Oil injection hole... Put to good use?

[sen2two]

I just finished up my jig for doing peripheral ports (or semi-PP, and the exhaust too). I made it so I can adjust the jig to do a few different degrees of entry for the P-Port. I have a junk housing i will test it out on first to check for any vibration. It's heavy duty and I doubt will have any problems.

Any way, I was looking at it and noticed I can easily modify it a bit more to drill/mill/tap ect. where the oil metering jets would normally be. I normally do not run the stock OMP anyway, and usually use a bolt to block these off.

I then got an idea to put it to some kind of use. Maybe this could be a spot for a 3rd spark plug like they did back in the day for racing. Or even an extra fuel injector. Maybe a spot to inject meth. Not for cooling obviously since it will not cool anything if injected there.

Ideas? worthwhile? or just leave it the hell alone?

[RETed]

Spark plug?
Was that a typo?
Not a good idea...


-Ted

[sen2two]

Seen a bunch of old pictures of it being done. One was by RE Amemiya.

Here's one by JHB (picture on right): http://jhbperformance.com/downloads/jhb-tech06racingmods.pdf

It's been done a lot...

[NoDOHC]

The spark plug hole has to go on the compression side of the housing.

Take a second look at that housing in the picture, you will see that I mean. the one on the right is a spark plug addition, on the left, P-port

If you move the P-port up that high, you will be missing any advantage that the P-port would give.

Methanol would be cooling the intake charge if injected there, which is what you want.

Out of curiousity, why do you always remove stock OMP?

[sen2two]

lol... My bad. I was having a dumb moment about the spark plug thing.

I always remove the stock OMP because I always use pre-mix. Injecting oil into the combustion cycle is just a band aid. Not really a good idea to do.

[Pete_89T2]

I always remove the stock OMP because I always use pre-mix. Injecting oil into the combustion cycle is just a band aid. Not really a good idea to do.

Not to get into the premix vs. OMP debate, but when you run premix thru the fuel injectors, aren't you still injecting oil into the combustion cycle, just as the stock OMP system does? Granted different lubes, and slightly different entrance points into the chamber, but otherwise I don't understand the point your making. Why is this not a good idea?

[sen2two]

It always turns into a debate...

2 stroke oil is different than motor oil.

2 cycle oil also has a much lower ash content. This lower ash content is necessary to minimize deposits of sludge and grit that form if there is ash present in the oil which is burned in the engine’s combustion chamber.

[2gslse]

Put N2O nozzles in there!!

[sen2two]

So any thoughts about adding a fuel injector there. Maybe block off the original primary position, and use this location as my primary injector position?

[88turboii]

direct injection ftw do iiit

[RETed]

So any thoughts about adding a fuel injector there. Maybe block off the original primary position, and use this location as my primary injector position?

Not a good idea...

Fuel injectors are positioned in (narrow) intake passages to take advantage of the higher intake velocities.
You stuff the fuel injectors into the rotor housings, and you lose a lot of the atomization due to the inferior intake velocity.


-Ted

[sen2two]

Very true.

[hybrid G]

How about adding water or methanol injection nozzels, to cool the intake charge ?

[sen2two]

Thought about that, but I believe that meth injection works better as a chemical coolant when injected earlier in the air stream to better atomize and remove the heat.

Although I have no idea if that is true. Just a guess I am making. If anyone here has more insight, as if this is a "better" place to inject meth... Speak up!

[speedjunkie]

It always turns into a debate...

2 stroke oil is different than motor oil.

2 cycle oil also has a much lower ash content. This lower ash content is necessary to minimize deposits of sludge and grit that form if there is ash present in the oil which is burned in the engine’s combustion chamber.

Both of which is why I run the OMP adapter. But that is neither here nor there in this discussion lol.

[Rotary Related]

I'm sorry I just can't let the oil injection thing slide anymore.

Go look up the term "specific gravity" in reguards to liquids. Then tell me if you think oil should be injected through fuel injectors. Even different fuels flow at different rates though the same injector. I doubt oil gets through very easily. I'd love to see how much oil is just in people's fuel tanks after premixing for long periods of time. I would guess there is more oil then there should be as far as the "magic" ratio goes. Just use the OMP they work fine. Hell even my electronic one works fine all the time. Yes I've checked it multiple times to be sure.

I'm sorry everyone's assumption that the OMPs don't work right is incorrect.

I doubt it's worth mentioning on a rotary but oil de-octanes fuel pretty good as well. You want as little as possible to get the lubrication done.


A good use for the oil injector hole is to hold an oil injector. If you don't like that answer then use it to inject meth, N2O, water, propane, LPG, HHO, straight hydrogen or whatever other fuel type you like. Yes water can be used as well. Methenol will cool the charge even that close to the combustion.

