Crimping vs. Soldering

[My5ABaby]

Throughout the years I've made various electrical connections (who with a 7 hasn't), but have never really known what I was doing other than some brief instructions from friends.

So my question is, what's the right way to connect two wires together?

I've read on the soldering vs. crimping debate and am leaning towards crimping being the proper way to connect two wires. However, I am finding all kinds of mixed results as to what kind of connectors to use, what kind of crimpers crimpers, insulated vs. non-insulated, etc. I've also ran across Posi-Tite connectors that seem quite interesting.

Maybe some scenarios will help.

I'm installing a new sensor in the engine bay and need to make a connection in the engine bay.

A second 12v outlet in the cabin. I have one wire running off an existing positive connection and one coming from the new outlet. How should I connect those two?

Installing a new EMS system. What kind of connections should I use there?

I prefer to leave everything so it's easily replaceable so not using a butt style connector is a preference. Although it would be good info to know the very best method, a budget method would also be good. I can't afford $400 crimpers and connectors that cost $20 each.

[TitaniumTT]

If you call just about anyone that builds harness's, they should all tell you the same thing - CRIMP>SOLDER. In ANY circumstance. I questioned this even when dealing with the heavier gauge battery type cable... bigger than 8ga, and they say the same holds true. So I went out and dropped $80 on a lug crimper. MOST of the crimpers that you'll need are going to be around the $50 range if you hunt around. Most of the crimps I bought were from either Terminal Supply Co, Waytek. There was one co that had a REALLY nice buttsplice connector, I can't remember the name of it, I'll have to look at it when I'm in the garage next. The only time crimps are going to run you more than that are going to be in the mil-spec variety and I've been told that there are other/cheaper alternative than the Davis Manufacturing crimps.

So, you had mentioned the engine bay sensor. If at all possible I would cut the wire to length, and use the proper connector pins. You can usually crimp them with a Metri-pack style crimper. I use the metri-pak connector for metri and weather pack terminals. It can be found here
http://order.waytekwire.com/productdetail2/M50/508/CRIMPING%20TOOL%20METRI%20PACK%20150/
but I know I searched around and found it for $80

If that doesn't work becuase the wire can't be extended, or its a mazda terminal, then you need to butt-splice them in. I personally, when wiring a car, use the un-insulated butt-splice stuff and just heat shrink it. I buy poly-olefin non insulated by the 100' spool and use that everywhere but the engine bay. Unless it's going to be loomed over with something. In the engine bay in an unprotected situation, I buy the adhesive lined stuff. If I'm wiring a boat, I use the retardedly expensive heat-shrink terminals. The only reason I do this is becuase most of the boats I wire are commercial and need to be coast-guard inspected. The CG generally doesn't approve anything that isn't individually heatshrunk unless it's an approved OE harness.

Connectors can be found here -
http://order.waytekwire.com/products2/M50/320/200/100/1/Butt-Non%20Insulated%20Butted/Butt%20Connectors/Terminals%20And%20Connectors/
Crimps, these are the ones I'm not sure about, I paid $60 for them, will have to ge the name. It's a local co up in North Haven CT too. But, they're along these lines.
http://order.waytekwire.com/productdetail2/M50/434/HEAVY%20DUTY%20CRIMPING%20TOOL/
except I paid $50. They do non-insulated butt-splice connectors. I also have a set of insulated butt-splice connectors for the marine stuff.

In your second situation, two wires on one side, one wire on the other. There is a special connector for that. Terminal supply co sells them as well and I believe a little cheaper. Either way, here is what they look like.
http://order.waytekwire.com/products2/M50/320/200/900/1/Step%20Down%20Butt%20Connector/Butt%20Connectors/Terminals%20And%20Connectors/
Basically, you would use one that has an 18-22ga (red) on one side, and a 14-16ga (blue) on the other. The factory wire would be cut and stripped. The additional wire would be spliced with the factory and then inserted into the blue cavity and crimped. Don't forget to put your heat-shrink on. Then the other side of the factory wire inserted into the red cavity and then crimped as well. Heat the shirnk and you're done.

I've had the solder vs crimp debate with alot of people. I've never had a crimp fail. I've had solder joints fail. I've also over crimped a wire and cut the strand, but that was only once.

[RETed]

I use a set of MSD crimpers with the replacable dies.
With the three other option die sets, you can handle 90% of the crimp connections out there.
These include insulated and non-insulated - "Duestch" / "AMP lug" / "AMP pin".
This MSD crimper is also ratcheting, which will not release until you hit the proper compression.
The crimp tool + optional 3 sets of dies should come out to under $200.
(The crimp tool already comes with the "spark plug wire" set of dies.


-Ted

[FerociousP]

I second the crimping... if done properly. I prefer the un-insulated splices, crimp each side twice (using cheap crimpers), and heatshrink. Way cheaper and only a little more work than using heatshrink insulated connectors.

I'd like to find a good pair of crimpers ($50-100max) that I can be confident with and will hold up over time. Can the elctrical gurus post their favorites like Titanium and Reted above?

[My5ABaby]

Great info thus far!

What size heat shrink would be good to order?
1/4th for 8ga
3/16th for 10-14ga
1/8th for 16+ga?

Does anyone pack dielectrical grease in their connectors before crimping/heat shrinking?

