple lucky stories on the RX&club with guys having the exact same secnario and one dude actually hit 250* F and had no issues.
LETS JUST HOPE.

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks TED, I am sweating over this fuck up but think it is OK.

My water temps stayed at a cool 81*C the whole idle time after the incident btw.

[FC3S Murray]

Well just fixed the front pulley e-shaft bolt oil leak. Had a buddy stop by(project 86) because he helped build it and he wanted to hear it pur and I ended up putting him to work.:rofl: I had him hold the clutch in while I removed the front pulley bolt to apply some rtv to the o-ring and copper washer face.

Started her up again about 1/2 hour later and ZERO white smoke and no oil spitting all over my engine bay. I am high off of gas fumes.

Need sleep......I must have spent an hour at least tonight dousching out the sand from my vag after the scare. :)

[need RX7]

Sounds like a pretty scary situation. I'm glad it all worked out though :icon_tup:.

[MaczPayne]

Close call heh. When I first got my rebuild running, temps were around 95-98C for the first few days of driving, until I got all the bubbles out. Now it's solid at 82C :)

[FC3S Murray]

Now it's solid at 82C :)

Yep, That is the water temp I had the last three hours of driving her. Put on a whopping 32 miles in city. Had to stop for lunch too though.

As for my intial tune from my last motor it is pretty damn close. I was a little lean on cruise but all-in-all it was the same AFR's driving aroound town I had with the last motor. I would love to get my damn idle at least above 12 insead of this 11.5 BS. Damn PFC.

My vacuum also got better just after today, now I am seeing -15 at idle.
Gonna wash her tonight and will have some video and pics up of her running.

She feels great too btw in regards to throttle response and just power to 3000 rpm(didn't go any higher).

Gave her a little wash this evening too with help from my little helper

[project86]

great day all in all!

[TitaniumTT]

Hey Sean, yeah man, Ted's right, I wouldn't sweat it at all. The EXACT same thing happened to me with engine #3. Took forever to get to 180* then SKYROCKETED to 210 with me hosing the piss out of the rad but the bubble was most likely caught in the WP which means no circulation. Oil temps were like 150's which is a big cooling factor in our motor's. I wouldn't sweat it at all. Just be easy with the girl ;)

As for the more vac, well, she broke in a little bit. I need to find the conversion sheet for MAP -> "hg, it's fricken killing me. I'm seeing high 40-low 50's vac. My Autometer boost gauge I know is a little off from the Motec so I just go off the Motec.... anyone know the conversions?

Still Love that color & damn, you put everyone to work eh?

[project86]

haha sean i dont think you could have found a better helper! she s gonna be able to tune the damn thing!

[MaczPayne]

-15" vac is just about right, what's your idle? Mine is humming at around 16 and sometimes 17" at 800RPM since I finished the break-in

[TitaniumTT]

I want to see 19". What's that in kpa damnit?

[FC3S Murray]

My idle is @ 998 RPM.

I am intrigued as well in regards to a conversion table.

[MaczPayne]

www.onlineconversion.com has all the conversions you can think of

19" Hg = 64.341 kpa

15" Hg = 50.795 kpa

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks Max.

I took it out for about two hours last night and put another 52 miles on her. Here in Great Falls 52 miles in city is a shit load of drving and punching your kidneys.

I CANT stand people who feel the need to fuck with me when I am driving. I no shit had about 6 cars/trucks toy with me. All I would do is smile and if they asked why no go I would just say "break in". This old ass Nova kept messing with me until I finally told him to piss off and come see me in a month. He laughed and was actually cordial after the fact. He just put a 383 stoker in it and just got done breaking in the motor.
I am seriously about to go cray with my idle AFR. I dont want to do negative inj lag to get my idle leaner BUT if I have to I will. Better now before any major tuning happens.
Is negative lag bad for your injectors? I know it shouldn't effect duty cycle but can't remember what the down side is.

I do have to say I love how my motor sounds at idle. Between the intake and exhaust ports it has a awesome almost lobe sound, kinda like an aggressive cam on a piston motor. Good stuff.

Only other "issue" right now is my damn NAPA high dollar belts are noisy, really noisy. Even with belt dressing, adjusting tension and doing the crayon trick they still make noise. I might have to go O'rielly cheapies

[TitaniumTT]

www.onlineconversion.com has all the conversions you can think of

19" Hg = 64.341 kpa

15" Hg = 50.795 kpa

Hey Johnson, I've used that site alot but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The less kpa you have, the more vac you pull. 100 kpa = 1 bar = 0 vac, 0 kpa should = perfect vac or about 30", so what are we missing here?