Sorry for this outburst I hate premixing.

[FC Zach]

I'm sorry I just can't let the oil injection thing slide anymore.

Go look up the term "specific gravity" in reguards to liquids. Then tell me if you think oil should be injected through fuel injectors. Even different fuels flow at different rates though the same injector. I doubt oil gets through very easily.

This may be true but I dont have to worry about that since I'm carbed.

I'd love to see how much oil is just in people's fuel tanks after premixing for long periods of time. I would guess there is more oil then there should be as far as the "magic" ratio goes.

Not true, well at least for me. I've been pre-mixing since I built my motor in 04 and have checked my tank periodically in between different fuel delivery modifications I have done and have specifically looked for just that.

Just use the OMP they work fine. Hell even my electronic one works fine all the time. Yes I've checked it multiple times to be sure.

Yes the OMPs may rarely fail but there are other reasons why some pre-mix. A lot of people use both, one reason being lack of lubrication during deceleration. Also it is not uncommon for electronic OMPs to fail without warning, Ive seen it. I would venture to say that a lot of S5 & 6 owners do it for peace of mind.

I'm sorry everyone's assumption that the OMPs don't work right is incorrect.

I have a working OMP, I just dont like the idea of injecting motor oil into the combustion chamber, which is why I modified mine to accept 2-stroke. I still pre-mix too.

I doubt it's worth mentioning on a rotary but oil de-octanes fuel pretty good as well. You want as little as possible to get the lubrication done.


A good use for the oil injector hole is to hold an oil injector. If you don't like that answer then use it to inject meth, N2O, water, propane, LPG, HHO, straight hydrogen or whatever other fuel type you like. Yes water can be used as well. Methenol will cool the charge even that close to the combustion.

Sorry for this outburst I hate premixing.

I agree with you on this, I just want to state that there are reasons why some either delete OMPs or add to the tank alongside a working OMP

[Rotary Related]

I use the OMP and a rotary aviation adapter to run 2 stroke as well. Why bother with the tank? What kind of decelerating do you do? The pedal on the right makes you go fast. The middle pedal is just a suggestion you don't have to use it lol!!!

If your carbed then specific gravity probably won't apply but most people are fuel injected and do that which makes no sense. I think it's a hold over from the carbed days.

Have you ever run across any info involving rotary's and de-octaning fuel due to oil? I haven't yet but it can make or break a piston motor. Poor little pistons always trying to explode.....that's cute lol! I do know it's really hard to get detonation on NA Rotaries so maybe the oil de-octaning just falls in the category and does hardly ever occur.

How about hp tests? I wonder at what point you lose hp due to exsessive oil? It probably has never been tested for.

[FC Zach]

I use the OMP and a rotary aviation adapter to run 2 stroke as well. Why bother with the tank? What kind of decelerating do you do? The pedal on the right makes you go fast. The middle pedal is just a suggestion you don't have to use it lol!!! LOL, downshifting and any other closed throttle condition where the RPMs are still above idle, very minimal wear (if any) but its just a concern I have. I dont race BTW, just a very spirited driver :driving:

If your carbed then specific gravity probably won't apply but most people are fuel injected and do that which makes no sense. I think it's a hold over from the carbed days.

Have you ever run across any info involving rotary's and de-octaning fuel due to oil? I haven't yet but it can make or break a piston motor. Poor little pistons always trying to explode.....that's cute lol! I'd say if any probably very minimal but I'm curious to know as well. I do know it's really hard to get detonation on NA Rotaries so maybe the oil de-octaning just falls in the category and does hardly ever occur.

How about hp tests? I wonder at what point you lose hp due to exsessive oil? It probably has never been tested for.
I'd say as long as the ratio isn't as high as a WeedEater's 40:1 it would go unnoticed :dunno:

:ugh2:

[RETed]

Go look up the term "specific gravity" in reguards to liquids. Then tell me if you think oil should be injected through fuel injectors. Even different fuels flow at different rates though the same injector. I doubt oil gets through very easily. I'd love to see how much oil is just in people's fuel tanks after premixing for long periods of time. I would guess there is more oil then there should be as far as the "magic" ratio goes. Just use the OMP they work fine. Hell even my electronic one works fine all the time. Yes I've checked it multiple times to be sure.
PREMIX is designed to be mixed with gasoline.
For the record, I have no measured specific gravity of clean gasoline versus gasoline + premix, but I doubt it has significant affect on it enough to throw off fuel mixtures.
I run a Haltech so I don't care - I can adjust my fuel delivery at any time with relative ease.
Why don't we all convert to standalone EMS' and this would not be a problem.
Prior to the Haltech E8 going in, I was running a rechipped ECU with no problems.
If you're worried about premix and suspension in gas...
I've had my car sitting for 2 years+ at one point; the premix was still fully mixed and suspensed in the gas tank.
In fact, the car started, ran, and almost 300 miles from Las Vegas, NV to Los Angeles, CA, once a new battery and alternator was installed.

