Widebands

[My5ABaby]

I'm looking into getting a wideband/gauge. The options I've found thus far are:
AEM UEGO - Easy to use but only goes down to 11:1
Innovate LC-1 - Needs calibration often
NGK AFX - No info
PLX - No info
Zeitronix Zt-3 - No info

Any other thoughts? Suggestions?

I found this: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/FM_WB_Shootout.pdf It's a bit outdated though.

[Sharingan 19]

11:1 really isn't that impressive

Seems like interesting info (if somewhat biased). I have the innovative unit and I have I had no problems so far.

[RICE RACING]

The only one worth buying is the Neko AF700

I have it permanent mounted right of the back of my turbo!, not a problem, perfect readings, no BS excuses why it wont work etc etc, ~10,000km strong on the same sensor.

I made www.rhdjapan.com stock this, check them out for pricing etc, it is not cheap, but then again its not a toy or a piece of shit like the rest you short listed. :ugh2:

ALL THE BEST japan tuning GIANTS use Neko Corp AF instruments.

[Force13b]

The swing dial on the out side may say 11 but the screen itself goes down to 10:1

[FerociousP]

I use the Innovate LC-1 with no problems so far. I'm only mildly modified, not doing much logging, and use it as an indicator and a reference for not blowing the motor. If you aren't making big power and on a budget then you can get by with a "toy" O2 sensor that will be more than accurate enough for normal street use.

[rx71king]

i have been using for 3 year no problem and same 02 sensor http://www.fuelairspark.com/Products/details/meter/default.asp and if you want you can run two 02 sensors just incase one goes bad.

[vex]

There's also Prosports wideband.

[the spyder]

LC1 is the standard it seems. However if I bought again, it would be the same Rice suggested.

[RETed]

Will be moving this to Rotary Tech soon...
I believe this is a more appropriate section.
Not quite FC specific... :)


-Ted

[vex]

LC1 is the standard it seems. However if I bought again, it would be the same Rice suggested.

Just so you know Rice only referenced a Sensor (a sensor which costs close to $700.00 when last checked). You would still need a controller.

[RICE RACING]

Just so you know Rice only referenced a Sensor (a sensor which costs close to $700.00 when last checked). You would still need a controller.

A Neko AF700 is a complete unit, controller, display module, and individually chipped lab grade NTK sensor.

You can buy the sensor on its own, but you need to buy the AF700 unit as you cant use the sensor on its own cause it has its own EPROM chip you need to fit into the controller which is the calibration for the sensor (each and every one is tailor made).

Autronic sell a "lab grade" NTK sensor (though not chipped like the Neko) it's just a higher grade than the std L1H1 and is about $700 Au, this is the same as Motec will supply for a PLM if you get the shits with the inaccuracy and random failures of the Bosch LSU types they come with std.

Hope this clears it up?

[chibikougan]

I have used the PLX with no problems. The OLED display and daisy chain option for other gauges such as Oil Pressure, Temp, and Coolant Temp etc. Very neat options anyway.

[RETed]

Move from FC subsection to Rotary Tech subsection...


-Ted

[RXTASY]

I have used a PLX in the same location for the last 20K miles with no problem what so ever.

[vex]

A Neko AF700 is a complete unit, controller, display module, and individually chipped lab grade NTK sensor.

You can buy the sensor on its own, but you need to buy the AF700 unit as you cant use the sensor on its own cause it has its own EPROM chip you need to fit into the controller which is the calibration for the sensor (each and every one is tailor made).

Autronic sell a "lab grade" NTK sensor (though not chipped like the Neko) it's just a higher grade than the std L1H1 and is about $700 Au, this is the same as Motec will supply for a PLM if you get the shits with the inaccuracy and random failures of the Bosch LSU types they come with std.

Hope this clears it up?
It does. I didn't see the controller, display, or anything else listed with it at the site you mentioned. Only sensor. Do you have any of the operating ranges it can sustain? Temperature, fuels, etc, etc.

[My5ABaby]

Does anyone know if all the widebands listed thus far have dual outputs for gauges and aftermarket ECU?

[chibikougan]

PLX has the 0-1 and 0-5 volt outputs.

[My5ABaby]

Sooo.... yes? I know nothing about hooking them up. 0-5 goes to the gauge and 0-1 to the ECU?

[C. Ludwig]

Sooo.... yes? I know nothing about hooking them up. 0-5 goes to the gauge and 0-1 to the ECU?

What ECU?

PFC only uses a 0-1V. Most all others have the ability to use a 0-5V.