Thanks Max.

I took it out for about two hours last night and put another 52 miles on her. Here in Great Falls 52 miles in city is a shit load of drving and punching your kidneys.

I CANT stand people who feel the need to fuck with me when I am driving. I no shit had about 6 cars/trucks toy with me. All I would do is smile and if they asked why no go I would just say "break in". This old ass Nova kept messing with me until I finally told him to piss off and come see me in a month. He laughed and was actually cordial after the fact. He just put a 383 stoker in it and just got done breaking in the motor. Honestly it was loud and not fast at all.

I am seriously about to go cray with my idle AFR. I dont want to do negative inj lag to get my idle leaner BUT if I have to I will. Better now before any major tuning happens.
Is negative lag bad for your injectors? I know it shouldn't effect duty cycle but can't remember what the down side is.

I do have to say I love how my motor sounds at idle. Between the intake and exhaust ports it has a awesome almost lobe sound, kinda like an aggressive cam on a piston motor. Good stuff.

Only other "issue" right now is my damn NAPA high dollar belts are noisy, really noisy. Even with belt dressing, adjusting tension and doing the crayon trick they still make noise. I might have to go O'rielly cheapies

Crayon trick?

[FC3S Murray]

Crayon trick?

Yeah, buddy told me to line the outside of the belts with crayon. Actually last night the belts were quite by the end of the drive. Maybe the belts just required a little break in themselves.

More miles added last night. My EGT temps are a great tool for tuning cruise. My damn rear rotor seems to burn a little hotter even with 2% more fuel to the rear injectors. I almost wonder if that damn HKS cast mani is just the problem. The runners are not equal so maybe that plays a role in temperture recording(however the probes are equal distance from mani inlet AND equal depth).

[antman0408]

[QUOTE=TitaniumTT;94667]Hey Johnson, I've used that site alot but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The less kpa you have, the more vac you pull. 100 kpa = 1 bar = 0 vac, 0 kpa should = perfect vac or about 30", so what are we missing here?
[QUOTE]

Vacuum is rated at inches of mercury, so the higher the vacuum, the higher the kpa value.
100 kpa = 1 bar = almost 30" of mercury in vacuum
0 kpa = 0" of mercury = no vacuum

[MaczPayne]

Hey Johnson, I've used that site alot but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The less kpa you have, the more vac you pull. 100 kpa = 1 bar = 0 vac, 0 kpa should = perfect vac or about 30", so what are we missing here?



This is very tricky to explain. I've probably typed and deleted a whole bunch of sentences just because they sound confusing.

"The less kpa you have, the more vac you pull." This is true, only if 0 is perfect vacuum, and any value above that is pressure. What's missing is the idea of reference zeros. Our boost gauges put the reference at atmospheric pressure (1bar, 100kpa, 14.5psi). Below that point is vacuum, usually measured in inches of mercury, for standard units. 30" Hg = 0psi absolute = 0kpa absolute = -14.5psi = -100kpa = -1 bar.

You might be wondering, "why is 30" Hg positive then?" I believe the reason for that is units for above atmospheric pressures are different. If boost read in " Hg, vacuum would then read in - " Hg. Also the generally accepted standard unit for vacuum is inches of Mercury, which is why negative signs are neglected.

My boost controller reads in psi, so in vacuum, I'm somewhere around -7.3 psi, for example.

Hope this explanation helps. I can help clarify any other details if you so inquire. I am most likely still editing this as you read, heh.

[FC3S Murray]

Shit my boost controller reads -15 now at idle. Max, yours is -7.3 at partial throttle then??

[TitaniumTT]

I understand what you're saying. Basically need to reference out the difference between mani pressure and atmosphere right?

So then, how would one go about getting the "standard" "hg from a kpa reading? I know there is a descrepancy between my Motec and autometer gauge. But when the Motec reads 50 kpa, the AM says ~14-15"hg. 10 kpa = ~25"hg. So, how does one go about converting the kpa reading to the standard "hg?

[FC3S Murray]

Check this link out brian: http://www.sensorsone.co.uk/pressure-units-conversion.html
* use the right hand side bar


Does anyone know off the top of there head if you decide to use negative lag on your primary injectors for the PFC, would you need to make you secondary injs negative too?
I changed my primaries to a -.30 last night and got my idle to about 12.9. I had to obviously re-tune my map but it was already pretty linear, all it needed was on average 20% more fuel across the board. PLUS I got my light throttle to finally read a LEAN AFR instead of always pegging 11.5afr, WOOT WOOT!!