The "magic" ratio has been scientifically concluded from Mazda.
It's all written up in SAE papers.

No one said the stock oil injectors doesn't work.
My point is that there's a better way.


I'm sorry everyone's assumption that the OMPs don't work right is incorrect.
Read above.


I doubt it's worth mentioning on a rotary but oil de-octanes fuel pretty good as well. You want as little as possible to get the lubrication done.
Premix is DESIGNED to be burned.
Engine motor oil isn't.
You just farted on yourself.


Sorry for this outburst I hate premixing.
You should've just said that in the first place and leave it at that.
You trying to argue your point makes you look stupid.


-Ted

[My5ABaby]

My car has also sat for long periods with no noticable difference in the premix. I've also been premixing for 8 years and the premix hasn't magically built up in the tank.

You just farted on yourself.

-Ted:rofl:

[RETed]

Sorry, Rotary Related is an idiot.

He has no idea what "offset" is: http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=1828

This he claimed the 3-stage intake system on an RX-8 engine is the same as the VDI on a Kouki FC non-turbo: http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=13146

Now he's spewing so much bullshit in this thread, isn't it against the rules to be doing this crap?


-Ted

[NoDOHC]

I don't know that the term 'idiot' was entirely deserved...

Either way, I broke my OMP lines on my '86 about 5 years ago. This resulted in me running premix for 5 years. I pulled my tank down a few months back and had no oil residue in it at all (I did have some water though). I do run the OMP now (got new lines) due to my desire to do DOD (Displacement On Demand) at a later date.

Bear in mind that all the bumps on the road and the fuel pump mix the oil and gas in the tank very well. The fuel in the line is moving too quickly to settle out. Besides that- it takes several years for two-cycle oil to settle out of gas in a can.

As to the no injection on decel. The OMP does not inject very much on decel either (the injection quantity is throttle-related - at least on an S4).

[ducktape]

Wow, really? Didn't know there was such a thing as an OMP purist.

I remember once I premixed way too heavily in a stock TII. It ran like ass and smoked like a freight train until I diluted it, but was fine after that.

It's simple really; An OMP can fail catastrophically, premix cannot.

[mazpower]

My 2 cents...

All I know is every engine I've taken apart that runs premix always looks a little better than an OMP injected system, especially as more time passes between builds. :dunno: Less gunk in the seals and other build-up.

Then of course this might be from premix being used instead of dirty engine oil. Brian's engine which uses the OMP to inject premix looked just like my engines that run premix exclusively. Modern premix is designed to be delivered with fuel through injectors. I just don't get what Rotary Related is worried about.

[My5ABaby]

I've overpremixed before and it smokes a little but I didn't notice a difference in performance.

[Rotary Related]

Wow, really? Didn't know there was such a thing as an OMP purist.

I remember once I premixed way too heavily in a stock TII. It ran like ass and smoked like a freight train until I diluted it, but was fine after that.

It's simple really; An OMP can fail catastrophically, premix cannot.

Read post #18 I'm not a purist I use two stroke just like you but use the OMP to dictate the proper amount. I don't add it to the fuel tank as I don't believe it gets metered correctly that way. I have a rotary aviaton adapter. I don't know how much clearer that could be.

[TitaniumTT]

Funny, I bought a 'vert over the summer that had the OMP blocked off. It had been sitting for over 3 years.
The car I bought was sitting in the garage untouched for 3 years.
The last time the car moved was 3 years ago.
The last time the gas was sloshed around was 3 years ago.
The oil is still suspended. The tank has no sludge in the bottom of it. In fact, the pre-mix helped prevent the tank from rotting away.

There are no ill effects from pre-mixing in the tank. I've seen 4 micron filters not get clogged from pre-mix. When it's mixed in with the gas, it's going to get injected.

FWIW I run the RA adapter injecting some Idemitsu oil, and I pre-mix the same oil in the tank at a ratio of 512:1... or a 1/4 oz of oil per gallon of gas.

[Rotary Related]

Sorry, Rotary Related is an idiot.

He has no idea what "offset" is: http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=1828

This he claimed the 3-stage intake system on an RX-8 engine is the same as the VDI on a Kouki FC non-turbo: http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=13146

Now he's spewing so much bullshit in this thread, isn't it against the rules to be doing this crap?


