Not Starting, not flooded (maybe)

[RotaryBC]

2005 RX-8 Shinka
6 Speed
147,000 miles (not by me)

A lot of oil on the front of the engine (oil was at the last dot on dipstick)
The issues is starting – The dealer said, “I parked in the shop next time to move it, it would not start.

Update: 13 July
Engine shot
Going to frame shop

Removed from the car:
Battery
Coils
Coil Wires
Plugs (hand tighten in engine)
Air box
Eccentric Shaft Sensor

On Order:
Plugs
Wires
Coils

When I saw the car they showed me it would turn over (engine not seized), I just wonder how many other people they did that for?

When I got it home and off the trailer I tried to start it and saw the gas needle was on empty
I put some gas in it, turned the key, but did not try to start, and did see the gas needle move (did not raise till I put some gas in it)

What I plan to do:

Replace the spark plugs
connect the new battery
pour in 5 gals of racing fuel
try to start
This has changed.

[Fendamonky]

Did you just buy this car?

You can probably save the race gas.. I don't really think it's necessary for trying to start it.

Have you tried push-starting it? Have you verified that the coils are working properly?

[RotaryBC]

Yes, just purchased 6 Jul 16

I thought about pushing, wasn't sure about it being a rotary

I was going to check the coils and wires, when I replace the spark plugs.
Replacing the spark plugs tonight

I am focusing on the gas gage being on empty, you know the dealers never want to put gas in any car they sell (used car dealers)

Also:
The engine has a lot of oil on the front, from the Alt. to the bottom of the engine block

The oil filter had 6-18-15 written on it, should I do a fresh oil change before I attempt to start or wait till I get it starting? The dipstick read oil at the last dot, I put in a fresh qt.

[Fendamonky]

Yes, just purchased 6 Jul 16

I thought about pushing, wasn't sure about it being a rotary

I was going to check the coils and wires, when I replace the spark plugs.
Replacing the spark plugs tonight

I am focusing on the gas gage being on empty, you know the dealers never want to put gas in any car they sell (used car dealers)

Also:
The engine has a lot of oil on the front, from the Alt. to the bottom of the engine block

The oil filter had 6-18-15 written on it, should I do a fresh oil change before I attempt to start or wait till I get it starting? The dipstick read oil at the last dot, I put in a fresh qt.

Push starting is fine on a rotary. I'm not as familiar with rx-8's, but signs of oil leaking like that is never a good thing...

I'd say pull the plugs to see if they're damp. You can crank the engine with the plugs out and, I believe, the EGI fuse removed to deflood the engine. Or, I'm fairly certain if you just put the gas pedal ALL the way down and crank it should also cut the fuel. Doing that a few times should clear out any flooding.

If your plugs are wet and fouled than replacing them will definitely be a good thing to do.

If the car won't start after it's been deflooded and has new plugs in than try the push start.. If the engine starts but runs rough as hell and scrapey, shut it off IMMEDIATELY, and take that shit back to the dealership for either a refund or a $5k discount, because that's what the rebuild will likely cost you...

[RotaryBC]

I didn't pay a lot for it, because it would not start (stole it).

I did go into this with open eyes to the problem.

I knew the rebuild would be 5K, I have been looking on the forums since I got my first RX-8 (2012). This is the moding car, track day car, just liability insurance.

[chibikougan]

http://foxed.ca/index.php?page=rx7manual#rx8

[RotaryBC]

Thank you for the link!

[JL1RX7]

I would change everything. With that many miles on the RENI I would bet it's blown. Seeing oil on the front isn't a good sign. 8's have had a problem with corrosion on the oil cooler lines and splitting. So it's a good bet that's happened if it's been a northern car all its life.

I would recommend a complete fluid change, new plugs and especially new coils. A fully charged battery, real 91 or so gas fill to at least half a tank and try to start her.

Things to check/clean the SSV and the MAP sensor. Both are known to cause hard starting issues.

