s4 na to s5 or s5 na swap? [Archive]

Fidelity101

11-19-2008, 02:31 PM

so my old s4 motor is lone gone now and I just picked up an s5 motor from an 89 with 98k on it, came with harness and manifolds.

Initially I was just expecting to get the short block and swap manifolds, but its got the harness to it and everything.

I plan on running premix regardless, but the main question is what would suit me better? using my s4 electronic control system on my s5 motor with s4 manifolds or using the s5 setup entirely (I have an RB header, so no use of the stock exh manifold thank god)

and here is the kicker, earlier in the fall someone decided to smash my passenger side window out and totally smash my spedo/odometer so I would likely get a new cluster anyways and thats have the battle, all I would need is an ECU, I want to get rid of the power windows anyways and go to manual.

I'd assume I would also need the s5 idiot cluster too.

am I forgetting anything?

also, the hybrid intake manifold swap I know of people using the s5 UIM intake on the s4 LIM using the VDI for more power, but is this for just s4 blocks? should I go with a hybrid intake manifold or just use the S5 one?

Whizbang

11-19-2008, 02:55 PM

my vert has the S5 manifold on an S4 lower and it sure as hell makes less power....

drewski86

11-19-2008, 03:25 PM

my vert has the S5 manifold on an S4 lower and it sure as hell makes less power....

Is your VDI functioning? Did you tune for the new manifold? If you're making less power there is something wrong.

WE3RX7

11-19-2008, 04:25 PM

S5 and S4 dash harnesses are totally different, you cant just swap in an S5 cluster into an S4 car. You need S5 everything basically. If you have access to S5 cluster, dash harness, logicon, ecu, efi harness, engine and power harness I'd swap it all, otherwise - just use what you've got and keep it s4.

you can use the s5 block w/ s4 manifolds and accessories and efi w/out trouble. The s5 is slightly higher compression which will be a bonus by itself.

Flooder

11-19-2008, 05:47 PM

Don't quote me on this, but im pretty sure the ports dont line up exactly right when putting s4 manifolds on an S5 and vice versa. And I know the timing is different on each motor. Keep the motor S5 and use the S5 ecu. I wouldn't worry about the gauge cluster until you get the car running. You can re-pin the gauge cluster to work.

As far as what else you will need I think the pressure sensor and TPS if the motor didnt come with all the electronics and accessories on it already.

Fidelity101

11-19-2008, 07:29 PM

the efi/ecu harness came with every sensor but the air flow sensor, ecu, TPS. I have an s4 one but I know I will need an s5 one.

I know I can't just swap the cluster in, worst case scenario I have to re pin it.

My gauge cluster is fucked, I'll post a picture of it later. besides that the accessory gauges don't work on it except fuel and volts.

basically I need a new cluster regardless, might as well get an s5 one, it would be easier.

I'm short the logicon and the dash harness, I don't have a stereo or anything and I rarely use my HVAC controls, mostly will just keep it on defrost.

I could probably run 2 ecu's and have the S4 one control the dash/hvac controls.

and this is what I'm prepping for my car right now, I got to down to keg + flywheel

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3169/dscn0783po1.jpg

got all that for 500.

I have a RB AL flywheel but right now I need an s5 counterweight, I cant grind the s4 one down to the s5 weight spec unfortunately.

I got all winter to do everything so that makes it better, however I would like to get it runing for the winter so I can take it through the snow but there is always next winter.

but will I need an s5 starter too? I hope not

I'm going to run premix so I will just make a block off plate for the front cover and use the s5 front cover, also going to get rid of the extra main pulley ribs that I don't use, ie PS and AC.

SpooledupRacing

11-20-2008, 05:59 AM

go with S5 block and S4 intake manifold so u dont have to swap out the ecu and engine harness etc..

this is a DIRECT drop in then and easy to deal with..

alos use the S4 front cover you have.. again makes things much easier.

Max777

11-20-2008, 09:54 AM

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2ndgen/techmenu.html

everything you need to know about it right there!

Flooder

11-20-2008, 01:55 PM

I have all the S5 na sensors that you'll need, as well as the gauge cluster if your interested. I wouldn't recommend running the s5 motor with s4 manifolds.

SpooledupRacing

11-20-2008, 02:04 PM

I have all the S5 na sensors that you'll need, as well as the gauge cluster if your interested. I wouldn't recommend running the s5 motor with s4 manifolds.

howcome.. thats totally acceptable..

87turbo_turtle

11-20-2008, 02:21 PM

yes you will need a new starter

WE3RX7

11-20-2008, 02:21 PM

I'm w/ spooledupracing.....

