Why go to the trouble? ...........

[RICE RACING]

:auto:

I just was thinking of this after coming back for a 300km drive just now.

Why on earth would you want more power than a 13B turbo can deliver in a properly set up street car? in particular the headaches of 3 rotor transplant.

Out on the highway in my RICESP it is impossible to use full power in 1st, 2nd gears, 3rd gear is very dangerous using it to pass traffic that is doing 65mph or just over 100kmh.... it accelerates so stupidly quickly that literally in just over 2 seconds you are at 100mph and today nearly of 5 different occasions I almost lost it changing lanes, absolutely stupid levels of mid range power and instant response 4k to 8.5k I have yet to be beaten by anything and really shock the fuck out of many sports bikes! :auto: If you are game you grab 4th gear and keep onto it and do over 140mph and trust me its very very quick, you are not counting jesus beads waiting for it to happen, I am still yet to be able to look at any instruments when really on it like this (apart from quick glance at tach on shifts). 200+mph is but a formality and simply down to the size of your balls nothing else.

Now these are no hand grenades either been running like this on pump petrol and water injection for well over 8000km and still perfect compression. Economy is flat out unbelievable on 40lt I do 300km distance and that is driving like a mad man and really enjoying it at every opportunity.

So why go to a bigger engine?????
I don't know how the hell you can use more "torque", let alone power, I mean I have to detune my 13B so its not so dangerous on the road, and even so extreme caution needs to be exercised. so what is the go? do people just do it for the noise? or do they not know how to make a 13B fast reliable and durable?

[RICE RACING]

I guess dumb cunts like this have something to do with it > http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=903611&page=16 talking about "power under the curve" GT42's & porting LOL, no wonder 20B's are considered ! what a dumb bastard!

[RETed]

So you can install a RaceLogic Traction Control box and tune yet another box in your car! :D


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

So you can install a RaceLogic Traction Control box and tune yet another box in your car! :D


-Ted

Already have that on the 13B fucken :001_302:

I actually use the speed dependent boost on the Blitz to safe the Traction Control going mad, as it can't cope with the sudden inrush of power that ~21psi produces in 2nd gear, its more efficient to reduce the boost and power, then feed that in @ 3rd gear and 25+psi in 4th and 5th.

I just cant imagine the need to another rotor, unless people are still hung up on not using a turbo the way god had intended.?

I would love to run about 36psi in road trim on the 13B with pump petrol but its just not practical from a traction stand point let alone drive train durability, really need a 4WD chassis to exploit that.

It's like BMW made 1000bhp+ on a 1.5lt 4cyl and even that same motor was used in IMSA in the 80's to punch out a reliable and responsive 800bhp! in 2lt form....... I just think people have no idea how to make power and response, and durability seems to be a foreign concept to them.

[ducktape]

There are some ridiculous street cars being cranked out from the factory these days, to say nothing about shed-builds.

I built my street car to compete in the local 1/8th mile "street race" series at my local drag strip. The rules are pretty strict; Licensed and registered road-legal cars only, no trailer queens allowed. Full interior required, stock suspension mounting points, no tubs, no half-chassis.

I built a cherry bridge-port REW. It turned the rollers at 436whp at 1 bar... It was a solid high-10 second car that I literally drove to and from the track (and to work from time to time). The problem is it's just not enough to compete! When the competition shows up with 800hp and can pull the front wheels in a car with factory air-conditioning, air-bags, and a stereo you're just not in the same league.

And believe it or not, lack of adequate torque IS a problem when you're on the bleeding edge. I was able to cut some 60ft times that were close to some of the v8 cars, but you wouldn't believe how hard I had to push to get them. Coming off the line with hot 8.5" slicks, I had to set the two-step rev limiter at 7k and side step the clutch... Anything less, and the engine would bog and I'd lose time. Revving the nuts off the car from a dead-dig caused all sorts of problems. From destroying output shaft bearings and ruining driveshaft yokes, to driveline twist that actually managed to damage the internals. The v8 guys launch almost lazily in comparison.

