flooding out FC3S4 N/A

[Shadow24v]

Im working with the guy selling me an 86 FC3S4 to get it running before i have him paid off. initially this is what he said:

It ran pretty good, had good power, ran a little rich, idled good but would try to die out after revving it, it's a bit rich I think. I did a compression check, twice, came up w/ 80-90 psi on all rotor faces (FSM says 85 minimum, my TII runs on 50-60 psi). It doesn't run at the moment because the CAS (crank angle sensor) is bad and I haven't went and got one to replace it. We got it in at the junkyard not running, and we've got it running several times, then it won't run again. Probably partially due to the bad CAS, partially due to whatever is causing the smoke.

I secured a used CAS and he swapped them but

I got the CAS today, stuck it in, it fired a bit but wouldn't quite catch. It seems to just be flooding out almost instantly, I dunno if an injector or two is stuck open or what. Stupid car lol

He's got a T-II FC for his own and is a competent mechanic. I just picked up some known good injectors to send to him, but does anyone have any additional thoughts on what might be causing it to flood that fast?

[Ender]

Low compression is a likely culprit. If gas blows past the seals much it'll wash out the oil needed to seal the chambers, and then it'll just crank and crank because it can't build compression. This is a very common problem with low compression rotaries. A temporary fix sometimes works, you can install a fuel cut switch so it doesn't just POUR fuel into the chambers on startup. You probably will have to rebuild a motor with that low of compression before soon though. I would keep that in mind. My TII came to me with probably 80psi compression and had the same trouble starting and I used a fuel cut switch to help it start. I was probably lucky to get ~8,000 miles out of it before it let go. I knew it was coming though and I had stocked up on all the parts I needed for a rebuild, so when it died I was prepared to build myself a new, better motor.

[Shadow24v]

i thought 80-90 psi compression was good....(HIS T-II has the 50-60psi, not the N/A he's selling me)

does the FC have a flood threshold for the throttle? floor it on crank and it cuts fuel?

any way to temporarily re-oil the seals? put a bit of oil in through the intake or spark plug holes and crank it over?

[Whizbang]

injector problems CAN be the cause of the issue. I had a string of rx-7s come through once that all had serious running issues from constant flooding, stalling and bucking. They all turned out to have bad injectors.

[Max777]

i thought 80-90 psi compression was good....(HIS T-II has the 50-60psi, not the N/A he's selling me)

does the FC have a flood threshold for the throttle? floor it on crank and it cuts fuel?

any way to temporarily re-oil the seals? put a bit of oil in through the intake or spark plug holes and crank it over?

you know, that might have just been the gauge.

I tested my car with two gauges that both got 90psi, and then with this other one that only displayed 50psi, and I was like WTF?

So it might just be the gauge.

[vex]

90 is rebuild time. My NA rotors pump out 110-115 on both faces with pulses up to 60PSI on any single compression.

[Shadow24v]

well, i can't afford a rebuild ATM, (student, i.e. broke as hell) provided the engine is in good shape, can a rebuild be just the apex, side seals and a small list of other parts? the master rebuild kit on Atkins was like $900...

Im hoping that its the injectors and she'll run with better ones. im guessing an oil change is in order after all the flooding.

[Max777]

I know I will need to rebuild the engine, but a 100k one is better than a 140k one, so for now it will do. (old one had a coolant seal pop in 3 places on the front iron)

[Flooder]

50-60 psi is really low, even for a TII. And you can't compare compression numbers between an NA and a TII. TII's come with lower compression rotors and NA's are higher compression. So if you had an NA and a TII that both got 80psi, the NA is probably a lot weaker than the TII.

So back on topic, the motor probably has lower compression than he's telling you. If the injectors you sent him weren't professionally serviced then they will still probably leak and cause more flooding. The injectors and low compression are what cause flooding.

[Shadow24v]

any particular reason you think the compression numbers are lower than he says? (hes a long-time member of a forum im on and a standup guy by general consensus) FWIW the injectors i sent came out of a running N/A so...*shrug*

on the subject of rebuilds, is there a quick and dirty rebuild to get the compression up to where it should be? im not liking the $900 pricetag for a master kit... aside from seals etc, can you do just the seals and such and have a refreshed motor?

[vex]

any particular reason you think the compression numbers are lower than he says? (hes a long-time member of a forum im on and a standup guy by general consensus) FWIW the injectors i sent came out of a running N/A so...*shrug*

on the subject of rebuilds, is there a quick and dirty rebuild to get the compression up to where it should be? im not liking the $900 pricetag for a master kit... aside from seals etc, can you do just the seals and such and have a refreshed motor?

