Lets talk aftermarket turbo manifolds.

[Whizbang]

I am torn on which route i want to go with a turbo manifold.

I am tempted to spend the money on a "commi"-fold from china but i know how they are quality wise. Bolt holes like to not be spaced well....

Then the option for finding a used HKS casr manifold comes up. They only seem to have new ones for the FD (figures)

Then there are places like Turblown who make VERY nice pieces, but at the cost of about two weeks pay...

Can anyone share their thoughts and experiences?

I need a turbo, so i might as well go T4.

[TehMonkay]

The rx7store.net manifold may look like it's the same as the chinese ones, but it's actually much better quality.

[Whizbang]

after looking at it, i would almost bet money that its a commi-fold.

[vex]

fab up your own. it's what the cool kids do. I'm honestly going this route because the turbo i'm putting on is MUCH larger than stock. Also makes things easier to fit my wastegate on and what not too.

[Whizbang]

i really don't WANT a huge ass turbo. Its just that hybird stuff seems to limit a lot of my options. For what its worth i really want to just get myself a used cast manifold im thinking.

[classicauto]

after looking at it, i would almost bet money that its a commi-fold.

It is :)

I'd recommend A-spec for a quality manifold. Only downside is for the FC the manifold is only avalable as a package with turbo wastegate downpipe lines/fittings/etc. Although it can be a pricey package altogether, its all super quality stuff that you'll need anyways for goign single. I purchased a 3574 kit in their august sale last year for about $2400.

EDIT: Noticed your last post. The cast stuff is also great, I've ran one for YEARS and loved it but wanted better spool up etc. If you're planning this route take note of the engine flange as I had a used one and needed to get it surfaced because of some tiny exhaust leaks there.

[Whizbang]

i am not opposed to just getting a package deal, but ill have to price compare.

The GT35R kit would probably be "up my alley" per say, but i all depends on pricing.

My other consideration is tuning. I dont want to go way out into left field on having to get a over the top ecu (ie haltech) I would rather it remain somewhere in the range of stock computer with something like an Rtek 2.0 or the like.

[vex]

I highly recommend the RTek 2.1 (It's what I currently am running in my car: S4 NA). Also the AFM delete may be coming around shortly (read about 6 month time line before production). They're in the testing phase of that.

[Whizbang]

that would be nice.

Now not to say that if i get a good deal on a used Haltech or the like, i would be on it. My biggest mistrust of my car is the original wiring.

The other thing is i like my car for its handling, mountain road fun (1/4 the reason im moving to colorado) not really for its 1/4 mile times.

[vex]

Turbo shouldn't really effect your ability to handle, it just alters your torque curve. You'll need to become familiar with it before hitting the mountain roads like you used to, but that should be it.

[Whizbang]

i was more mentioning i dont have use for a T1000 or whatever people are lusting over these days. But a GT35R type turbo would probably be about perfect, or anything else ball bearing....mmmmm.....

[vex]

i was more mentioning i dont have use for a T1000 or whatever people are lusting over these days. But a GT35R type turbo would probably be about perfect, or anything else ball bearing....mmmmm.....

Oh i see. I'm going to use a 60-1 ;) with ceramic ball bearings :D

[TehMonkay]

They must've improved the quality of the chinese manifolds then, because my friend looked at the rx7store manifold and an ssac manifold side by side and could tell the difference.

[Whizbang]

there are generally more than one manifold made there, especially for the FC

[TehMonkay]

He's running a GT4088 on 23PSI and hasn't had any issues with it yet, it's been on there at least 6 months now.

[Whizbang]

well consider that it is a giant chunk of metal. The standard issue piston ones are made with thinner wall, smaller diameter metal. There is a lot more strength to be found in the FC one. Odds are it wont last forever since eventually it will crack, but the same holds true with the cast iron ones, even OEM.

I am tempted to try one, header wrap and see how long the bastard goes for.

[Phoenix7]

ok, so the options are out there for t04 turbos, when it comes to manifolds. What about manifold for hybrids?

1. I'd like to know how restrictive the stock TII manifolds are.
2. How much improvement in the exhaust flow can you create?
3. Isn't the Stock manifold the most direct way from the exhaust-to-turbo?