The 13b is a wonderful platform. I have been building and driving 13b powered cars for 10 years and I have been consistently amazed by what it can do. I even agree that for *most* people, it's all the motor they'll ever need and is more than enough to get you a heap of trouble. But in a world where you can go to a GM dealership and buy a bog-standard Corvette ZR1 with almost 700hp and a warranty, the 20b makes perfect sense. Those few extra cubic inches can keep you competitive without having a motor wound tighter than a rubber band.

[RICE RACING]

I do accelerate harder than a ZR1 now and with a stock std 13B-REW ;)
With a RX7 its power to weight and a slippery car. I can push my package much harder and know how much I have in reserve, thus why I was thinking this when I came home and though why do people think about a bigger motor? but I do understand your post and agree. The larger unit is less stressed. Probably allow you to catch a Bugatti too :auto:

[RICE RACING]

It's all in the boost :sifone:

http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/bloc4-61.gif

[Judge Ito]

:auto:

I just was thinking of this after coming back for a 300km drive just now.

Why on earth would you want more power than a 13B turbo can deliver in a properly set up street car? in particular the headaches of 3 rotor transplant.

Out on the highway in my RICESP it is impossible to use full power in 1st, 2nd gears, 3rd gear is very dangerous using it to pass traffic that is doing 65mph or just over 100kmh.... it accelerates so stupidly quickly that literally in just over 2 seconds you are at 100mph and today nearly of 5 different occasions I almost lost it changing lanes, absolutely stupid levels of mid range power and instant response 4k to 8.5k I have yet to be beaten by anything and really shock the fuck out of many sports bikes! :auto: If you are game you grab 4th gear and keep onto it and do over 140mph and trust me its very very quick, you are not counting jesus beads waiting for it to happen, I am still yet to be able to look at any instruments when really on it like this (apart from quick glance at tach on shifts). 200+mph is but a formality and simply down to the size of your balls nothing else.

Now these are no hand grenades either been running like this on pump petrol and water injection for well over 8000km and still perfect compression. Economy is flat out unbelievable on 40lt I do 300km distance and that is driving like a mad man and really enjoying it at every opportunity.

So why go to a bigger engine?????
I don't know how the hell you can use more "torque", let alone power, I mean I have to detune my 13B so its not so dangerous on the road, and even so extreme caution needs to be exercised. so what is the go? do people just do it for the noise? or do they not know how to make a 13B fast reliable and durable?

and you just found this out today? rookie. people don't know until they reach these levels. then when you reach these levels you realize what a fucking dangerous pickle your in. I constantly tell people, they need no more then 350rwhp to feel like in somewhat control and enjoy their rotary powered cars.

[My5ABaby]

Sure a 20B swap is expensive, but how much have you spent on your engine to get it to where it's at? I'm not arguing that it tends to be overkill, but let's compare apples to apples.

[RETed]

I concur...
With the weight and suspension set-up, 300...350hp makes for a very FUN drive.
It's enough power to walk away from over 90% of the cars out there.
But...
It's always been ingrained by society to be the best...the fastest...#1...
It all ends up being mostly bragging rights in the end.
How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.

About the 20B specifically...
The added torque is a plus.
The 13B out of boost doesn't have the torque that the extra rotor provides.
I'm not talking about all-out race conditions, but daily driving just putting around on the street...
It's nice to not have to downshift all the time. :D


-Ted

[My5ABaby]

How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.

I'll be honest, my S4 N/A is the fastest car I've ever really driven, but sometimes that's even a bit much. Granted, you get used to what you're driving, but still.

[Max777]

I asked my instructor at auto-tech once about why we needed a 6 liter turbo-diesel V8 that only does 350hp and 400ft-lbs of torque when a 4g63 2 liter 4cylinder can make those levels of power.

His reply was: The v8 will last 200,000 miles of heavy duty use. The 4 cylinder will not last that long while being stressed to the same point.

The 2 liter 1000hp formula 1 engines of the 80's were powerful, however they only lasted for a very short time, I believe they had 2 engines just for qualifying.

I think that a stock port 20b with a mild single turbo and low boost will last a lot longer than a high strung 13B with the same power output. also, the natural torque off boost makes it more drivable from what I have read so far.