[Fendamonky]

^^^ Listen to him. Jack knows rx-8's pretty damn well.

[RotaryBC]

Hello All,

I connected the battery turned it over for 5-7 seconds..nothing

after about 3 mins of this it started to putter then I smelled the gas so I stopped.

The motor didn't have any unusual noises.

I removed the air box

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7FtTqM6VnAJUFdjU3piVkJaRkU/view?usp=sharing

The oil is the new oil I put in it yesterday...what could that mean, besides flooding?

As you can see there is a lot of oil on the front of the engine, I did this close-up of the closest coil

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7FtTqM6VnAJT1M3Ty1HNWdKX3c/view?usp=sharing

Found service records in the glove box, let's hope some of his records got lost!

Looking at the records he replaced the plugs back in Jan 2015 between oil changes 131K and 141K. On the 141K service (148K total) it was noted:
“STARTING DIFFICULTIES”
“CUSTOMER AWARE”

Looking at the picture the coils are oem and I saw the blue&green tape on the wires.

I think the oil killed a coil or damaged a wire.

When I have more time to get dirty:

Continue to remove items to get to and remove the coils and wires
Clean them up
Test them
Then order new ones any way..

Read what JL1RX7 said about the mass air flow sensor and took these two pictures of the air box

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJLVdBckFxQXMxVEk

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJdUJ2QVA5ancxaGs

Bit of cleaning and maybe new air filter?

[JL1RX7]

More than a bit of cleaning! Never seen that much oil up that high on the motor. Looks like they drenched those coils in oil. Replace them all, clean everything and see what you got. But from the sounds of it it's blown. You can use a cheapo compression tester to get ball park numbers.

Also be careful of what you read on eight club. Lots of good info on there. But lots of armchair bullshit with it. Follow the tech stuff on how to pull it apart. The rest is mostly opinions. So you generally get one piece of good info in a thread with rest either wrong or lies. It can be difficult to figure out which is which.

[RotaryBC]

I have ordered the wires, coils, plugs and air filter, will not arrive till 19th
When I remove them, I will give them a test and clean the area, to be ready for the new ones

HF compression tester??

Right I have learned one thing already:

READ then DO; not DO then READ

Yeah, just say "Synthetic will hurt your Grandmother"

[RotaryBC]

Speaking of cleaning, what cleaner or cleaning solution to use on the engine, and how I should use it and any odd things, like it will shrink your testicles, in CA

[JL1RX7]

Dawn soap might be cheapest. Anything really to cut the oil. Just be sure to protect the electric stuff's. And won't eat soft seals. So lots of elbow grease and rags.

[RotaryBC]

Yes, on the rags

The oil cooler lines are dry, front seal?

[JL1RX7]

Possible, but usually that's lower on the block. Either the injectors are clogged and the OMP kept pumping or the SSV did something. But around the coils no oil lines are close. Fill tube and oil filter are further back.

[RotaryBC]

Good!?

...OMP...SSV...???

I want to find it in the manuals easier.

There was fresh oil in the throttle body and the air box.

Off to HF for gloves and buckets for cleaning!!

[JL1RX7]

Oil metering pump, secondary shutter valve.

Not really good, as in why and how did it get there. Was someone an idiot and spill oil everywhere? Or something else. Hopefully just an idiot.

[RotaryBC]

Removed the coils, wires and plugs

Plugs:
Top Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJQk1iQkdVR1NkMkU)
Lower Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJcm8wLWJhekk3SkE)

Top Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJU0phVzF5NFB2NEk)
Lower Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJY0xZc2pxdzRYN0k)

Wires To:
Top Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJaXlWRkNGX21ybHM)
Lower Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJU3BPUlVsME9IZDg)

Top Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJWW9rZjhJX1VtNEk)
Lower Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJMXNXVGJOLWtBMmM)

Coils tested good

Secondary shutter valve...are you kidding me?