[MaczPayne]

Shit my boost controller reads -15 now at idle. Max, yours is -7.3 at partial throttle then??

is -15 in inches of mercury? It cannot be psi since complete vacuum on earth is -14.5psi. My idle is -7.3psi, or -15 in Hg

I understand what you're saying. Basically need to reference out the difference between mani pressure and atmosphere right?

So then, how would one go about getting the "standard" "hg from a kpa reading? I know there is a descrepancy between my Motec and autometer gauge. But when the Motec reads 50 kpa, the AM says ~14-15"hg. 10 kpa = ~25"hg. So, how does one go about converting the kpa reading to the standard "hg?

What units does the Motec show when you are in boost? Is it still kpa? Does the kpa value decrease when you open the throttle?

If the reading is kpa in boost:
The Motec most likely references absolute pressure. So all you have to do is a simple subtraction. Atmospheric pressure is 14.5psi, or 100kpa. Since the Motec reads 50kpa at idle, 100kpa(atmospheric) - 50kpa(gauge) = 50kpa (your vacuum), which is also equal to 14.764" Hg. Pretty smack dab where your AM reads!

[TitaniumTT]

Yes, it reads in kpa. 175kpa = roughly 10-11pounds of boost, becuase were subtracting the "reference" atmosphere. So, for example this morning she was idling and reading ~45-40 kpa, subtracting the "reference" gives us 55-60 kpa or 16-18 "hg as our gauges read it. Am I finally right? Can I stop cutting myself now?

[MaczPayne]

Indeed, Brian, you've got it! You can stop cutting yourself, haha! I would pop open beers for us if I were there!

[FC3S Murray]

Update: I ended up going back to my old map set up and original inj lag settings. The negative lag was nice at idle but was causing a lot of issues. It would sparatically fall to extremly lean idle conditions for no reason, even after I map sure my inj firing MS and duty % were linear. EVen my base map idel area was linear to ensure no pulsing idle or abnormalities.

My idle with negative lag was around 12.3/12.1
With my orignal map with NO lag my idle AFR jumps from 11.2-11.5

I REALLY dont like the idle that rich because I know it will foul plugs and it makes my idle sound very "brap brap brap" ish. With negative lag the idle sound was a smooth pur.

my problem going excessivly rich at light throttle in cruise is fixed now becasue I just had some high numbers in my p2, p3 areas(You dont need to lower them much to get them lean when the base map inj reading is like .620 :))

I went out and took some pics yesterday before a three hour tune in 95 degree weather WITHOUT A/C. Sucked balls! I really wish I didnt remove that back in the day when I was trying to squeeze out as much power as possible from the stock set up lol.


http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/Vegas09067.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/Vegas09089.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/Vegas09116.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/Vegas09072.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/engine001.jpg

EGT set up

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/engine002.jpg

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/engine003.jpg

I plan on moving the EGT gauges to my center consule this winter..
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/Vegas09131.jpg

[FC3S Murray]

Video

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/th_Vegas09201.jpg (http://s721.photobucket.com/albums/ww213/FC3SMurray/?action=view&current=Vegas09201.flv)

[WE3RX7]

Awesome ride man... I'm glad its all working out for you. That blue makes me want to get my FC on the road all the sooner.... I know its not the same, but something about blue FCs... mmmmmm...

[FC3S Murray]

Awesome ride man... I'm glad its all working out for you. That blue makes me want to get my FC on the road all the sooner.... I know its not the same, but something about blue FCs... mmmmmm...

Thank you bro! I like blue as well, it brings the lines of the car out very well.

[project86]

Fantastic Sean! yeah that 95 day was kinda wierd. how many miles now?

[FC3S Murray]

157 mile now bro. Wish I could be there to pull the motor with ya tonight. bummer

[MaczPayne]

Mmmm. Sounds good!

[classicauto]

seck-say

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks for the kind words guys. I have about 289 on the motor now. This is gonna take a while BUT will be worth it.