[Herblenny]

I concur...
With the weight and suspension set-up, 300...350hp makes for a very FUN drive.
It's enough power to walk away from over 90% of the cars out there.
But...
It's always been ingrained by society to be the best...the fastest...#1...
It all ends up being mostly bragging rights in the end.
How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.


I agree with you Ted.. my skill level is right around 300 rwhp on the FD...

That being said, I also agree regarding anything above that being just to show off... Hence why I'm building a 20B.. But mainly for 'show' purpose (hopefully 600RWHP). But I know, its not going to be fun except going straight line.

[RotorDad]

I concur...
With the weight and suspension set-up, 300...350hp makes for a very FUN drive.
It's enough power to walk away from over 90% of the cars out there.
But...
It's always been ingrained by society to be the best...the fastest...#1...
It all ends up being mostly bragging rights in the end.
How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.


-Ted

Honestly I have driven numerous cars in the 600+ range without any issues, but anything more then 350-400 in a street driven RX7 is over kill. Big numbers without the rest of the equation is pointless.

[RXTASY]

My TII has been between 400 and 550 RWHP for a few years now and I have to concur with everything you are saying.
Sometimes I have to ask myself "why"?
The car is so fast now, it scares the hell out of me when I get on it. It is absolutely the fastest thing I have ever had underneath me.

[My5ABaby]

It is absolutely the fastest thing I have ever had underneath me.
That's what she said?

[TitaniumTT]

I concur...
With the weight and suspension set-up, 300...350hp makes for a very FUN drive.
It's enough power to walk away from over 90% of the cars out there.
But...
It's always been ingrained by society to be the best...the fastest...#1...
It all ends up being mostly bragging rights in the end.
How many of us can handle 500...600hp safely?
I'll be the first to admit it scares me.

About the 20B specifically...
The added torque is a plus.
The 13B out of boost doesn't have the torque that the extra rotor provides.
I'm not talking about all-out race conditions, but daily driving just putting around on the street...
It's nice to not have to downshift all the time. :D


-Ted

Enter the sequential twin turbo :D lets put it this way.... when my tranny got jammed between 5th and 6th I got stuck at a light.... the tools behind me (in a boosted jetta) was being a total ass. When the light turned green and I managed to get through the left hand turn onto a 2 lane rd he tried to pass me.... idle in 5th is about 15mph... I stomped on it and he couldn't get around me... from idle. His rear got to about my front bumper before I got into decent power but still, he couldn't get around me in 5th from idle.. :fawk: is what he got when I pulled away from him :rofl:

I agree with you Ted.. my skill level is right around 300 rwhp on the FD...

That being said, I also agree regarding anything above that being just to show off... Hence why I'm building a 20B.. But mainly for 'show' purpose (hopefully 600RWHP). But I know, its not going to be fun except going straight line.

Traction control!!!! Hopefully this will be dialed in for Deals, you've gotta drive her Phil... it'll be like a reunion.... your ass in your old seats :rofl:

That's what she said?

Again!!?!?!?!! :lol:

[diabolical1]

i get what you're saying. all things being equal, it all comes down to know-how and self-honesty. however, for many, it's all egos, self-delusions and plain stupidity. many people don't seem to want to accept that there is a difference between a street car, a streetable car, a raceable car and a race car. compromises can be made, but at the risk of sounding self-righteous, if you look at a 700 HP 13B Rx-7 and think "4 season daily driver", then you're probably an idiot.

forget the 20B arguments for a minute. one of my pet peeves on the other board has always been the insistence by some people to go out and buy JC 13Bs for FBs and FCs because they need the "extra strength" for the BNR Stage 2 or T04S projects. a little bit of extra time and careful application would net good results on a S4 or S5 13BT - bottomline is you could build a really FAST car with those "lesser" blocks. it vexes me to no end when those same retards report back a month later - Cosmo engine all blown to shit ... at a whopping 340 HP.