Like these Ted?

https://www.msdignition.com/Products/Spark_Plug_Wires/Accessories/35051_-_Pro_Crimp_Tool,_Ratchet_Action.aspx
https://www.msdignition.com/uploadedImages/MSDIgnitioncom/Products/Spark_Plug_Wires/35051_full.jpg

[My5ABaby]

Looking at the wiring, there's a lot of choices.

GPT primary wire
TWP primary wire
GXL cross-link wire
SGT battery wire
SGX battery wire
SXL cross-link wire
TXL cross-link wire

I found this:
When in doubt, use 125°C rated TXL, GXL, SXL, or SGX wire insulation for engine compartment and general wiring. The only difference between these is the thickness of the insulation and cost, with the thicker being the more expensive. They are all insulated with crosslinked polyethylene, which is almost as heat resistant as teflon, but cheaper and much tougher.

TXL is the wire used by vehicle manufacturers for most applications, and is the thinnest, lightest, and lowest cost of these insulations. It is tough and long lasting.

GXL is an intermediate insulation,with thickness and cost between TXL and SXL.

SXL is the second thickest of the crosslinked polyethylene insulations, and suggested for use in the heavier gauges, or where some additional protection from possible mechanical damage is needed.

SGX is the thickest of the crosslinked polyethylene insulations. SGX is particularly recommended for battery cable, because of the rather spectacular consequences of a shorted battery cable.

GPT is a PVC insulated wire rated at 85°C used for general chassis wiring, and should not be used in the engine compartment of your car according to the SAE J1128 spec. It's not as tough or heat resistant as TXL or GXL insulation, but it is considerably cheaper. This is the wire found in retail stores.
Sound about right?

If so, I would presumably go with TXL for most things, SXL in high heat areas (oxygen sensor wire or something), and SGX for battery cable?

[RETed]

Like these Ted?

https://www.msdignition.com/Products/Spark_Plug_Wires/Accessories/35051_-_Pro_Crimp_Tool,_Ratchet_Action.aspx
https://www.msdignition.com/uploadedImages/MSDIgnitioncom/Products/Spark_Plug_Wires/35051_full.jpg

Yep, that's the ones I got.
Summit Racing or Jegs is going to give you the best price.
Make sure you order the optional dies.
AMP lug = butt connectors, spade / ring / male / female insulated
AMP pin = non-insulated
Deutsch = almost all your sensor pin connectors including Weatherpack in a pinch

The price sounds high, but it's a well-made tool and will make all your crimp connectors professional.
You're going to kick yourself for not getting it sooner. :)


-Ted

[RETed]

Does anyone pack dielectrical grease in their connectors before crimping/heat shrinking?

Not normally...

Weatherpack / Metripack connectors usually have silicone plugs in them.
Deustch also using a single silicone block to back the connector housing (no matter how many wires).

These are usually more than enough to handle automotive environs.


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

Ted's right, you'll kick yourself. I just didn't want to be bothered changing dies all the time. I figured in the past I would crimp a butt, then a pin.... than an insulated butt.... so why spend the time changing dies? i just one crimper for each and have loved them ever since.

I don't use the grease before crimping, but I do smear a little on the terminals before plugging them together.

[FC Zach]

Yep, that's the ones I got.
Summit Racing or Jegs is going to give you the best price.
Make sure you order the optional dies.
AMP lug = butt connectors, spade / ring / male / female insulated
AMP pin = non-insulated
Deutsch = almost all your sensor pin connectors including Weatherpack in a pinch

The price sounds high, but it's a well-made tool and will make all your crimp connectors professional.
You're going to kick yourself for not getting it sooner. :)


-Ted

I have those and absolutely love them. I use DMCs at work and think those are precise aand awesome but I just can't see spending that much money on a set for the house when the MSD set does almost the same at a fraction of the price.

[mazpower]

This thread rocks.

I just ordered a set of the MSD crimpers with the dies. I've soldered in the past but after talking with Brian and opening my eyes to better ways of doing things, I'm gonna start crimping my harness connections.

[My5ABaby]

http://bestboatwire.com/catalog/images/3_to_1_heat_shrink_techdata.jpg

According to that:
1/16 = 24, 22
3/32 = 20
1/8 = 18
3/16 = 16, 14, 12
1/4 = 10, 8
3/8 = 8, 6
1/2 = 6, 4
3/4 = 4, 2
1 = 2

[FerociousP]

Future archive material. I've been meaning to create a new electrical bag. This will be a good start.

[TitaniumTT]

Problem is the butt-connectors are thicker than the wire, so anything smaller than 1/8" is useless except to repair nicks in the sheathing. I buy 1/8", 1/4", and 1/2" and then heavy ass triple wall adhesive lined for battery cables

[RETed]

I have those and absolutely love them. I use DMCs at work and think those are precise aand awesome but I just can't see spending that much money on a set for the house when the MSD set does almost the same at a fraction of the price.

Yep.
I have several DMC crimpers (and turrets) just to handle the solid, machined Deutsch pins.
At over $200 a pop each crimper, it pricey, but they sure do a nice job!

Yes, the MSD crimp tool is a bargain compared to the DMC stuff.
If you look hard enough, there are even "generic" versions of the MSD crimp tool (I think Summit Racing makes one?) that's even cheaper if you're trying to save some bucks.