Go S5 block, S4 front cover and manifolds, including the TB. You can even run the mechanical OMP and still run a little extra premix for safety. Its a no brainer and will take the least amount of time/effort.

Once you get it in and running, if you feel like it, swap over to the S5 UIM.

SpooledupRacing

11-20-2008, 02:35 PM

yes S5 and S4 starters are different.

Whizbang

11-20-2008, 02:47 PM

yes S5 and S4 starters are different.

what exactly are the differences.

SpooledupRacing

11-20-2008, 02:50 PM

Eh I read that wrong S4 and S5 n/a they are the same. TURBO to n/a are different

Whizbang

11-20-2008, 02:51 PM

Eh I was wrong I think its turbo and n/a that are different.. NOT S4 and S5 n/a they are the same that I know for sure.

ah okay that makes sense. ive swapped S4 and S5 between before and they worked. I was curious if they had different cranking output or something

SpooledupRacing

11-20-2008, 02:54 PM

na I used my 86 starter on my 89 T2 engine even lol.. its the transmissions that are different..

Fidelity101

11-20-2008, 06:15 PM

Eh I read that wrong S4 and S5 n/a they are the same. TURBO to n/a are different

Perfect.

http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/2ndgen/techmenu.html

everything you need to know about it right there!

Bookmarked that site a while ago, good stuff :)

I have all the S5 na sensors that you'll need, as well as the gauge cluster if your interested. I wouldn't recommend running the s5 motor with s4 manifolds.
PM me

Yeah I am interested, I do hate the vane airflow sensor. I now plan to keep stock ports, do emissions block off and etc, cut down on the vacuum lines and such use my s4 ported and modified TB, get PR inserts, electric aux ports, but I'm only concerned with not using the BAC, since it didn't have one :(.

Do I need new coils too?

has anyone had experience with the electric aux ports conversion utilizing VDI, can I just put another t splice from where the 5/6th port solenoids open to the VDI solenoid

I am very technically inclined and have torn my car apart many different times so I'm not worried about the work.

SpooledupRacing

11-20-2008, 07:23 PM

coil will work on S5 S4 and turbo and na

Fidelity101

11-20-2008, 09:25 PM

Even better! I'm checking through my stuff and I'm missing the s5 alternator (since I can't use the s4 one), secondary fuel rail and injectors as well.

have those as well flooder?

would I also need an s5 fuse box?

Max777

11-21-2008, 12:03 AM

NoDOHC

11-21-2008, 12:10 AM

Yes, but the pulsation damper failures are a lot less common on the S5 primary fuel rail.

Whizbang

11-21-2008, 12:13 AM

Yes, but the pulsation damper failures are a lot less common on the S5 primary fuel rail.

they are also even less common on a car with the banjo bolt mod.

Max777

11-21-2008, 12:24 AM

they are also even less common on a car with the banjo bolt mod.

oh yeah, forgot to mention the banjo bolt, which you also CANT DO on the S5...

you know, all this talk, i think if I ever decide to get a coupe shell, I will go with an S4 car, it's lighter, simpler, and cheaper to fix.

Whizbang

11-21-2008, 12:27 AM

i dont see why you couldn't....make it work.....either by using an S4 rail or other means.

where there is a will (to not have engine fires) there is way (to not have engine fires)

Fidelity101

11-21-2008, 12:37 AM

Umm, dude, you dont realise just how much work you will need to do if you want to use the S5 cluster/esnsors/ecu in the car... you have to pull the dash, aquire a FULL S5 body harness, put a lot of it through a tiny hole in the firewall, and re-hook everything back up... then after that it's not guaranteed shit will work right.

Just stop being difficult, and do what everyone is telling you,

DO NOT CONVERT THE ELECTRONICS TO S5!

Shit will be much easier to do with the S4 electronics.

PS: I totally pulled and rewrapped my body harness, and let me tell you, it is a BITCH unless you really love wiring...

Also, S5 OMP is junk, S5 fuel rail is junk (cant replace just the FPR, need to get a whole rail) and there is generally some other stuff that makes me wish I had an S4 car...

okay, first of all you need to read the thread before commenting.

I will not be using an OMP, the s5 fuel rail doesn't have the same design as the s4 pulsation dampener, which is a plus and my s4 one still works fine.

Pulling the dash out takes about 45 minutes, I've swapped interiors on my car (all blue to all red) and taken out a few FC dashes, you get quicker every time you do it.

or I could re-pin the s5 NA cluster for the s4 harness and use the s4 ECU to run s4 logicon, dash, HVAC stuff, while the s5 runs the EFI. People do this with standalones often.

my s5 harness is in much better condition that my S4 regardless.