The only way to save money on a rebuild would be to see which seals are still in spec (IE Apex seals). If your Apex seals are still in spec you can probably find a kit that doesn't have them included which can save you some money. Also, find out if your oil rings are in good condition as well as your side seals, then you might not have to get those seals either (though it is a good idea). After that you will just need a gasket and seal kit for taking it apart. Honestly if you're getting low compression and you're flooding out it very well could be leaky injectors in which case your compression numbers are lower than what they should be. If the injectors are not faulty and are in good condition you're still low on the compression side which can mean a few things. Your apex seals are out of spec, your side seals are toast, etc. It just all depends.

[Shadow24v]

ok, ill see what happens with the new injectors. ive had experience with gunked injectors on my Duster, so i know how much of a PITA a stuck open injector is.

Atkins had a rotor kit or something like that which was apex, side seals and some other parts. is there another supplier for rebuild parts other than atkins?

[vex]

ok, ill see what happens with the new injectors. ive had experience with gunked injectors on my Duster, so i know how much of a PITA a stuck open injector is.

Atkins had a rotor kit or something like that which was apex, side seals and some other parts. is there another supplier for rebuild parts other than atkins?

There are, but their prices are more expensive from the ones i've been able to see. Not sure though. Check their vendor section for a deal they're doing with re-build kits. It's not a bad deal all things considering.

[Flooder]

Well like its been said already, the causes for a flooded motor are leaky injectors and or low compression. Just because you got injectors from a running car doesn't mean that they wont leak either.

[My5ABaby]

i thought 80-90 psi compression was good....(HIS T-II has the 50-60psi, not the N/A he's selling me)

does the FC have a flood threshold for the throttle? floor it on crank and it cuts fuel?

any way to temporarily re-oil the seals? put a bit of oil in through the intake or spark plug holes and crank it over?
The S5 cuts fuel if you put the pedal all the way down, but the S4 does not.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2ndgen/tech_fuel_cutoff_switch_unflooding.html

[Shadow24v]

well, i sent out the final payment on the FC. Ill be picking it up in 2.5 weeks! :)

Still havent figured out the flooding though. Secondary injectors got switched but it still doesn't quite catch. Once i get it in my posession, ill swap the primaries and see if thats the issue.

Would a bad FPR cause a flood on start?

[Whizbang]

technically yes. Only reason i can confirm this is mine on a car i used to have some how went bad and it would not relieve fuel pressure to the return so the pressure was quite high.

[Shadow24v]

I thought so. ill keep that in mind if swapping the primaries doesn't fix it.

(ironically i think i have a FPR issue on my DD too lol)

[DJMOJO]

no not really. if you tear down the motor to rebuild just a few seals you will be wasting a ton of time for nothing, if you tare that thing apart make sure you do it proper and have a master kit waiting for it. you'll be doing yourself a huge disservice otherwise

[vex]

no not really. if you tear down the motor to rebuild just a few seals you will be wasting a ton of time for nothing, if you tare that thing apart make sure you do it proper and have a master kit waiting for it. you'll be doing yourself a huge disservice otherwise

Why on earth would you need a master kit? Especially before what you know is in spec and what isn't?

Why replace the rotor bearings if they're still in spec?
Why replace the stationary gear bearings if they're still in spec?
Why replace the Apex seals if they're still in spec (assuming the engine has 2 piece seals)?
Why replace the side seals if they're still in spec?
Why replace the corner seals if they're still in spec?
Why replace the oil control rings if they're still in spec (I'm referring to the hard rings and not the soft seals which are replaced during a rebuild)?
etc
etc
etc

You shouldn't ever buy a rebuild kit before you know what's in spec and what isn't. You can save so much more money than just buying a master rebuild kit. Sure you can buy a master rebuild kit and be done with it and know that you're going to have an engine that should theoretically last over 100k, or you can replace what's been worn out of spec and get an engine that should theoretically last over 100k.

[Max777]

/\ Good point, and besides, it's not like most people are going to end up driving their cars for another 100K in the first place... at least, people with nicer cars that dont drive them every day.

[12arotary]

i'm just curious why your making payments on a non running car? hopefully you didn't just pay 12k for it

[Shadow24v]

college intern + making crap + bills = payments on a $300 car :)

Vex, you make good points on the rebuild thing. same thing goes for piston engines. why buy a whole kit w/ pistons, rings etc etc when all you might need is a couple gaskets and bearings? :)

[12arotary]

college intern + making crap + bills = payments on a $300 car :)

Vex, you make good points on the rebuild thing. same thing goes for piston engines. why buy a whole kit w/ pistons, rings etc etc when all you might need is a couple gaskets and bearings? :)
Or you could make the point-
Do it once do it right-
Why use old stuff even if its perfect id rather rebuild once and replace everything than fix what is bad at this time-

[vex]

Why use old stuff even if its perfect id rather rebuild once and replace everything than fix what is bad at this time-

If the parts are in spec, they're going to be equivalent to if not the exact same as what you replace them with. There's reasons why the FSM states "if out of spec, replace". There's no point except bragging rights and maybe a false sense of security with just swapping in with a master kit all the parts that are still in spec. You run the same exact chances of failure with new parts that are spec'd that you do with old parts that are spec'd. Now, if we were talking about re-using soft seals, then yes. Replacing soft seals are mandatory for correct function.