[RICE RACING]

i get what you're saying. all things being equal, it all comes down to know-how and self-honesty. however, for many, it's all egos, self-delusions and plain stupidity. many people don't seem to want to accept that there is a difference between a street car, a streetable car, a raceable car and a race car. compromises can be made, but at the risk of sounding self-righteous, if you look at a 700 HP 13B Rx-7 and think "4 season daily driver", then you're probably an idiot.

forget the 20B arguments for a minute. one of my pet peeves on the other board has always been the insistence by some people to go out and buy JC 13Bs for FBs and FCs because they need the "extra strength" for the BNR Stage 2 or T04S projects. a little bit of extra time and careful application would net good results on a S4 or S5 13BT - bottomline is you could build a really FAST car with those "lesser" blocks. it vexes me to no end when those same retards report back a month later - Cosmo engine all blown to shit ... at a whopping 340 HP.

I agree!

FFS I had 590bhp from a S5 block no poofter extra dowels in 1997! :leaving: Made many other cars based on S4 and S5 blocks all on stock manifolds and all at similar power and the owners NEVER ever wanted for anything more.

The world is getting stupider with the advent of the internet rather than smarter is seems to me. BDC has allot to do with it :icon_tup:

[Herblenny]

Traction control!!!! Hopefully this will be dialed in for Deals, you've gotta drive her Phil... it'll be like a reunion.... your ass in your old seats :rofl:
:

Can't wait!!

i get what you're saying. all things being equal, it all comes down to know-how and self-honesty. however, for many, it's all egos, self-delusions and plain stupidity. many people don't seem to want to accept that there is a difference between a street car, a streetable car, a raceable car and a race car. compromises can be made, but at the risk of sounding self-righteous, if you look at a 700 HP 13B Rx-7 and think "4 season daily driver", then you're probably an idiot.

forget the 20B arguments for a minute. one of my pet peeves on the other board has always been the insistence by some people to go out and buy JC 13Bs for FBs and FCs because they need the "extra strength" for the BNR Stage 2 or T04S projects. a little bit of extra time and careful application would net good results on a S4 or S5 13BT - bottomline is you could build a really FAST car with those "lesser" blocks. it vexes me to no end when those same retards report back a month later - Cosmo engine all blown to shit ... at a whopping 340 HP.

I agree.. In modern era with 500+HP cars weighing 3500+ with all the modern idiot proof cars could be daily driven.. but our RX7 era with sub 3000lbs with no idiot proof electronics, it requires 'actual' driving skills.
Like I said before, and I have said to many many people at shows, I'm just not 'talented' as some to handle 500+ HP cars. Straight line and maybe at a drag strip, I might be.. But personally, my 300 HP ish, seq twin, FD is enough for me to have fun. I just can't wait to get my silver FD running good so I could go Rice Rice baby on my MB and make it useless :)

[ZGN]

Can't wait!!
I just can't wait to get my silver FD running good so I could go Rice Rice baby on my MB and make it useless :)
hahahahah I got to meet the ice man once :) we need to meet up and do some local bham night runs...

[GorillaRE]

You are missing the biggest point here... Horse power SELLS, period. It's just the way the performance car world works.

-J

[RICE RACING]

oh forgot to mention........ I am building a 1400bhp 4 rotor twin turbo road car that will weight 2000lb :willy_nilly:

[TitaniumTT]

Bullshit until we see pics with some cute little blonde holding a sign that says Join RCC

[Ian]

:auto:

I just was thinking of this after coming back for a 300km drive just now.

Why on earth would you want more power than a 13B turbo can deliver in a properly set up street car? in particular the headaches of 3 rotor transplant.

Out on the highway in my RICESP it is impossible to use full power in 1st, 2nd gears, 3rd gear is very dangerous using it to pass traffic that is doing 65mph or just over 100kmh.... it accelerates so stupidly quickly that literally in just over 2 seconds you are at 100mph and today nearly of 5 different occasions I almost lost it changing lanes, absolutely stupid levels of mid range power and instant response 4k to 8.5k I have yet to be beaten by anything and really shock the fuck out of many sports bikes! :auto: If you are game you grab 4th gear and keep onto it and do over 140mph and trust me its very very quick, you are not counting jesus beads waiting for it to happen, I am still yet to be able to look at any instruments when really on it like this (apart from quick glance at tach on shifts). 200+mph is but a formality and simply down to the size of your balls nothing else.

Now these are no hand grenades either been running like this on pump petrol and water injection for well over 8000km and still perfect compression. Economy is flat out unbelievable on 40lt I do 300km distance and that is driving like a mad man and really enjoying it at every opportunity.