The tech manual starts at “Remove the front bumper”

I thought it was bad when it said “Drain the coolant”

Did see the three valves...the bottom one had oil on it

Tell me what you think about the plugs

[TitaniumTT]

I'd say pull the plugs to see if they're damp. You can crank the engine with the plugs out and, I believe, the EGI fuse removed to deflood the engine. Or, I'm fairly certain if you just put the gas pedal ALL the way down and crank it should also cut the fuel. Doing that a few times should clear out any flooding.

Not true. Most of the time with questionable plugs they need to be pulled and cleaned, and the engine cranked over for 20-30 seconds without the starter to really clear it out

If the car won't start after it's been deflooded and has new plugs in than try the push start.. If the engine starts but runs rough as hell and scrapey, shut it off IMMEDIATELY, and take that shit back to the dealership for either a refund or a $5k discount, because that's what the rebuild will likely cost you...

I've yet to see a renni fail from an oil related problem. Most of them just get tired sticky and cranky and loose compression

I would change everything. With that many miles on the RENI I would bet it's blown. Seeing oil on the front isn't a good sign. 8's have had a problem with corrosion on the oil cooler lines and splitting. So it's a good bet that's happened if it's been a northern car all its life.

Blown is a little harsh... lets not forget FrankenB's donor. Nothing was broken on that engine, just a dirty TB, and MAF sensor, and the internals were all sticky and pissed off.... but nothing was blown

new plugs and especially new coils.

Werd..... new coils... I don't even want to think about how many engines were replaced under warranty because of faulty coils.

A fully charged battery, real 91 or so gas fill to at least half a tank and try to start her.

91 gas? What is that phaggotry

Things to check/clean the SSV and the MAP sensor. Both are known to cause hard starting issues.

And TB, don't forget the TB :lol:

[QUOTE=JL1RX7;332817]Also be careful of what you read on eight club. Lots of good info on there. But lots of armchair bullshit with it. Follow the tech stuff on how to pull it apart. The rest is mostly opinions. So you generally get one piece of good info in a thread with rest either wrong or lies. It can be difficult to figure out which is which.

That....

Possible, but usually that's lower on the block. Either the injectors are clogged and the OMP kept pumping or the SSV did something. But around the coils no oil lines are close. Fill tube and oil filter are further back.

Fill tube and oil filter tend to do alot of leaking though if someone is trying to fill the engine in the hurry

Removed the coils, wires and plugs

Plugs:
Top Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJQk1iQkdVR1NkMkU)
Lower Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJcm8wLWJhekk3SkE)

Top Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJU0phVzF5NFB2NEk)
Lower Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJY0xZc2pxdzRYN0k)

Wires To:
Top Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJaXlWRkNGX21ybHM)
Lower Front (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJU3BPUlVsME9IZDg)

Top Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJWW9rZjhJX1VtNEk)
Lower Rear (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7FtTqM6VnAJMXNXVGJOLWtBMmM)

Coils tested good

Secondary shutter valve...are you kidding me?

The tech manual starts at “Remove the front bumper”

I thought it was bad when it said “Drain the coolant”

Did see the three valves...the bottom one had oil on it

Tell me what you think about the plugs

:rofl: Sooooo much wrong there... especially with remove front bumper.

OK.... soooooo look.... You've really not done much here to troubleshoot anything. You pulled the plugs... now compression test it.

Put the #2 plugs back in, pull th TB off, pull the EGI fuse and crank the engine over and LISTEN very carefully. Every compression stroke should should sound the same and be the same time apart. Does it?

Yes - Install the compression tested with the schrader valve and crank for 15 seconds. Report the numbers

No - I hear a psh whooo whoo psh. Engine Blown. I give this a 10% possibility

Repeat for the rear rotor.

Next step, install ALL NEW PLUGS & WIRES & COILS

Next, drain the gas

Next, Add fresh gas!

Next, try to start it with the key.

If that doesn't work, pull start.