[DJMOJO]

Or you could make the point-
Do it once do it right-
Why use old stuff even if its perfect id rather rebuild once and replace everything than fix what is bad at this time-

thats the point i was trying to make ill take the false sense of security anyday

[vex]

Let me put it this way: You have a used journal bearing that shows no sign of wear. You spec it and it shows the perfect conditions for the bearing to have.

Compare it to a new journal bearing you have that shows no sign of wear. You spec it and it shows the perfect conditions for the bearing to have.

What's the difference?

[DJMOJO]

id still toss the old one. i guess you dont get my point eather, i get what your saying, and on say, a pulley bearing i totaly get and understand your point. its something that is easily accesable, and if they pulley is still up to spec and has no signs of wear then why replace it. if im tearing down an engine for a rebuild id much rather use a master rebuild kit and not have to worry about specing every single piece. just replace it and get it over with.

[vex]

id still toss the old one. i guess you dont get my point eather, i get what your saying, and on say, a pulley bearing i totaly get and understand your point. its something that is easily accesable, and if they pulley is still up to spec and has no signs of wear then why replace it. if im tearing down an engine for a rebuild id much rather use a master rebuild kit and not have to worry about specing every single piece. just replace it and get it over with.
:beatdeadhorse5:
Even with new parts you should still be specing them prior to install. At no point in the rebuild process should you not be specing any part in a high tolerance location (all bearings and seals). So again, beyond a false sense of security, extra work, extra money, there is no benefit (can those really be called a benefit?) to replacing an in-spec part for a new in-spec part. If an old in-spec part does eventually fail in the engine, it's not going to be because the part was old/tired and broke from fatigue, it will occur--more likely from an out of spec, improperly installed, or catastrophic failure from a pre-ignition event. All of which would cause the same exact failure of a new part in the same way.

Now that being said, some parts are better off being replaced even if they're still in spec: Apex seals, if they're of the old 3 piece kind, can easily be upgraded to the newer 2 piece without much issue or head ache. In spec 2 piece so long as you remember which rotor they came from and which apex they came from on that rotor can easily be used for the rebuild if there's enough life in them. If however the apex seals are getting closer to the wear limit (6.5mm~7mm) One should think about replacing them with new because failure of those seals will occur sooner than a new (8mm) apex seal (for further clarification look at the ash content of oils thread in the general tech section). Apex seals are wear parts.

When it comes to bearings however there is absolutely no benefit to replacing the old with the new, unless of course you're stepping up to a 3 window, or race bearing. This is because there is supposed to be no actual contact between the eccentric shaft and the bearing, as well as the rotor bearing should make no actual contact with the eccentric shaft. The journal bearings use the principle of shear to keep wear from occurring, and as such the oil will play a much bigger role in the life of those parts than the actual time in the engine of the part.

So, if I still don't get it. Please explain it to me where the benefit comes from replacing old-in-spec parts with new-in-spec parts?

[Shadow24v]

Well, i towed my "new" rx-7 home this weekend. 1400mi round trip in 36 hours. Wend down with a 2.3L 4-cyl 2wd manual ranger and a tow dolly to south carolina to pick it up. Loaded the car onto the dolly backwards (drive wheels off the ground) and trundled slowly back. Couldn't go above 55-60 as i had trailer-whip when i hit 65+.

The car is the one that was for sale HERE (http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=5665) and there are a couple pics as well.

As far as i can tell, it is in good shape. a SC car all its life i believe, virtually no rust that i saw. Its actually a 87 according to the title with 170K or so miles.

There are some small issues with it (aside from not starting/running)
1) shifter has vertical play, i think the retaining plate is wore out or broken
2) right side mirror housing is broken
3) a triangle-ish vent cover on the right of the dash is MIA (grey interior)
4) e-brake handle casing is cracked and separating
5) minor dings, scratches, loose or cracked interior pieces
6) one of the rear glass latches isn't latching
7) driver's door doesn't lock
8) clutch pedal likes to stick down at the floor (stuck PP maybe?)

As for the motor, Im planning on getting a battery and seeing what it does when i try and start it. I'll probably pump out the tank and replace the fuel filter as well as an oil change and possibly a coolant change.

I still have to change the primary injectors and see if that helps with the flooding/starting issue. I'll post up more later this week when i get a battery and a chance to fiddle with it.

It needs a little TLC but it will definitely get that now :) BTW, is there supposed to be an RX-7 badge on teh rear? all i have is a "Mazda" one.

And if anyone has an s4 or s5 parting out i'll be interested in parts/pieces to get this back into decent shape :D

[Red Dragon]

lol, I "think" there is suppose to be an RX-7 badge on the rear. Mine's was missing when I bought it.