[vex]

Most widebands have an output of 0-5v, many have dual outs which can be adjusted any way you see fit. I know that the Innovate LC-1 has a dual out with both programmable to any voltage requirement necessary. For instance; it can output a 0-5v on one line for the gauge and a 0-1v output on the other line for a stock ECU. You could then turn around and have it output 0-5v on both or even a 5-0v on one line and a 0-5v on the other.

[Rotary Evolution]

strange that Techedge isn't listed and is one of the most reliable widebands out there.

my Techedge with it's stock NTK sensor is about 10 years old and has tuned over 100 cars and has about 60k miles on it and still works perfectly. the only issue it has developed is the readout box i use is getting tired from being wrapped up and bent about a million times from tuning trips that the readout flickers sometimes if you bend the wires the wrong way. hooked it up once backwards to the battery, replaced the fuse and no issues.

i only use techedge and innovate widebands.

What ECU?

PFC only uses a 0-1V. Most all others have the ability to use a 0-5V.

the PowerFC uses 0-5v, the only one that i know of that still uses the archaic 0-1v standard is microtech(because it allows them to nickel and dime you on firmware/hardware upgrades).

[RICE RACING]

strange that Techedge isn't listed and is one of the most reliable widebands out there.

my Techedge with it's stock NTK sensor is about 10 years old and has tuned over 100 cars and has about 60k miles on it and still works perfectly. the only issue it has developed is the readout box i use is getting tired from being wrapped up and bent about a million times from tuning trips that the readout flickers sometimes if you bend the wires the wrong way. hooked it up once backwards to the battery, replaced the fuse and no issues.

i only use techedge and innovate widebands.



the PowerFC uses 0-5v, the only one that i know of that still uses the archaic 0-1v standard is microtech(because it allows them to nickel and dime you on firmware/hardware upgrades).

Tech Edge is not listed cause it is the biggest heap of shit out there.

Made by a middle aged man out of his house in Canberra, Australia, I tested many units of his and threw them all back in his house window! :smash:
They are universally regarded as a total joke here, no one of any credability uses them at all.

In this day and age when you can deal with a real company (not a back yard home business) and you can buy product that is accurate why anyone would want to buy a heap of turd TE is beyond me :smilielol5:

Innovate is not much better, I could write volumes on both, suffice to say save your money and deal with people and companies who's products are used by professionals and NOT hobby types :D and you will be fine. ;)

P.S. Autronic use 0-1 in there SMC and SM2 computer, they are NOT nikle and dime! NOR is the BuLLSHIT spread by TE that a LSM-11 0-1 v sensor is inacurate either, its only supplied to almost all Dyno Dynamics machines and is STILL a workhorse to this day!... there is too much crap on the internet by groupie gagers who cant tell shit form clay and listen to equally retarded peopel form Canberra with their token Gadafi styled web blog rants (I.E. tech edge!).

[classicauto]

FYI Rob,

The AEM only shows 11:1 on the sweep. The gauge actually measures down to 10:1.

I'm using an NGK AFX Powerdex with an NTK sensor. Approaching 45,000kms on this sensor and controller without issues. Matches up to the many dyno's I've been to over the years.

Never tried the unit Peter's suggesting, but I've definetly had a handful of failrues regarding widebands. Whichever you choose - make sure it either comes with, or is compatible with, an NTK style sensor. Had about 3 bosch sensors burn up from passionate rotary heat. Yes, the NTK sensors are money - but they're worth it. The powerdex units do not use EPROM chips though (preset on each sensor) you simply recalibrate the unit after plugging in the NTK sensor and drive.

NGK has a 0-5v output also. Also of note - the Powerdex measures down to 9:1 AFR.....not that you need to measure that :) but I found it nice to know how far below 10 the mixtures were when shaping up a fuel table. (or measuring BDC's cruising tune ratios :lol: )

[Rotary Evolution]

Tech Edge is not listed cause it is the biggest heap of shit out there.

Made by a middle aged man out of his house in Canberra, Australia, I tested many units of his and threw them all back in his house window! :smash:
They are universally regarded as a total joke here, no one of any credability uses them at all.

In this day and age when you can deal with a real company (not a back yard home business) and you can buy product that is accurate why anyone would want to buy a heap of turd TE is beyond me :smilielol5:

Innovate is not much better, I could write volumes on both, suffice to say save your money and deal with people and companies who's products are used by professionals and NOT hobby types :D and you will be fine. ;)

P.S. Autronic use 0-1 in there SMC and SM2 computer, they are NOT nikle and dime! NOR is the BuLLSHIT spread by TE that a LSM-11 0-1 v sensor is inacurate either, its only supplied to almost all Dyno Dynamics machines and is STILL a workhorse to this day!... there is too much crap on the internet by groupie gagers who cant tell shit form clay and listen to equally retarded peopel form Canberra with their token Gadafi styled web blog rants (I.E. tech edge!).

i suppose to each their own. i have had good success with techedge and one of the most renknown tuners in the US, Steve Khan uses a Innovate wideband.

