De-ABSing the FD

[Fendamonky]

Ok, so I'm getting rid of my ABS during the current chapter of my rebuild (which reminds me a little bit of the old movie Groundhog Day :lol:).

I've already stripped out the ABS Module and am kind of playing it by ear on where I want to go from here regarding whether I want to retain the stock lines, proportioning valve, and MC.

I'm using my (non-ABS) '93 Miata for comparison as I really don't have much experience with brake hydraulics.

The FD has 5 brake lines with the ABS unit installed, 2x feed lines from the MC to the ABS module, and 3x lines running to the front and rear brakes. The proportioning valve mounted on the ABS module has a single input, and 3 outputs.

My thoughts are that I could just "y" the two feed lines together and run them to the input for the prop valve and then connect the Right Front, Left Front, and Rear lines then be done with it. I just want to be sure that's a good idea though, and it's not going to have some unforeseen fuck-up later on that may cause an accident...


My other concern is whether or not the stock MC is going to work well enough with the removal of the ABS module considering I've got bigger brakes up front (Wilwood BBK) and in the rear (Racebrake oversized kit). If I'm going to need/want to upgrade or otherwise change out the brake MC now would be the time to do it...

I'd love some input from people smarter than me about this :lol:

Cheers,

Levi

[gsnyder79]

Would you consider selling the front right ABS sensor?

[Fendamonky]

Would you consider selling the front right ABS sensor?

At this point I'd rather keep it all in place, and I say this for a few reasons:

1) Extra effort to remove it, when it won't hurt to let it remain.

2) My ECU is capable of running Traction Control, and in the future I may decide to activate that option. The ABS sensors could well double as sensors for the TC, so I'd best keep them in place.

3) I have no idea what it is/would be worth, and I don't want to A) insult you with a retardly high price, or B) sell myself short by selling it for stupid cheap.

I'll let you know if I change my mind though!

[speedjunkie]

I just deleted my ABS also, and kept the stock proportioning valve because I'm about to switch to RZ brakes (aka, a larger, thicker, stock brake system).

First of all, DAMMIT! I removed all my ABS sensors from the wheels, and I remember reading the Adaptronic can do a form of traction control, but I'm not sure if it would use those sensors as a reading so it may be alright lol.

I had gotten a delete kit from Alex Rodriguez, but a local guy did his with seamless copper line from Advance Auto parts and used the stock proportioning valve (and since I'm sticking with a form of stock brakes, I wanted to do mine like that too instead of an aftermarket valve), so I copied his setup. Well, almost. Mine is a little different. Like him, I made a mount to mount the valve directly under the master cylinder, but I mounted mine at a different angle. Here are some pics...

Here is the mount...
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140708_210326_zpsnjfomekm.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140708_210326_zpsnjfomekm.jpg.html)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140708_210429_zpsscrfo86p.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140708_210429_zpsscrfo86p.jpg.html)

And here are some pics of how it's mounted. I remade some of these lines and replaced some fittings already because I had a problem with it leaking, but I think it's good now.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140707_211916_zpsbznezfuy.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140707_211916_zpsbznezfuy.jpg.html)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140707_211843_zpsulfttbhe.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140707_211843_zpsulfttbhe.jpg.html)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140708_213426_zps92x04tug.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140708_213426_zps92x04tug.jpg.html)


I ran the line to the passenger front under the crush rail so you can't see it.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140707_211834_zpspe3roofb.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140707_211834_zpspe3roofb.jpg.html)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140707_211828_zps2rdojgwx.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140707_211828_zps2rdojgwx.jpg.html)

I rebent the front lines coming into the bay from the wheel wells so they could meet up with the lines I made.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140707_211817_zpsavzc6hcd.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140707_211817_zpsavzc6hcd.jpg.html)

The lines that I remade look better because I used a tubing bender and got the bends a lot tighter and cleaner, but I don't have any pics of it now. I can take some if you want.

[Fendamonky]

Looks really nice man!! What did you do about the single input for the prop valve wrt the two lines pushing from the MC?

[speedjunkie]

Are you talking about splitting the line to go to both front brakes? If so, you should be able to see in pics 3 and 5 the tee fitting I used. I think you can find a M8x1.0 tee fitting (I'm pretty sure that's the stock fitting thread), but I used 3/8" and did only those three fittings in 3/8", the rest are metric. I got everything at Advance Auto Parts, except the bender tool I got from Autozone IIRC. Whatever tee fitting you get, just make sure they cut the threads deep enough so you can tighten the fitting down far enough for it to not leak. I believe that's what the problem was with the first tee fitting I had. The middle line would not stop leaking. I remade that line four times until I thought about it lol.