[vex]

ok, so the options are out there for t04 turbos, when it comes to manifolds. What about manifold for hybrids?

1. I'd like to know how restrictive the stock TII manifolds are.
2. How much more can you improve the flow?

Give me some time bro. I'll be gettin' stuff done here in a few months, i'll keep the community posted on what I'll have available in the line up then. Also why not just get a stock manifold flow benched? Should be pretty easy to do. Go to the shop and say, hey: flow bench this for me. Tell me what it can do.

[Whizbang]

well alot of it would be a function of porting with the stock turbo to maximize flow. A stock manifold CAN make a lot of power with a large hybrid, but at what point is it too much "work" to achieve a result.

i would love to get some BNR input as well as Kevin on this one since they have opposite viewpoints.

[vex]

ok, so the options are out there for t04 turbos, when it comes to manifolds. What about manifold for hybrids?

1. I'd like to know how restrictive the stock TII manifolds are.
2. How much improvement in the exhaust flow can you create?
3. Isn't the Stock manifold the most direct way from the exhaust-to-turbo?

Just by me looking at the stock turbo, number 3 is not true. You have a volumetric space that causes increase in turbulance as different temperatures meet each other. This will slow down flow of the manifold.

However, you forget that a majority of the magic for a turbo to operate effectively comes from temperature and pressure differences and not necessarily the flow of gases to the turbine.

[TehMonkay]

Wahts the point of flow with a stock manifold? The stock hotside is too small to give good spool on a larger turbo, that's why hybrids suck, at least imo.

[Phoenix7]

Well it also depends on your goals. If I want 300hp to 350hp then the hybrid is fine. can't you port the manifold and hotside for better flow? (mind you I have never pulled the manifold out.)

[Whizbang]

there is also the thought of new vs. used. There seem to be a lot more used T4 items around, but the end price is about that of a BNR rebuild hybrid.

[vex]

Well it also depends on your goals. If I want 300hp to 350hp then the hybrid is fine. can't you port the manifold and hotside for better flow? (mind you I have never pulled the manifold out.)

That's a tough question because depending on how you port it you'll gain velocity but reduce pressure. The rest is up to the turbine wheel and what's being used with what.

[djmtsu]

My manifold is ported as well as the entry to the hotside. I can't tell a big difference, but it does seem to spool faster. In fact it spools faster than FerociousP's 6 port turbo.

As far as manifold solutions go, I have a tubular T04 designed for an FD. I am going to use an RB header flange as a spacer to clear the LIM, then go from there. Although I am very tempted to build myself a hybrid. I am not looking for super high HP anyway.

[TehMonkay]

so if you use two gaskets and an rb flange you can space a fd manifold out far enough to clear? Same for the 13b-re intake manifolds? Are the stock studs long enough?

[djmtsu]

From what I have read, yes it will clear TII and RE LIM's. One of the two styles of turbochargers (tangial or on-center, can't remember which) will usually clear with no spacer. I'll have to look it up again though.

The stock studs are NOT long enough. You need to get longer ones, which can be found at many online hardware sites.

[TehMonkay]

What thread, pitche and length stud should be ordered?

[Bryan@BNR]

Hola.

Cast iron HKS manifolds are great for 400-450 RWHP applications and you don't have to worry about cracking issues. The T2 cast iron manifolds have creep issues if the turbine housing is small. Also the pattern maker of the 2g hks manifold didn't account for casting shrinkage and the ports don't line up with the engine ports. If the 2g is port matched, you are good if you run a .96 A/r T4 turbine housing. The .81 undivided will creep a bit. The FD HKS cast is fully devided and the 1.00 a/r divided turbine housing is about the best combo. With the right external gate, creep will not be seen. The china manifold is fine, not great on quality, but if it cracks, it only costs 100 bucks to replace it :D. The china manifold is a better design than the HKS units, but do you want to replace it at a later date? If you don't mind working on your car and you are on a budget, go for the china. You will have to alter a few things, but it should be somewhat close. HKS units are great for 450 RW or less, and if you like to build a car and not worry about it, they are the best for the money. My FB made 440 RWHP on a FD HKS manifold, and I made 435 RWHP with the same manifold with a 62-1 turbo on my FD. If you want 450 or more, you need longer runners, go china :D.

