The Official FC Radiator Thread.

[vex]

I did a quick and dirty search about radiators on here and didn't come up with anything, so I figure I'd start this one. The stock radiators now are approaching if not exceeding 20 years of duty (unless replaced). It would be wise to replace them with something that doesn't have a plastic top and bottom. For this cause I've started a list of possible replacements that can be installed with minimal effort into the stock location on the FC.

For starters let’s look at the actual size of the stock radiator (S4): I measured an over all length of 22.5 in and an overall height of 20.25 in. This is of course just a rough estimate because I didn't think it necessary to remove parts of the intake to get an accurate measurement (as even the universal radiators have specific dimensions). The overall thickness of the radiator is about 2.25 in. This includes the end tanks but not the brackets.

The overall length of the core is 21.5 in while the height of the core is roughly 17 in. The estimated thickness of the core is about 1.5 in (may actually be larger, but measurement was just eyeballed to give me an idea).

As for the number of passes or flow type of stock I believe (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) is a single pass. This means the coolant is just dumped into the radiator and at some point works itself down to the lower portion of the radiator as it cools. This is one of the least efficient means of cooling for a few reasons:

The movement of the coolant is not controlled resulting in higher average temperatures across the radiator
The coolant increases in temperature much more rapidly than other flow designs.
Coolant does not have adequate time to cool to a lower temperature. Thus resulting in a higher engine temperature.

With these things in mind we can now look at a few different options. Lets first look at the specifically engineered OE replacements.

Direct OEM Replacements

KOYO

Koyo produces three different radiators for the FC. All are aluminum construction and are a direct fit for the year they are produced. Koyo produces one (1) radiator for the early FC (1986-1988) and two (2) radiators for the late model FC (1989-1991). The main differences are as follows:

The radiator produced for the early FC is (as far as I can tell) a single pass radiator. So although you have an increase in cooling efficiency, you still have the down fall of it being a single pass. Koyo claims a reduction in stock cooling temperatures of about 20-30%. This may be an affordable option for those who have not heavily modified their cars and are just looking for a slight increase in cooling performance. This is a direct replacement with OEM (just remember to keep the brackets to mount the radiator).

The second radiator produced by Koyo for the FC is for the S5. Similar to the previous radiator discussed it too is a single pass radiator style. On the other hand, the final radiator produced by Koyo for the S5 is an "N-Pass" flow pattern which increases the ability of the radiator to cool the engine significantly. The "N-pass" is basically a 3 pass flow pattern allowing the coolant to remain in the radiator and cool to a lower temperature before returning to the engine. This radiator comes highly recommended by those who have installed it. But may be overkill depending on your level of modification.

All the Koyo radiators retail for anywhere between 300-400 dollars.

CorkSport

Along these same lines Corksport produces their own similar radiator for the FC (both S4 and S5) at a slightly lower cost. The radiator is single pass aluminum construction. Which leads me to assume a similar efficiency to that of the single pass Koyo's (about 20-30%). Expect to pay around 300 plus shipping for one.

Fluidyne

Fluidyne offers similar radiators for the FC as the Koyo, however they are slightly more expensive--starting at 400 and only increasing from there depending on where you order yours from. Effeciency is similar to the Corksport and Koyo.

AWR/Ron Davis

AWR/Ron Davis offer two different radiators for the FC. One being a single pass and one being a Dual-Pass cross flow. These radiators are usually built for racing and as such their price reflect that. I can not find the stats on the single pass beyond the fact that there are no pre-drilled mounting holes on the mounting tab to allow you to mount the radiator specifically where you'd like it to be. Looking at the radiator it seems to me to be a down flow design, however I may be mistaken on that.

There is also the AWR/Ron Davis cross flow radiator. It is signifcantly more effecient than the Single pass radiators and offers increased cooling benefits as the coolant has to travel accross the radiator multiple times before being returned to the engine (I believe it's a cross flow two pass radiator). Construction is also different than the radiators mentioned above. The core is fully tig welded while the ones above are brazed. However with all these benefits they carry a hefty price tag. Ranging from mid 400 to upper 500 depending on where you purchase them. The dimensions of that radiator are as follows:with an overall length of 28 in and a height of 19 in. The core is 18.25 in. in height and 24 in. in length while the core is 2.25 in. thick.

CSF

CSF offers a few different radiators for each individual year. For S4 they sell radiator No. 864. It is an all metal replacement for the OE radiator. Beyond the same dimensions as stock with metal end tanks little else is declared from their site (no price tag either). Dimensions:
Core Size 16-3/4 x 22-1/8 x 1-5/16
Tank Size Inlet 22-1/6 x 1-9/16
Outlet 22-1/6 x 1-9/16
Hose Fittings Top 1-1/2 Right
Bottom 1-1/2 Right
No of Rows 2


CSF also offers another radiator for S5's but with the same stock dimensions. Radiator No. 2006. Dimensions are as follows:

Core Size 16-5/16 x 22-7/16 x 1-5/16
Tank Size Inlet 22-1/16 x 1-9/16
Outlet 22-1/16 x 1-9/16
Hose Fittings Top 1-1/2 Right
Bottom 1-1/2 Right
No of Rows 2


Universal Radiators

Universal type radiators... what can I say about these? They are remarkably cheaper for the amount of radiator you get. This isn't necessarily reflected in the workmanship of the product but the cost savings come to you by the ability of the company to mass produce the radiator to specific dimensions and sell to a wider range of applications. Since there are so many universal radiators available it would be impossible for me to list them all and keep them all updated. For this cause I will list a few radiators from different companies. Note that depending on your situation you may need to either alter the universal radiator, pick a smaller one, or even modify the radiator supports to accept the sizes I recommend.