I've never been too bothered with changing the dies out myself. :)


-Ted

[Dannobre]

Good crimping is superior to soldering......soldering is better than bad crimping in almost every way.....

Moral of the story is buy a proper crimp tool and the correct dies for you application...or it will fail :)

[MaczPayne]

I seem to remember a picture floating around where a guy hung several anchors on a piece of wire crimped to another.

[My5ABaby]

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/40849-proper-crimping-strong-crimp-vs-solder.html

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/93367274.jpg

[TitaniumTT]

I spy an aluminum Danforth anchor in there :suspect: Still probably about 80lbs

[hades]

similar to my thread in the 3rd gen section.

I don't generally go to the 2nd gen section, but saw this thread. Lots of good information. Is there a way we can have a common 'how to' section or put this in the fab section?:dunno: I just don't want to miss good information that is not gen specific....maybe i'll just have to swing by teh 2nd gen section more :willy_nilly:

[rxspeed7]

Definetly a crimp>solder connection. I work for Lockheed Martin soo thankfully i have full access to just about every type of DMC crimper and luggers. Once a month our crimp tools get re-calibrated and tested to ensure that each crimp(varies with awg) can hold at least 50ft.lbs of pulling force. For any wiring that will be in a harsh enviroment crimping a connection is your best bet, with a soldered connection you will have solder wick up into the wire, and over time from vibe,stress,pulling and thermal stress you will get a fatigued solder joint that will crack and break. With a crimped connection you dont have to worry about this too much

I'm actually in the process of redoing all the wiring in my car with amphenol and various other mil style connections and sleeving. i will post pics of the finished product.

Zack.

[TitaniumTT]

No Zach, you will post pics now, and lots of them, or I will ban you after a mail a package of anthrax and poisonous spiders to your house :rofl:

[TitaniumTT]

Jeff's right, this belongs in a different section. I'll move it shortly

[rxspeed7]

haha, You getting jealous Brian?.... I'll snap some photos tomm. Pretty much ebay is the place to get amphenol and amp style circular mil spec connectors and pins.


Zack.

[TitaniumTT]

Nope, already did all the mil-spec wiring that needs to be done on my FC. Itching to get started with it on the FD though and always interested to see others top quality wiring work.... gives me motivation to DO IT BETTER THAN YOU MWWAAHAAHAHAAHA!!!!!!

[rxspeed7]

Haha sounds good man.

Zack

[vex]

I hate working with some people in Lockheed Martin (contract work). I think I'm going to finally order DMC crimp and turret. Not to mention get the cannon plugs. Sigh... more money, less time.

[rxspeed7]

Haha i feel you, we have a lot of young gunho engineers that don't know there ass from there head. It really aggrevates me to see how they treat some of the operators and other engineers. What kind of contract work do you do for Lockheed?

[vex]

Rocket Propulsion. Oh the stories we could tell...

[rxspeed7]

haha oh yes!!

Zack

[ledgebmx]

Why not do both? We crimp and then solder the connections at our shop because the EMS is very sensitive to resistance. If you crimp for strength and solder for reliability, you get the best of both worlds.

[TitaniumTT]

Soldering creates resistance and can introduce corrosion which can lead to even more resistance. Just crimp them and walk away ;)

So where do we want this? Rotary Tech? Fabrication? ECU products?

[rxspeed7]

Plus another thing with soldering connections is that, if you do not clean the flux off when you are done over time that flux can cause many issues with conductivity and integrity of the connection.

Sry for not posting pics yet, i got lazy today. lol.


ZAck.

[TitaniumTT]

You're gonna get banned Zach. Just saying. Unless of course your car makes it to DGRR.

[rxspeed7]

I've really been thinking about making the trip. Do you have a link to all the info on the 5 W's and how?

But ok,ok, here's a shot of the connectors themselves. The two small ones are 12pin 16awg connectors, one is for the cas wiring and coils, and the other small one is for the injectors. The bigger one is a 21pin 16awg connector that will be used for all sensors(including all the greddy sensors and a few other things i'm running through) when i finally get the harness out i'll post more.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b232/driftfc/321eadb7.jpg


Zack.

[TitaniumTT]

Why not build an entirely new engine harness?

I would've made an entirely seperate and new harness for the engine, including injectors/CAS. Then used the heavier gauge ones for the power coming off the internal fuse block going through the firewall and all the other headlight/turn signal, washer, horn's everything else in the front of the car and hidden it behind the fender. Hiding it behind the fender with those connectors will be tough though

[vex]

Did I do bad for just ordering a single plug for passing everything through?

[rxspeed7]

I was looking at the body harness today actually. I couldn't help but think how big and ugly it was. I really wanna slim it donw and hide it. I prob will end up moving it into to te fender. It really only is used for the accessories(lights,markers, turn signals). I'm not using the stock coils nor the wiring for them so it's just taken up space.

Zack.

[NoDOHC]

Another big issue with soldering is that it makes the wire less flexible for a section (where it wicks up) this will cause a stress concentration and fatigue failure at the edge of the solder for any wire that vibrates (like all of them in the engine bay). Crimp is better.

[TitaniumTT]

I was looking at the body harness today actually. I couldn't help but think how big and ugly it was. I really wanna slim it donw and hide it. I prob will end up moving it into to te fender. It really only is used for the accessories(lights,markers, turn signals). I'm not using the stock coils nor the wiring for them so it's just taken up space.