[TitaniumTT]

Drive more ;) It's a combo of miles and heat cycles. Drive like 75 miles a day and you'll be real broken in in about 1.5-2 weeks ;)

[project86]

is highway driving out of the question

[TitaniumTT]

Not at all. Laura actually rec's that you keep the rev's under 3500 for the first hour or so. I call it 100 miles. The problem with highway driving is you need to be conscience about varying the rev's. I'll drop a gear or two and accelerate, decel, accel, decel, get off the highway and drive a few backroads for a little bit, get back on the highway etc etc etc. I've actually got 100 miles of that to do tonight and then again on Thurs probm but I'm planning on having 1000 miles logged before I hit the dyno this time and alot of little things worked out, tip-in being the biggest pain in my ass right now.

[FC3S Murray]

Tip-in is my problem too! I fucking hate driveability issues

[project86]

noob moment... tip in?

[TitaniumTT]

Accel enrichment, when you're cruising around at perfect Lambda and you hit the gas the in-rush of air requires more fuel than the map allows for. The ECU injects extra fuel and then backs it out over time. The Motec has
Accel Clamp - the max amount of addition fuel
Accel Clamp Comp - comp's the max amount based on a 3D table
Accel Decay - how fast it pulls the additional fuel out of the enrichment
Accel Enrichment Sensitivity - how much at a certain load vs rpm that it injects.
On top of that there is the Accel threshold - at which point (usually unit change/sec) does the ECU recognize that you are trying to accelerate and also various filters. I spent ALOT of time tonight and got the low rpm and VERY light tip ins pretty damn good. But what I ended up fucking up was the mash the gas tip in. Now she'll hit .65 L and buck like crazy. I ended up putting to much sensitivity in which worked for the higher throttle but did nothing for the light tips so I changed the threshold and got the lights great but the hard hits go too pig rich becuase now it's reacting much faster..... ah the joys. God bless the Motec software and the datalogging..... that shit is SICK

[FC3S Murray]

DAMN!! I hate v-band clamps...my fucking clamp is loose and now I can not for the life of me get the fucker bck on without it leaking!!

Gonna try my old one since I just broke my new on with a 1/2 inch ratchet. :)


..........EDIT that. I just found a hairline crack on the inside diameter of the DP where to flange angles up to mate againt the turbo. Looks like there is enough room to have someone weld it without intruding on the flanges mating surfaces.

always something......

[TitaniumTT]

Nice find. Isn't it ALWAYS something? I think I'm going to buy an Insight...................................... Not enough torque to EVER have a problem with ANYTHING

:rofl:

[FC3S Murray]

we dont even have enough torque...lol lol lol

[FC3S Murray]

Check it out......I LOVE the color... the bastard!:);) PP Ports must be fun. MAN!, that has got to be Electron Blue! I am gonna start telling people at work that I Slat Flat'ed my FC.

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009/08/19/car-feature-gt-gt-the-dandy-tanaka-bonneville-rocket.aspx

[project86]

um... i think that guy stole your car sean. might wanna go double check the garage.

[FC3S Murray]

update:

So I have 577 miles on the motor and have cured my dreaded idle woes. When I was assembling the motor I remembered to line up the main pulley with the 5*atdc mark and stab my CAS with the dot aligned to the gear.

Well since start up I have had a good idle but it was very rich 11.1:1 AFR and was a bit lumpy and sparatic. So after messing with some negative lag to day and just getting frustrated I remebered I never put a timing light on the motor(it was stabbed correctly, top off the CAS and thumb on the internal wheel). Well once I got my idle down to 750rpm my timing was at a whopping 10-12*btdc.:cuss:

So I pulled the CAS after I lined the pully back up at 5*atdc and the front cover pin. re-stabbed the CAS and started her up. smooth as butter and is at a perfect 5*atdc @ 750rpm. I raised the idle back up to 950rpm and my idle AFR went to 12.4:1

Much happier and glad I didn't go negative lag. re-tuning the map would have blowed and been a major waste of time last year.



Now as for my comp test it was shaky. I used a piston tester that is brand new from my craftsman professional series kit.

BOTH front and rear rotors had 3 DEAD EVEN pulses at 50 psi each

When I got to the accumulative PSI reading on each rotor I was worried at first...

Front was 95 psi
Rear was 88/90 psi

I know that I want 115+ and after talking to some pro's I need to do this @ 1500/2000 miles. :) I feel like an idiot BUT for some reason I figured compression would be damn near close to high numbers at 577 miles(some have stated it would). I will wait till then(maybe do another at 1000 miles for shits and giggles).


On another note I recieved the "Street Rotary" book in the mail today and am very impressed. Much more informative then the "Rotary Performance" novel that came out some time ago.