Keep in mind that no matter what radiator you decide to go with you need to be aware of how much heat your engine is generating. Do not select a small or medium 4-pass 3-core Cross flow radiator and expect tremendous cooling capacity to cool your insanely large turbo and heavily ported engine. It just doesn't work like that. You will always get more cooling capacity from more surface area. Period. The larger the radiator the better (there is a point of diminishing returns, but just as a rule of thumb that will work). My personal recommendations is a two or three core radiator should be standard (for the most part, they are. It's quite difficult to find a single core radiator, and why would you even want one? I don't know). Single pass will be fine for stock to slightly modified and any pass (2,3, 4, x pass) will be fine for slightly modified to extremely modified. This is of course, a rule of thumb and you will need to figure out your own cooling needs before putting on any radiator. Alright, enough. On with it already:

AFCO
I believe Ted said it best: These radiators offer the same level of cooling as Ron Davis but at a fraction of the cost[A]n AFCO Racing 80125N is about the same thing...for under $300.

The only catch is that keeping the stock battery (tray) is next to impossible. It's a 26" width rad, so things get tight up front, but it does fit between the engine frame rails; [t]here are several options to mount this unit, but be prepared to do some minor cutting.

Some specs...
The rad has the hose fittings on the proper sides...The top hose is 1.5" - same as stock. The bottom hose is 1.75" - stock is 1.5"; we use auto parts stores generic hose that's around 11" long but uses a 1.5" on one side and 1.75" on the other - perfect. It is a double-pass design for better efficiency. It's a 3" thick core. It uses a "domestic" type rad cap on the rad - need to buy separately. The rad cap filler neck does have a 1/8" NPT fittings for bypass use. This filler neck makes it easy to bleed air out of the system. If you want to add any of the stock FC stuff - lower thermoswitch, coolant level, heater hose - you need to add / fab them yourself.
Which brings up a very good point. Many of the universal radiators do not have the appropriate holes or bungs for the different sensors. Be aware that if you wish to retain those sensors you'll need to drill, tap, and/or weld in the appropriate fittings to mount the sensor. One may also need to modify the mounting location to make sure there's enough space and a proper alignment for good airflow.

See post number 14 for more radiators

[vex]

**Note: This portion is still under going modification**
Here's a brief explination of the different radiator types:
Single Pass:
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1972&stc=1&d=1215991379
This picture isn't 100% accurate. It does give a general idea of how the temperature is going to look across the radiator though. Since hotter fluid is less dense than colder fluid the heat is spread more evenly across the top (since stock is down flow instead of cross). This results in the hotter portion of the coolant being retained above the cooler portion before it is all returned to the engine via the lower outlet. This however is not all that effecient from a cooling standpoint as the radiator begins to heatsoak. The hotter coolant will eventually raise the average temperature throughout the radiator causing the radiator to return hotter and hotter coolant. However--this is completely dependent on your heat generating modifications (turbo, etc).
Double Pass:
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1971&stc=1&d=1215990916The double pass is slightly more effecient at cooling. This is a cross flow type where the hot incoming coolant is cooled as it travels accross the radiator. It is then further cooled when it travels accross the radiator again to the outlet. This kind of setup is helpful in that the coolant is given far more time to cool as it travels accross the radiator. Unfortunatly this also reduces turbulence with the coolant and therefore reduces heat transfer capacity. If turbulence can be added the coolant will transfer more heat more effectively... but that's a discussion for another section.
Triple Pass:
*Picture Forth Coming*
A triple pass or an N-Pass is similar to the 2 pass radiator in that it allows the coolant more time to cool. Again, the coolant is passed from one section of the radiator to another, and at each time it is exposed to more (cooler, and cooler) surface temperatures before being returned to the engine block.
4-Pass:
The biggest pass I've ever heard about. Usually reserved for large displacement and heavy horsepower applications a 4-pass radiator starts to see a diminishing return in cooling ability. These radiators are rare to come by in off the shelf type, and usually are reserved for custom manufacture (Read that as expensive). The idea is taking a 2-pass and basically adding another 2-pass below it. You get twice the cooling time as a regular 2-pass, but you have to make a compromise. That is either in weight, or in the amount of coolant that is being pulled into the engine. If the volume of coolant available to the engine remains the same (effectively doubling surface area), you make up for the cooling performance in weight. If teh volume of coolant is allowed to decrease to maintain specific surface area of the radiator,then the effective time for the coolant to cool is reduced as it pushes more coolant to the engine sooner. The best adivce with regard to these radiators would be: know your goals and understand that a 4-pass may be overkill for a majority of the cars out there.