[RotaryBC]

Put the #2 plugs back in, pull th TB off, pull the EGI fuse and crank the engine over and LISTEN very carefully. Every compression stroke should should sound the same and be the same time apart. Does it?

#2 = Lower plug?
What is EGI?

[Fendamonky]

#2 = Lower plug?
What is EGI?

It is one of the large fuses in your engine bay. The fuse box cover should have it labeled like this:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4256390266_c78dd0680a.jpg

[TitaniumTT]

No, #2 ROTOR. The rear. You need to separate the chambers so as it's rotating you can hear if one rotor is "blown" or the other is. It's known as the poor mans compression test. Personally, I call it the experienced rotor guru's compression test. By listening you can tell what's bad and whats not, and generally how healthy an engine is.

The EGI fuse is the fuse for the ECU. Basically the ECU needs to be off or when you rotate the engine for the compression test, the injectors will fire, and so will the coils. Don't need to explain why that would be bad if two plugs were missing

[TitaniumTT]

That's from an FC. The 8 is completely different

[Fendamonky]

That's from an FC. The 8 is completely different

Yeah, I just google image searched for "rx8 egi fuse", I wasn't sure if it specifically belonged to an 8 or not. I figured at the least he'd get the general idea of what to look for :lol:

(I'm bored as hell at work, please forgive me.. :rofl:)

[TitaniumTT]

If bored, find me a new BAC valve for an FD for ~$100... all the ones I'm seeing are >3x that price

[Fendamonky]

:suspect:


On it.. :lol:

[RotaryBC]

If bored, find me a new BAC valve for an FD for ~$100... all the ones I'm seeing are >3x that price

Was that a drive by thread jacking?

Pulled the TB found the EGI fuse and relay. Should I remove the Eccentric Shaft Position Sensor for this test?

Also all 4 plugs were the lower plugs.

[TitaniumTT]

Was that a drive by thread jacking?

If it was?

Pulled the TB found the EGI fuse and relay. Should I remove the Eccentric Shaft Position Sensor for this test?

Removing the CAS plug is a PITA to do, easier to pull the fuse

Also all 4 plugs were the lower plugs.

Super rare 26B RX8?

[RotaryBC]

New problem:confused:
It won't turn over.

Time out, I keep forgetting this is a manual!!

I did remove the ESP sensor (it was only one bolt)

Going back out side!

[RotaryBC]

No, still no start

Pressed, gas peddle and clutch peddle

Stare at this tomorrow.

[Fendamonky]

Was that a drive by thread jacking?

It's fairly typical on the interwebs, I'd say it was merely a minor side conversation though. Now... if the thread suddenly changed and we all started posting up pictures comparing My Little Pony erotic fan art... THEN I'd say you suffered from a thread derailment :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[RotaryBC]

Just being funny

The not turning over issue, I think it is the throttle body not being on the car. Coolant runs thru the throttle body, I can see if the TB is not present, then do not start.

[TitaniumTT]

Dude, WTF is going on here. You're trying to find out whether or not the engine is blown right? Do a compression test and put the thing to bed once and for all.

Are you seriously trying to start it w/o a throttle body?

[RotaryBC]

Are you seriously trying to start it w/o a throttle body?
No, I'm trying to turn over the engine.

The starter is not engaging, thus not turning over.

[Fendamonky]

I think he's more wondering why you're trying to crank the engine at all without the throttle body installed.

[TitaniumTT]

Cranking w/o the TB is fine, trying to start it, not so much though.

I'm wondering if the EGI fuse helps power the starter.

Is it not engaging or just not spinning, not doing anything at all?

[RotaryBC]

Put the #2 plugs back in, pull th TB off, pull the EGI fuse and crank the engine over and LISTEN very carefully
I did what he said?
The fuse is marked IG on mine, I did find what I think is a relay that is marked EGI.
I pulled the TB and the fuse marked IG, put compression tester in Top #1 plug hole, spark plug in lower #1 plug hole, I put plugs in #2.
Connected battery
depressed clutch peddle
depressed accelerator peddle
Turned the key

Nothing, no click, nothing

[TitaniumTT]

The relay and starting circuit are different on the 8 than the other models. Pulling the IG fuse may prevent power from going to the solenoid.
You MAY have to pull the CAS plug and reinstall the EGI fuse.