One thing that confuses me is on the pre-mix section where the book states that "most experts recommend 1 ounce of pre-mix oil to 1 gallon". Meanwhile my Idemitsu pre-mix bottle states that I use 1/2 ounce per 1 gallon.

I am not running my OMP and would like to hear some input on this. Should I stick with 1/2 ounce until my breakin is done THEN go to 1 ounce per gallon?

***side note: Racing Beat reccomends 4 ounces per gallon on 500HP+ rotaries:o11::o11:

NEXT ON THE TO DO list is to make some ducting to my oil cooler. My oil temps when cruising around town stabilize at 182* F. I dont like that temp BUT am unsure if that is excessivley high( I would perfer 160* F). I should point out that when I ran synthetic the temps went to about 175* F constant.

[project86]

sean i think for the comp text that since youre using a piston comp tester that there are some pieces in there that need to come out to get a proper reading on a rotary. the other kyle and i were talkin about it. just a quick thought. :)

[TitaniumTT]

Sean, nice catch on the timing. How is it that you have 577 miles and I have 2200? And in that time I pulled and half rebuilt a motor? You're slacking my friend :rofl:

For the comp - I made 100-110 psi with those housings before the Goodyear fiasco. That day she made 90-100. After a trip to DGRR and back the comp climbed back to 113. I think she needs more miles, especially with used housings.

Pre-mix - I would listen to Idemitsu, actually I sorta am. I've spoken to a bunch of people who have followed thier rec's and have had nothing but great results. Personally, I'm running ~1/4oz per gal (502:1) in the tank and then the OMP injecting the same Idemitsu. It comes out to be ~1/2oz+ per gallon (256- :1) especially when I'm hard on it. Running @ 1 oz/gal (128:1) is a good thing to do if you're pretty spirited and not using the greatest pre-mix. 4oz/gal (32:1) is just silly IMHO. Marine O/B's run all day long variably between 50:1 and 200:1. I dare say that the loads that are placed on the main bearings, rod pins, and piston rings etc etc etc are FAR more than what an apex/side/corner seal will ever see. Personally if I wasn't using my setup, I would be @ Idemitsu's rec @ 256:1.

Also, think about how much sump oil that a rotary burns. These are pretty crude numbers but hear me out. A quart every 3000 miles is "normal," so lets just say that you're burning a qt every 1,000 miles. Ok, so you're using 32 oz of oil every 1000 miles. How much gas are you using? How about 15mpg? Ok, so in 1000 miles you're burning 66.67 gallons of gas. 66.67 gals = 8533 ozs. So that equates to 266:1 of SUMP oil on "average"

The funny thing is I didn't even plan that out by working numbers backwards.

If anything Sean, I would run 128:1 during the breakin. After breakin's and dyno's are done with, I would reduce it to 256:1 or thier rec'd 1/2 oz/gal.

[FC3S Murray]

"If anything Sean, I would run 128:1 during the breakin. After breakin's and dyno's are done with, I would reduce it to 256:1 or thier rec'd 1/2 oz/gal"

Wouldn't I want less pre-mix on break in for a better "dig in". More lube = less friction so less wear on parts BUT I want wear right now correct?

2200!! I hate you again Brian:cuss: I am gonna start hitting the highway for short 40 mile trips to a town called Cascade. Great falls is 56,000 people and from one end of town to the other is about 10 miles man. 577 in maybe 9 day total drive time is pretty good for MT. :)

You know of some baseline oil temp ranges by chance bro?

[FC3S Murray]

re-post

[NoDOHC]

I used a piston compression tester, I got 115 psi pulses on all faces at 5000 miles. (I got about 100 at 500 miles). Total compression (check valve in) was a tick over 120 on both rotors. I think the piston tester works just fine, I don't understand your low readings.

By chance, did you try dumping oil down the spark plug hole and trying compression test again? (you should gain ~5-10 psi) If you gain a lot more, I guess more break-in is in order.

I premixed for the first 200 miles and then quit mixing after that until 5,000 miles, when I started mixing again.

[FC3S Murray]

I used a piston compression tester, I got 115 psi pulses on all faces at 5000 miles. (I got about 100 at 500 miles). Total compression (check valve in) was a tick over 120 on both rotors. I think the piston tester works just fine, I don't understand your low readings.



115 psi pulses? Man I was seeing 55 psi and I heard the average(via rotary ressurection) was 30-35 psi for each consecutive pulse. ?hmm

I am not worried until I hit 1500 miles.