Zack.

Believe it or not, there's not as much to come out of that harness as you may think. And if you're like me, you put some in. I added Efan relay, fogs, 2 relays for the lights and a horn relay just becuase of how I have everything wired up. The 2 sets of 3-wire 20ga tefzel for the speed sensors.

The AAS can come out as well as a few other things from the engine bay. Tucking it under the fender is a MFPITA!

[vex]

Don't get me wrong everything has it's place. Soldering can make seamless connections between wires, though as has already been mentioned they can become sources of failure. The best application of connective products is their appropriate location. For permanent connections with minimal movement a good solder joint is hard to beat. For locations where movement is expected crimps will be the best bet. Additionally one need be keenly aware that there are different types of solder and they're engineered for specific applications with different flexibility, heat, and electrical conductance.

[calicrewchief]

This is from my Haltech E6X harness. I bought it brand new.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m8/calicrewchief/DSC_0637.jpg

[My5ABaby]

Wait, the harness was brand new? As in you didn't make that mess, a "professional" did?

[calicrewchief]

Wait, the harness was brand new? As in you didn't make that mess, a "professional" did?

That's correct.

[TitaniumTT]

And people wonder why Halteck harnessi suck and many have reported trigger issues, weak injectors etc etc etc. That's embarassing

[RICE RACING]

That looks like BDC Helltech instal :117:

[TitaniumTT]

Believe it or not, his wiring is actually worse than that.

[vex]

I don't believe my Haltech harness is like that; but then again I'm using a PS1k ecu and harness.

[My5ABaby]

That is pretty embarassing. I use crappy equipment and haven't been taught how to do this stuff and my work is 100x better than that...

[blackedoutFC3S]

I just read through this thread because I'm trying to remove all the connectors from my harness I don't need (emissions mostly) and clean it up a bit and extend or shorten wires. I'm looking at getting the MSD crimper now that was talked about earlier, but what connectors would be good for the stock wiring and what do people here use for heat shrink and do you all cover your wires with expandable mesh sleeving or something else? I want to do it right the first time, If I have to spend the extra money that's fine, I just want to make sure I do it right. Still not exactly sure what I'm looking for.

I also read somewhere about people de-pinning the wires actually from the harness connector to ECU. Has anyone done this?

[TitaniumTT]

Yup, I've done it. You'd be surprised at how many wires aren't needed when you run a standalone.

As for the connectors, I've never had a need to source the stock pins, so I can't help you there. I buy all my connectors through Terminal Supply Co or Waytek, depending on the size of the order. Larger orders are cheaper through Waytek. Their min is based on quantity, not dollar amounts.

I use Raychem DR-25 for any engine bay wire covering. Inside the cabin I'll use the expandable sleeving stuff.

I use polyolefin heatshrink in the cabin, and the adhesive lined stuff in the bay

[ducktape]

Here's what I've learned:

Crimping is superior, but who says you can't do both? For my off-road car I crimped every end connector and spot-soldered the ends. For butt splices, I typically don't solder.

I buy my connectors from these guys:
http://www.pelec.com/

I use standard PC-type M/F connectors (You can get them as high as 20pin). They're cheap; you can buy new pins for the connector in almost any size for pennies.

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/z_pcpc_drivewye.jpg

Note: Get the LOCKING kind

I use the crimp tool they sell for $15. I strip the ends off the wire, crimp the pin on, spot solder the pin to the wire, slide the pin into the connector and use a syringe to fill the cavity with black silicone. When adequately prepared I can do a wire a minute.

The great thing about these is once you've connected them you can zip-tie them together. I assembled a complete harness for my rail with these that comes apart in three pieces, so the motor comes off with no wiring headaches. The car has been through hell and high-water and it has not failed yet!

[blackedoutFC3S]

TTT thanks a lot for all the help! That'll make things easier for me to know what to look for. How did you de-pin the wiring? I've been trying to search how to do it but I can't seem to find any good information.

Would these butt connectors be good ones to use for the wiring?
http://order.waytekwire.com/productdetail2/M50/33560/8%20GA%20BUTT%20CONNECTOR/

Ducktape thanks for the site for the connectors I'll have to check it out!

[TitaniumTT]

De-pinning the connector is different for each type of pin. Just need to look at it and figure it out.

I use the uninsulated buttsplice connectors, not the ones with plastic, I hate those.

As opposed to the compouter connectors, why not use a metri-pack, weather pack, deutsch connector? They're designed from the grnd up to be used in an engine bay and they're weather resistant. I use them for bilge pumps where they sit submerged in salt water sometimes and they last just fine. Personally I would rather use a metri pack slathered in dielectric grease than a computer connector with some rtv.... but I've never used them so I can't comment on their durability

[TitaniumTT]

De-pinning the connector is different for each type of pin. Just need to look at it and figure it out.

I use the uninsulated buttsplice connectors, not the ones with plastic, I hate those.

As opposed to the compouter connectors, why not use a metri-pack, weather pack, deutsch connector? They're designed from the grnd up to be used in an engine bay and they're weather resistant. I use them for bilge pumps where they sit submerged in salt water sometimes and they last just fine. Personally I would rather use a metri pack slathered in dielectric grease than a computer connector with some rtv.... but I've never used them so I can't comment on their durability

[ducktape]

The weather pack connectors are great. I highly recommend for heavy-duty stuff, but on a street car they're overkill for most jobs. They also seem a little pricey when you're doing a complete harness, and I could never seem to find a large enough weather pack block to do a single-disconnect for a 15+ wire harness. On the plus-side, you can buy a weather pack kit with a bunch of terms and pins at nearly any auto parts store.