Oh and another thing, I ABHOR using the flaring tools you can get from any parts store or Harbor Freight. I'm still not sure if it was just bad tee fitting and couplers or if it was the shitty flare the tool made, but I was seriously thinking about getting the Eastwood tool. I was going to if it still leaked.

[Fendamonky]

I was referring more to where you plumbed in the two lines leading from the Master Cylinder. I was trying to figure out what goes where in the proportioning valve, I think I've got it now though...

Heres the Prop Valve:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/Fendamonky/My%207%20Stuff/20140824_172605_zps08jcx9so.jpg (http://s281.photobucket.com/user/Fendamonky/media/My%207%20Stuff/20140824_172605_zps08jcx9so.jpg.html)

Essentially the two ports on the left are the "in" ports from the MC, and the two ports are the out ports leading to the brakes. The upper one leads to the front brakes, and the lower one leads to the rear, correct?


Yeah, I had run out to one of the chain autoparts stores (I can't remember if it was Advanced or Autozone) and picked up a bunch of their cheap pipe tools. After consulting with BAW I returned them, as it was a waste and I'd end up binning them all anyway :rofl: I'm just gunna borrow quality tools from Mike :)

[speedjunkie]

Yep, that's it. The way we have it plumbed is the outlet of the master cylinder that's closest to the brake booster (directly under the reservoir) goes to the front brakes and the one at the end of the master cylinder goes to the rear brakes. I just copied the other guy's setup, I haven't actually used it yet but it seems to work on his car lol. I'll take a pic and post it.

[Fendamonky]

Ah, right on :)

[speedjunkie]

Ok, I'm an idiot lol. Last night I had it typed out correctly and then changed it thinking I had it wrong. Turns out I was right the first time. The port directly under the reservoir goes to the rear brakes, and the port at the end of the master cylinder goes to the front brakes. Here are pics of the current setup. I finally got them to stop seeping but I'm still paranoid lol, thus the towels. The whole system is pressurized and the brakes are bled, but I'm paranoid because the engine bay has fresh paint also. The bender tool dinked the lines a little but it made the bends much tighter and cleaner looking. I ran the line for the front brakes between the master cylinder and the reservoir just because it seemed like the most direct route.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140828_004613_zpsp8ctlxg1.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140828_004613_zpsp8ctlxg1.jpg.html)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140828_004622_zpsyx9ymoe1.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140828_004622_zpsyx9ymoe1.jpg.html)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140828_004641_zpsgyzyo915.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140828_004641_zpsgyzyo915.jpg.html)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/20140828_004632_zpsfmpwxta5.jpg (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/speedjunkie23/media/20140828_004632_zpsfmpwxta5.jpg.html)

[Garfinkles Motor Works]

I still have ABS but the master cylinder has been changed to a cylinder out of a Mazda 929 .It is slightly longer and has a bigger bore. Works very well .

[Fendamonky]

I still have ABS but the master cylinder has been changed to a cylinder out of a Mazda 929 .It is slightly longer and has a bigger bore. Works very well .

Were there any issues with the shared fluid reservoir on the 929 MC? I've never looked at one to know..

[speedjunkie]

I still have ABS but the master cylinder has been changed to a cylinder out of a Mazda 929 .It is slightly longer and has a bigger bore. Works very well .

Instead of the stock 15/16" it's a full 1". I've thought about doing that for a big brake kit to push the extra fluid, but I was told it wasn't required. I guess now would have been the time to do it since I'd need to bend the lines anyway lol.

[C. Ludwig]

I've used the cheap flare tools with a bit of success but have since started having a local brake specialist cut and flare all my lines. I use coat hanger or similar to lay out the lines and get a length and take that and the tube nuts in and have them make up the lines. The line is higher quality and has proven to be more corrosion resistant than what I'd bought through Summit and the flares never leak. Stainless line is also an option if you want something that looks really nice. Just to be clear, this shop isn't one of the $99 four wheel brake places. They do mostly fleet service and do top rate stuff. Any decently large town should have something similar in the area.

Also, working in the OE production world, one of the tricks we use on leaky flare fittings is tighten and loosen the fitting 4-5 times in succession. Many times this will help a flare that's not quite right to get itself sealed up.

[RXtacy]

I had gotten a delete kit from Alex Rodriguez, but a local guy did his with seamless copper line from Advance Auto parts and used the stock proportioning valve (and since I'm sticking with a form of stock brakes, I wanted to do mine like that too instead of an aftermarket valve), so I copied his setup.

It may seem like semantics, but I hope that is actually Nickle/Copper alloy tubing which is DOT approved. Plain copper tubing would not be a good idea for a brake system.