[MaczPayne]

I run about 1/2 oz to a gallon regularly, and have probably done less on the old motor. The housings were still in great shape besides the chipped apex seal bouncing around in the rear rotor. I only run 1oz per gallon during track days or autocross practices.

[TitaniumTT]

2200!! I hate you again Brian:cuss: I am gonna start hitting the highway for short 40 mile trips to a town called Cascade. Great falls is 56,000 people and from one end of town to the other is about 10 miles man. 577 in maybe 9 day total drive time is pretty good for MT. :)

Well in all fairness, I did take 2 nights to do a 150mi jaunt each night, I went to Daves twice - 600 miles there, and AC over the weekend. 350 miles, so that's about 1250 out of the 2200 right there.......... BUT.... I also had that week long rebuild stretch where she wasn't running at all.... slacker ;)

"If anything Sean, I would run 128:1 during the breakin. After breakin's and dyno's are done with, I would reduce it to 256:1 or thier rec'd 1/2 oz/gal"

Wouldn't I want less pre-mix on break in for a better "dig in". More lube = less friction so less wear on parts BUT I want wear right now correct?

I've always been told that more premix during the breakin is a good thing. Reason being, you don't want too much dig in, you want the parts to seat, not overheat, not gouge, no be over stressed. After everythings seated and running well and broken in, there is less stress, less pressure points if you will.



You know of some baseline oil temp ranges by chance bro?

Depends on alot of things, personally I wouldn't worry until you start seeing 220+ oil temps and even those are acceptable. Lower would be better but 230 is an eye opener, 240 is like :cuss: The temps you described are just fine. I wouldn't worry at all. When under a more constant load, you should see oil temps 10-20*hotter than coolant. More than that and I would worry about the exchanger. I went a little to big I think, let me rephrase that, I went a little too small but ducted a little too well. I generally see 170* coolatn and 160* oil on the highway. When sitting in traffic in wonderful jersey on the way to AC, coolant hit 186 and oil hit 210. As soon as traffic started moving again it took about 2-3 miles for the oil to get back down to 160's.

[NoDOHC]

35 psi? I have never seen a pulse that low. Ever. (Except on a blown engine, which gives 25-30 with missing pieces of apex seal.) Maybe we do it differently. I simply take the check valve out of the bottom of the gauge and crank the engine with the plugs out of both rotors and the gas floored (about 400 rpm).

I tested a 120,000+ miles turbo II and got 90 psi bounces.

My 160,000 mile '91 has 110 psi bounces.

My 199,000 mile 6-port had 105 psi bounces even after the coolant seals failed.

I don't know if the pulse is actually 115 psi, I watch how high the gauge bounces (there may be overshoot).

The factory tester actually graphs instantaneous pressure on a chart. I have seen several traces and they usually run about 8 bar (120 psi).

The FSM recommends that no pulse be below 80 psi as I recall.

Think about this:

Starting air pressure 14.7 psi
compression ratio 8.2:1
final pressure = (14.7 * 8.2) = 120 psia = 105 psig (assuming constant air temperature, which is clearly not true, so the pressure should be higher). Any air lost past seals comes out of this total.

I can list a video of the gauge bounces if this would help.

What to you do for 35 psi readings?

[TitaniumTT]

thats assuming 100% effieciency. I'd be curious what the map readings are when cranking....... lemme go see........ GAWD I LOVE MoTeC

about 98.6 and I live @ sea level. Seans would be much lower. Just being a math geek

[RETed]

Wouldn't I want less pre-mix on break in for a better "dig in". More lube = less friction so less wear on parts BUT I want wear right now correct?

Pre-mix is designed to work with internal seals.
I'd question the Idemitsu ratios - maybe for intact OMP's?
Run the usually 100:1 - 150:1 ratios for "normal" driving.
128:1 is perfectly fine.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the compression test numbers.
The more important thing is that they are even.
Numbers will come up.
Different compression gauges will show different numbers.
A sweeping analog needle is something not very accurate in terms of watching for peaks - this is why Mazda used a digital display for their compression tester.


-Ted

[FC3S Murray]

Pre-mix is designed to work with internal seals.
I'd question the Idemitsu ratios - maybe for intact OMP's?
Run the usually 100:1 - 150:1 ratios for "normal" driving.
128:1 is perfectly fine.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the compression test numbers.
The more important thing is that they are even.
Numbers will come up.
Different compression gauges will show different numbers.
A sweeping analog needle is something not very accurate in terms of watching for peaks - this is why Mazda used a digital display for their compression tester.