Number Of Rows (Cores)

Single Row
The number of rows is a balancing act between the cooling ability of the radiator and the weight to which you wish to hold your car. Usually single row radiators are used strictly in racing in which air flow is always occuring over the radiator providing enough CFM to allow the heat to dissappate quickly with little repercussions on the engine. On the road, might not be the best option as we deal with stop and go traffic and the heat may not dissappate quickly enough to maintain a healthy engine.

Double Row
Double rows are fairly common, especially on stock radiators. These handle a fair amount of heat and are able to hold more coolant in a double row compared to a single row. This however has drawback that as the radiator reaches temperature, the radiation from the front row will pass on to the rear. But this radiation is usually neglible at speed.

Triple Row
Triple rows improve upon the cooling ability of the radiator another step. Similar to the Double Row it maintains the same pros and cons. The added benefit of the multi-row radiators is that they allow for additional coolant to be available to the engine. This decreases the chances of over heating yet raises the average temperature gradient over the radiators surface area.

[Max777]

So... where is the "junkyard find" section? :D

Good thread idea, and good job on it so far!

[J-Rat]

I have a K2RD radiator which is no longer made that is a Dual Pass. I do have all the drawings and part numbers to make them again.

[RETed]

AFCO FTMFW, period.
Fuck Ron Davis and their overpriced shit.


-Ted

[djmtsu]

Ron Davis is quite spendy.

I like FerociousP's set up. It is a THICK radiator meant for some GM (we think). It sits perfectly upright in the stock location (no angle like stock), and the Escort fan fits on it perfect as well. The thing is beefy!!

[vex]

AFCO FTMFW, period.
Fuck Ron Davis and their overpriced shit.


-Ted

Thanks for pointing out that company. I'll be covering universals next (I can't seem to find anymore specific companies that built specific OEM replacement rads)
I have a K2RD radiator which is no longer made that is a Dual Pass. I do have all the drawings and part numbers to make them again.
Are you planning on making some more? ;) out of curiousity, how is the cooling with the Dual Pass compared to a single pass? I'm looking for some real world reactions and experiences when it comes to radiators. What works, what doesn't, etc.

[J-Rat]

Thanks for pointing out that company. I'll be covering universals next (I can't seem to find anymore specific companies that built specific OEM replacement rads)

Are you planning on making some more? ;) out of curiousity, how is the cooling with the Dual Pass compared to a single pass? I'm looking for some real world reactions and experiences when it comes to radiators. What works, what doesn't, etc.

Well, I actually think Ted was involved in making them the first time. They are AFCO cores made with custom end-tanks to fit OEM mounting positions. As far as making them again, I need to make sure the originating company doesnt have any problems with that.

As far as cooling goes, I dont think anything works better!

[MaczPayne]

CSF radiators are also good and inexpensive. I have a 2-row that costed me a little more than 200 bucks shipped brand new. On a 99 degree trackday, my temps stayed at 100C during 25 minute sessions, and reached an occasional high of 105C. Normal driving temps were about 82-88C

That said, I'd like to purchase an AFCO someday for my next build.

[vex]

CSF radiators are also good and inexpensive. I have a 2-row that costed me a little more than 200 bucks shipped brand new. On a 99 degree trackday, my temps stayed at 100C during 25 minute sessions, and reached an occasional high of 105C. Normal driving temps were about 82-88C

That said, I'd like to purchase an AFCO someday for my next build.

I'll check it out; are they universal or OE Replacement?

[RETed]

If the Ron Davis units require that kinda fabrication to install, then an AFCO Racing 80125N is about the same thing...for under $300.
The only catch is that keeping the stock battery (tray) is next to impossible.
It's a 26" width rad, so things get tight up front, but it does fit between the engine frame rails.
There are several options to mount this unit, but be prepared to do some minor cutting.
These are really for "race" cars with extensive mods, or owners are prepared to do mods for function over form.
I tend to lop off most of the original radiator brakets on the car for this install.
I'm close to completing my FMIC install, so I'll try and post pics of my install with this rad soon (don't hold your breath now).

We've tested this unit on our race car up at Thunderhill in the middle of summer in 100F+ ambients.
It was able to keep the coolants temps under 205F no problem.

Some specs...
The rad has the hose fittings on the proper sides - none of this Chevy / Ford crossover hose crap.
The top hose is 1.5" - same as stock.
The bottom hose is 1.75" - stock is 1.5"; we use auto parts stores generic hose that's around 11" long but uses a 1.5" on one side and 1.75" on the other - perfect.
It is a double-pass design for better efficiency.
It's a 3" thick core.
It uses a "domestic" type rad cap on the rad - need to buy separately.
The rad cap filler neck does have a 1/8" NPT fittings for bypass use.
This filler neck makes it easy to bleed air out of the system.
If you want to add any of the stock FC stuffs - lower thermoswitch, coolant level, heater hose - you need to add / fab them yourself.