So why go to a bigger engine?????
I don't know how the hell you can use more "torque", let alone power, I mean I have to detune my 13B so its not so dangerous on the road, and even so extreme caution needs to be exercised. so what is the go? do people just do it for the noise? or do they not know how to make a 13B fast reliable and durable?

8000km is dick all! And 400rwhp on the street is not fast:)

Come tune my car. Its dyno proven 400rwhp and see if you can make a difference. I will strap it on the dyno and do a pull. You perform your magic and see if there is a difference. If you don't tune my car then your full of shit. Read between the lines.... :)

P.S that is 400+rwhp, two ems (Moving to the Platinum2000 and two turbo changes and over 60,0000km++++

:) Any fighting words in there for ya....

[sen2two]

My street car (1990 TII) has the stock untouched turbo, never even opened up motor and stock ECU. Just modified all the stock existing parts tuned with a NEO and still will break the tires loose all the way from 1st to 3rd. Even rolling in 3rd, the tires will break loose. these are 255 wide tires that are decently sticky...

I have learned that for a daily, TII and FD's do not need any "real" upgrades. Anything more is just for fun but is not really usable unless your some dumb fuck doing 65+ mph rolls on the highway... gayyyy

[TitaniumTT]

You need to try to dial in the rear suspension a little more. At over 400rwhp 3rd will barely break loose on 255/40's and I should have >100 whp over a stock ht18

[RICE RACING]

8000km is dick all! And 400rwhp on the street is not fast:)

Come tune my car. Its dyno proven 400rwhp and see if you can make a difference. I will strap it on the dyno and do a pull. You perform your magic and see if there is a difference. If you don't tune my car then your full of shit. Read between the lines.... :)

P.S that is 400+rwhp, two ems (Moving to the Platinum2000 and two turbo changes and over 60,0000km++++

:) Any fighting words in there for ya....

:willy_nilly: :302:

8000km at high duty cycle (percentage of time at full power and revs) is different to 60,000+++km on lower duty cycle...

Differences aside...

I have had and done this since 1997 (590bhp first gen) 478rearhubhp (< measured at lower boost), much more than estOjet fictional figures (prob 500+ lol) 60,000km no problems, done the same on many other customers cars and repeated the HP and distance covered easily :)

As the last poster eluded to, it is BDC super gay wanting more :dunno: though sometimes we all have an inner rampant homo pony tail non intercooled 25psi gene wanting to come out from the closet :117: aka more powerz


:tongue1::grouphug::smilielol5:

[RICE RACING]

My street car (1990 TII) has the stock untouched turbo, never even opened up motor and stock ECU. Just modified all the stock existing parts tuned with a NEO and still will break the tires loose all the way from 1st to 3rd. Even rolling in 3rd, the tires will break loose. these are 255 wide tires that are decently sticky...

I have learned that for a daily, TII and FD's do not need any "real" upgrades. Anything more is just for fun but is not really usable unless your some dumb fuck doing 65+ mph rolls on the highway... gayyyy

Dude! you need some tires and suspension lol. My thing making 550bhp (~25psi, TO4Z, Don Mega set up) on 255's and Ohlin's dialed in will "just" break the tires rolling in 3rd gear. You would have 200+bhp less and more weight helping traction. Are you sure you don't have an open differential and a set of nankangs that are harder than Peter North's wang?

[sen2two]

You need to try to dial in the rear suspension a little more. At over 400rwhp 3rd will barely break loose on 255/40's and I should have >100 whp over a stock ht18

Dude! you need some tires and suspension lol. My thing making 550bhp (~25psi, TO4Z, Don Mega set up) on 255's and Ohlin's dialed in will "just" break the tires rolling in 3rd gear. You would have 200+bhp less and more weight helping traction. Are you sure you don't have an open differential and a set of nankangs that are harder than Peter North's wang?

Its a s4 TII diff. The rear is a little stiff. I have Cusco coilovers and solid mounts everywhere. So that's part of it. And I have a fuel cell which takes a lot of the weight out of the rear reducing traction some also. But I'm not worried about that. I have a set of Weld Pro stars with some M/T slicks and skinnies for the front when I want it to hook ;)