[My5ABaby]

Thanks for the info thus far. I'm leaning towards an Innovate for budget and Powerdex if I decide to spend some coin but more info is always appreciated.

strange that Techedge isn't listed and is one of the most reliable widebands out there.
Any other thoughts? Suggestions?
:willy_nilly:

[RICE RACING]

Innovate is a toy nothing more,

Put it in your dump pipe and you can count how long it will last in seconds.

Real pro's use NTK, everything else is junk, pure and simple.

The ONLY Bosch sensor that is acceptable on a rotary is the good old LSM-11 (which wsa originally designed for coal combustion furnaces) they are bullit proof and the most durable sensor around.

[Rotary Evolution]

Innovate is a toy nothing more,

Put it in your dump pipe and you can count how long it will last in seconds.

Real pro's use NTK, everything else is junk, pure and simple.

The ONLY Bosch sensor that is acceptable on a rotary is the good old LSM-11 (which wsa originally designed for coal combustion furnaces) they are bullit proof and the most durable sensor around.

i thought i did mention my TE is using a NTK... my bad.


my Techedge with it's stock NTK sensor is about 10 years old and has tuned over 100 cars and has about 60k miles on it and still works perfectly.

perhaps they have gone down in quality over the years? this unit is obviously older due to my comment. not that it matters, you are obviously biased anyways and not worthy of responding to a real discussion.

[RICE RACING]

Tech Edge never had any quality to start with :gnorsi:

When I took my Autronic meter to his house! when I picked it up I foudn they had pulled it apart in a desperate attempt to reverse engineer the electronics cause they were too stupid to understand how Autronic make a LSM-11 sensor work.

Of ever funnier magnitiude was his demonstration of how it did not wark cause it would not respond to light fluid gas test lol. Then he went on to say when they trialed my meter on their factory test car( Ford Pinto!) compared to their TE unit "wideband" it was over one AFR out ! TE is a arse fest of a house based "company" always has been always will be. Over the years many shops have trialed his hack units and all have given them back to him after numerous problems running them where other units of reputable brands never ever had an issue.

I am sure he still operates his half arsed "home business" form his house in Canberra and his brothers house in his "American office" LOL. what a fuck burger!

[vex]

The LC-1 I have had in my car for over a year now without issue; however I cannot guarantee accuracy as I haven't sent out to be spec'd . I suppose if you have the cash to get the best, get the best, but for those who don't have $700 to spend on a setup get what works.

[NoDOHC]

Unfortunately Vex, you are too right. Not all of us have the infinite budget to spend on out hobby cars.

However, I have heard from two trusted sources (in real life, not on the internet - as Peter so despises) that the NTK sensors are considerably more robust.

I actually only use the wideband for tuning, I typically will either run open loop or throw in a narrow band after tuning for closed-loop operation. My AEM wideband worked for tuning many different cars.

Unfortunately, It developed a significant error over the years (about 2 AFR). What I thought was stoic was actually about 12.8:1. The inability to free-air calibrate allows for this drift.

[vex]

Unfortunately Vex, you are too right. Not all of us have the infinite budget to spend on out hobby cars.

However, I have heard from two trusted sources (in real life, not on the internet - as Peter so despises) that the NTK sensors are considerably more robust.

I actually only use the wideband for tuning, I typically will either run open loop or throw in a narrow band after tuning for closed-loop operation. My AEM wideband worked for tuning many different cars.

Unfortunately, It developed a significant error over the years (about 2 AFR). What I thought was stoic was actually about 12.8:1. The inability to free-air calibrate allows for this drift.
The LC-1 allows free-air calibration, but how do we know that any calibration is accurate? Besides sending out the unit to be qualified I have no idea how to test it.

[My5ABaby]

Innovate is a toy nothing more,

Put it in your dump pipe and you can count how long it will last in seconds.

Real pro's use NTK, everything else is junk, pure and simple.

The ONLY Bosch sensor that is acceptable on a rotary is the good old LSM-11 (which wsa originally designed for coal combustion furnaces) they are bullit proof and the most durable sensor around.
Although I did open up the discussion to all widebands, maybe we can say ones that are affordable for 95% of the board. However, if someday I get the money to go all out, I will definitely consider the Neko.