[GySgtFrank]

I've used the cheap flare tools with a bit of success but have since started having a local brake specialist cut and flare all my lines. I use coat hanger or similar to lay out the lines and get a length and take that and the tube nuts in and have them make up the lines. The line is higher quality and has proven to be more corrosion resistant than what I'd bought through Summit and the flares never leak. Stainless line is also an option if you want something that looks really nice. Just to be clear, this shop isn't one of the $99 four wheel brake places. They do mostly fleet service and do top rate stuff. Any decently large town should have something similar in the area.

Also, working in the OE production world, one of the tricks we use on leaky flare fittings is tighten and loosen the fitting 4-5 times in succession. Many times this will help a flare that's not quite right to get itself sealed up.


It may seem like semantics, but I hope that is actually Nickle/Copper alloy tubing which is DOT approved. Plain copper tubing would not be a good idea for a brake system.


http://fedhillusa.com/

The flaring tools they sell/rent are top notch and the tubing beats the hell out of automotive store tubing.

[speedjunkie]

I've used the cheap flare tools with a bit of success but have since started having a local brake specialist cut and flare all my lines. I use coat hanger or similar to lay out the lines and get a length and take that and the tube nuts in and have them make up the lines. The line is higher quality and has proven to be more corrosion resistant than what I'd bought through Summit and the flares never leak. Stainless line is also an option if you want something that looks really nice. Just to be clear, this shop isn't one of the $99 four wheel brake places. They do mostly fleet service and do top rate stuff. Any decently large town should have something similar in the area.

Also, working in the OE production world, one of the tricks we use on leaky flare fittings is tighten and loosen the fitting 4-5 times in succession. Many times this will help a flare that's not quite right to get itself sealed up.

Well my lines seem to be holding still, but I was sooooo close to getting the Eastwood kit.

That's good to know. Thanks!

It may seem like semantics, but I hope that is actually Nickle/Copper alloy tubing which is DOT approved. Plain copper tubing would not be a good idea for a brake system.

Actually it is Nickel/Copper. I just call it copper lol.

http://fedhillusa.com/

The flaring tools they sell/rent are top notch and the tubing beats the hell out of automotive store tubing.

I've seen that website before. I probably would have done that originally if I'd known about it at the time.

[Fendamonky]

http://fedhillusa.com/

The flaring tools they sell/rent are top notch and the tubing beats the hell out of automotive store tubing.

Thanks for the link Gunny!! :)

[730RWHP12A]

here are some pics of the ABS delete kit I make, I use automotive bundy tubing that's double flared , with zero flex line.. the kits now come with all steel fittings, no more aluminum. kit includes an adjustable proportioning valve so you can fine tune your brakes as well.
I also have a kit for the 929 master cylinder as well, I will post some pics .
everyone that's installed these kits loves the quality and fitment of the kit :)

why someone would sell a flexline ABS delete kit is beyond me.. what an epic fail in so many ways! brake fluid gets really hot, Teflon line gets soft, and there goes your braking!

[Fendamonky]

Why do you exclude the front brakes from your proportioning valve?

Yeah, the $250 soft line kit is a bit of a laugh... I'm currently up in the air on whether I want to get the Wilwood 2 inlet, 3 outlet, prop valve, or just use the factory one and T the front brake lines.

[GySgtFrank]

Why do you exclude the front brakes from your proportioning valve?

Because you want full pressure to your front brakes. The rears you want to set so they lock slightly after the fronts do. If the rear brakes lock first, the car will want to swap ends on you. This could be considered a bad thing in the middle of a corner.

[730RWHP12A]

Because you want full pressure to your front brakes. The rears you want to set so they lock slightly after the fronts do. If the rear brakes lock first, the car will want to swap ends on you. This could be considered a bad thing in the middle of a corner.

well said! thank you for your accurate input!

[730RWHP12A]

here are some pics with the bigger 929 master cylinder installed..
I always have both kits in stock ready to ship

[730RWHP12A]

current pics (snapped these today) of the kit with all steel fittings.. shipping this one to Chad in Kentucky :)

[C. Ludwig]

Good lookin! ;)

[turboed13b]

Ok, I'm an idiot lol. Last night I had it typed out correctly and then changed it thinking I had it wrong. Turns out I was right the first time. The port directly under the reservoir goes to the rear brakes, and the port at the end of the master cylinder goes to the front brakes. Here are pics of the current setup. I finally got them to stop seeping but I'm still paranoid lol, thus the towels. The whole system is pressurized and the brakes are bled, but I'm paranoid because the engine bay has fresh paint also. The bender tool dinked the lines a little but it made the bends much tighter and cleaner looking. I ran the line for the front brakes between the master cylinder and the reservoir just because it seemed like the most direct route.


For future reference it does not matter where the brake line goes to. Both ports are the same size internally. It's the proportional valves job to create the brake bias.

[speedjunkie]

OK good to know. I wasn't sure, I just hooked it up the same way my buddy did his. Thanks!