-Ted

[Turbo vw]

Ron Davis is quite spendy.

I like FerociousP's set up. It is a THICK radiator meant for some GM (we think). It sits perfectly upright in the stock location (no angle like stock), and the Escort fan fits on it perfect as well. The thing is beefy!!


i would like to hear more about this set up plezzz

[MaczPayne]

I'll check it out; are they universal or OE Replacement?

They're OE replacement.

[vex]

Well... I found out the maximum post length... so continuing post number 1 here now.

Universal Radiators Continued...
Of consequence there are occasions when electrolosis does occur on an aluminum radiator. To counter this problem one should make sure that the radiator is properly installed with rubber bushings. Also, find the route cause of the problem (your electrical system) and rectify it. That being said a properly setup radiator should have no electrolosis occuring within it, let alone any electrical current or voltage gounding it out--this means it is isolated from the chasis using non-conductive material such as rubber bushings (but then again, maybe I'm just being anal :dunno:).

Griffen Universal Radiators
One of the only radiators that Griffen offers within the stock dimensions is the Griffin 2-28185-X. It is a Scirocco style which means it has both the inlet (1.5 in) and outlet (1.75 in) on the same side (passenger or driver if you flip it up side down). It is 22 in x 13 in x 3 in overall. It is a dual-row two pass radiator and has a price tag of about 275 at summitracing.

If you have any questions or comments post up. It'll help make this thread better.

[vex]

Okay people, I'm going to need your help from here on out. I would like real world numbers from people. Those running stock radiators I would like you to voice your opinions concerning them. Vitally important details I would really like to see would be Ambient Air temperatures, Water temperatures at idle (nominal), water temperatures at cruise and if possible under load as well.

For those who have already swapped over to an aluminum radiator I would like similiar information.
Ambient air temperatures.
Coolant Temperatures at Idle.
Coolant Temperatures under load and/or cruise.
Also I would like to know how much body modification you had to do to mount the radiators, and if how much time you spent doing so.

[vex]

Here's some pictures of an AFCO radiator (I took Teds advice and picked this one up)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o285/lax-rotor/Cooling/IMG_0006.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o285/lax-rotor/Cooling/IMG_0007.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o285/lax-rotor/Cooling/IMG_0008.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o285/lax-rotor/Cooling/IMG_0009.jpg

I still need to pick up some rubber/isolators to make sure I don't start any electrolysis in there... No need for a leaky radiator. I'm still wondering how I'm going to anchor the radiator without having metal on metal contact... I'll have to think about it.

[TehMonkay]

Nylon bolts/washers?

[vex]

Nylon bolts/washers?

You know i've never seen a nylon bolt...

[need RX7]

Anyone have experience with the Corksport radiator?

[TehMonkay]

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?p=5955964&highlight=nylon+bolt#post5955964

Nylon bolts

[WE3RX7]

Vex - did you consider taking it to a tig shop to have the mounting tabs added on? You could do this and still spend less than the Ron Davis. Its what I plan to do with my Afco :)

You can of course use rubber mounting points as well in this setup... there are a few decent TIG shops in VA.

[Shainiac]

I bought an Afco a few weeks ago and installed it. Lucky for me, I live 30 miles from Afco's headquarters AND I worked for a shop that does a lot of dirt track parts business with Afco. I picked up my 26" Dual Pass for a whopping $173 :D

I started off by relocating the battery, which has already been stated. To get this thing in the car, I bough 2 - 3'x1"x1/8" strips of 6061 alum and bent them into "J"shaped brackets lined with weather stripping to cradle the rad under the endtanks. I then used AllThread(sp) and locknuts to keep the top of the rad from moving around and finished it off with weather stripping to keep from rubbing. I used a Taurus fan which fit fine. The only problem I ran into was the return for the heater core. Since the lower rad outlet was 1 3/4" instead of 1 1/2", I had to build an adapter and introduce a "T" for the heater. I had a welder at work make me one out of scrap chromoly since it was free and going to get thrown away. The last hickup was that there is only a few inches between my lower rad adapter and the water pump housing. I managed to hack the old lower hose up enough to get it on there, but its not pretty. In hindsight, I would have made the adapter curved a bit so It wouldnt put the hose in such a bind. Ive put probably 300 miles on the thing and it seems to be hold up fine.

I didnt get a chance to take pictures before I headed back to school, but to say the least, This thing works well! On the interstate with the stock rad and fan, my streetport NA would run 185-190, read from the thermostat housing with a mechanical autometer gauge. NOW, with the new radiator and semi-restricitive Taurus fan and NO ducting between the rad and bumper (wasnt there when I got the car), The car runs dead on 180 cruising at 80mph. If I kick the fan on low, It pulls closer to 170-175!
Next time I get a change, Ill take some pictures for everyone.