-Ted


Good to know Ted. I will go to 128:1.


As for the comp test: All I do is hold the valve down on the side and observe the pulses. I have heard of some removing the valve to get a more accurate reading. Regardless we will see at 1500 mile OR maybe 2000.

Drove the car up this morning and SINCE I have put the timing back to the factory 5*ATDC my EGT's have gone up some.

My idle is around: Front-1102*F Rear- 1132*F
MY CONCERN is when I am cruising at about 2400rpm @ about 14.6 AFR my front rotor is about 1545-1554*F and my Rear is running very high at 1612-1623*F.....sometimes a 100*F difference.

When my timing was retarded the temps were obvisously lower(850*@ idle and 1350-1400* @ same AFR and 2400rpm).

I have my rear primary injector getting slightly more fuel, lag settings for front pri inj is .03 while rear pri inj is .04. I was advised to run the rear pri inj slighlty richer due to rear rotors being the common one to blow in S4 motors.

Wierd thing is my front seconadary port has a larger runner diameter because the iron was the later s5 port size and BDC ported it like he ported my last 2 irons. He recieved the front iron last due to some shipping mishaps from the orignal iron seller so he had nothing to compare it to since he already sent my other 2 irons to me. You would think it would run leaner and I would have the oppisite EGT problem BUT I know the LIM runners are smaller and would make the difference barely noticable unless the runners were port matched.

This ports size difference between my secondary runners was the REASON I bought my EGT probes because I felt that the daimeter difference(1/8 inch difference on top and bottom of larger port compared to the other ported secondary runner) would still maybe cause some irregular air intake/AFR issues.


I really wish there was some other info out there(beside Ted's) on common EGT ranges for rotaries. I know each engine is different BUT there has to be some common ground....


BTW...Brian, thanks for the advice on the oil temps and DAMN that was some milage in that short time. You had me all down and out on myself. :)

[FC3S Murray]

Well drove it back home today and had to adjust my MS of my rear primary injector from .04 to .22 ms
Now my FRONT PRI INJ is set @ .03ms lag and my REAR PRI INJ is set @ .22 ms lag
It made my temps about 20*F apart from eachother on my EGT's.

I wonder if I need to lower my engine timing on the pulley to 0* ATDC since there rotor housings have a different spark plug hole location and my map I am using now was running S4 TII rotor housings and S4 N/A rotors?

Engine just doesn't seem to have as much low end like it did at atmospheric pressure with the retarded timing. :)

[Whizbang]

man i need to start getting some data logging ability on the MS

[FC3S Murray]

I have a Power FC bro. You thinking MS is Mega Squirt? I am talking about milliseconds of injector fire. :)

[classicauto]

Good stuff sean!

On the idemitsu pre mix:

Normal ratios for typical TCw-3's are 1oz/gallon. Idemitsu's is 50% less because the "oil is better/designed to operate at that ratio" Thats the summation I got when I asked ID about the reasons behind it.

Its more expensive, but you use less (per gallon) because you need less :)

[TitaniumTT]

Depends on the type of oil I guess. I was using QuickSilver Premium Plus 2-cycle and the Idemitsu is actually cheaper as well. Best of both worlds. Then again, the QuickSilver is marine, and anything marine is going to be more $$$$


Nicely done Sean. I had the same issue, about 100* hotter in the rear while underload. I added 2% fuel but haven't been back in to check the results.

[project86]

ah... nothing like computer mumbo jumbo late at night. its almost as good as coffee in the morning....:)

[FC3S Murray]

just wait Kyle.....you will be there soon enough!


Got some tuning done last night and also order one of the FAST ACTING AIT sensors from Dudemannn. Hopefully this new sensor will help in having a more accurate tune. I get a lot of heat saturation when in stop and go and hopefully this keeps things more linear

[TitaniumTT]

Fast acting AIT sensor you say? Link perhaps? max operating temp? I need something that I can measure pre-intercooler charge air temps with. Just becuase


BTW...Brian, thanks for the advice on the oil temps and DAMN that was some milage in that short time. You had me all down and out on myself. :)

Yeah it was, got my Mobil bill yesterday - $461.xx is alot of mileage in a month :lol:

[Whizbang]

man i need to start getting some data logging ability on the MS

i have a megasquirt currently but i have yet to figure out the datalogging

[FC3S Murray]

oh I see.

[FC3S Murray]

Fast acting AIT sensor you say? Link perhaps? max operating temp? I need something that I can measure pre-intercooler charge air temps with.