They make universal de-pinning tools BTW. They look sorta like gaper gauses with tubes sticking out.

/Cheap trick: Coffee-stirs work pretty decent as de-pinning tools on some connectors.

[vex]

B and I both know that if you want weather resistance you need some Mil Spec 38999-C III plugs with electro-less nickel plating and RFI grounding with self locking plug.

When everything else could fail; these types of plugs will keep on trucking though the most hazardous environment imaginable.


:squint::suspect::squint:

[TitaniumTT]

B and I both know that if you want weather resistance you need some Mil Spec 38999-C III plugs with electro-less nickel plating and RFI grounding with self locking plug.

When everything else could fail; these types of plugs will keep on trucking though the most hazardous environment imaginable.


:squint::suspect::squint:

Yup yup.... I love them damn things. My FD is going to be riddled with them.... all those silly harnessi routing around the engine bay and under the fenders and shit

The weather pack connectors are great. I highly recommend for heavy-duty stuff, but on a street car they're overkill for most jobs. They also seem a little pricey when you're doing a complete harness, and I could never seem to find a large enough weather pack block to do a single-disconnect for a 15+ wire harness. On the plus-side, you can buy a weather pack kit with a bunch of terms and pins at nearly any auto parts store.

They make universal de-pinning tools BTW. They look sorta like gaper gauses with tubes sticking out.

/Cheap trick: Coffee-stirs work pretty decent as de-pinning tools on some connectors.

I dunno.... OEM's use weatherpack and Metri-pack all over the bay and they're designed to last.

For large pin numbers, weather pack really isn't the way to go, they're too bulky and rated for 20+ amps per pin. Very rarely is there a need for something that heavy. Metri-packs are smaller in size, and smaller in amps... 14A I think. Then there is the Deutch connectors.... for large pin numbers, those are the shit, generally half the size of the weather packs.

[2gslse]

I just read through this thread because I'm trying to remove all the connectors from my harness , but what connectors would be good for the stock wiring? I want to do it right the first time, If I have to spend the extra money that's fine, I just want to make sure I do it right. Still not exactly sure what I'm looking for.

I used some OEM style plugs on my Rx8 ignition coil wiring upgrade and http://www.easternbeaver.com/ was the only place I found the mating plugs he has lots of other types and was east to deal with I had my connectors in less than a week shipped from Japan.

[TitaniumTT]

THAT is a DAMN GOOD resource to know about!

[FerociousP]

I'm at work so I'm not clicking on that link ;)

[My5ABaby]

I'm at work so I'm not clicking on that link ;)

Surprisingly it's actually a safe link. However, it's a terrible name for a company.

[FerociousP]

Surprisingly it's actually a safe link. However, it's a terrible name for a company.

or is it?

[TitaniumTT]

We sub contract out to a REALLY heavy, really unkempt guy who calls his company
Fiberglass
And
Repair
Technology

[vex]

So back on topic: When wiring in multiple coil/igniter's for the ignition system what is the standard practice to wire in the ECU 12V lead?

Should one use a Junction or power distribution block to split the lead into 4 or more other coils, or should one use multiple op-amp's and solder them in?

[TitaniumTT]

How is an old, fat, unshaven, irregular showerer who calls his company FART not on topic? :lol:

Here's what I do.... I use the B/Y wire from the main fuse block, EGI fuse I BELIEVE as the turn on for the relay thaty powers the ECU.... It's also used as the turn on for the radio, the GPS, Sirius etc etc etc etc... Which ever ciruit you use, it needs to be hot when cranking. Wire the relay directly to the bat through a breaker/fuse.

For the ignition system, injectors, fuel pump etc, I use the Fuel Pump Relay option in the Motec. It's adjustable for time on, delay, whatever. This output triggers the relays that turn on power for the injectors, ignition, solenoids, etc. Each has their own fuse and relay.

[vex]

How is an old, fat, unshaven, irregular showerer who calls his company FART not on topic? :lol:

Here's what I do.... I use the B/Y wire from the main fuse block, EGI fuse I BELIEVE as the turn on for the relay thaty powers the ECU.... It's also used as the turn on for the radio, the GPS, Sirius etc etc etc etc... Which ever ciruit you use, it needs to be hot when cranking. Wire the relay directly to the bat through a breaker/fuse.

For the ignition system, injectors, fuel pump etc, I use the Fuel Pump Relay option in the Motec. It's adjustable for time on, delay, whatever. This output triggers the relays that turn on power for the injectors, ignition, solenoids, etc. Each has their own fuse and relay.

lol, you didn't answer the question though. I have 4 coils but only 1 12V wire. Should I use op-amp circuits to ensure each of the 4 wires coming from the op-amp have the same current and voltage to the coils, or should I just use a junction box which ensures equal voltage but current is different? (It's on topic because Op-Amp I would solder in the wires, junction is a 'crimp')

[TitaniumTT]

Stepdown buttconnectors... one 12ish gaughe wire goes in, 4 18 ga wires come out. Crimp and you're done homer.