[TehMonkay]

I bought an Afco a few weeks ago and installed it. Lucky for me, I live 30 miles from Afco's headquarters AND I worked for a shop that does a lot of dirt track parts business with Afco. I picked up my 26" Dual Pass for a whopping $173 :D

I started off by relocating the battery, which has already been stated. To get this thing in the car, I bough 2 - 3'x1"x1/8" strips of 6061 alum and bent them into "J"shaped brackets lined with weather stripping to cradle the rad under the endtanks. I then used AllThread(sp) and locknuts to keep the top of the rad from moving around and finished it off with weather stripping to keep from rubbing. I used a Taurus fan which fit fine. The only problem I ran into was the return for the heater core. Since the lower rad outlet was 1 3/4" instead of 1 1/2", I had to build an adapter and introduce a "T" for the heater. I had a welder at work make me one out of scrap chromoly since it was free and going to get thrown away. The last hickup was that there is only a few inches between my lower rad adapter and the water pump housing. I managed to hack the old lower hose up enough to get it on there, but its not pretty. In hindsight, I would have made the adapter curved a bit so It wouldnt put the hose in such a bind. Ive put probably 300 miles on the thing and it seems to be hold up fine.

I didnt get a chance to take pictures before I headed back to school, but to say the least, This thing works well! On the interstate with the stock rad and fan, my streetport NA would run 185-190, read from the thermostat housing with a mechanical autometer gauge. NOW, with the new radiator and semi-restricitive Taurus fan and NO ducting between the rad and bumper (wasnt there when I got the car), The car runs dead on 180 cruising at 80mph. If I kick the fan on low, It pulls closer to 170-175!
Next time I get a change, Ill take some pictures for everyone.

where in indiana are you?

[Shainiac]

Around Evansville, but I go to school in Indy.

[WE3RX7]

I'd be interested to see your pics as I thought about the "Cradle" bracket method too..

[djmtsu]

I picked up my 26" Dual Pass for a whopping $173 :D


Why didn't you get this one instead?

http://www.afabcorp.com/AFCO_Dynatech_USbrake/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=A&Product_Code=80130FNDP&Category_Code=CS_cooling

[Shainiac]

The 26" that I got fits the stock rad passage just fine. I could have made the 28" fit, but it probably would have required cutting to allow air to the additional 2" of core width. Also, the rails for mounting the cradles would probably be sacrificed. With the 26", the clearance between my stock AFM and cone filter is already tight. I really doubt Im ever going to need that extra 2" anyways seeing how this radiator will keep more powerful cars with an intercooler cool. The folks down at Afco are really helpful. If I felt like paying a bit more, they offered to put on a 1-1/2" lower outlet and a 3/4" barb for the heater. I think they estimated around $60.

[vex]

i'll update closer to the weekend on what the plan is. I have been playing catch up on school work and my car has been at the shop for about the past week getting the bushings put in.

[Shainiac]

Any updates on your install?
Ive been doing some driving in my car since I got it installed and its working like a charm.
I had a chance to do some night driving at around 75F ambient temps.
With the Taurus fan on low, I was running 173F at around 60mph!
I made the mistake of turning my fan off because I was afraid It was running too low. I forgot to turn it back on when I got into the city and after a couple redlights, I noticed the needle climbing around 220F! I popped my last 2 motors because of a inferior cooling system. Id hate to blow this one because Im a dumbass.
I still havent taken any pictures of the setup. I have to admit that it isnt anything fancy and some might turn their nose and call it "ghetty". To some it might be, but being in college, broke, and pressed for time, I think it turned out alright. I suspect that It will be much more efficient after I get it all ducted with aluminum sheeting and alum tape. If I get some track time before winter, Im going to try to see how my temps are before I make any other changes.

[WE3RX7]

^ Why don't you run your fans through a thermal switch? Playing around with a simple on/off switch for the fan is dangerous. We lost a drag motor once that way, lol... expensive mistake!

[Shainiac]

I know I know! I had about 36 hours before I had to leave for college to get the stinkin radiator and fan fully opperational. I bought a $25 relay/185* switch combo, but it was a POS 25A relay and shoddy wiring. I opted to use the 40A relay I pulled from the Taurus I pilfered the fan from and hard wired it. I pretty much did this the night before I left. I couldnt think straight and wasnt sure what wires had switched 12V so I just ran it from the battery and put the toggle between the relay and a ground under the console. When I have time to go home, or make friends with someone with a garage, Ill find a switched 12V source and run the ground straight to the body. Ive driven the car a few times since the 220* mishap and its not bubbling coolant or hard to start, so I think I got lucky!

[WE3RX7]

Lol, you can use my garage - but i'm a bit far.

At least you know you need that switch. I have seen too many people who dont...

[Shainiac]

I was very skeptical about using the toggle switch method. I know I neglect my gauges too much anyways, which is why my aftermarket gauge is 2-5/8" and mounted on the gauge surround, 6" from my face. Even then, I get distracted driving around a city I dont know. But as a statement to how massive that rad is, It took less than 2 minutes to suck the gauge from 220 to 180 with my fan on low at idle.

