NRS ceramic corner seals [Archive]

glassman

12-10-2008, 12:37 PM

NRS ceramic corner seals are on their way down under for extensive testing. Pete from Rice Racing will be testing the ceramic corner seals in conjunction with NRS 2mm 2pc apex seals. These will be installed in a new engine for Pete's SP. Other tests will be done later by Pineapple Racing including static drag tests comparing stock corner seals to the ceramic corner seals. Then of course they will go into an engine for further testing.
NRS hard faced c.s. springs will be used to ensure the tests will go the distance. Custom corner seals springs will be made also for testing as we know we can increase the pressure for better performance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/NRS2mm3mmcornersealswspring.jpg

Hard faced c.s. springs heat treated with an extra little twist.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/NRSHardFacedCSSprings.jpg

Whizbang

12-10-2008, 12:51 PM

guesstimate on price once they go on sale?

glassman

12-10-2008, 01:09 PM

Retail should be around $625.00 USD for a set of 12. Trade pricing will be available as it is with the ceramic apex seals.

ErnieT

02-18-2009, 10:21 PM

Sven
Any updates on these? Also how are the 2mm seals doing? Will I get the same results using them as I did with the 3mm?
Thanks,
Ernie

glassman

02-18-2009, 10:41 PM

Sven
Any updates on these? Also how are the 2mm seals doing? Will I get the same results using them as I did with the 3mm?
Thanks,
Ernie

Hey Ernie, good to see you over here :) I have a new customer that will be testing a set of the 3mm corner seals in a very high reving 13B along with 3mm 1pc ceramic apex seals. Then there is Pete in AU who will be running 2mm corner seals and 2mm 2pc apex seals. We should have something soon from Pete. Frankly I'm dying to see how they are going to perform. In fact I'm going to email him now and see where he is at. I'll post any details as soon as I know.

ErnieT

02-18-2009, 10:44 PM

You want me as a test mule, let me know :)

glassman

02-18-2009, 10:56 PM

You know.......I just happen to have a 3mm set here, $500 plus springs and they're yours!

ErnieT

02-18-2009, 10:59 PM

Can you call me tomarrow? I forgot how to get you payment.

glassman

02-18-2009, 11:07 PM

Yup, will do

ErnieT

02-22-2009, 10:25 PM

Sven
Can't wait to get them!

glassman

04-02-2009, 05:26 PM

The race is on!! Who will be the first to make history?? The first in the world to run ceramic corner seals. Ernie T, Pete in AU or the mystery test bed (engine built to run 13,000 rpm)?? All are on track for around the same time for completion so either way we will have some results soon :) I spoke to Ray today from PFS and he is about two weeks away in getting Ernie's engine finished. All the best to all of them for thier hard work and participation in testing something that has never been done. Right now I'm working on making the thicker c.s. springs for more pressure and we'll add these to the mix later on.

Meanwhile here's a little teaser preview vid of the NRS sponsored 2mm 2pc 4 rotor BMI RX8 time attack car. More vids to come.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/?action=view&current=BMIRX84Rotor_0002.flv

glassman

04-10-2009, 11:27 AM

This just in from Pete:
Hello Sven,

Here are the compression results, along with applicable notes.

Engine: RR street port (new), 2 piece NRS Apex seal, Ceramic NRS corner seal. 9.0:1 engine compression ratio

Condition, Ambient temperature 22 deg C, 101.5kpa pressure

*0km on engine, tested from engine stand*

Rear Rotor average (picture include) 128psi

Front Rotor (picture included) 132psi

Comments: This is a noticeable increase in cranking compression over other same engines (new, same port timing but with one piece NRS seals and OEM corner seals)… On average the one piece RR engine develops about 95psi compression, this engine you can see is at the 130psi range (OEM sealed engines on same specification develop about 105~110psi).

This compression figure will go up once the seals are bedded in and when the engine is tested at operating temperature. It was tested without manifolds hooked up, but the influence give the very low air flow rate will be negligible. Further tests will be conducted after the engine has be initially fired up and then again after the run in period.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/RRtestengine5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/RRtestengine6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/compfront.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/comprear.jpg

glassman

04-10-2009, 01:50 PM

I almost forgot, a set of 2mm ceramic corner seals and hard faced c.s. springs are on their way to Pineapple Racing for the static drag testing. Rob will make a fixture to test the drag created by the steel corner seals and we will compare this to the drag created by the ceramic corner seals. He figures he will need a couple of weeks to get the fixture done. This should give us a baseline to quantify and compare to the real world results. The data will also help us to quantify any changes made in spring pressure as we will be trying a couple of different spring thicknesses for better sealing and rotor stability. Then they will be installed into an engine and all the data collected will be put to the test. There is a real possibility these corner seals could find their way into the SpeedSource RX8. We will present this opportunity to them when the time comes. Their engines consistantly produce power within 1 or 2 hp from one to the next so this would be an ideal situation to prove the benifit of ceramic corner seals.