[vex]

Stepdown buttconnectors... one 12ish gaughe wire goes in, 4 18 ga wires come out. Crimp and you're done homer.

If crimping is acceptable then, I might purchase a weather pack plug. Wire in the ECU lead to the plug and wire in the coils to the other side of the plug giving me a one point disconnect to the coils for both easy inspection and removal.

I'll post my plan in better detail in my ShowOff Thread.

[TitaniumTT]

I wouldn't use weatherpack... personal preference is for metripack. In the case of anything fuel or ignition related though, I always use Deutsch connectors though.

[vex]

I wouldn't use weatherpack... personal preference is for metripack. In the case of anything fuel or ignition related though, I always use Deutsch connectors though.

Is there a particular reason why one plug is better applied than another?

[TitaniumTT]

Weatherpack is bigger and bulkier but they can take more Amps.
Metrpack is smaller, takes less amps buit I like thier pins more.
Deutsch has the best pins, best sealing, and as a bonus you can get them with the extended lip on the back and get some 4:1 heatshrink and have a totally sealed connector.

Amps kinda vary with all of them as you can get a bigger series Metripack to handle more amps.

But, there is nothing on an engine that requires the 25A that the weatherpacks allow.

[vex]

https://www.wirecare.com/deutschdt.asp?selectedDelimiter=6&theSeries=DTM

This makes ordering the plugs easy-peasy.

[TitaniumTT]

Cool.... I go to Batts Racing... I'll compare prices later..

[the spyder]

Where do you guys order your wire from?
I placed a huge order with Polar Wire, which is a machine service/arctic rated wire and crimps. I wanted to try it out after my brother re-wired his motorcycle with it and has been incredibly happy. Its 1/2 the price of TXL rated wire I can find through google, and offers very similar qualities. Same goes for the copper tinned crimps.

I also just bought one of the ebay $70 480 piece 3m heatshrink connector sets. Cant wait to get it in.

[TitaniumTT]

I buy my TXL from Terminal Supply Co
I buy my Tefzel from ProWireUSE
I buy my 3 or 4 strand shielded Tefzel from Pacific Coast Avionics

I only use those heatshrink connectors on boats where they're required. Ither than that, they have a tendencyy to break the heatshrink making the connection pretty much useless.

[Rotary Evolution]

my personal preference is threading back each wire 3/4" and twisting the junction straight into one another, use flux on the joint then heat it with a pencil torch and solder the connection. let it cool off then shrink wrap it with quality shrink wrap.

stock mazda wiring harnesses use sealant tape and crimp connectors, which eventually fail quite regularly in the eastern states causing many very difficult to trace intermittent electrical issues.

[vex]

Look what I found:

http://www.deutschconnector.com/products/deutsch_jiffy_splice_connectors.html

[blackedoutFC3S]

Back from the dead... anybody using the Blue Point crimp tool?

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=hand&item_ID=93213&group_ID=34549&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

Not sure if there's really a difference from one to the other, just curious what people think?

[I love pop-up lights]

TTT looooooves soldering...

[TitaniumTT]

Soldering is for people who are too weak to squeeze crimpers

[Prodigy]

I like soldering cause

1 I think it kinda fun (hate all you want)

2 I almost always run out of the correct size of connectors/crimps etc...


So some of my wiring looks like hillbilly college drop out session... Good intentions, horrible execution....


Once I get more moo-lah I will be investing in an outrageous number of connectors, crimps etc....


J.

[My5ABaby]

Soldering is for people who are too weak to squeeze crimpers
TTT looooooves soldering...


I think we all know TTT has incredibly strong hands and wrists so this must be false...:suspect:

[Rtrhead]

I understand that there may be negative implications considering this one of my first posts here, however Ive had many discussions with engineers (both ME and EE), mechanics, installers and electricians regarding this subject trying ti find the answer myself.

In my experience, those who have pushed too hard in one direction on this topic have never been very experienced or have not appropriately utilized other methods according to application. that is not to say the previous poster are inexperienced or are not knowledgeable.however, to say that one method is better then the other, ignores the fact that electronic/ electric system harness and component design is Application specific.

For Example:
In the AC43.13-1b (FAA acceptable practices for repair and fabrication) I calls for the use of solderless connections as the exclusive method for harness design and repair. however it does state other factors necessary to relieve wire strain, limits of splices, and wire/ insulation strength and proper amperage yield.
Ease of repair and maintenance access is key to the decision to go crimped-only on repairs and inter component harnesses. However, if crimped was really superior, solder would not be on the circuit boards in the instruments and computer systems keeping the plane in the air.

It's also prevalent in the automotive OEM markets, however, upon the countless harnesses Ive dissected, soldered terminals, splices and other things are used throughout automotive history with solderless increasingly becoming the norm for cost-effective, modular solutions.

In other arenas, NASA and other firms like Barco use solder in specific applications in aerospace and aeronautical component and harness design as well as solderless crimping. Check out ISSI or Raychem

In Audio/ video applications (both hi-fi and automotive), many high quality firms such as monster, harmann kardon, DEI and others use soldering and crimping based on cable size, type, and quality level and recommend both methodologies specific to different applications. (ask any quality installer in mobile alarm or stereo and youll see both used in anything from stereos to high end alarms and automation)

As a Master MECP and an A&P I can say that both systems are useful and have no discernible drawbacks in signal quality, flexibility, durability, given they are executed IAW quality supplies and tools and are appropriate to the given application. there have been many studies to support this as well as my experiments with the old scope and meter.