Max777

11-21-2008, 01:00 AM

Well, sorry for not reading... if you have prior experience that's great, i didn't know that...

Fidelity101

11-21-2008, 01:03 AM

Well, sorry for not reading... if you have prior experience that's great, i didn't know that...

from middle of page 2

I am very technically inclined and have torn my car apart many different times so I'm not worried about the work.

if you want s4 stuff so bad I might have a bunch of it for sale soon if your interested.

SpooledupRacing

11-21-2008, 06:01 AM

use the S4 alternator (if you are using the S4 ecu, harness, intake) I did.

Are you swapping to S5 ecu and harness or staying S4?

Fidelity101

11-21-2008, 06:13 PM

I'm gonna check out this local guy by me at home when I'm back for the holiday's he might have all the parts I need for the swap. I might swap completely over to s5 or use the s5 EFI and s5 ecu and have the s4 ECU to control the body electrical - re pin the s5 cluster for the s4 body harness.

NoDOHC

11-21-2008, 06:55 PM

I would prefer to leave the s5 alternator, my '86 had trouble keeping up with the rear defrost, heater, headlights and windshield wipers all at the same time while driving in 5th gear, I would have to downshift if the voltage started dropping. The s5 that I drive now has none of these problems.

I had an engine fire (minor) on my '86 at about 185,000 miles. That was the second pulsation damper. My '91 has 152,000 on the original PD without issue. The s5 PDs are better.

I will agree that the banjo bolt is a viable option, but I got an injector leak at about 194,000 miles (9,000 after the banjo bolt was installed) and the engine only started on one rotor, requiring injector replacement. I am not saying that 20 year old injectors can't fail on their own, but I will not personally install a banjo bolt on any of my cars (the '86 ran an s5 primary rail until it's demise at 199,000 miles from massive coolant seal failure).

If you are willing to go to the effort, the s5 components are almost all better. (Both are readily available on eBay, the 'other forum' and here.

Fidelity101

11-22-2008, 12:33 PM

I wanted to upgrade my alternator in the future anyways so it could hold the power of a front lightbar if need be.

I will be getting my injectors rebuilt/rebalanced for this "build"

shit, I should just make a build thread in the other forum now heh.

fuck it, I might as well go megasquirt, it would be just enough or so.

Flooder

11-24-2008, 08:43 PM

lol, all this anti-s5 talk is making me laugh. It's really not that hard to put an S5 motor into an S4 and make it run right, jesus.

Fidelity101

11-24-2008, 10:43 PM

lol, all this anti-s5 talk is making me laugh. It's really not that hard to put an S5 motor into an S4 and make it run right, jesus.

got that right, I just have many options at my disposal and all winter to get it done so, I'm excited. I'm doing my megasquirt research now and that may be the most viable option at the moment.

Flooder

11-25-2008, 03:16 PM

A megasquirt will make things easier thats for sure.

Fidelity101

11-25-2008, 05:31 PM

if I was a lazy ass I would just throw on the manifolds and such and let her rip but that isn't me

Flooder

11-25-2008, 05:49 PM

I say put the motor in with the correct manifolds, get the car running and worry about the chassis harness later.

Fidelity101

11-26-2008, 11:03 AM

I say put the motor in with the correct manifolds, get the car running and worry about the chassis harness later.

easier said than done, I may have to run it on the s4 harness/system temporarily due to budgetary constraints lol.

Flooder

11-26-2008, 02:14 PM

Wheres the budget constraint? You have the ecu, harness and the motor. What else do you need?

Fidelity101

11-27-2008, 04:46 PM

no I don't have the ECU.

I also need motor mounts, misc gaskets and hoses, pan baffle, fluids etc

I might have to temporarly run the s5 motor with s5 intake manifold (VDI and 5/6th wired open :( ) and use the s4 harness and such, but then I still need to find all the s4 block sensors and stuff.

oh and is the oil level sensor the same in s4 as the s5?

I wish I kept my s4 electrical stuff that goes into the irons.

fire85gslse

11-29-2008, 09:42 PM

I'm w/ spooledupracing.....
Go S5 block, S4 front cover and manifolds, including the TB. You can even run the mechanical OMP and still run a little extra premix for safety. Its a no brainer and will take the least amount of time/effort.
Once you get it in and running, if you feel like it, swap over to the S5 UIM.

What ^^^ said!