Which turbo for 350whp on a 13BT

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Hey guys. I am not dead. I just graduated from law school and hopefully I will now have a life and an income :D Which leads me to my question. I am looking to go to a bigger turbo setup. Looking for 350whp with a relatively broad powerband. The engine is a S4 13BT with a mild streetport. The engine will be used in a street/strip/auto-x/track car so I want to avoid too much lag. I have been debating on running a Holset of some sort but I am reading reviews that say they tend to be an on/off switch in a rotary. What is yall's thoughts?

[FerociousP]

Holy hell! You are alive!

[project86]

Have you checked out the BNRs?

[vex]

You can hit that goal with a lot of different turbos. The real question is what EMS are you going to be running to get the boost when you want it/tuning for the air that's being delivered.

[RETed]

Boost pressures?
What kind of fuel?
IC set-up?
Water injection?
Engine mods?

For quick spool, hard to wrong with a GT35R.
It's been proven.


-Ted

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I currently have a bnr stage 1 but I am wanting to go to an aftermarket manifold and turbo setup. I have a microtech standalone. Currently running stock injectors and low boost with stock top mount and water/meth injection. I will end up going front mount, bigger injectors, maybe go e85. I have considered gt35r but wondered if there are less conventional and possibly less expensive. Engine is a sracing beat template mild streetport with stock s4 tii rotors and 3rd gen corner seals. Ra classic apex seals.

[TitaniumTT]

GT32 with a small hotside. Tubular manifold with largish twin wastegates. Smaller turbo with a smaller hotside will bring boost on sooner. Largish twin WG's will let the engine breath. Log EMAP when you do this.

GT35R is good for the 450+ crowd, hell even a 32 could break the 4's. All this is complicated and expensive, however, it'll be the best. If you're looking to take the simplistic or cheaper approach, it's been said, can't go wrong with the BNR hybrids.

More important questions are being asked rather than answered though... fuel, intercooler, EMS etc etc etc?

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Ems - microtech lt10s already installed
Fuel and injector - will be selected once turbo and hp goal is set lol

On the bnr I am just not a huge fan of clipped turbines. Flows better up top but I miss the instant response of the stock turbo.

[cturbo28]

GTX30R or Precision equivalent will do just fine running 16psi for 350rwhp. The new billet wheels will get it done that is assuming you have everything else in the equation to make it happen.

[TitaniumTT]

Ems - microtech lt10s already installed
Fuel and injector - will be selected once turbo and hp goal is set lol

On the bnr I am just not a huge fan of clipped turbines. Flows better up top but I miss the instant response of the stock turbo.

In that case, yeah, you're pretty much wanting to go with the tubular mani and some good well placed wastegates. Response over power.... what a novel idea ;)

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Yeah I had not thought of the twin wastegate idea before. The chassis this will be going in is very lightweight so no need for big numbers.

[RETed]

Twins would give you the ultimate set-up, but getting the sizing right + increased cost / labor due to all the custom work might not be possible for you?
If you do have the resources to go individual twins, I wholeheartedly agree with that choice...

But since the title says just "turbo"... :D

My philosophy with turbo sizing is to always run as big of a turbo you can afford which will spool decently and keep the boost down.
You can run smaller turbos for better spool, but you end up jacking the boost up to compensate.
I'd rather keep the boost lower and run the larger sized turbo and just size down the turbine A/R if really needed.
For single turbo set-up's, I will not go anything smaller than a GT3582,

I set up a recent customer with an HKS cast collected turbo exhaust manifold, 60-1 / O-trim / 0.96 A/R turbine, Tial 44mm wastegate that had full spool by 3,800RPM.
Not the most responsive, but it does give us a baseline.
Yeah, the O-trim is considered small, but we were pleasantly surprised it ran a flat torque line all the way to 7kRPM at 12psi.
The numbers were 280 @ 12psi, 300 @ 15psi, 320 @ 18psi on a Dynapack, so this turbo will hit a true 350 @ the wheels at the edge of pump gas on a DynoJet.
Now, let's look into the spool portion of this set-up...
The HKS cast, collected turbo exhaust manifold is probably the worst flowing out of all the options out there.
Almost any tube turbo exhaust manifold will flow better, which means better spool.
Going with a more efficient flowing tube turbo exhaust manifold should drop the full boost spool down to 3,500RPM (or lower) easily.
Going with a full, divided set-up - i.e. keep front rotor versus rear rotor exhaust pulses separated through all the way to the turbine housing (divided turbine housing, twin wastegates, etc.) - and you're looking at low 3,000RPM...3,300RPM...3,200RPM full spool.
Add a BB CHRA, and you're looking at 3,000RPM full spool - i.e. GT3582R should be full spooling right at 3,000RPM if your system is efficient.
Drop the turbine A/R can possibly net you full spool in the 2,700RPM...2,800RPM range, but you might take the hit on losing some top end due to choking the exhaust down.

Compressor options?
I can only give you opinions on Garrett models, since I'm most familiar with them.
60-1 is popular, and efficiency plateau centers around 0.7 ratio or about 10psi.
T04E "60 trim" is another option that compares very similarly to the above 60-1 but runs more efficient at higher pressures - efficiency plateau centers around 15psi.
GT-series is the evolution into the most current Garrett technology in terms of compressor (wheel) design.
GT3582 compressor wheel can support your power goals; you can go with a GT40 series compressor wheel and step up in size.
Problem is with GT-series BB CHRA's is the price!

I know the Borg Warner turbos have been getting popular and are economical, but I can't comment on their abilities cause I have zero experience with them.