[Dannobre]

The oil in the air filter can be from from the oil fill..the oil can run run down the breather tube into the air filter. Looking at your pictures though it looks like it has been blowing oil out into the intake...usually that is a poor compression issue

You should clean your MAF..it is likely flooded with the oil from the intake

The front seal can leak...but another common place for the RX-8 to leak is from the oil metering pump area. Oil on top of the engine is often a leaking o-ring where the oil fill tube and the iron meet. The nuts there seem to get loose easily and leak

If they are the original coils then replace them...and the wires and plugs. They are a well known weak point on the Renesis


The easiest way to try and start it is to pull it... Check the spark with a spark tester or an inductive timing light if it won't start.




Pull the ES sensor plug to do the compression test...it is easier than anything else

Another thing to try is reset the Eccentric shaft profile...it's the key on...pump the brakes 20+ times quickly until the oil guage sweeps. The ES sensor controls the ignition and injection ...so it is always a good thing to reset if you don't know whats been done to the car

With that kind of mileage , unless you got a unicorn...it likely has low compression and needs a rebuild


Edit...sorry for the repeat for some reason I just read the first page ;(

[RotaryBC]

Compression Test:
#1 = 50psi
#2 = didn't do

[RotaryBC]

What do we do with this thread, just let it die?

I'm taking the car to a frame shop to check it out. If the frame is straight or can be straightened I will attempt the engine swap.

Until the frame shop!

[RotaryBC]

It starts and runs
Saturday I did the de-flooding procedures, it started and smoked, I keep it running until the smoke subsided.
Drove it a short distance on the road, shut it off, restarted it, shut it off for the day.
Sunday, I tried to start it, it would not start, started the de-flooding procedure again, forgot to press the gas petal before turning the key, it starter right up.

Could this mean the engine is a good rebuild candidate?

I've read the rebuilders web sites, they read, that most engines are too damaged to be rebuilt.

[JL1RX7]

Kevin Landers of Rotary Resurrection in Morristown Tennessee. He is the home of the budget rebuilds. Quality work with no bull shit. Until the keg is cracked open no real way of knowing the true condition of it.

[TitaniumTT]

It starts and runs
Saturday I did the de-flooding procedures, it started and smoked, I keep it running until the smoke subsided.
Drove it a short distance on the road, shut it off, restarted it, shut it off for the day.
Sunday, I tried to start it, it would not start, started the de-flooding procedure again, forgot to press the gas petal before turning the key, it starter right up.

Could this mean the engine is a good rebuild candidate?

I've read the rebuilders web sites, they read, that most engines are too damaged to be rebuilt.

:rofl: The donor for FrankenB had all the same problems. Everything internal was immaculate save the housings had the typical wear caused by the assist piece. Built my Treffeisen Special Renni and it did 207rwhp

[RotaryBC]

Update:

I have it starting (warm and from cold), warms to operating temperature, with no problems.

I still don't know were the oil came from, I have ran it to temperature twice now, don't see any new oil leaking.

Questions:

Do I have a good starting low compression engine now?

Where around the oil metering pump should I look (front, bottom, connects to the block..)?

Should I premix to be sure? At what rate should I premix?

I want to save this unicorn!

[JL1RX7]

Compression test will tell. No amount of arm chair diagnosing will tell you hard numbers.

Yes, everywhere the oil lines lead.

Premix is considered good practice no matter what's going on with the engine.

[TitaniumTT]

.5oz/gallon at every fill. And bllock the OMP as well with the RA adapter.

[TitaniumTT]

I'm confused as to why you're still asking about compression without actually doing a compression test?