any one willing to talk 12a's/13b's advice needed.

[warwickben]

i could not think of a better title for the thread.

any one willing to talk over the phone about motors or here. i just want to clear a few thing up about 12a's and 13bTII motors. all the folks i know with rx7's have fc's or fd's so they cant answer the questions/ ideas ect i have.

mainly i decied theres no way i can go with a 20b because iam no good with ecu's and the cost at this point of my life.

i want to get more power like every one else.

i have been thinking of doing a TII swap but carbing it to make it easier for me.
or rebuilding my 12a porting and turboing it.

so any one that knows about 12a's and 13b's let me know if you want to give me advice.

[Phoenix7]

Have you given thought about trying to source a 12A-T? I know nothing about carbs but I'm sure Sterling would be able to clear things up since he's the carb guy.

[warwickben]

those motors are extremly rare i had thought about it tho.

iam not looking at extreme power since this car is my daily driver during the summer. so 8 psi on a 12a would make me happy and from every thing i have read it is safe.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

So....You are wanting to install a 13BT into you car and swap it to carbed? Besides a custom intake manifold and using a GSL-SE distributor, I can't think of anything too different about it from my GSL-SE/TII swap.

[Phoenix7]

Couldn't you mimic the 12AT setup on a 13BT? I mean, look at how everything is routed and figure out how to make it work from scratch?

I don't think you should be turned off by Fuel Injection. Just do a straight 13BT swap and slowly learn how to tune it. It should be easier considering the amount of gadgets you can get to monitor the engine.

What is it about fuel injection that makes you hesitate?

[PercentSevenC]

I'm doing a blow-through Weber 45 DCOE on an old-school streetported 13B with a stock S5 turbo. By the time I'm done, I'll have spent around $1100 on everything, not including the engine. It's a pretty cheap way to go. But carbs are not easier, just cheaper.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I would definently go EFI if I could.

[Whizbang]

My thoughts would be just get an S4 turbo assembly, ecu, harness, etc. Some misc. GSL-SE parts and swap it in.

It has a higher chance of working right the first time and the driveibilty will be much better.

The 12at motor (the ACTUAL 12at) is similar in a lot of ways to a GSL-SE but the control systems are very different. The throttle body on the 12at is a lot like the Nikki carb in design, only its not a carb at all. So the intake manifolds may only be slightly different.
The distributor is also different since it can reference boost pressure as well.

I have 1/2 of a good writeup on swapping 13bt engines into first gens. I can finish it sometime here and put it up.

[warwickben]

the problem i have found with 13b TII swap with sa's are the trans needs to be modded to fit. men in black, from the other site mods the trans to fit for a small cost. which i wish i could learn to save some cash.

ive been doing the math in my head and rebuilding my 12a and turbo its would cost as much as a s4 swap with a rebuild. s4 would be little bit more, but the trans for that i would not worry about blowing up like i would with the 12a trans. to me not worry about parts breaking is better then being like look i have a turbo 12a for me.

the thing the scares me about efi is the cost for 1.and tuning it my self. i work with a bunch of honda guys and wrx guys. they told me how much it cost to rent the dyno so they could tune it them selfs and the cost of some one tuning for you. i guess i read to many threads that went like tuned my car today and it blew ect ect. but i all so heard you dont have to have a dyno to tune. which thru a monkey wrench in to my head lol.

but the funny thing is i dont really know why iam so worried about efi. me and a friend are building a turbo capri 2.3(fox body) and that going to have to be custom tune.

so i guess you guys have made up my mind 13bTII s4 swap keep it stock and learn.

let me get this right, 13bTII i would need a fb 13b oil pan and a front cover from a fb. any thing else.

[jtbshaw]

You would need a GSL-SE oil pan, GSL-SE front cover, and a distributor. Some say only use a GSL-SE, but a 12A distributor will work also. The reason the tranny won't just fit right in there is because it is longer. There is only a small adjustment needed to make it fit in an FB. And, you will need some type of stand alone engine management if you stick with the EFI. I just finished pricing out a complete setup for my son's 1983. Rebuild (with porting - all to be completed by me - huge savings), turbo setup, front mount IC and tubing (I will fab all of my tubing - another huge saving), and the parts that I mentioned above.....everything came out to be under $2k. Oh, and a bigger radiator was in there too.

There's ways of doing it and saving a pile of money. I guess you just have to know what to look for, and that's what you mentioning that you just need to learn.

On the tuning side of it, yeah you can go to the dyno and spend a nice amount of $$$ and get it dialed in. Then there's DLL (Data Log Lab). Most of the time, this is what we use, or a tuner that we work with, when we develop new parts. DLL is a in-car tuning process that works if you have access to a OBD (on-board diagnostic) port...something a stand alone will have. Many people don't believe in DLL, but every tune that we have had is within 1-3hp and 2-3 tq differences from a dyno. Now, as mentioned, there are plenty of people that discount the DLL, mainly the shops that have spent the tremendous amount of $$$ for dynos, especially the AWD folks. Regardless, our tuner is exceptional at this and DLL is nowhere near as costly. Here's a link to a decent read with a shop owner in the Bay area of Cali trying to discount DLL and our tuner (touring bubble) and other DLL tuners proving otherwise: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=353581

That should give you plenty to read on for a bit. Let me know when you are ready for more! :)

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Why couldn't he use the stock ECU? I mean, it is doable. Harder than a standalone, yes. Cheaper, yes. Plus no-tuning :icon_tup:

[jtbshaw]

You are correct about the stock ECU. It isn't near the money, but it is PITA to hook up and get it right. Not to mention, it has its limits. Depending on his turbo would be the biggest contributing factor to which I'd go with. Regardless, warwickben, it's your vehicle do what pleases you and what you understand.