[RETed]

220F is nothing.
The motor will tolerate 220F - 230F no problem.
My car used to regularly hit 225F, as I was using the stock thermo switch as a trigger.
(The stock thermo switch is supposed to switch at a 207F spec, but my SPI water temp gauge said it didn't trigger till 225F.)
We've had our race car hit 250F - beat that! - and it still held together on the track.
Not that I recommend doing this...


-Ted

[vex]

Got a quote from a local to get four brackets tig'd on will be around $30.

[WE3RX7]

Thats pretty good - better than my quote. Who's doing it?

[Shainiac]

Yeah Ted, I wasnt really loosing any sleep over 220, but Id like to prevent it. What stock sensor are you using for fan activation? There is a switch on the S4 thermostat neck on car with certain options, but my car didnt have one so thats where I mounted my temp gauge. Is this the one you are referring to? I thought about finding a 3/8" NPT sender from a domestic car that grounds out around 195 and just weld a bung below the upper rad inlet.

Vex, where are you getting the tabs welded? The rad already has a mounting tab along the top of that core. It lines up nicely with the stock rad support.

[vex]

Thats pretty good - better than my quote. Who's doing it?

A guy down here in CCVT. Pretty cool cat, does alot of work for the club.

[MaczPayne]

I've yet to surpass 100C (212F) in my car during 100F+ track events. This is with the CSF 2 row running an 80/20 mix and clutch fan.

[vex]

To add to the confusion of aluminum radiators I picked up some Royal Purple Purple Ice, Radiator Super-Coolant Additive. It's supposed to reduce radiator temperatures, condition water pump seals, and unsurpassed performance... Not sure what the third one has to do with anything. It comes in a 16oz bottle and is see-through purple. But here's the confusing part; on the back of the bottle it reads:

Be sure your cooling system is working properly. Radiator must be free of blockage and corrosion. Antifreeze should be fresh, properly mixed and filled to manufacturer's specifications. Using less than 50? antifreeze will further reduce engine temperatures. A minimum of 20% antifreeze should be used in street applications. Flush your system prior to use if another brand of coolant additive has been used. Do not use distilled water in an aluminum radiator.
Did I read that right? If you don't use distilled water on an aluminum radiator, what are you supposed to use? I'm confused... Think it's a typo?

[firzen]

What about the Redline Water Wetter- does that have the same or similar label?

Odd they would mention that, although I do know the Al-13 rads tend to suffer from galvanic corrosion, not diluting your antifreeze or coolant with the stuff seems weird...

[Whizbang]

from doing a little research and remembering some forgotten chemistry, i believe distilled water INCREASES the rate at which corrosion will occur.

[vex]

from doing a little research and remembering some forgotten chemistry, i believe distilled water INCREASES the rate at which corrosion will occur.

I thought distilled water was just straight H2O... If you can't use distilled water what are you supposed to use? 50/50 premix? I imagine 50/50 premix that has "Safe on Aluminum Radiators" on its label would be fine. But what if you want to mix your own stuff? maybe go 80/20 or 70/30 or any other which you want?

[Whizbang]

i think the impurities in hose water might actually prevent it. Distilled water usually is the preferred base for solutions in chemical reactions and the water wetter stuff might chemically react. who knows.

could call their tech support.

[WE3RX7]

Distilled water has a low pH. Water by nature tries to seek a balanced pH and when distilled water is put next to aluminum, it'll leach the minerals it wants from the alloy. This causes build up and soot in the radiator tubes.

If you use an "aluminum safe" antifreeze, you'll be ok as it has silicates in it on purpose to act as sacrificial mineral deposits.

[vex]

Distilled water has a low pH. Water by nature tries to seek a balanced pH and when distilled water is put next to aluminum, it'll leach the minerals it wants from the alloy. This causes build up and soot in the radiator tubes.

If you use an "aluminum safe" antifreeze, you'll be ok as it has silicates in it on purpose to act as sacrificial mineral deposits.

That makes sense, however the additive of the royal purple is alkiline(sp) based, I can't remember if alkilines will increase or decrease the PH balance. Anyone remember?

[Whizbang]

alkaline is anything over 7 on the PH scale.

[vex]

if that's the case, wouldn't distilled water be beneficial in equalizing the chemical reaction potential of the coolant? Assuming Distilled water is close to 6.5 or at the most 6 on the pH scale, and adding coolant in a 50/50 mix will jump it up to 7.3-8pH wouldn't adding the additive only marginally increase the pH to something more alkiline?

This is rather interesting to me.

[WE3RX7]

I would have to agree that the affects of using that additive in conjuction with distilled water and an AL safe coolant will be marginal. If anything, it'll tip closer to the alkaline level of the pH scale which is ultimately better than being acidic.

You maybe better with using a 60/40 though - it'll balance better IMHO. 50/50 would be good when not using that additive. How many ounces is that bottle? I know the stock coolant system is a little over two gallons I believe, we can probably figure this out, lol...

