87 GXL wont start

[Kevyn]

Hi I have a 87 gxl that I bought from a kid that had it sitting for 7 YEARS.
i changed the oil, did a whole tuneup and put a new fuel pump and tank in(the old tank was rusted because the kid left the gas cap off whille it was sitting, water got in the , ect.)
So after alot of work i got it to turn on for 10-15 seconds but as soon as i touched the accelerator it died and now I cant get it to turn back on.
I think it keeps flooding because i always have to pull the spark plugs out to clean them.
it builds up good oil preassure when i am cranking continously
i am getting spark but it feels weak (i got shocked by putting my hand on there and it really wasnt anything haha)
Ive tested the restance on the coils: .8 ohms
also I think a pretty decent sized exhaust leak.
Any help is appreciated, thanks

[tweiss3]

take some ATX fluid and put it on all 3 faces of both rotors and let it sit. Sounds like bad compression, this should help to boost that compression and help loosen the seals at the same time.

[Kevyn]

how would i get it on all three faces?

nvm that was a dumb question.
So I just let it sit for a couple days? hours?
also how much atx fluid?

[tweiss3]

not a ton, but enough to wet the apex seals. And letting it sit for 30 minutes or so should allow it to free some things up.

[vex]

Hi I have a 87 gxl that I bought from a kid that had it sitting for 7 YEARS.
i changed the oil, did a whole tuneup and put a new fuel pump and tank in(the old tank was rusted because the kid left the gas cap off whille it was sitting, water got in the , ect.)
So after alot of work i got it to turn on for 10-15 seconds but as soon as i touched the accelerator it died and now I cant get it to turn back on.
I think it keeps flooding because i always have to pull the spark plugs out to clean them.
I have good compression
it builds up good oil preassure when i am cranking continously
i am getting spark but it feels weak (i got shocked by putting my hand on there and it really wasnt anything haha)
Ive tested the restance on the coils: .8 ohms
also I think a pretty decent sized exhaust leak.
Any help is appreciated, thanks

take some ATX fluid and put it on all 3 faces of both rotors and let it sit. Sounds like bad compression, this should help to boost that compression and help loosen the seals at the same time.

how would i get it on all three faces?

nvm that was a dumb question.
So I just let it sit for a couple days? hours?
also how much atx fluid?

Do you have any compression numbers or is it just assumed. You can have a lot of different issues. Anything and everything from a vacuum leak to poor compression, or a leaking/clogged injectors. When you did your tune up did you happen to swap out the fuel filter? If you didn't, I would hazard a guess that you have clogged fuel injectors.

[Kevyn]

a friend of mine told me to change the fuel filter AFTER i got it to run once.
I guess that was a mistake.

[vex]

Truth of the matter is if the car has been sitting for 7 years it's going to need a lot of work. I would suggest pulling the injectors, sending them out to be cleaned and flow tested. I would then pull all the filters (that includes the fuel and oil--unless you recently did them). Replace plugs, test coils as per FSM (Factory Service Manual) instruction, and test plug wires to ensure they're still good. Additionally I would double check fuel pressure and inspect the Fuel Pressure Damper (FPD).

I would also look at getting compression numbers from the rotors so you know what you have.

[Pete_89T2]

^ Agree with Vex on all of the above. In addition, I recommend flushing the cooling system and putting in fresh coolant. Also, since many of the rubber hoses and belts are likely dry rotting, you'll probably want to replace those as well.

[Kevyn]

Truth of the matter is if the car has been sitting for 7 years it's going to need a lot of work. I would suggest pulling the injectors, sending them out to be cleaned and flow tested. I would then pull all the filters (that includes the fuel and oil--unless you recently did them). Replace plugs, test coils as per FSM (Factory Service Manual) instruction, and test plug wires to ensure they're still good. Additionally I would double check fuel pressure and inspect the Fuel Pressure Damper (FPD).

I would also look at getting compression numbers from the rotors so you know what you have.

ive replaced all filters, plugs, wires. I m the process of flushing the coolant, replacing all other fluid, and getting new hoses and belts. I guess in the mean time i should check compression.

[Kevyn]

also would it be a good idea to just buy some used injectors from somebody instead of getting mine cleaned, flow tested, ect?

[Pete_89T2]

also would it be a good idea to just buy some used injectors from somebody instead of getting mine cleaned, flow tested, ect?

Nope, it only costs about $20~$25 per injector to get them cleaned & flow tested. A reputable shop will provide documentation of before/after results, and will also replace the replacable wear & tear parts (i.e., pintle caps, O-rings, grommets, etc.) for that price. Which makes them as good as new. With used injectors, you're basically replacing your old injectors with another set of injectors of unknown health.

[vex]

ive replaced all filters, plugs, wires. I m the process of flushing the coolant, replacing all other fluid, and getting new hoses and belts. I guess in the mean time i should check compression.

Because you replace wires does not guarantee that they are without defect. You'll need to check the Resistance of each line to ensure that there is no break in the wire or tear in the insulation. Once that's done you'll need to verify the coils are functioning properly and delivering the proper voltage to the plugs as per FSM instructions.

Compression numbers are good to have, but require good battery voltage and cranking RPM. It's good to know that all 3-faces are holding compression as well as the total amount of compression they can provide. Or if you have the money you can purchase a rotary compression tester from one of the vendors on this site which will provide a much better analysis of the condition of the engine. I plan on purchasing one in the future, as I'm poor right now.

[Pete_89T2]

Lacking a compression tester (rotary specific or otherwise), you can do a quick "poor man's compression test" to get a quick thumbs up/down assessment of your rotary engine's compression. Here's the gist of it:

1. Remove the EGI fuse, and disconnect the CAS (Crank Angle Sensor) - this kills spark & fuel, preventing the car from firing while testing. The EGI fuse is located in the fuse box under the hood, driver's side strut tower.

2. Make sure your battery is fully charged, and/or have another car handy to hook jumper cables to your battery. You'll be cranking your engine repeatedly and won't want to drain your battery down.

3. Remove the trailing (top) spark plug from one of the rotors, doesn't matter which one you do choose to do first.

4. Get yourself in earshot of the spark plug hole - don't need to be TOO close, leaning over the fender will work, and have an assistant floor the throttle open while cranking the engine.

5. While it's cranking, listen to the sounds made -- you should hear a consistently strong & rythmic POP--POP--POP sound coming from the open spark plug hole, meaning you've got compression on all 3 faces of that rotor. If the loudness of the POPs are weak, or more importantly, if the rythm is broken up, i.e., POP--POP--(silence)--POP, then you've got internal problems with that rotor that most likely will require a tear down/rebuild.

6. Repeat steps #3-5 for the remaining rotor, after replacing the spark plug in the one you just did.

[FRED]

You don't need to disconnect the CAS. The coils are fed power by the EGI INJ fuse, so they (coils and injectors) can't fire if you pull that fuse. IF you pull the EGI COMP instead....same deal, the computer controls firing of the coils so they can't fire if that fuse is pulled. Either of the EGI fuses kills fuel and coils firing.

[Pete_89T2]

You don't need to disconnect the CAS. The coils are fed power by the EGI INJ fuse, so they (coils and injectors) can't fire if you pull that fuse. IF you pull the EGI COMP instead....same deal, the computer controls firing of the coils so they can't fire if that fuse is pulled. Either of the EGI fuses kills fuel and coils firing.

Fred - Good point, pulling the EGI fuse does in fact kill both fuel & spark, so there is no need to disconnect the CAS that I can see. Oddly enough, the compression test procedure in my '89 FSM(ref. page C-7) states to disconnect the CAS, but it is completely silent with regards to pulling the EGI fuse - go figure!

[Kevyn]

well what I did was a poor mans compression test
the first time I did it was right after i bought it and it sounded like one of the seals was weak I guess.
I did it recently after it had cranked and built up oil preassure with fresh oil and it sounded 100% even. From what I understand rotary engine need oil to build up compression so Im guessing it was just so dry it couldnt get any compression. please correct me if im wrong, Im just here to learn.

[vex]

well what I did was a poor mans compression test
the first time I did it was right after i bought it and it sounded like one of the seals was weak I guess.
I did it recently after it had cranked and built up oil preassure with fresh oil and it sounded 100% even. From what I understand rotary engine need oil to build up compression so Im guessing it was just so dry it couldnt get any compression. please correct me if im wrong, Im just here to learn.

The most honest answer is: Sort of...

The engine itself should be able to maintain pressure without the aid of oil. However oil itself is used to lubricate while also resisting mechanical shear stress along the hard seals. In other words a majority of your compression is going to come from the hard seals themselves and the cranking speed at which they turn (IE good battery voltage, and starter motor). The oil, while lubricating the hard seals, also resists shear from the mechanical compression; meaning that the oil is used to help retain the compression of the chamber while not being the primary means of doing so.

Think of it this way: You could have perfect seals that are self lubricating and microscopically uniform; you wouldn't need oil. However in reality you're going to get deviations in the seals, surface, etc, etc, etc which need to be filled in order to retain the maximum amount of pressure within the chamber. That fluid is the oil. Since different viscosities are present depending on the oil, you get different effects from the mechanical shear. Highly viscous oils will impart higher friction (or resistance to movement; in fact viscosity is the internal resistance to movement of a liquid), however this also means that the pressure is better retained as the shear movement of the surfaces do not cause the oil to separate (per-se). A low viscous oil will reduce friction but by the same token not withstand pressure as well.

The oil you use in an engine will largely dictate the ability of the hard seals to retain the pressure. I hope that was easy to follow.

[Kevyn]

Oh ok. So does that mean that for the purposes of starting the car for the first time it would be smart to use 20-50 oil or is 10-40 good enough?

[vex]

It depends more on temperature.

I personally use a 20-50 except during the winter--when I don't drive at all.