Of course, you could also just source a 4-port 13B, 1/2 bridge it, drop a Holley or IDA (or other Weber) on it and that makes for a fun little setup.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I had mine running with a stock ECU, but never ran right. This was back when I was a 7 newb. Only when I went to install my Microtech did I realize I was running a 87 harness with the resistor and 88 high-impedence injectors and connectors :(

[warwickben]

well when i buy the motor, iam going to be getting the Engine, 5-Speed RWD Transmission, ECU, Intercooler, Complete Wiring(Un-Cut). why would i have problems running it on the stock ecu. please inform me.

[Rogue_Wulff]

Stock ECU would be fine, if the engine is totally stock. Once you start modding stuff, the stock ECU begins to be a hold up. Even with a totally stock engine, the stock ECU still leaves a little to be desired, especially with the fuel cut. Granted, you could add a fuel cut defender to get around that.

[warwickben]

would i be able to do a fmic with the stock ecu (i know silly question).

what is this fuel cut defender?

[PercentSevenC]

A Megasquirt isn't that expensive, even pre-assembled.

[Phoenix7]

the ECU cuts fuel to the motor when boost gets too high. THis little electronic box tricks the ECU into tthinking boost hasn't increased as much and allows you to dump more fuel and turn the boost up (either manualy or with an electronic boost controller).

I've never done or looked into the swap into the first gen but the body electrical harness won't mate up to the ECU so you may have to rewire some things (this is based on an S4 car with S5 motor and ECU and i assume it's the same issue for the first gen).


FMIC on Stock ECU is fine.

[warwickben]

the wiring wount be a big deal. my buddy iam building the capri with went to uti for wiring.

can i use the fornt cover from my 12a or would i need to find one from GSL-SE. i belive i was told in the past the 12a will work.

with the wiring i dont mind having to run after market gauges iam all ready am for water and oil temp any ways. i was told my cluster speed cable can be hooked right in to the TII trans with no problem.

what is the deal with the wiring. would i just need to run wires to the ecu so it gets power and thats it?

[$100T2]

well when i buy the motor, iam going to be getting the Engine, 5-Speed RWD Transmission, ECU, Intercooler, Complete Wiring(Un-Cut). why would i have problems running it on the stock ecu. please inform me.

You should just use it like that, then. There is no sense in changing it to carbed, you're only adding expense.

AFAIK, you would need a GSL-SE front cover, and it needs to be tapped for an oil return line for the turbo.

[warwickben]

thats no big deal for me taping holes, iam a machinist after all / welder lol.

well its time for me to start putting money aside.

[warwickben]

if i deiced to rebuild my 12a and turbo it would you all agree that a TII trans would be the best band for my buck, since i know theres a chance of blowing the stock 12a trans up.

you mite all be asking you self i thought he deiced on a 13bTII swap. well i found out family member can get me a rebuilt TII trans dirt cheap and a few of my TII friends are upgrading there turbos and offered me there old ones for all most free. which made me start doing alot of math. i could rebuild my 12a , get a new TII trans, and all the turbo parts need for less then the cost of the TII motor packages i have found that would need a rebuild any way.

[PercentSevenC]

What year is your car? The S2 trannies are pretty beefy. If you've got one of those, I wouldn't bother upgrading unless you're planning on making over 300 HP and have real sticky tires and a grabby clutch, and at that point you should be looking at upgrading the rear end as well. To me, a bigger benefit of the TII tranny is that it allows you to use 240mm clutch components.

[warwickben]

my car is a 1980 sa. at a cost stand point a turbo 12a would be my best bang for the buck. i probably wouldn't go more then 10 psi max. i was told 8 to 10 psi is safe to run on a 12a(motor) thats not a 12at.but people have run higher boost. also id be useing a o.e.r setup with the rotary shack intake. any ideas how much power that would make. would my stock trans take it if i rebuild it or should i look for another. what would you recommend.

i am not trying to build drag car or any thing like that so i dont care about big hp number. i am not going to be doing burn outs or hard launches. i daily drive this car during the summer so i dont beat on it as is any ways. i am mainly looking for a bit more power.

[PercentSevenC]

The amount of power you'll be making depends on a number of factors, most particularly what turbo you use and whether it will be intercooled. But I personally wouldn't bother swapping trannies. As long as you're not abusing it, it should be fine.

(On the other hand, blowing a tranny isn't particularly scary to me, so if it is to you, take what I say with a grain of salt. :))

[warwickben]

i've all ways been confused when it comes to turbo sizes. i was thinking of runing a stock second gen turbo.