I will post pics and results from Rob when they become available.

C. Ludwig

04-10-2009, 02:55 PM

Boostmaniac

04-16-2009, 06:08 AM

Sven, if the ceramics show a significant improvement in drag relative to steel, is it feasible to produce a side seal in ceramic? Seems I've seen documentation (SAE papers? I forget, might be wrong) that Mazda had tried ceramic side seals.

I had that same thought when he started making the Apex seals. I wonder what a full ceramic seal engine could do....

glassman

04-18-2009, 12:03 PM

A ceramic side seal would be very difficult to make. The part is so thin and it requires a good amount of pressure to grind the material, I'm afraid it would dissintegrate.

Phoenix7

04-18-2009, 12:18 PM

wow, 130psi! Keep it up man, you're the forefront of the future of the rotary!!

glassman

04-18-2009, 12:49 PM

Thanks! It will be nice to see how this does after some run in and a hot comp test.

glassman

04-28-2009, 10:06 AM

I just talked to Ernie and Ray (PFS) should have his car on the dyno by Friday. We will have some results very soon ;)

glassman

05-31-2009, 10:31 AM

We should have some results soon from Ernie, they havent run the engine yet with the corner seals but it shouldn't be much longer!

In about a weeks time I will have some thicker c.s. springs. The FD spring is 0.016" thick, I am having some 0.020" and 0.025" springs made for testing. Likely we will not hard face them just yet, that can be done after when we have a better idea which thickness is best. I will supply Ernie with a set of each thickness and the next time the engine is out he can throw in the 0.020" thick springs followed the next time with the 0.025" thick. Unfortunately it will be a lot of work just to change the springs but it's the only way to know for sure what can be done and what works best. I'll put up pics when the springs are finished.

glassman

06-25-2009, 06:29 PM

Ernie might get the engine fired by this weekend and he has promised to let us know how it goes on the dyno. I cant hardly wait to get his impression of how the corner seals act. With the bigger turbo and now a bridge port we don't have a direct comparison so we'll see what the #'s look like anyhow.

ErnieT

06-25-2009, 08:00 PM

Engine is fired up and will hit the dyno tomorrow. Would have happened to day, but the shop lost power around noon and didn't come back on till 6pm.

Herblenny

06-25-2009, 10:45 PM

Ernie,

Take some video of your dyno.. Can't wait to see the numbers!

Bryan@BNR

06-26-2009, 09:37 AM

Good luck Ernie.

I have a good friend that studies bigger turbochargers. If you want me and him to get you a turbo for 1000 plus hp let me know. If you want 2500 Hp let me know hahaha.

Bryan@BNR

Boostmaniac

07-12-2009, 08:56 PM

update?

Monkman33

12-04-2009, 11:33 AM

update?

ErnieT

12-04-2009, 04:04 PM

Have not been on this forum for a bit so I appoligize. The car is running great. In fact I won my first event at Englishtown a couple weeks ago beating a Supra in the finals. I ran a 9.87. My car just barely made 700rwhp at 30psi. I can turn it up more, but I like the idea of having the motor around for awhile. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5jADKzessw

EJayCe996

12-04-2009, 07:27 PM

thewird

12-26-2009, 10:44 PM

So whats the word on these seals :). I'm opening my motor up which currently has your 3mm one piece ceramic seals thats been running for 32,000 km. I'm going to be putting 3mm 2-piece seals and I would like to put in ceramic corner seals if possible too. So whats the status of the corner seals? Thanks.

thewird

glassman

12-28-2009, 03:36 PM

I have just 2 sets of 3mm 2pc seals left. Do you need a set soon? Might be a good time now!