[Shadow24v]

Well, tried to start the 7 again and had NO spark. Leading coil checked out but the trailing coils had good primary resistance and i could not get ANY reading from the secondary to ground. It seems like the trailing coils are shot and im not sure why im not getting any spark at all. It may just be a weak charge on the battery but any advice would be appreciated :)

[NoDOHC]

You should charge the battery before you try to start the car.

I am sure that you tried adding two-stroke oil to each rotor, but I thought I would ask.

Even with a terrible tune (3-bar MAP tune, 1 bar MAP) my '86 started just fine for the initial start on the Haltech.

If it ever wouldn't start, oil was the answer (although it did pulse to 100+ psi on all faces - without any oil).

(The tune is better now and oil is no longer necessary).

You could also try starting the car with the accelerator pedal floored (after clearing the flood and adding oil). If you can get it running, keep it running for a while, maybe it just needs to be run.

If it is the FPR, you should be able to install a gauge in the line from the primary injectors to the secondary injectors and verify that.

edit: You really should try pull-starting it too.

[Shadow24v]

You should charge the battery before you try to start the car.

I am sure that you tried adding two-stroke oil to each rotor, but I thought I would ask.

Even with a terrible tune (3-bar MAP tune, 1 bar MAP) my '86 started just fine for the initial start on the Haltech.

If it ever wouldn't start, oil was the answer (although it did pulse to 100+ psi on all faces - without any oil).

(The tune is better now and oil is no longer necessary).

You could also try starting the car with the accelerator pedal floored (after clearing the flood and adding oil). If you can get it running, keep it running for a while, maybe it just needs to be run.

If it is the FPR, you should be able to install a gauge in the line from the primary injectors to the secondary injectors and verify that.

edit: You really should try pull-starting it too.

Its a brand new battery but i will throw the charger on it before trying again

Haven't tried the 2-stroke oil thing, where would you put that anyways? intake or in through the spark plug holes?

the S4 didn't have a flood clear so whats the reasoning behind the full throttle starting?

Also, does anyone know what the secondary coil resistance SHOULD be? and can i run 2 blaster 2 coils in lace of the stock ones? (i REALLY don't want to pay the stupid high prices for stock coils vs the less expensive aftermarket coils) As far as i can tell the Blaster 2's would be fine, the primary resistance is within the OEM spec (blaster 2 - .700 ohms, spec is .2-1.0 ohms)

[NoDOHC]

You can get the coils for CHEAP on eBay or on here.

I am sure that someone has a spare set that they are willing to part with.

The 2-stroke oil goes in the spark plug holes after you have pulled the EGI fuse and removed the spark plugs and cranked the engine for 30-60 seconds with the gas on the floor. (I used a small hose to add the oil.) The plugs can then be replaced. This should get your engine running.

Flooring the gas will minimize the problems due to vacuum leaks and injector leaks and may give the engine a change to get to a good 3000ish rpm before all the starting aid oil is gone.

edit: Be careful to look at required dwell time on aftermarket coils. Rotaries have a tendancy to saturate inexpensive aftermarket coils at higher revs.

[Shadow24v]

ahh ok, i did find a set of trailings on ebay for $49 shipped...(kinda wanted them NOW though lol) going to see if the junkyard here has the FC body for the motor they listed and maybe i can snag some trailing coils there...

thanks for the clarification on the oil and flooring it. it makes sense now :)

[Shadow24v]

well, i fiddled with the 7 today a fair bit. picked up a trailing coil set and some misc parts for $50 at a J-yard (had 2 89+ GXLs). pulled the plugs, pulled the car in gear to de-flood the motor and actually got it to start while flooring it, it was running like crap though, still seemed to be drowning out. once i let it stall out after 30-50 seconds, i couldn't get it to start at all and the plugs were constantly wet with fuel.

picked up 6 qts castrol GTX 20w50 and an oil filter and ordered plug wires, plugs and a fuel filter as well. going to do a coolant drain flush and fill as well.

Decided to drain the tank and got about 7 gallons of varnished fuel out of the car. I think the varnished fuel has gunked up the primary injectors causing it to flood but i don't know if the intermediate intake gasket is reusable. the parts place list the "intake manifold" gasket at $50+ and 2 "plenum" gaskets around $9-$11. Also i forgot to ask about a pulsation damper.

I tried replacing the worn out shifter with one i got from the 89+ but i still have vertical play in the shifter and the motion isn't great, and its picky about going into reverse. Im thinking about getting an ebay short shifter with all new hardware to see if that fixes the issue (can't afford a mazdatrix one)

I also re-did the battery connections and bled the clutch system as it was dry. i still feel like there should be more travel for the clutch but i think that is going to be found in adjusting the clutch pedal.

If there is any other advice, im open to anything about now. One good thing is i dont have any dead faces as i got "pissh"s from all rotor faces when i was de-flooding the motor.