[Whizbang]

the other thing is that "close" neutral and neutral are still pretty different as far as science is concerned. Also things dont have over night either. Unless you have a Ph of like 11 or 12. But say its 8 or 6. Well your going to find yourself chemically reacting til things settle out.

[vex]

I would have to agree that the affects of using that additive in conjuction with distilled water and an AL safe coolant will be marginal. If anything, it'll tip closer to the alkaline level of the pH scale which is ultimately better than being acidic.

You maybe better with using a 60/40 though - it'll balance better IMHO. 50/50 would be good when not using that additive. How many ounces is that bottle? I know the stock coolant system is a little over two gallons I believe, we can probably figure this out, lol...
I think it's 16oz
the other thing is that "close" neutral and neutral are still pretty different as far as science is concerned. Also things dont have over night either. Unless you have a Ph of like 11 or 12. But say its 8 or 6. Well your going to find yourself chemically reacting til things settle out.8.3 is usually what happens when you mix distilled water and gylcol type anti-freeze together. I'll probably email RP with questions about it. (This is all going into the article about cooling. I just want to get my facts and stuff straight before typing it up)

[Whizbang]

well that makes sense then if its about 8.3

[WE3RX7]

Agreed. You should take measurements initially and then each day for about a week after driving. I'd be curious to see what the rate of reaction is and what it finally settles out at w/ that additive.

Somebody should do a control experiement as well w/out the additive. I don't have an engine or I would take care of this, lol...

[vex]

Agreed. You should take measurements initially and then each day for about a week after driving. I'd be curious to see what the rate of reaction is and what it finally settles out at w/ that additive.

Somebody should do a control experiement as well w/out the additive. I don't have an engine or I would take care of this, lol...

I'd love to, but I don't have anything that can measure pH balance. I wonder how much a meter costs from a pool supply store, or even some testing strips....

I'm thinking something like this:
http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Water-Testing/Electronic-Testers/pH-Pocket-Pal-Tester/D/30100/P/1:100:4000:400020/I/82053

[Whizbang]

strip testing kits are pretty inexpensive.

[firzen]

Tongue works too- if it's acidic, it's sour. If it's basic, it's bitter.

Oh wait, this stuff is poisonous right? Forgot... :p

[RETed]

Yeah Ted, I wasnt really loosing any sleep over 220, but Id like to prevent it. What stock sensor are you using for fan activation? There is a switch on the S4 thermostat neck on car with certain options, but my car didnt have one so thats where I mounted my temp gauge. Is this the one you are referring to? I thought about finding a 3/8" NPT sender from a domestic car that grounds out around 195 and just weld a bung below the upper rad inlet.

I was using the stock electric fan circuit.
I threw away the POS stock electric fan, and I wired in a relay through the existing circuit.
I had my SPI water temp gauge monitoring everything.
The warning light was looking for a specific resistance through the circuit, and the relay wasn't enough - it would light the warning light anytime the fan would trigger - was rather convenient at the time.

Now I use a Spal PWM-FAN controller using the SPI water temp sensor.

Side note on the whole corrosion thing...
Distilled water is not as bad as RO water; I think the "leeching effects" are rather mild versus RO water.
Oxidized aluminum makes a very effective barrier against corrosion - this is the whole idea behind aluminum anodizing.


-Ted

[vex]

Time for a resurrection

Ted, how did you fit the radiator in your 7? No matter how I cock it I can't seem to get it to lay correctly without having it stick out the bottom below the oil cooler, or interfere with the front sway bar.

I'm honestly thinking about switching to a smaller height radiator to allow me to do a completely vertical mounting of the radiator.

[TitaniumTT]

Okay people, I'm going to need your help from here on out. I would like real world numbers from people. Those running stock radiators I would like you to voice your opinions concerning them. Vitally important details I would really like to see would be Ambient Air temperatures, Water temperatures at idle (nominal), water temperatures at cruise and if possible under load as well.

For those who have already swapped over to an aluminum radiator I would like similiar information.
Ambient air temperatures.

Anything from 20*-95*F

Coolant Temperatures at Idle.

Never exceed 187*F

Coolant Temperatures under load and/or cruise.
168-173* on the highway, will hit 180-185* after 4 hours of constant 4th gear dyno pulls

Also I would like to know how much body modification you had to do to mount the radiators, and if how much time you spent doing so.

:rofl:

It's a Griffen universal, singlepass, Ford/Chevy opposite side in/out which worked out better for my setup. Cost was about $180 IIRC.

I've found that ducting is the key.

What about the Redline Water Wetter- does that have the same or similar label?

Odd they would mention that, although I do know the Al-13 rads tend to suffer from galvanic corrosion, not diluting your antifreeze or coolant with the stuff seems weird...

Don't use water wetter. It attacks ans liquifies the coolant seals

Time for a resurrection

Ted, how did you fit the radiator in your 7? No matter how I cock it I can't seem to get it to lay correctly without having it stick out the bottom below the oil cooler, or interfere with the front sway bar.