There are many myths and stereotypes on both "sides" of the fence.
For solder, the problems with early circuit boards and communication systems in the 60's and 70's created huge problems until new solders were developed and eliminated this problem (thus the coming age of solid state tech in A/v . EFI, etc.)

For crimp terminals, user error and low cost/qualityproducts over many years has seemed to be the main problem and, speculatively, caused this entire "debate" as solder was the only suitable substitute and therefore deemed "better"

Solder, when properly applied, is extremely durable, has very effective properties.

The same can be said about solderless termination when applied right.


In closing, I feel that the more then qualified people here using a single methodology is more then justifiable given their experience, execution, and application.

However, pitting two time and results honored systems against each other is moot and affront to engineers everywhere. lol

just remember:

Its already been done. someone has data on it somewhere.
now have a beer, burn and crunch wire everywhere.:cheers2:


as for the photo of the crimp connector . later in that forum thread, an uncrimped butt connector filled with solder held just as much weight as the crimp if im not mistaken:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/93426966.jpg

[My5ABaby]

Good info. As I recall though in regards to the boat anchor, I think it was to disprove that crimped connections are weak more so than that they're stronger than soldered.

[RETed]

As a Master MECP and an A&P I can say that both systems are useful and have no discernible drawbacks in signal quality, flexibility, durability, given they are executed IAW quality supplies and tools and are appropriate to the given application. there have been many studies to support this as well as my experiments with the old scope and meter.

Maybe you can answer one of my questions...

I have never had good luck with trying to solder fine-stranded, "OFC" wire - usually speaker wire - for car audio use.
Any significant amount of heat will degrade to the OFC wire to the point where it starts to oxidize and turn green within a few days.
What's the point using this OFC wire if it's going to oxidize, right?
Do I need to sit there for hours with a 5-watt pencil iron just to solder this correctly?
Usually, I'm impatient about wiring the car up, so I don't like to waste time like that.
I end up crimping all OFC wire connections nowadays.


-Ted

[Madaz]

In most cases crimping will suffice however when the voltage is low (under 24V) and/or when current is low (under 500mA) I would always recommend soldering.

[Whizbang]

for the rally car, guys avoid solder like the plague. Vibrations are extreme. Small crimp connections with some shrink tube over top worked wonderfully for me. Or just run new wire all the way to pins at the connectors...

[PSI]

Crimp every time! Years ago I would have said solder, until I wired a 20B into an aircraft and was educated in no uncertain terms by those in the aviation industry. This was reinforced recently when I had a road race engine come back due to a loss of all oil pressure - as it turned out the engine was perfect but the terminal soldered to the wire on the pressure sensor, and shared by the gauge/idiot light/ecu had become corroded from the flux and lost continuity half way through a race, after being soldered 2 years and many race meetings earlier! It was not the terminal itself, but the connection between the terminal and the wire. I guess the flux turned into an insulator over time. A decent pull on the terminal broke the wire clean off.

[knonfs]

What tool are you guys using to crimp butt connectors, and which butt connectors do you guys use?

I have a snap on crimping tool, but the locally available butt conectors are not solid, so when you crimp them, they then to get smashed flat, which makes for a FUGLY termination.

[My5ABaby]

I use these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/762/=m6u2jz

On that link they're the (G) Noninsulated . Part numbers 7227K32-34. I heat shrink over that. They're barely thicker than the wiring was with the plastic shielding around it.

[Mazdabater]

I tried using mil spec environmental splices in my car once, normal wire can't handle the heat to melt the sealant. Works good in the aircraft wire though.

[Monkman33]

I use crimps for connectors. I got ahold of lots of deutsch connectors and a crimper a while back. But I solder inline splices and use small zip ties over a protective wrap for stress relief (not that it should need it lol)

I have found that either will work when done properly. And a harness will last as long as it is protected and routed properly.

There is always a way to optimize for every last hundredth of a percentage of performance. However, life is a nalancing act of cost and labor versus time and money available versus results. If your results are satisfactory and it doesn't break your bank or require too much time, then I would call it successful. Regardless of which school of thought you used.

[knonfs]

I use these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/762/=m6u2jz

On that link they're the (G) Noninsulated . Part numbers 7227K32-34. I heat shrink over that. They're barely thicker than the wiring was with the plastic shielding around it.


Thanks for the link!

I found them on delcity, for somewhat cheaper!

[RETed]

Since people think this is a joke, and I'm not in a good mood right now, the thread is getting chopped.

I don't see anything new and useful being offered from certain individuals.
Going into ad nauseum about FC harness is a waste of time...
The car is hitting almost 30 years; most mass-produced automobiles useful service life does not exceed 10 years.
If you cannot apply the logic, you need to go back and finish high school.

Oh, and if you can't get it into your little brain of yours, I'm a mod in this section.
Keep it up and further disciplinary action is around the corner - that's a PROMISE.


-Ted

[Mutaku]

Just to throw in my two cents. I also work aircraft maintenance and the only wires that we have to solder connectors for is liquid quantity indicating. That's only because of the way it measures (Capacitance). That said Unless you're dealing with some sort of precise measurement a crimp connection is fine.