[TehMonkay]

Check voltage to leading coil, should be same as battery voltage.

If that checks out and you're still not getting spark on leading i'd try changing out the leading coil, the trailing won't affect the ability to start too much.

I'd definately clean the injectors though. If you have varnish in the tank though i'd drop the tank, clean it out really well with brake cleaner, change out the fuel sock on the pump before chaning it out and flush the lines out with some alcohol before putting everything back together. My T2 has the same issue.

[NoDOHC]

You may have a serious vacuum leak.

My '86 was exactly like that when I got it, the vacuum line to the brake booster was MIA.

If the car runs when flat on the floor and not under any other circumstances, it is likely to be either the TPS, MAP, or a vacuum leak.

I guess I could see the vacuum line to the FPR missing or improperly connected.

Does the car still have all the emissions intact?

I think that a fuel pressure gauge would do you a lot of good (determine if your FPR is bad or malconnected or you have a plugged return line.

I have known people to try the ingenious plan of crimping off the return line to get more power (some old truckers used to do that with reasonable success on ancient diesel engines). It doesn't work with a gasonline engine. Infact to get more power out of a stock rotary, you need LESS fuel.

[Shadow24v]

well, for one i saw that the hose connecting the primary fuel rail to the secondary has a nasty kink in it. That might be causing the issue.

As for the varnished fuel, is it that hard to drop the tank? it looked like 2 straps and it'd come right down.

AFAIK it has all the emissions stuff still attached, its a relatively untouched rx-7 :)

Wile i can't spot any missing vacuum lines it doesn't mean that some of them might be bad.

the leading coils checked out and it DID run, the issue i believe is in the fueling side.

I have a set of known good injectors, the secondaries were swapped by the seller but not the primaries. I want to swap them after seeing the fuel i pulled out, but i don't know what gasket to get to replace the one between both upper and lower intakes

[Rx-7fetish]

I want to swap them after seeing the fuel i pulled out, but i don't know what gasket to get to replace the one between both upper and lower intakes

http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.asp?partnum=13-112A-N326

Its this one

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n209/nubz1/13-112A-N326.jpg

[Shadow24v]

^ -- thanks :) i was able to order one from NAPA for now although i don't know if ill need it anymore :D

I did a lot today, oil change - the old oil, if you can call it that, was almost more fuel than oil. had a heck of a time getting the old filter off, had to drive a screwdriver through it about 5 times and use it as a lever to finally break it loose. also put in a new fuel filter, new leading plugs and new plug wires and the j-yard trailing coils i got yesterday. re-did the battery terminal connections on the wiring harness.

still can't find the clutch system leak though, slave cylinder and hose to the MC are dry as a bone and it doesn't LOOK like the MC is leaking but that's about the last thing to look at and replace. lifetime remaned for $79 from oreillys possibly. you get about 6-7 clutches before the reservoir is empty again.

i DID drive it around the block though :driving: after the oil change and all that and adding a gallon of 89, i said "well if it floods ill be swapping injectors but if it runs, GREAT!" and on about the 3rd crank (starter seems weak or strong depending on a whim, i wonder if its wearing out as it also gets stuck sometimes) it started to pop and then caught. revved up to 3K and slowly idled down to around 1000ish before i turned it off after i set the smoke detector off :rofl: i pulled it out of the garage and started it up again and drove around the block taking it to 7000 about 3 times or so, but it was smoking blue smoke like a SOB, i hope its just cleaning itself out and will clean up in time but.... i parked it after one lap and getting the coolant temp about halfway up the gauge as it was beeping at me (i think it was a low fuel warning as only that and the rear hatch idiot lights were on. the rear hatch needs adjusting to latch one side and trip the sensor i think)

Any idea why it would smoke like it is? bad oil seals? over-filled oil? (i put 5 qts in...) or something else? it seemed real smooth except for some popping on de-accel and a lumpy low idle around 500 or less after warming up. pulled pretty good too

[Rx-7fetish]

I did a lot today, oil change - the old oil, if you can call it that, was almost more fuel than oil.
Wait, you had fuel in your oil?:o11:

still can't find the clutch system leak though, slave cylinder and hose to the MC are dry as a bone and it doesn't LOOK like the MC is leaking but that's about the last thing to look at and replace. lifetime remaned for $79 from oreillys possibly. you get about 6-7 clutches before the reservoir is empty again. Reach up inside your car were the master cylinder bolts to the car, mine was leaking past the plunger.

i pulled it out of the garage and started it up again and drove around the block taking it to 7000 about 3 times or so, but it was smoking blue smoke like a SOB, i hope its just cleaning itself out and will clean up in time but.... i parked it after one lap and getting the coolant temp about halfway up the gauge as it was beeping at me (i think it was a low fuel warning as only that and the rear hatch idiot lights were on. the rear hatch needs adjusting to latch one side and trip the sensor i think)