I'm honestly thinking about switching to a smaller height radiator to allow me to do a completely vertical mounting of the radiator.

Bring her to me! MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA! Or wait a few weeks and we'll be passing through your neighborhood.

[moremazda]

Time for a resurrection

Ted, how did you fit the radiator in your 7? No matter how I cock it I can't seem to get it to lay correctly without having it stick out the bottom below the oil cooler, or interfere with the front sway bar.

I'm honestly thinking about switching to a smaller height radiator to allow me to do a completely vertical mounting of the radiator.

I don't know what size you have but here are some pictures of a 27.5x19 fitting in the stock location ---> http://shookmotorsports.com/FCProducts

[RETed]

For my car, I had to cut the flange off the stock radiator mounts.
I had to bang the existing sheet metal just a little here and there to get the fit to be tight - keep in mind, tight is good to keep air flowing around the radiator.

Stock battery must be relocated; the stock battery tray gets in the way.
I've heard of people using really tiny gel-cell's, but I don't like running small CCA rated batteries in my street car; these set-up's notch or modify the stock battery tray.

It's a really really tight fit.
The rad cap is the closest thing to the stock (turbo ) hood.
We drop the rad until the radiator cap barely clears - like 1/4" clearance.
Yeah, the bottom of the rad ends up slightly lower than the oil cooler, but the front sway bar / engine subframe sits about the same or slightly lower.


-Ted

[FC3S Murray]

S4 Koyo WITH corksport fan shroud and low mile OEM viscous fan. Custom ducting for RAD and OIL COOLER off of the FMIC.

My temps at idle with brand new OEM water thermo sensor and prosport gauges: 80*C/176* F

Cruise/light load: 78*C/ 172* F, sometimes 77* C if above 40mph for sometime(no freeways in Montana and havent took her on the highway yet to see ducting efficiency)

Constant atmospheric pressure pulls: 80*C

When I actually start boosting I will record results BUT my last motor doing 4-5 constant 4th gear WOT pulls on the highway for tuning, my temps never went above 85* C with the same radiator. MIND YOU this was before my ducting too, ambient temp that day was 62* F.


I really believe in what Brian said about ducting. It works wonders.

[vex]

For my car, I had to cut the flange off the stock radiator mounts.
I had to bang the existing sheet metal just a little here and there to get the fit to be tight - keep in mind, tight is good to keep air flowing around the radiator.

Stock battery must be relocated; the stock battery tray gets in the way.
I've heard of people using really tiny gel-cell's, but I don't like running small CCA rated batteries in my street car; these set-up's notch or modify the stock battery tray.

It's a really really tight fit.
The rad cap is the closest thing to the stock (turbo ) hood.
We drop the rad until the radiator cap barely clears - like 1/4" clearance.
Yeah, the bottom of the rad ends up slightly lower than the oil cooler, but the front sway bar / engine subframe sits about the same or slightly lower.


-Ted
Cause for the life of me I can't seem to figure out a way to squeeze it in height wise. I have plenty of room from side to side. A picture or two on how you mounted yours would go a long way I figure.

[vex]

I'm looking at picking up one of these radiators for a new mounting scheme (minimizing intrusion into the engine bay)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AFC-80104N/?image=large

Yea, or nay?

[TitaniumTT]

My buddy has a Summit rad (griffin) that he'll probably be selling. PM me if you're interested. Brandy new, never used. Lemme know if you're at all interested.

That Afco one looks nice though....... mmmmmm doublepass

[vex]

My buddy has a Summit rad (griffin) that he'll probably be selling. PM me if you're interested. Brandy new, never used. Lemme know if you're at all interested.

That Afco one looks nice though....... mmmmmm doublepass

I only do double passes now. Makes the temps go down compared to stock. I'm hoping for it for Christmas.

[vex]

Alright I did some more searching:
Yea or Nay on these (I'm wondering if they have enough surface area):
http://www.afabcorp.com/AFCO_Dynatech_USbrake/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=A&Product_Code=80133N&Category_Code=hr_dbl-pass-rad

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AFC-80104N/?image=large

A little help will go a long way on this. I'm trying to do a perpendicular mount without intrusion into the engine bay area.

[Shainiac]

The first link is the radiator I am using. It us plenty big. My car is mainly a street car and it almost too big for that. I am on my third OEM thermostat. The thing keeps the t-stat cycling so much that it eventually wears out and stays open. I've had a large piece of cardboard in front of it for the majority of winter and still never use the fan unless Im in bumper to bumper traffic. Both of those rads you have listed will take a bit of work to get installed. with my 26"x 20", I had to relocate the battery, make mounting brackets, and fab a 1-3/4 to 1-1/2 adapter with a 3/4" barb for the heater return. I really need to take pictures and post them, but Im ashamed of my leaky front cover and excessive blow by mess. When it warms up, I might do a little cleaning and snap some pics.

[Mazdabater]

I'm running a PWR radiator. Works like a champ, probably too expensive for the average fc owner but I'll have the car running in 2 or 3 months if you want some data on it