-Ted

[85rx-7gsl-se]

That is some really good info there Ted. I really appreciate your input.

[djmtsu]

Nate is back. Holy crap.

[vex]

Twins would give you the ultimate set-up, but getting the sizing right + increased cost / labor due to all the custom work might not be possible for you?
If you do have the resources to go individual twins, I wholeheartedly agree with that choice...

But since the title says just "turbo"... :D

My philosophy with turbo sizing is to always run as big of a turbo you can afford which will spool decently and keep the boost down.
You can run smaller turbos for better spool, but you end up jacking the boost up to compensate.
I'd rather keep the boost lower and run the larger sized turbo and just size down the turbine A/R if really needed.
For single turbo set-up's, I will not go anything smaller than a GT3582,

I set up a recent customer with an HKS cast collected turbo exhaust manifold, 60-1 / O-trim / 0.96 A/R turbine, Tial 44mm wastegate that had full spool by 3,800RPM.
Not the most responsive, but it does give us a baseline.
Yeah, the O-trim is considered small, but we were pleasantly surprised it ran a flat torque line all the way to 7kRPM at 12psi.
The numbers were 280 @ 12psi, 300 @ 15psi, 320 @ 18psi on a Dynapack, so this turbo will hit a true 350 @ the wheels at the edge of pump gas on a DynoJet.
Now, let's look into the spool portion of this set-up...
The HKS cast, collected turbo exhaust manifold is probably the worst flowing out of all the options out there.
Almost any tube turbo exhaust manifold will flow better, which means better spool.
Going with a more efficient flowing tube turbo exhaust manifold should drop the full boost spool down to 3,500RPM (or lower) easily.
Going with a full, divided set-up - i.e. keep front rotor versus rear rotor exhaust pulses separated through all the way to the turbine housing (divided turbine housing, twin wastegates, etc.) - and you're looking at low 3,000RPM...3,300RPM...3,200RPM full spool.

Having a manifold as described above I can tell you that I hit positive pressure as low as 2,500 RPM and can achieve my full boost pressure around 3,000 RPM (and this was on a horrible crappy tune). The only thing I would have done differently had I known about it would have been to re-orient the wastegate feed to be better flowing rather than what it currently is.

Add a BB CHRA, and you're looking at 3,000RPM full spool - i.e. GT3582R should be full spooling right at 3,000RPM if your system is efficient.
Drop the turbine A/R can possibly net you full spool in the 2,700RPM...2,800RPM range, but you might take the hit on losing some top end due to choking the exhaust down.I'm close to this--but I think it might just have been the tune itself causing the issues. My turbo is a Turbonetics inc T60-1 with ceramic ball bearings.

Compressor options?
I can only give you opinions on Garrett models, since I'm most familiar with them.
60-1 is popular, and efficiency plateau centers around 0.7 ratio or about 10psi.
T04E "60 trim" is another option that compares very similarly to the above 60-1 but runs more efficient at higher pressures - efficiency plateau centers around 15psi.
GT-series is the evolution into the most current Garrett technology in terms of compressor (wheel) design.
GT3582 compressor wheel can support your power goals; you can go with a GT40 series compressor wheel and step up in size.
Problem is with GT-series BB CHRA's is the price!

I know the Borg Warner turbos have been getting popular and are economical, but I can't comment on their abilities cause I have zero experience with them.


-Ted

[classicauto]

T04E-57 trim. Old school 350rwhp. With a good manifold/wastegate and some sewer pipe exhaust you should have full boost by the 3500 range easily.

[RETed]

Having a manifold as described above I can tell you that I hit positive pressure as low as 2,500 RPM and can achieve my full boost pressure around 3,000 RPM (and this was on a horrible crappy tune).

"Hit positive boost" doesn't mean anything...
Garrett GT-series BB CHRA equipped turbos can regularly hit a couple psi of boost right off idle.
I posted full boost RPM's as a more relevant stat.

I believe the 60-1, O-trim was into positive boost at around 2,500RPM also...
I'll go double-check the dyno graphs (the Dynapack was also logging MAP during all runs) for confirmation.


-Ted

[vex]

"Hit positive boost" doesn't mean anything...I was just giving my personal experience on your posted numbers. Nothing more nothing less.

Garrett GT-series BB CHRA equipped turbos can regularly hit a couple psi of boost right off idle.
I posted full boost RPM's as a more relevant stat.

I believe the 60-1, O-trim was into positive boost at around 2,500RPM also...
I'll go double-check the dyno graphs (the Dynapack was also logging MAP during all runs) for confirmation.


-Ted

Can't get you any of those numbers as I haven't had an opprotunity to get onto a dyno yet. I imagine however that they will match your previously posted numbers without issue.

[Monkman33]

If you want spool, go with the smallest turbo that will make the power you want without being too inefficient.

Going bigger than you need only moves your powerband further up the rpm range. Nothing more.

[RETed]

If you want spool, go with the smallest turbo that will make the power you want without being too inefficient.

Going bigger than you need only moves your powerband further up the rpm range. Nothing more.

Not necessarily...


Another tip...
Your wastegate (actuator) vacuum source location can also influence boost.
Closer to the turbo (compressor) = faster reaction of wastegate = slower boost
Farther away from turbo (compresser) / closer to engine = slower reaction of wastegate = faster boost
Boost builds from the turbo (compressor) then into hot-side IC pipes then intercooler then cold-side IC pipes then throttle body / intake manifold...
The later you open the wastegate, the faster boost will build in the turbo.


-Ted

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Thoughts on incorporating a Sound Performance Quick Spool valve?