Bridge Port / Coolant Seal Question

[staticpat]

No Limit Industries is helping me get a half bridge motor running. It was built by a reputable shop, and has like 100 miles on it. The motor is installed in the car now, and we were about to install the intake manifold/carb setup. One of the guys stuck his finger into the intake ports and felt something out of place.

It looks like there's a little piece of gasket material hanging into the intake port. When we felt inside the other ports, they also had some material. I assume it is one of the water seals, that no longer has a place to seat because of the porting. I don't want to rip it out for fear that the whole seal will come with it. I don't want to leave it because it seems like an obstruction to flow.

I don't know enough about the porting procedures to know if this is bad or not. Any tips/advice/information would be greatly appreciate it. I'll call the builder this afternoon to get his opinion on it.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9191/52339927qe7.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8660/68295064ij6.jpg

[drewski86]

If the seal is hanging out like that, it will need to be replaced. Otherwise you will have one hell of a smoke screen when you run it. I would pull it apart and find out why the seal fell out like that in the first place and resolve it. Do you know what year motor this is?

[Whizbang]

yea that is bad news

[To_Slow]

WoW... Soory, that looks bad. Replace, take the engine apart. You might need to change more that just the water seals...

Good luck

[Fidelity101]

reputable shop huh? where was this at so I know to never take my block there.

[classicauto]

"you fucked up" - Tony Montana :)

[-xlr8planet-]

I read over at no pistons, that some guys did it 2 different ways

a. put a lil screw to stop the coolant seal

b. let it sit, and then when its hangin out like yours, cut whats not needed

The engine might still be built correctly

[Fidelity101]

how did the motor get 100 miles on it? were you there to experience it personally?

[RETed]

It was built by a reputable shop,

Why don't you tell us who this shop is and save us from doing the same mistake...


-Ted

[staticpat]

People on here are jumping to conclusions. I'm not mad or trying to trash anyone's work, I just wanted some more insight into the bridgeport. XLR8 actually posted some useful information, thanks for that. I now know that the seal in question will blow out like that over time.

I know the builder and the previous engine owner. It was ran for low miles. but it was in a racecar, so it was ran hard. The builder has offered to take apart the motor and reseat the seal. He didn't have to do that and I appreciate it.

The shop is fine, it wasn't a build problem and I have no problem with the builder. It apparently is the nature of the beast. Now I just need to decide whether to trim the excess seal or pull the motor for overhaul.

[drewski86]

Were the seals in the same condition when the previous owner ran it? Did it smoke at all?

[staticpat]

I haven't talked with the previous owner yet. I'll find out.

[classicauto]

The shop is fine, it wasn't a build problem and I have no problem with the builder. It apparently is the nature of the beast. Now I just need to decide whether to trim the excess seal or pull the motor for overhaul.

No one here is trying to knock the shop (at least not me :) ) but trust me when I tell you a coolant seal in a new engine poking out like that ***IS NOT THE NATURE OF THE BEAST***

Whether the engine is stock, street, or bridge ported, there's no reason ( otehr then pinching it on assembly) for the coolant seal to dislodge from its oring land. If its properly seated and the engien is assembeled, its physically impossible for the seal to leave the groove unless the groove rots away, or the seal is destroyed by heat or age.

Engine may have ran (and burnt coolant like a mofo) but it is absolutely not normal, or a nature of the beast scenario with a BP.

EDIT: Check this thread http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=740534&highlight=porting

Its got some nice pics of some special bridge ports, you'll notice how the coolant oring land is left intact so the seeals stay in place. If they've ported into that land, thats another reason the seal may have dislodged, and it won't make fora happily running bridgey either.

I used to run a 1/2 bridge engine, and although I faced alot of issues, coolant seals falling in the intake ports was never one of them.

[staticpat]

Okay thanks, I am getting a clearer idea now. But I am still unsure how the seal seats/does not seat with the port work. I may run the motor and see whether or not it eats coolant.

I found a picture of the internals after the port work was initially done. To me it looks like what you just described, where the seal still has a place to sit and shouldn't leave the groove.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2752/70140694b1rkjvtgdz9.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9279/70140694b1rkjvtgfd6.jpg

[Whizbang]

coolant seal maybe have move outof the groove during assembly.

[classicauto]

I found a picture of the internals after the port work was initially done. To me it looks like what you just described, where the seal still has a place to sit and shouldn't leave the groove.

Yep, if the pics you posted are the plates in the engine with no additional porting, the inner o-ring groove is still 100% intact, and therefore the seal should be in place there.

As mentioned previously, its likely (especially given the pics) that the seal fell out of the groove druing assembly. Its an easy enough mistake to make, but one that should be caught as soon as it happens and corrected - not after assembly and 100 miles of useage.

Hope you get it sorted, keep us posted.

[RETed]

I'd still like to know who did this.
I do not want to be paying money to a shop who can't do BASIC things like this.
If you can't be making sure the o-rings are in place, you should not be charging people for rebuilds.
The procedure is the same for any rotary engine rebuild, and it is not specific to BP's.


-Ted

[jtbshaw]

The fellow that built the engine doesn't really have a shop any longer. The builder is a very knowledgeable rotary person and has been building these things longer than most people on this board have been alive. Everyone makes mistakes at times, and this would be the first of his builds that I have ever seen anything close to this. I've been knowing this builder now almost 10 years. Phil, I believe, has known him longer.

The photos that Pat placed above are the actual housings and porting in this engine. The reason this engine only has approximately 100 miles is, like Pat described, it came out of a dedicated track car. This engine was in a very good friends Miata and the car was a trailer queen that only ran autoX. The engine was only ran for this past season. My friend has decided to go into a different class next year, so out went the rotary & IDA.

Hope that helps shed some light on things. If Pat wants to state who the builder is, then have at it. I personally don't feel that it is necessary.

Todd B.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

^So this is Phil's builder eh? Ok, yeah mistakes happen and as we grow older, they will happen. Best of luck to the OP.

[jtbshaw]

I don't know if I would say that he is Phil's builder, but I know Phil has used him in the past and will be using him on an upcoming project. I've been working on and building rotaries since 1986 and this guy has been doing it much longer than I have been. He knows what he is doing.

We started the engine on Friday and it runs fine at the moment. Only some seat time will tell.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Oh ok, I just know Phil talks about an engine builder down there that is doing his 20Bs.

[jtbshaw]

This is the same builder.

[dakar318]

oh ok so this was branch's motor. i should have bought it as a back up for the rx3.

but now the 3 is getting the 13bt finally

[12arotary]

just curious but did the engine ever get broken in? I've always followed the slow break in procedure of first 250 miles keep it under 3500rpm then go from there

[staticpat]

We ran the car and it seemed fine. The car is incapacitated until I get a driveshaft. Should know something real soon.