[TitaniumTT]

Dealing with a high strung rotary where precise fuel and ignition requirements are required..... I can show you a datalog of an E6X that blew an engine because of faulty wiring.... I have a meecrowrech on the dyno right now that keeps dropping its ignition signal, the owner literally said, just jiggle it around and it'll work... really? And you want me to tune this thing to 24psi with an ECU that is known to have trigger issues... I'm just waiting for this amount of fun....

[Mutaku]

Dealing with a high strung rotary where precise fuel and ignition requirements are required..... I can show you a datalog of an E6X that blew an engine because of faulty wiring.... I have a meecrowrech on the dyno right now that keeps dropping its ignition signal, the owner literally said, just jiggle it around and it'll work... really? And you want me to tune this thing to 24psi with an ECU that is known to have trigger issues... I'm just waiting for this amount of fun....

That is definitely not a crimp or solder issue. Its more of an L2Wire issue...

[Rotary Evolution]

chop out the original connectors and put in new ones, problem solved.

[RICE RACING]

Microwreck !

#1 in Lebanon :biggthumpup:

[TitaniumTT]

That is definitely not a crimp or solder issue. Its more of an L2Wire issue...

Thank you, I'm making a point, it's a solder joint on the board issue... my point being, a bad trigger signal can kill an engine, seen it many times, so why chance things is what I'm getting at

chop out the original connectors and put in new ones, problem solved.

Wrong
Stand meecrowreck up in field
Shoot with various Kimbers, HK's and Saiga's
Throw remaining bits in trash
Problem solved

Microwreck !

#1 in Lebanon :biggthumpup:

Fucking hate those stupid boxes.... good for ITS n/a race cars and that's about it....

[Rotary Evolution]

they're bad but they're not THAT bad...

[Mutaku]

Thank you, I'm making a point, it's a solder joint on the board issue... my point being, a bad trigger signal can kill an engine, seen it many times, so why chance things is what I'm getting at



Wrong
Stand meecrowreck up in field
Shoot with various Kimbers, HK's and Saiga's
Throw remaining bits in trash
Problem solved



Fucking hate those stupid boxes.... good for ITS n/a race cars and that's about it....


I get what your getting at. What it really comes down to is doing things right with the tools required. Honestly in a car situation I don't see anything that crimps can't take care of ;-P

[TitaniumTT]

they're bad but they're not THAT bad...

Use the ECU that I learned on and come back and talk to me

I get what your getting at. What it really comes down to is doing things right with the tools required. Honestly in a car situation I don't see anything that crimps can't take care of ;-P

I agree, which is why I only crimp

[Rotary Evolution]

Use the ECU that I learned on and come back and talk to me


it's a basic ECU, easy to setup and just as quick to tune. i haven't seen one fail and many have run reliably for many many years that i installed and tuned.

the downside is the nickel and diming, firmwared anything into the units, the retarded narrowband input factory option and the older than time dongle w/o write to disc(supposedly they did step into the 20th century recently with the new version).

does it work? yes, very well.
is it the best ECU out there now? fuck no. though it's only been recently that some other ECUs are giving them a hard time about being the cheapest ECU still on the market(no, i still don't consider MS a comparable option either even though it is cheaper, or that Rtek garbage).

and it depends on which car you are installing it on and whether you care about re-using 20-25 year old wiring. most of the cars i work on have almost zero realistic plug-n-play options. though it doesn't bother me much, because building a high performance car with the original harness always leaves me a little uneasy.

[Mutaku]

Use the ECU that I learned on and come back and talk to me



I agree, which is why I only crimp

I usually just say I crimp on aircraft so you should just crimp your car. If I go any deeper people get all retarded lol

[TitaniumTT]

Got a car on the dyno that just dropped a tach signal

ZOMGWTFBBAYGTBKMNFW!!!!!! A BROKEN SOLDER JOINT!!!!!

Gonna go crimp that shit together

[Rotary Evolution]

i had one a few days ago, bad crimp junction.

i replaced the 25 year old connector and crimps(with shortened solid wires to the new connector), but that's just me. and don't be one of those donks who hard wires the CAS to the ECU...(seen it done plenty on FCs, along with ignition wiring)

if you think it bothers me that you found a bad solder joint, good luck with that. i've seen every sort of wire repair fail(improperly done). yet i haven't had any cars come back.

[RICE RACING]

Fuck! tuned a car last night and its ECU case was in what look like a gold colored Aluminum window frame extrusion and the end were held on with roofing screws!!!!

WTF!

[RICE RACING]

i've seen every sort of wire repair fail(improperly done). yet i haven't had any cars come back.

Now imagine if you were Howard Coleman or Brian D Cain, you would have no cars come back or leave for that matter! :rofl:

Hard to have any wiring failures when the motors fail just after the starter motor engages the flywheel ring gear LOL.

[Rotary Evolution]

well i did just have one leave today that was here for a year and a half.. i felt like taking a sledge hammer to that car many times, especially when i found the ground strap from the battery loose, burned and bolted to a painted chassis surface.

don't ask, that car was a wiring nightmare and i should have told him to pick it up long ago. shitty part is it ran fine until under full load, then shit would start crapping out erratically. sometimes you feel like it's your own damn fault for not checking the idiocy factor of others.