The corner seals are on hold for now until I can get some data from Rob @ Pineapple on the 2mm set he has. We had a couple of failures with the initial two sets used so we want to start from scratch with static drag tests in a fixture and then increase loads via thicker springs to see where we can pressure to and still not exceed the factory seal for drag. Then Rob will clearance them to the rotors that will be built into an engine from there. The corner seals as made seem to fit on the tight side in new rotors (some slots can vary as much as 0.001" on the small side) so we want to eliminate any issues with binding in the slot. There were too many unanswered questions with the first two uses so Rob will head up all further testing and documentation. Likely they will be used along side factory apex seals in the first build so that they are the only change made. I will try and get an answer from Rob as to when he can start testing. He has the factory springs hard faced with the extra twist but I still need to get him the thicker springs we made and I think we'll get him to use the standard FD CS spring for best comparison. He can try the hard faced ones later.

Happy trails,
Sven

thewird

12-28-2009, 04:03 PM

Yah, I was planning to get the motor rebuilt over the winter but my builder went to Florida for ~3 weeks. Also, was talking to an RX-8 owner who wanted to rebuild his engine with ceramic 2-piece 3mm seals (which is the reason for my questions in the other thread). So I guess that would account for both and I should order soon before someone else does. What is the current pricing on the seals with springs? Would it be cheaper to get it through my builder ^_^

I'd be interested to help out in testing if I can. Dave from Mazdee's is the one who builds my motors and from our talks you guys know each other somewhat well. So when we open up motors, we could relay any particular information your looking for.

The 32,000 km were put on in about a year so both Dave and I are very interested in what the internals of the motor look like with the ceramic seals considering I've been running 16-17 PSi (pump gas) on the track for 30 minutes sessions with 1850*F EGT's, over 15 track days this season, and the later ones were at 20 PSi with water injection and a touch of meth occasionally. Also, drove the car down to the deals gap in North Carolina and then to Florida so its had lots of long drives. Also, ran exclusively on the OMP only and only added some unmetered amounts of 2-stroke into the gas for track days.

thewird

glassman

12-28-2009, 05:44 PM

We could possibly work something out for testing with Dave after Pineapple is finished but I would have to see what I have for 3mm CS. I will be looking forward to seeing pics of your engine on tear down ;)

The 3mm 2pc seals are $1150.25 + GST.....it doesn't get better than that for 2pc ceramic seals :) The springs are $140.00 + GST

Total for both sets with springs $2580.50 + 129.03 = $2709.53 plus shipping.

LMK if you want to go ahead and we'll sort out payment and shipping.
Thanks

thewird

12-28-2009, 07:52 PM

Yah, I do but the RX-8 owner would have to order them for himself. I don't have his contact and Dave is on holidays so I can't let him know until he comes back. Hopefully they don't get sold by then. Worst case he has to wait for your next batch. So please let me know how I would proceed with my order. Thanks.

Also, forgot to mention these seals are your spotted seals that were in the oven too long ^_^. I'd like to say I love them.

Reason being when I was down at the gap, I was running a fuel pump backup wire which was too thin since my relay died. So the wire overheated and caused a fuel pressure drop causing me to go into a really bad lean condition. We had stopped at the bottom after a good while of going up and down the gap. When we left we all opened it up. I heard a strange sound which I realized after was AUDIBLE detonation, I looked down at my wideband while I was still WOT and saw 14.x AFR @ 16 pounds of boost. When I finally let off 2-3 seconds later, I immediately assumed engines gone. But to my surprise it sounded normal. I then tried it again to confirm and the same thing happened so I puttered it back to the cabin until I could fix the fuel issue. This was at around 5,000-10,000 km in the life of the engine. It has continued to run fine all season and now has 32,000 km. There is nothing wrong the engine, me and Dave are just curious on the internals. Anyway, just wanted to say I love your seals.

However, I always wonder if I had the same seals but in 2-piece if if they would have been so resilient. Thoughts?

thewird

glassman

12-28-2009, 08:27 PM

However, I always wonder if I had the same seals but in 2-piece if if they would have been so resilient. Thoughts?
thewird

You know that is a really good question, I often wondered the same myself. The 2pc seal is subjected to a lot different operating conditions as opposed to the 1pc seal which floats and never touches the plates. The only obvious difference from a design point would be where the 45 degree split is between the pcs. But from an operating perspective it could be a whole different ball game. Some claim the 1pc seal is overall stronger for this reason.

