200 hp questions?

[Nopis1O]

Backround
Hey you guys im going to be running a 13b na with ITB's megasquirt, and probably a large street port. im hoping after its all said in done i will have around 200hp with other mods. my question is right now im not SP and im just seeing what i can get out of itb's.

Question. What kinda of Hp is safe with the stock Fuel pump and injectors and at what point should i upgrade. im thinkin for 200 or so a wall bro 255 and a bit larger injectors would be fine but what do you guys think?

THanks

[My5ABaby]

You'd roughly be pushing 80% duty cycle on the 460cc's at 200hp. You could just get the TII injectors and fuel pump.

[RotaryProphet]

If you're doing the Megasquirt tuning yourself, just keep an eye on your duty cycles, and you'll be fine. As a stop-gap measure, you can adjust the fuel pressure regulator (for ITBs, you are changing the regulator, no?) and bump the pressure up a bit. 60psi or so should see you a reasonable increase in injector flow, but settle on a flow rate before you start tuning.

[Flooder]

I would get the TII injectors, they are 550cc and you'd be running less duty cycle with them. I wouldn't expect 200hp from a non-ported NA motor though. Even with the extra fuel.

I've done research on this before and it didn't seem worth the money. 200hp on an NA without a standalone is hard, if even possible on a non-ported motor.

[Ender]

200hp on an NA without a standalone is hard, if even possible on a non-ported motor.

What about with an OPEN HEADER!! :rofl: A great option if you're already deaf...

On a serious note though, if you haven't already gotten rid of your catalytic converter(s), do so because cats will hinder your efforts. If you can afford to you would do well to also get a high flow header, I hear Racing Beat makes good ones (and the rest of the exhaust if you want it). Sorry, I can't answer your actual question though, I'm a NA virgin (well, there was this one night stand, but I didn't take her home to mom and dad...).

[Flooder]

An open header wouldn't be the best option. I would get a racing beat header though. And then do a 2.25" or a 2.5" single exit exhaust.

[Nopis1O]

yes i plan on a racing beat hearder. and i know not to expect 200 non ported. if you read my OP i said once it has a large SP light weight clutch flywheel and other misc. odds and ends i would like to be right around 200.

[djmtsu]

FYI- you will only need the 550's for secondaries. No reason to have a pig rich idle.

[Whizbang]

the exhaust and the porting are going to be the two things that will really make that number happen and they have to compliment each other.

[Rotary#10]

kinda like peanutbutter and jelly mmm mmm !

[Max777]

I dunno, I really want to see what my motor will get after the car is done and the rtek is tuned, to give a baseline for Bobby's (nop1stons) itb setup? I'm sure that whatever I get, a proper itb setup, full standalone, porting, and good tuning will make more, and I'm shooting for hopefully 150 whp? Ludwig told me not to set my sights on a number, but I think 150 is safe to hope for with an S5 motor, full exhaust, no emissions and a rtek? :D

[drewski86]

You say you plan on getting a Racing Beat header but you haven't said which one. The street header is a bit short for stock ports, and will be worse if you port the exhaust. I would suggest the road race header collected shortly after the flange(will vary depending on your ports and peak RPM) or the AWR header which is built for streetported road race cars.

I think 150 is safe to hope for with an S5 motor, full exhaust, no emissions and a rtek? :D

If the motor is in good condition you should not have a problem breaking 160whp. My 180k mile S4 motor was right around 160whp with stock ecu.

[Whizbang]

a premade generic header will probably not be suited to max your max power goals.

[Flooder]

I made around 160 wheel in my S5. It's not unattainable at all. Especially with an ITB setup.

[Roen]

ISC Full Exhaust system is the best for power, but it's the loudest system. It's usually made for track only cars but if you really want the power number, then be prepared for a lot of noise violation tickets.

200 whp will still be tough with a large SP, ITB's and a Racing Beat Exhaust.

I made 161 whp using a GTUs with a K&N Drop-In Filter Replacement, Racing Beat Collected Header, Racing Beat Pre-Silencer, Racing Beat Cat-back and Rtek, with fuel and timing tuning on the dyno.

Run 4 x 720 if you're going to change the injectors, no reason to pussyfoot with 550's unless you get a good deal with them. Since you have a megasquirt and you'll be tuning from scratch, you can just turn down the duty cycle at idle or anywhere else you need to lean out the fuel curve. I'd also get a pump as a precaution, because the last thing you want to do is run out of fuel.

[djmtsu]

ITB's+550cc primary/720cc secondary+Large SP+full race exhaust+Megasquirt+REALLY GOOD TUNE=200whp

[drewski86]

A. A "large" streetport is unnecessary. A well done mild streetport will get the job done and have better midrange.

B. Do not get 720cc injectors. 550cc injectors will be more than enough and 460's will work if you know what you're doing. I know someone that did 175whp on I believe 330cc injectors and made better power than the 460's. This was a stock port motor.

[Flooder]

720 is a lot of fuel.