You did let it warm up before you took it to 7 grand right? If you didnt that was a bad move..... The beeping could have been anything, i dont get a beep when my fuel light is on, the beeping is kind of like a check engine light for an s4, the pattern of the beeps lets you know whats wrong. Check the other forum in one of icemarks stickies for what each pattern means

Any idea why it would smoke like it is? bad oil seals? over-filled oil? (i put 5 qts in...) or something else? it seemed real smooth except for some popping on de-accel and a lumpy low idle around 500 or less after warming up. pulled pretty good too
Idle should be around 750 i believe, below 500 is definitely to low:icon_tdown:. Did you everr inject any oil into a spark plug hole to try to build compression? or did the previous owner try this, the may have used to much, that would explain a lot of smoke. How long is your block because if they didnt thats a very bad sign. If your block is short you may not have driven it long enough to notice any overheating of the engine.

Glad you got it running though, it feels good to make something work, even if its not perfect lol :icon_tup:

[Whizbang]

whats your exhaust system structure? Stock manifold? Any cats? If you had some longer term flooding issues, fuel will get soaked into those areas and take a while to burn out.

[Whizbang]

Wait, you had fuel in your oil?:o11:


typical with flooding cars.

[Rx-7fetish]

typical with flooding cars.

Wouldnt this mean bad seals though??

[Shadow24v]

the oil was about the consistency of water and smelled like the varnished fuel i drained out of the tank.

i didn't do the oil trick but it seemed to have enough compression to start fairly easily. i think the 3 cranks was only because the fuel system was empty.

i ran it for about 5-6 minutes before i ventured up to 7000, i twas already the coolant temp was climbing, probably 1/4 up the gauge when i ventured into higher revs (only part throttle anyways) the "block" is easily 2+ miles around

it initially idled around 750ish but after the drive it was idling lower.

the beep was a 2-shot, "beep-beep.......beep-beep"

exhaust is a stock 2-cat (i think) system so it very well could be crap built up in the cats. it was smoking out the exhaust a little for a few minutes after i parked it.

I'll double check the M/C inside the car to see if its leaking there

[Shadow24v]

well, found out what the 2-beep code is, but don't have a clue where to look to fix it

from the "other" site's FAQ "2-beeps, pause, repeat - in case abnormality of engine speed signal:
The buzzer sounds twice and repeats when the vehicle speed signal is missing input and/or no engine speed signal is found (short circuit, broken wire, etc.)"

[Whizbang]

Wouldnt this mean bad seals though??

Not really. Too much fuel will wash out the oil film in the engine. The fuel will make its way to oil.

[Whizbang]

well, found out what the 2-beep code is, but don't have a clue where to look to fix it

from the "other" site's FAQ "2-beeps, pause, repeat - in case abnormality of engine speed signal:
The buzzer sounds twice and repeats when the vehicle speed signal is missing input and/or no engine speed signal is found (short circuit, broken wire, etc.)"

we have this in our FAQ as well.

[Shadow24v]

hmmm, i haven't been able to locate the FAQ threads here, im probably looking in the wrong threads/places

Also, i see that mazdatrix has the inner and middle boots for the 86-88 shifters but i don't see a lower bushing, just an upper....

Also, any idea on fixing the beep code?

[Whizbang]

for the 1st gen, 2nd gen and Trans / Diff faqs, they are at the top of their respective sections or in my signature.

I am not my laptop which has the FSMs, but i would go to the 2nd gen section, you should see the stickied thread with links to the FSMs downloads in PDF format. Download them. there will be some good information in there somewhere.

[Shadow24v]

ok, i did download the FSM so ill take a gander through that for the beep code fixes, thanks

still trying to find the shifter seal, lower and upper shifter bushings and middle boot for less than an arm and a leg, but i don't know if i can. is Mazdatrix the only real place to get those aside from the dealer?

[My5ABaby]

ok, i did download the FSM so ill take a gander through that for the beep code fixes, thanks

still trying to find the shifter seal, lower and upper shifter bushings and middle boot for less than an arm and a leg, but i don't know if i can. is Mazdatrix the only real place to get those aside from the dealer?

Call Ray Crowe at Malloy Mazda.

[Shadow24v]

do they ship?im in OH lol

Im going to be replacing the clutch MC and starter today and see how it goes. maybe get to drive it some more! :D

Also, i have scoured the web looking for a solution to the 2-beep code m getting but all ive found is a definition of the code, not where to look to fix it. Ive even looked through the FSM but i can;t find anything in there either. any help would be most appreciated :)

[vex]

do they ship?im in OH lolYes, they ship. I know for me it is 5 dollar shipping on anything--but I'm in-state)

Im going to be replacing the clutch MC and starter today and see how it goes. maybe get to drive it some more! :D

Also, i have scoured the web looking for a solution to the 2-beep code m getting but all ive found is a definition of the code, not where to look to fix it. Ive even looked through the FSM but i can;t find anything in there either. any help would be most appreciated :)Is your idle set incorrectly? When I had a beep similar to that my idle was set incorrectly and it was high so the computer spat at me.

[Shadow24v]

AFAIK it is, it only idled low after driving it. Also the beep only started once i started driving the car

[vex]

a properly set idle and an incorrectly set idle are hard to justify only by idle speed.

[Shadow24v]

oh? what are the criteria for a correctly set idle on a rotary then?

AFAIK idle speed is the primary governor for a properly set idle on a piston car....

[vex]

oh? what are the criteria for a correctly set idle on a rotary then?

AFAIK idle speed is the primary governor for a properly set idle on a piston car....

Look up the procedure in the FSM. I had to adjust the secondary throttle plates as well as the air bleed screw to properly set the idle. I doubt you'll have to do that though since it's usually set and locked from the factory.

[Shadow24v]

ill look into that if it still is idling oddly.

im just waiting for a new starter. the goombah at auto-stoned told me it would be in sunday but didn't realize it was drop-shipping from the manufacturer and wouldn't be in til tuesday :cuss: i probably could have had one elsewhere by sunday but they were all more expensive and i also turned my core in at auto-stoned :( well, at least this should help with starting as the old one was finicky about how fast it would spin over and if it decided to get stuck or not.

replaced the clutch MC, it was leaking into the insulation and thats why i didn't see the leak inside the car. just need to bleed it and it should be good to go

[Shadow24v]

picked up the new starter today and its a MUCH beefier unit than the one i pulled out. about 1/2"-1" larger diameter on the motor casing and they helicoiled one of the bolt holes. the upper one i believe, that had the long bolt through the rear end plate and a nut to hold the starter in place. i'll see how it fits today, i don't foresee a problem but you never know lol

[TehMonkay]

Fuel tank drops out pretty easy after being drained :)

[vex]

picked up the new starter today and its a MUCH beefier unit than the one i pulled out. about 1/2"-1" larger diameter on the motor casing and they helicoiled one of the bolt holes. the upper one i believe, that had the long bolt through the rear end plate and a nut to hold the starter in place. i'll see how it fits today, i don't foresee a problem but you never know lol

huh?

The upper bolt hole is a through hole. You're supposed to have a nut and bolt connect on the upper. If they helicoiled the lower, I could see that.

[Shadow24v]

yeah, the top one was helicoiled for the long bolt and nut, the bottom was still just a through hole for the short bolt.

Got everything in and she turned right over and caught. revved to 3000 and idled down to around 1000. she's still smoking like a chimney though, blue and white smoke. as far as i can tell she seems to be running fine except for some timing issues. Im going to reset the timing today hopefully and see if that helps. L1 was misfiring a little (you could hear it when it did and see it on the light) and T2 wasn't firing at all.

Any idea what all the smoke could be? i hope to get a vid soon so you can see/hear what is going on. Also, after you rev it a bit to move it, the idle dropped to 500ish. I hope i don't need a rebuild :(

[vex]

gas/oil, did one of your control rings let go?

[Shadow24v]

beats me, it was mostly blue oil looking smoke after starting but after idling for a while that was subsiding then it started spewing whitish smoke. :confused: Im going to see if it does it again today when i try and set the timing.

When i changed the oil, it was overfull with gas/oil mixture, im wondering if this adversely affected some seals in the engine. Also, there is a little bit of rust in the radiator, could this lead to a coolant seal blowing out?

[Shadow24v]

re-read your post, it was flooding out a lot before i bought it. that's what i believe was the source of the fuel diluted oil

Im pretty sure its not coolant as it doesn't have the trademark sweet smell. it smells like oil smoke and i think its burning a lot of oil, im going to double check the dipstick tomorrow morning (about 3 minutes after shutoff it was reading down 1/2 a qt from before i started it 2 days ago) im going to the junkyard tomorrow to nab a fan, pulsation damper and possibly the MOP as well. im thinking mine might be stuck wide open


btw, here's a vid of the smoke im talking about. its a cell phone vid (on dialup ATM) and i don't know why there's no sound, but it was idling at a good 750-800 and timing was bang on (i reset it and the idle)

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/shadowplane676/th_0429091942.jpg (http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/shadowplane676/?action=view&current=0429091942.flv)

[vex]

I saw your problem! A magic dog wanted to appear... so it said "poof! I'm Here"

Honestly it looks almost like a sea foam treatment, but if you're burning that much oil something is definitely wrong. I would check your oil injectors to see if they're actually injecting the correct amount of oil into the system. If they check out I would then look at the fuel as a possible cause: AKA some one dumped in tons of seafoam and it's burning off. If the gas is good, then I would see where your oil sits after running it for a little bit. If it's gone low your oil control rings may have taken a crap and you'll need to rebuild.

[Shadow24v]

i'll check the MOP (getting one from a j-yard today anyways). fuel is new 89 octane. i REALLY hope it doesn't need a rebuild, thats expensive :( it seems to have good compression and starts reliably right now so...

[Shadow24v]

well, it looks like its eaten over 1/2 a quart of oil in about 30 minutes of run time. It was at the F mark on the dipstick when i first started it after all the work, now its down to halfway between the F and Add mark. It still smokes like a banshee and the MOP seems ok, the lever moves freely and all. the J-yard MOP was frozen and missing the lines and injectors so i didn't get it. It was also idling up and down between 1000 and 1500 before i turned it off. smoke got worse with rpms as well

is this probably a case of bad oil seals then? :( :banghead:

[Rx-7fetish]

:nopity:

[Shadow24v]

:nopity:

thanks.....



anyways, i'd like to see if its actually the MOP before committing to a rebuild. Does anyone have a known good mechanical MOP with lines for sale?

[Rx-7fetish]

I might i will have to check tomorrow or saturday, wait, cant he just disconnect the rod for the pump and add some oil to the tank to premix and run without it to see if it stops smoking as bad?? MAKE sure you premix before running though

[NoDOHC]

The MOP can't use anywhere near a pint in 30 minutes. During break in, I had the MOP on my 4 port maxed out all the time and it only visibly smoked at idle. (No noticable consumption in 45 minutes of 3000 - 4500 rpm break-in).

The old 6-port engine (199,000 miles) smoked like a chimney above 6,000 rpm (yes, higher revs make the oil pressure higher, which makes the oil seals leak more). The smoke should also let up a little as the engine warms up if it is the oil seals.

edit: You can replace the oil seals ($140.00 at the dealer). You will also need to replace the coolant seals and front cover gasket while you have it apart (about $150.00 for a gasket set).

[Shadow24v]

what about if the MOP had failed and wasn't "metering" at all but had the full oil pressure going through the lines?

[Rx-7fetish]

Thats what i was thinking, and sorry i dont have any good lines

[Shadow24v]

thats ok, i found an S4 in the J-yard with a seemingly intact and working MOP. and theres an S5 too, maybe ill gank the tail lights while im there...:D

[Shadow24v]

well, got the MOP, lines, and oil injectors along with a non-cracked pulsation damper and a non-loose visor thingy. all for $35 + tax (and i picked up a pry bar someone left on a miata :) )

going to see what the deal is this weekend i hope. Plus its not that hard to switch the MOP without pulling the radiator hoses, just the intake piping and air pump.

the S5 tail lights were already MIA though :(

if i need to do the oil seals, it will have to wait til i finish the trans rebuild for my DD...

[Force Fed]

Good to see you got it running again. That car about aggravated the living daylights out of me :) That's how much it smoked when I had it running, but it would go away after it warmed up. When cold and revved though it'd look like a forest fire in my backyard lol.

I pretty much checked out everything that's been mentioned so far, back when I was on rx7club still I asked about it and got pretty much the same answers lol. Let us know if the MOP fixes it, but I don't think it will, or at least I was told it wouldn't. Pretty sure it needs control rings at least. I still recommend you completely rebuild it, same as I did the guy that bought the S5 from me. You see all the problems he's having trying to avoid a rebuild :)

[Shadow24v]

lol, maybe i can do a quick and dirty rebuild, gaskets and oil control rings. it seems to run fine other than smoking up a storm :)

probably won't get to change the MOP over til the weekend though

[NoDOHC]

Just read the FSM, if everything is in spec according to that, put it back in. (It is only fair to warn you that apex seals are $70.00 each at the dealer and should be replaced if out of spec.)

[TehMonkay]

rotaryaviation.com

Make sure you get their race apex seal springs or some oem mazda ones though.

[Shadow24v]

well, ive been thinking:

if the MOP isn't the problem and im going to have to pull the motor apart to do oil seals, i was wondering if i could switch to S5 N/A E-shaft, counterweights and rotors and the S5 VDI intake while retaining S4 electronics and computer.

I ask as there is an S5 N/A in the local J-yard that i was thinking of snagging for spare parts like irons and rotor housings, but if i can get the lighter higher compression rotors and the better intake while im at it, why not?

is this feasible or am i out of my mind? lol

[TehMonkay]

Yeah, it's possible, as long as you don't need emissions, then it's a little trickier. Only thing you'll have problem with is the S4 water temp sender won't fit in an S5 NA iron and the s5 sensor displays the wrong temp so you'll want an aftermarket gauge.

[Shadow24v]

ahh, ill have to keep that in mind. depending on whether the S4 irons are ok or not, the S5 internals will fit regardless right?

[My5ABaby]

There's no way the OMP is causing that. Even stuck wide open the amount of oil they inject is minimal. According to the FSM it's up to .25cc/2000rpm/5 minutes. Even stuck open and forcing more through due to pressure I can't see more than 1 cc/2000rpm/5 minutes.