NRS 2pc seals are like the old Rotary Truck type where the wedge sits under the main bar and never contacts the rotor housing. This will give full positive sealing from the get go without having to gouge the rotor housing to establish contact with the main bar. This also makes the tip of the main bar much stronger and less prone to chipping off as it no longer comes to a razor point.

glassman

12-28-2009, 08:51 PM

Also, forgot to mention these seals are your spotted seals that were in the oven too long ^_^. I'd like to say I love them.
thewird

GREAT!! :) Glad to get some feedback on those!

thewird

12-29-2009, 02:18 AM

Oh, I forgot another test of endurance these seals prevailed through. In 2008 just before the winter when I got my new engine with the seals. The turbo oil seals let loose and all the oil drained out of the motor. I ignored the OEM oil pressure gauge and kept driving. 10 minutes later the car started losing power (I was driving on the highway) and I noticed it was blowing a ton of smoke out the back. Pulled over and long story short most of the engine was toast. Rotors, bearings, side seals, endplates etc. were all junk on a 2,000 km rebuild.

But surprisingly the rotor housings and seals were perfectly fine! This was great news for me since the rotor housing were brand new with 2,000 km on them and same with the seals which are mucho money.

Here's some pics of the destruction if you care to look...

http://thewirdsdomain.com/rx7/engine/11-07-08_1220.jpg
http://thewirdsdomain.com/rx7/engine/11-07-08_1221.jpg
http://thewirdsdomain.com/rx7/engine/11-07-08_1313.jpg
http://thewirdsdomain.com/rx7/engine/11-07-08_1314.jpg

thewird

Monkman33

01-29-2010, 01:44 AM

Any update on the Corner seals?

glassman

01-29-2010, 12:02 PM

Not yet, I still need to get some of the heavier springs to Rob for the testing. These should be ready this coming week and then we can get started.

glassman

01-29-2010, 12:05 PM

Just spoke to the shop doing the springs and they will be ready for the first of next week. Hopefully Rob can get right on it. Will post when I have more news.

Monkman33

02-10-2010, 01:18 AM

This is great news!

howard coleman

02-10-2010, 09:30 AM

love my NRS apex seals/springs.

i recently dis-assembled my motor that ran in 09 and found the rotor housings literally looking exactly like they did when i assembeled the motor. no trace of wear anywhere.
the seals/springs looked unused. the motor was making 507 SAE rwhp at 20 psi w around 20% methanol.

the motor was steadily gaining compression during the year and could have easily reassembled as was. i took it down to swap the rear iron for an automatic rear plate as i am switching to a T56 for my 200 mph run at the Texas Mile.

thanks NRS!

howard coleman

www.colemanprecisionrotaries.com

TitaniumTT

02-10-2010, 09:55 AM

I often wondered what the reasoning was with the 2 piece mazda design that needs to gouge the housing in order to make a total seal. The older mazda truck seals and the NRS seals from a function point would seem to seal better with less damage to the rotor housing.

Howard, are you running the facoty MOP setup or premixing in the fuel tank? What brand and what ratio?

glassman

02-10-2010, 11:09 AM

howard coleman

02-10-2010, 09:04 PM

"are you running the factory MOP setup or premixing in the fuel tank? What brand and what ratio?"

i do not run the factory EOP. i also remove it from all motors i build. i mix 1/2 oz per gallon for street and 1 oz per gallon for dyno and track.

i use Super Tech (Walmart) brand 2 cycle oil.

love it.

BTW, my NRS seals are one piece.

hc

glassman

02-10-2010, 09:45 PM

Hey Howard, could you put up some pics of those rotor housings and the apex seals? If you could put it on the "test results" thread that would be great.

howard coleman

02-12-2010, 09:50 PM

after a year of pounding on the motor... 507 SAE. zero chatter

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6050/029li.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/i/029li.jpg/)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/307/015p.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/015p.jpg/)

uncleaned just as the came out of my motor...

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7654/050af.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/i/050af.jpg/)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9633/047h.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/i/047h.jpg/)

gorgeous, don't you think?

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1986/051.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/i/051.jpg/)

i wish i could better convey how perfect the crown is...

hopefully these will power me past 200 mph at the Texas Mile in October.

howard

www.colemanprecisionrotaries.com

glassman

02-12-2010, 10:38 PM

Thanks Howard, looks great!

I've resized and gamma corrected a couple of the pics below

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/HowardColeman2mm1pchousing2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/HowardColeman2mm1pchousing.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/HowardColeman2mm1pcseals.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/glassmancanada/NRS/HowardColeman2mm1pcseals2.jpg

Smiley:)

09-16-2011, 08:50 AM

any updates?

glassman

10-05-2011, 04:01 PM

Not really at this piont. We are testing some other parts now and will possibly try to incorporate them in the testing later on if all goes well. The corner seals were very tight on new rotors, even when made to factory OD spec. They were fine on used rotors though. Rob from Pineapple will make sure they have enough clearance by boring the cs slot to give them the best chance.