[classicauto]

Contact Logan @ Defined Autoworks about how to make 200+whp N/A :):)

[Roen]

A. A "large" streetport is unnecessary. A well done mild streetport will get the job done and have better midrange.

B. Do not get 720cc injectors. 550cc injectors will be more than enough and 440's will work if you know what you're doing. I know someone that did 175whp on I believe 330cc injectors and made better power than the 440's. This was a stock port motor.

I know someone who ran out of fuel at 197 whp, I forgot if he was using 4 x 460 or 4 x 550, so I figure, if you have fuel management, how would 4 x 720 hurt anything if you can control duty cycle via the EMS?

I've also never seen a mild streetport hit 200 whp.

[classicauto]

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?p=8944914#post8944914

I don't know what's considered "mild" but this is certainly a streetport :)

(yea yea I know where I linked to)

[Roen]

To clarify, I spoke to the guy, on a decent streetport, he made 195 whp on 4 x 460 cc injectors before running out of fuel.

[drewski86]

Stock fuel pressure FTL!

I've also never seen a mild streetport hit 200 whp.

To be fair I haven't either, but how many people who have 'mild' streetports change the intake and exhaust to match the new porting and power band. Most keep the stock intake and a 'street' header at best. But with EP cars doing 230whp+ on 6port motors, given these are BIG streetports, I am pretty confident that a properly setup mild streetport will do 200whp. Properly setup is key here.

[Roen]

Those EP streetports aren't very civil either, considering, from what I've heard, they love their idle at 1300 rpms, which is almost bridgeport territory.

I just don't think a mild streetport (maybe 20-30% more port area) will flow enough for 200 whp. Maybe, maybe not.

Though, with an aftermarket intake manifold, you may be able to get 200 whp.

[Nopis1O]

I might go BP to hit the numbers im looking for. not sure yet. its not a DD just a fun auto cross/ weekend cruiser but i do drive it in the summer often and dont want a super loud exhaust(if at all possible but i will sacrifice if its laying power.) but i believe where ever i decide to get my porting done i would like to have a custom exhaust that would match porting. anyone know a really good roto shop in the midwest. looked at aspec but im not sure. might just break down and try to get kevin landers to do it around this time next year if he is avalible.
Also if i do go bp i think i pretty much loose all street drivablility correct?

[Roen]

You'll get a high, lopey idle, poor light throttle and poor city gas mileage, but beyond that, it's tolerable for some people.

[RETed]

...this is why I hate threads like this.

To the OP...just build the damn thing and THEN brag about what you built.

The 200hp (at the wheels) mark has been one of those lofty goals a lot of people talk about but never attain.
So far, it's been a lot of theorizing and / or knowing of a car that someone else built.

I suggest the OP do more research first - you sound really lost on what you want to do.

Seriously, if you've never been in a turbo 13B, you really should.
High power NA 13B's are usually only reserved for "spec racing".


-Ted

[Nopis1O]

...this is why I hate threads like this.

To the OP...just build the damn thing and THEN brag about what you built.

The 200hp (at the wheels) mark has been one of those lofty goals a lot of people talk about but never attain.
So far, it's been a lot of theorizing and / or knowing of a car that someone else built.

I suggest the OP do more research first - you sound really lost on what you want to do.

Seriously, if you've never been in a turbo 13B, you really should.
High power NA 13B's are usually only reserved for "spec racing".







-Ted

HA. Do more research? isnt this thread just that? Im asking questions on other peoples opions of there sp and bp? dont think i have done the same with turbo guys to? And your right i am lost on what i want to do hints all the questions. thanks for your un asked for uneducated response. You probly know what your cars but in this case your ignorance is just shining threw. If you dont like the thread theres a cool little x button on the top right. c ya.

i think im going to go SP and hope for the best and see what the dyno reveals.

[RETed]

You...obviously...are very new to this.
This has been discussed a bazillion times already.
Maybe not on here, but I'm sure you know how to use Google?

The same goes with with bridge ports...

So we just wasted 3 pages worth of discussion that just came back to what I suggested - build the damn car and see what it dynos.

Oh, and if it's not obvious by now...
Don't try and run a BP on the stock ECU.
There is no mention of an aftermarket EMS other than an MS - I don't consider the MS a real stand-alone EMS.
BP motors also would require upgrading the oil system and possibly bearings just to spin it to those ungodly RPM's.
Trying to run a BP under stock redlines (less than 8kRPM) is almost a waste of time.
Radical port motors, which include BP's, require very free flowing exhaust systems.
Free flowing exhuasts usually mean very loud exhausts.


-Ted

[Fidelity101]

the exhaust and the porting are going to be the two things that will really make that number happen and they have to compliment each other.

followed by tuning

[Flooder]

I agree with Ted. Most of the time I would just skip over a thread like this because a lot of NA owners have never been in a turbo rotary and do not understand how easily a turbo can make the power goals that they're looking for. I mean, why spend a couple of thousand dollars on a 200whp NA rotary when you could spend the same amount on a turbo rotary and make 350whp.

[Roen]

One legitimate reason is classing issues for competition.

But for a street car, it's always better for the dollar to go turbo than to spend money on a high power NA.