Bryan@BNR

[RETed]

The reason why cast turbo exhaust manifolds are recommended is because they will outlast almost any tube turbo exhaust manifolds.
If you're going to argue stainless steel tube turbo exhaust manifolds, then cast units will almost always be cheaper.
Except for all that Made-in-China crap...

There's an underlying problem with buying all that cheap ass Made-in-China crap...
Economies.
People bitch about how the US dollar is devalued and how China's economy is pumping like there's no tomorrow.
Gee...I wonder why...duh.
You wanna save your dollars now and bend the U.S. economy over, go buy all that cheap crap.

Sorry for the global economy rant.


-Ted

[Whizbang]

i would be interested in making an FD cast item work if i can not find an FC one.

Just adding the flange seems like a great way to add more chance for exhaust leakage.

[RETed]

There are lots of used ones that pop up.
Check eBay.
They also come up a lot on YJA.

Also keep an eye out on GReddy units.


-Ted

[Whizbang]

ill probably wait til something appears on ebay. The Yahoo Japan site is a pita to translate constantly.

[White88FC]

theirs a used greddy cast manifold on there right now

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Used-GReddy-Trust-Manifold-T4-Flange-RX7-FC3S-13B-T_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1163Q7c39Q3a1Q7 c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0 Q2em14QQhashZitem300255526047QQitemZ300255526047

[Whizbang]

yea i have been looking at those, but right now money is a bit tight so it will depend on how a paycheck or two goes.

[TehMonkay]

http://www.racerwheel.com/hks-17141-116188.html

picture is wrong but it's the correct part number

[TehMonkay]

Yeah, chinese crap knockoffs.

Greddy declares bankruptcy why?

[Phoenix7]

Yeah, chinese crap knockoffs.

Greddy declares bankruptcy why?
http://rotarycarclub.com/showpost.php?p=44027&postcount=9

[Bryan@BNR]

I have a 2g HKS manifold up on my shelf. I even think its been jet hot coated. I'll take 200 for it.

Bryan@BNR

[Phoenix7]

How much better are their designs over the Stocker? will it fit my Stage 2? I'll need a new DP too, right?

[TehMonkay]

No it's a T4 flange.

For $200 i'd take it but that'll be two weeks from now though lol

[MaczPayne]

200 is a smoking deal for that!

[djmtsu]

See, here is my only hitch.

I'm not a cheap bastard, but I am hesitant to go full T04 for these reasons:
-I don't want to get all new coolant and oil feed/drain lines
-I don't want to get a custom DP
-I don't want to have to make another TID
-I don't want to make gonzo HP
-I don't want to go to a full standalone EMS

I am content with making modest HP, the limit of what the chassis with minor suspension mods can handle. If I was building a purpose built track car, maybe. I still want to drive it anywhere I want and not have to worry about things.

Edit: So I might be selling an FD T04 manifold.

[Whizbang]

i think that i am going to plan and budget for a used HKS manifold, and then run a good T4 turbo, etc.

plus i have high altitude to consider.

[Whizbang]

i am actually more concerned about finding the right turbocharger at a price that isnt going to kill my budget but without getting a bogus unit.

[MaczPayne]

For a nearly turn-key turbo setup, I've heard a lot of good things about A-spec's kits.

[classicauto]

As for the manifold debate...a turbo manifold is not so much like an NA header...runner design is not as important, since there is backpressure created by the turbo behind it. This is shown by the undivided "log style" FC manifolds still being able to make power despite the common chamber they use (as opposed to divided, equal length tube manifolds).

I made over 450rwhp on an HKS cast log manifold, but the tubular copy manifold would have worked just the same. The only advantage of cast manifolds are the noise retention and longer life since the welds will not crack.

The log style manifolds sure do work, I've put down decent power on my Greddy manifold also.

BUT

Runner design can and does have a large effect on the setups effciency. Changing only my manifold out to a stainless divided A-spec unit (and I/C hot side piping, and downpipe because turbo placement was different......) I could get ~500rpm better spool up, and harder spool up with lower EGT's pre turbo. So there absolutely is benefits to be had, but yeah you can put down decent numbers on a cast baby :)