Here you are bro. http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=8381&highlight=sensor&page=6


This weekend I am currently working on some custom .o25'' ducting that travels from my intercooler-by the oil cooler- to the koyo.

I have been doing it all by hand with some sheet metal snips and some small 3/8 self tapping sheet metal screws. lol

it is coming along just have to put some sealing foam/ soft rubber around the edges that will cause chaffing against the intercooler and radiator cores. Two more brackets to fabricate and then I will test her on tues.
This should take all the air coming through the intercooler and guide it right to the oil cooler and rad. This "should" work great since the radatior shroud I bought years ago and the new improved fan shroud from corksprt have improved air flow. I just NEEDED something to keep the air from dissipating out the bottom of the car after it passes the intercooler

[FC3S Murray]

Well ducting is done. Like I said, kinda ghetto( I hate sub-par shit on my FC) BUT hopefully will be functional. I would have like to do it with rivets and spot welded a couple of the brackets but I work with what I have.

All the screws are secured on the backside with a retaining bead of clear RTV and all the corners are sealed with weather stripping foam. The front and rear of the duct has about 1.5'' of foam so when it is bolted it is very air tight and compressed. Along the sides was a little more difficult. Some small areas for a little air loss BUT NOT MUCH.

I hope my oil cooler line doesn't get too hot on the foam:leaving:

All in all I am pleased and wil be much happier once I see some temps drop, Lets hope for a high 80* F day tomorrow so I can test compared to last week.

[TitaniumTT]

Nicely done Sean:icon_tup: A'int working with that stuff a bitch? I built mine out of .063 5052 AL. I figured it would take me a weekend........ nope, 2 and a few hours every day in between. Pissed me off. Looks awesome and jusding by the one oil cooler line that can be seen, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[FC3S Murray]

Thanks man for the kind words considering I still think it is ghetto-fabulous. It really was a bitch, most time consuming part was going back and forth taking measurements and constantly re-installing it to ensure proper fitment when a new bracket or hole was to be installed/drilled.

I REALLY wish I would have waited and had Sheet-Metal up here at my work take a gander at it and fabricate something nice. Either way, it would have only been better looking.

[FC3S Murray]

Well after driving around for about an hour and constantly charging the intake to atmospheric pressure and cruising around 3k constant, my oil temps never ran above 165* F.
It would go back to about 178*F sitting and heat soaking but the moment I got above 25mph it would drop pretty fast.

SAME goes for my SWEET new AIT sensor. That SOB would read 45*C after heat soaking and then immediately after driving it would drop to 36*C. After about 2 mins @ 30 mph she was reading 29* C steady and actually went down to 27* C at 50 mph.

Good shit. Now lets see what an 85* F day will do tomoorow temp wise.

[TitaniumTT]

Nicely done man.... funtion > form but if you can make it look good in the process :D

I need to get some more information on this fast actin AIT sensor, and do some more testing on mine. Like you did, heatsoak the intercooler and then go for a rip down the highway. Also need to get that coolant probe out of the charge pipe, the thing is not giving any useable data whatsoever. I need to find an AIT sensor that can handle 300+F

Are you using any supports on that big ass belly pan? If I ever get around to building mine it'll be out of .063 5052 and I'm a little concerned that it'll move and sing and "bong" at speeds

[FC3S Murray]

Are you using any supports on that big ass belly pan? If I ever get around to building mine it'll be out of .063 5052 and I'm a little concerned that it'll move and sing and "bong" at speeds

You know, I thought about putting an 1''x2''x22'' support out of the left over material across the belly pan but once I bolted all the sides up it really had no play waht so ever. I think the 1.5'' of sealing foam on the front and back act as leverage and cause the belly pan to have a natural concave bend to it. EVEN pushing down on it from the inside takes quite a bit force. It is very fucking snug.

I got up to about 90 mph last night and if my damn FC wasn't so loud maybe I could have heard something. Only way to check is with a wind tunnel I guess. :)


BTW, I drove the car to work this morning and it was about 56*F ambient and my AIT sensor was reading 18*c most the drive. I had to lean up my 10*C to 30*C Air Intake Temp-to-Injection table because I have never seen those low temps. Even this time last year with my last motor, the lowest reading I would get after some driving was about 24*C and I believe that was on 45* F mornings. SOOO good it makes you wanna slap your mamma!


So Brian... why do you need a AIT sensor that can handle 300* F ??:o11: