Water to air intercoolers.

[Mazdabater]

What do u guys think of these, I'm currently running a chinese front mount on the FC at the moment but a guy on ausrotary is selling a PWR water - air 8 X 10 barrell intercooler, pump and rad for $600au. I saw just the barrell on another site for 1500. He said he was recording air temps 7deg above ambient.

Whats the downside to these?

[RICE RACING]

What do u guys think of these, I'm currently running a chinese front mount on the FC at the moment but a guy on ausrotary is selling a PWR water - air 8 X 10 barrell intercooler, pump and rad for $600au. I saw just the barrell on another site for 1500. He said he was recording air temps 7deg above ambient.

Whats the downside to these?

Downside? they are fucked!

Huge pressure drops across it, shit load of plumbing, still need a big radiator out front.

His "claim" is total bullshit ! Ask him to provide a data log of the Air temp at 8000rpm in 4th gear at 220kph or so, after 10 or more seconds of full throttle on a 20 deg Day. I guarantee you it will be 50 deg C or more.

Keep your IC you have now and water inject it, I just sold two kits to customers in Towomba (last week), one Rotary dude and another bloke with a 930 Turbo Porsche :) This is the only way to get your charge air temp down and keep the engine alive.

[Mazdabater]

Well a pressure drop would be expected. No pressure drop simply means the air is moving through the IC too fast to cool quickly. WI costs more then $600 though lol.

[RICE RACING]

Well a pressure drop would be expected. No pressure drop simply means the air is moving through the IC too fast to cool quickly. WI costs more then $600 though lol.

We bought about half a dozen of these barrel cores in 2004/5, no one had a Don Mega result with them. A mate of mine runs one in his Time Attack RX7 and I can tell you for fact that there is NO WAY it gets anywhere near the charge temp that turd muncher is claiming :) its very close to what I typed before.

The big problem with these things is once you have got over the heat sink ability of the water you are back at square one and need to cool the poofter.

A little historical context is needed here. Renault F1 used to use water to air combined with air to air cores in like 1982, right after that they fucked them off for air to air units and water injection ;) the only place a water to air is good is a super low duty event like a drug race, where you can fill it with dry ice or some other gay shit and get a benefit for 10 seconds, just before the motor lets go PAC style :smilielol5:

[Mazdabater]

Doing a little more research. Seems the veyron runs a water to air intercooler. And would set up an icebox in the reservoir for runs down the strip etc. I think I'm liking the look of it as I can ditch all the AC piping and set up a proper CAI as well.

[RICE RACING]

Doing a little more research. Seems the veyron runs a water to air intercooler. And would set up an icebox in the reservoir for runs down the strip etc. I think I'm liking the look of it as I can ditch all the AC piping and set up a proper CAI as well.

Every front running ST289 rotary I have worked with has ditched the water to air set up. Most run a simple air to air as its lighter and faster.

Trust me ice water and IC is a nightmare, and dry ice is an even bigger head fuck, not to mention untunable as well.

drop every 10 deg C = 2% more power or there abouts.
It is far easier to drop charge temp with WM50/50 then any horse cock cooler set up, and its far superior inside your engine too ;) Quite a few are running water on methanol with big FMIC ;) its the top set up :)

[Mazdabater]

Sorry to be a noob but whats a st289? air - air is faster? I was liking the look of the short IC piping. It seemed like a good idea for street driving as well.What about a water - air cooler with WI lol.

[RICE RACING]

Sorry to be a noob but whats a st289? air - air is faster? I was liking the look of the short IC piping. It seemed like a good idea for street driving as well.What about a water - air cooler with WI lol.

28x9" slick 1000+bhp rotaries

Air to Air is simpler, lighter, faster. If you want to reduce the charge temp then water/methanol at 50/50 ratio is the ultimate way, you can save wasting fuel to cool combustion down and you can make much much more power with less peak pressure stress on your engine, nothing can beat it.

W to A is just homo......

[Mazdabater]

Yeah I get that. However the cops seem to frown upon FMIC's, so a water - air could get me out of trouble there. Theres no race tracks up here all the car would really get used for is the strip, or if I join the car club up here (which i plan to) the occasional hill climb in which the ice water could be a benefit. I don't really boost around town street driving and it would remove the I/C out of the way of my radiator. For the price I think it's almost worth doing over my air - air setup. The piping of it really shits me. If it's insufficient then I could still run WI with it. Been doing some research online and it seems like it could suit my needs, I mean it can't be all bad if the veyron runs one. I'll do a bit more research tonight me thinks.

[RICE RACING]

Try it out let us know how you go, remember if you want to save your engine though internal water injection is the only way http://machinedesign.com/article/unlimited-air-racers-the-ultimate-hot-rods-1103

Very mis understood science to car people, second nature though to engineers and plane people ;)

[Mazdabater]

Yeah I am aware. I don't think I'll be running the engine that hard this time round though. Looking at making decent power on relatively low boost.

p.s when you say plane people I have a cert 4 as an aircraft structual fitter and only a few modules left on my cert 4 aircraft maintenance engineer =D

I tell you what if it doesn't work I'll grab a WI kit off you

[RICE RACING]

Yeah I am aware. I don't think I'll be running the engine that hard this time round though. Looking at making decent power on relatively low boost.

p.s when you say plane people I have a cert 4 as an aircraft structual fitter and only a few modules left on my cert 4 aircraft maintenance engineer =D

I tell you what if it doesn't work I'll grab a WI kit off you

You know you love it :) 500mph water injected

http://dailyator.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/504d4_HintonStrega_RyanCoulter-660x440.jpg

[Mazdabater]

Yeah, shame theres no WI on the gas turbine engines or I could swipe one from work LOL.

Also slightly turned off by the W/A setups now as a bit of a search on the rx7club shows that BDC likes them.

[RICE RACING]

:rofl:

[TitaniumTT]

I was going to try a W2A IFF my HMIC wasn't getting the job done. My intercooler setup get's it done. I see close to ambient temps cruising around town and even when flogging the thing at the track, they rarely get high enough to warrant anything else.

We bought about half a dozen of these barrel cores in 2004/5, no one had a Don Mega result with them. A mate of mine runs one in his Time Attack RX7 and I can tell you for fact that there is NO WAY it gets anywhere near the charge temp that turd muncher is claiming :) its very close to what I typed before.

The big problem with these things is once you have got over the heat sink ability of the water you are back at square one and need to cool the poofter.

A little historical context is needed here. Renault F1 used to use water to air combined with air to air cores in like 1982, right after that they fucked them off for air to air units and water injection ;) the only place a water to air is good is a super low duty event like a drug race, where you can fill it with dry ice or some other gay shit and get a benefit for 10 seconds, just before the motor lets go PAC style :smilielol5:

So true about 2 things, w2a being good for very short drag race running. After that though, the water get's hot and there's nothing that can really be done about it.

The other thing that's oh so true, PWR sucks my sack. Good intercooler, but their customer service is fucking horrible. I ordered A "custom" intercooler from them, pais $100 in shipping to get it to me on time. THey fucked up the outlets. When I called them on it they got all pissed, I spoke with the owner who got pissed, not at his croanies for not being able to follow simple directions, but at me! Then they wouldn't reimburse me for shipping to send the thing back, and charged me shipping to ship the proper pne to me, they didn't listen and they painted thier logo on the core like I had specifically asked them NOT to. All in all I paid >$200 in shipping for a $400 intercooler. Fuck PWR.

Yeah, shame theres no WI on the gas turbine engines or I could swipe one from work LOL.

Also slightly turned off by the W/A setups now as a bit of a search on the rx7club shows that BDC likes them.

:rofl:

:smilielol5:

[RotorDad]

My friends & I have run water to air set ups packed with ice in a number of drag cars here with success, they did their job. All of the street driven cars in our group use Air to Air coolers, unless the vehicle is supercharged & requires the need of a Water to Air. I wouldn't say that air to air coolers are best option in all situations, but in a street driven or anything other then drag racing they would be the better choice. Now I don't know what Rice was talking about when saying a shit load of plumbing & huge pressure drops. Most of the water to air systems I have seen have far fewer bends & piping. Two things to think about when looking at charge coolers, Heat transfer & Friction loss. The more piping & bends in the system can cause large pressure drop. Air to air systems are simple & effective, but packaging & routing can be an issue. Water to air systems have their place in motorsports, there is added componets, but they do not need to be in the engine compartment. Here is something I read a long time ago " Think about a hot frying pan. If you want it to cool quickly, do you dunk it in water or do you wave it around in the air? Which method cools faster?…" The idea would be to find the charge cooler system that best fits what you plan on doing with the car. On the idea of keeping the air to air & adding water/meth injection. Okay I will say that chemical cooling is a great idea, but it does take your simple FMIC system & make it more complex. So with guys like BDC out there relying on such systems without someone knowing what they are doing can prove to be a bad idea.

[RICE RACING]

Here is an idea:

When you heat water, think Ocean or cup of coffee....... how long does to take to cool down? *a very LONG TIME!* that is cause it has a very high specific heat capacity. Like George Michael and Elton John, it goes both ways.

Once you get to it you are fucked.

Water is awesome as a total loss coolant, its far better using it in the engine rather than around it ;) You only need to use small amounts and you can totally change the pressure profile in the engine (run engine at 100% more power, while still not exceeding the peak pressure and temperature you had at far lower power). It is far more beneficial to use total loss cooling system and you need non of the complexity of needing to cool the water back down :) (this is what I meant by extra plumbing and radiators etc etc).

[Mazdabater]

Yeah I sort of get what your saying there but wouldn't a well ducted rad make it at least as efficient as a front mount?

[RETed]

I'm going to be moving this soon to Rotary Tech cause there's a lot of good info that can help outside of the FC folks...


-Ted

[Mazdabater]

Yeah I wasn't quite sure where to put it. I sent my mate whos building me engine a text to see what he though he asked me what hp it was and never replied. =/ The things rated at 1250hp+ so I think its more then sufficient. All I'm really concerned about is mounting the radiator for it, I'm thinking properly ducted it should work better then air - air, with the capability to put ice in it for hill climbs, bitumen sprints, drag work, burnouts etc. Could be a good feature there. Just mount an esky in the boot with hoses going to it, put a few beers in there and gain more power!


Oh shit, just told him I'd buy it.

[TitaniumTT]

1250bhp huh? I'm sure it'll keep a 600bhp rotary's AIT's at ambient air temps forever then.... right? :rolleyes: I still wouldn't do it unless you're only doing drag races short duration events.

I'm going to be moving this soon to Rotary Tech cause there's a lot of good info that can help outside of the FC folks...


-Ted

Good idea, I like it.:icon_tup:

[Mazdabater]

I'm more buying it now out of curiosity, for the price I can just flog it off and put the front mount back in if it sucks

[RETed]

Thread moved to Rotary Tech from 2nd gen section...
Enjoy!


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

I'm more buying it now out of curiosity, for the price I can just flog it off and put the front mount back in if it sucks

Make sure you do lots and lots and then some more actuall testing :icon_tup:

[Mazdabater]

Actual testing, my resources are rather limiting as all I have is a ln air temp sensor, egt gauge and butt dyno lol

[TitaniumTT]

Charge temp, AIT, aux coolant temp, etc etc would be nice to know. See how long it takes to heatsoak and not cool back down

[Mazdabater]

Yeah I got water temps. I live in north qld so I should be able to work out if it's good or not pretty quick. Mind u still gotta get the engine rebuilt and put back in the car lol

[Mazdabater]

It got here yesterday, things huge. Shoulda realised 8 X 10" wasn't going to be small lol. Radiators bigger then it looked in the pic too which isn't a bad thing, pumps in good nick and it came with the water lines. Paid 660 shipped so I think I got a pretty good deal. Going to start mounting the rad and pump this weekend, will put some pics up then. Going to be a little bit before the cars running but I've realised theres alot of shit left to do.

[RICE RACING]

Good luck sounds like a fitting nightmare :18:

I have an article of a RX7 fitted with one of these (Drug car) and the **** sticks out of the bonnet :p

Still be interested to see how it turns out fitment wise. If I get some time I will scan this article on the RX7 and post it up for you to look at.

[Mazdabater]

Yeah, he had it fitting in his FD fine. Assuming there is the same amount of space between the engine and rad in my FC I should be fine. Planning on mounting the rad, making the CAI and ducting the brakes at the same time. Should be fun lol

[RICE RACING]

Yeah, he had it fitting in his FD fine. Assuming there is the same amount of space between the engine and rad in my FC I should be fine. Planning on mounting the rad, making the CAI and ducting the brakes at the same time. Should be fun lol

One one tuning trip to Brisbane I did a comp test on a Mazfux car (Green FD) and it was a bridge piss port with a water to air barrel fitted in there, I remember it was a total **** as I had to pull apart half the car to get the spark plugs (hence my loathing of those coolers lol).

It had no comp on the rear rotor btw, he took it back to mazfux under warranty, they managed to fuck it with a run in tune and banana seals lol.....

made dick all power with the barrel, he was circuit racing it n shit, it was a pretty gay set up all in all.

[Mazdabater]

Lol, for the price I got it for I'm sure I can sell it and break even. I'm running a 200 dollar chinese front mount at the moment. I'll upload the pic of how it was installed in this FD. Mine should run pretty similar although he gave me some of the brackets and they are shithouse. (Could just be me being fussy because I make aircraft brackets for a living)

[Mazdabater]

The piping on the outlet side of it is 3.5" to give you a size reference

http://www.lightningrotors.co.nz/ignition/CRW_7470.jpg

[RICE RACING]

I worked on that car at Superlap!

He did 344rwkw (dynapack) on 19psi boost with a 1.30 A/R on center T04Z, mild port.

His name is Shane, not a bad bloke for a Sheep Rooter **** from NZ :) *he is a mate of mine!*

[Mazdabater]

Ah right so it can't be that bad then lol. Went and measured my s4 just then as that pic scared me because the rad seems closer to the front in an FD, gonna be a pretty tight squeeze but I should get it. I'm running a proboost t04z with an extend port so hoping for a bit over 300rwkw lets hope I get there.

[RICE RACING]

Ah right so it can't be that bad then lol. Went and measured my s4 just then as that pic scared me because the rad seems closer to the front in an FD, gonna be a pretty tight squeeze but I should get it. I'm running a proboost t04z with an extend port so hoping for a bit over 300rwkw lets hope I get there.


You will do that too easily! I would tell you what I make but I have far too many internet stalkers who hang on my every bit of data and idea's lest we say I make a great deal MORE than what your goal is :) and all on a stock std SP intercooler :)

I did a comparison to the Mazda Capella I helped a mate develop (600rwhp car ~450rwkw) and from 110kph to 150kph (5800rpm to 8000rpm), peak power band for his car (no wheel spin in 3rd either) my RICESP basically matches it (using exactly the same rpm and gearing!).......

I run a charge temperature of ~40deg C on (moderate boost lol) :rofl: see my boost thread (though I managed to equal the Capella 3rd gear accel using much lower boost!) the key thing I will tell you again is the chamber pressure profile under high power levels is your killer.

IF though you are only aiming for ~300rwkw range as measured on a dynohomodynamics used in 3R shitout mode. Then you can achieve this very very easily with the right tuning ;) its only when you step it up to BIG supercar levels of power while retaining engine durability that it gets a bit tricky .................. and there are FUCK ALL people on the planet who know how to make road going rotaries live at this level on proper petrol (or even poofter MAD MAX "carry it in drums" sprog juice.

[Mazdabater]

Yeah, would like a little more but it's a street car that I want to have a bit of fun in occasionally. I'm aiming for more power at less boost. Going to the next level is always a possibility with me, as when I brought the car I wanted a standard one with an exhaust for a bit of fun.Probably going to think about WI as well if this doesn't do it for me, not so much for power but reliability. Not so much worried about the power level, but actual performance would love to be able to get the car into the 11's down at the strip and have it responsive enough to start doing the hill climbs here. Basically want something I can thrash the piss out of and know it's not going to be stressing it too much, don't mind spending a bit more cash to make it more reliable.


Currently thinking about getting one of these too, but figure I should get the car running before I spend any more money on it.

http://www.xcessivemanufacturing.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=17&step=4

[RICE RACING]

Yeah, would like a little more but it's a street car that I want to have a bit of fun in occasionally. I'm aiming for more power at less boost. Going to the next level is always a possibility with me, as when I brought the car I wanted a standard one with an exhaust for a bit of fun.Probably going to think about WI as well if this doesn't do it for me, not so much for power but reliability. Not so much worried about the power level, but actual performance would love to be able to get the car into the 11's down at the strip and have it responsive enough to start doing the hill climbs here. Basically want something I can thrash the piss out of and know it's not going to be stressing it too much, don't mind spending a bit more cash to make it more reliable.


Currently thinking about getting one of these too, but figure I should get the car running before I spend any more money on it.

http://www.xcessivemanufacturing.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=17&step=4

Yeah I hear you :bigear:

Anything much over 300rwkw as measured on the homo standard and its really a time bomb without WI (regardless of charge temperature) you can measure the seals bending in seconds and minutes rather than hours and 10's of thousands of km's :lol: especially if you have no idea how to cool the engine internally to make the apex seals live.

It will be interesting to see how you get alone, remember your aircraft roots :icon_tup:

If you need some help just ask :sifone:

[Mazdabater]

Yeah well I brought the EGT's to make sure I got an idea of when shits going bad so it doesn't blow up lol. In saying that I have no idea what safe EGT's are, I heard lots of tuners tune differently. Not sure what I'm going to do about tuning it now, mate thats helping me build the engine now works at mazfix so I may get him to tune it there. I know he has a pretty good idea, not a fan of anywhere else in QLD lol. No muppet in townsville is ever tuning it again

[RICE RACING]

Well I retract my offer of help now LOL !!! :rofl:

[Mazdabater]

Wait are you in QLD? I thought you were down south?

[RICE RACING]

Wait are you in QLD? I thought you were down south?

I am in Victoria, but I go all over Australia and the world to tune cars, I came back from UAE over Christmas tuning and am off the Perth soon again......

QLD have not been there is a while, but a friend who owns a shop there is organizing a batch of cars for me to tune again apparently.

[redbullstx]

(edited)

As far as water to air intercoolers go i have one on my drag/streetcar and it works better than i could have ever expected. With back to back 3rd gear pulls on the street my AIT never got over 110 degrees. The motor would get up to 200 with around 85 degree ambient temperature with AIT's at 110 or less the entire time. I would say thats pretty impressive. My core is 4x4x8 with a 24x12" heat exchanger. I dont know how it would hold up to being run hard for hours at a time but in my experience they work very well. I am seriously considering running one on my FD as well.

(If you have something to say personally to RICE RACING, please do so via PM. Let's keep the threads TECHNICAL, as these are tech sections. Thank you. -RETed)