-Ted

You can disagree with me on the wheel offset topic all you want that's your right but I don't think your in your "rights" to say I'm and idiot or my website sucks or whatever you said. All because your mad about not agreeing with my viewpoint. It's certainly not right for you to post this message that you have posted. Nor is it right that everyone bandwagons on with you and just agrees without thinking of what they are saying.

Here's some info: The Renesis uses the same devices as the kouki as you put it (Series 5 RX-7) engine, plus one change the SSV. I've explained it in the other thread where "that" conversation is taking place. It's not up for speculation that's what it is and how it works. so how is that misleading? or as you so eloquently put it "spewing bullshit". It is what it is. I'm sorry if you don't understand how it works or have one that's apart in your garage so you can look at it and see how it works. I'm not gonna say don't reply if you don't know the answer because that's someting you would do.

I didn't say mixing oil with the fuel in the gas tank doesn't work I just don't see the point when Mazda has already gave you a device for doing so. I am against using the engine's oil that's silly, but also the only option they could logically used from a factory stand point. Who would buy a car that has to have something poured into the fuel tank or an extra tank under the hood of a car every few thousand miles or at every fill up? Probably less than 1% of the earth's population that's who.

A word on specific gravity:

I have seen in person in real life not on the internet the repercussions of specific gravity. A friend of mine lost a engine due to changing fuel BRANDS not fuel types or octanes. Going from one 110 octane fuel to another brand. The engine destroyed itself in short order. 1 day of that fuel and it was over. Come to find out the specific gravity of that fuel was quite a bit different than the one he was tuned for. Yes this car was at the ragged edge of it's tune so I admit it's a bit of a stretch in comparison but it shows the consequences. This is when I learned about this topic. Think of the specific gravity of a liquid as the weight/size of the molecules. Basically fatter ones don't fit through as easy so there's less fuel at a given load and RPM so the engine destroyed itself.

Surely the oil suspended in the fuel of a premixed rotary falls in the same category. Although it may not matter on a rotary engine it still obeys the laws of physics just like a piston engine. Rotaries don't use a different type of special injector so there's no arguing this. It's a real life effect. Whether or not it matters on rotaries I don't know but its also the reason I don't believe in putting oil in my fuel tank. I just don't know what the exact outcome actually is so I don't mess with it. Which is why I don't condone people telling others to do it. If they want to do it then by all means it's your vehicle and your money do what you want. I expect the same respect for my view in return.

I reviewed this post and kind of came off as a my way or the highway guy when in fact I was trying to add some intelligent reasoning of why he may want to look into it before doing it. I apologize for any dickheadedness <just made up that word lol

[NoDOHC]

Please don't take offense from RETed, he is a very knowledgeable and intelligent member of the community and I think that he really cares about the rotary community. I think this is why he is so fast to jump on what he sees as misinformation. I know that he comes across a little bluntly at times, but I think that he means no harm by it.

Some day he will stop attacking the person that has the idea that he disagrees with and start attacking the idea - until then, please understand that it is his way of disagreeing and I don't think that he means to offend.

(Please feel free to agree with this yourself RETed - I don't purport to speak for you).

[Rotary Related]

I'm sure he is a good member. I just think his method was a bit much is all.

Then the topic got way off somehow and I was supposedly using a factory OMP setup? It's crazy in here. Crazy I tell ya.



We could say this: Any oil injection method is fine, if you are fine with it yourself and it's two stroke not four stroke oil.

[NoDOHC]

I think that it is very important to have discussions about what works and what doesn't, what each of us has found, reasons that we do things, theories on why Mazda did things, deeper engine or suspension theory, etc.

It is also important that we don't pass inaccurate information on because someone may read it and take it as fact.

For this reason, it is good to state what you have found, what you do and why you do it.

As long as we keep these pieces of information as pieces of information and debate in a mature and intelligent fashion, debate is good, as it allows posterity to see both sides of the issue.

[RETed]

You can disagree with me on the wheel offset topic all you want that's your right but I don't think your in your "rights" to say I'm and idiot or my website sucks or whatever you said. All because your mad about not agreeing with my viewpoint. It's certainly not right for you to post this message that you have posted. Nor is it right that everyone bandwagons on with you and just agrees without thinking of what they are saying.
Last time I checked, this was the U.S. of A.
Last time I checked, free speech was protected under the constitution - see 1st Amendment.
Now, as long as I don't break any rules in this particular forum, I have every right to criticize you and your website.
The same goes for your retort on my comments - it works both ways.
This ends the lesson on what I can and cannot say.


I didn't say mixing oil with the fuel in the gas tank doesn't work I just don't see the point when Mazda has already gave you a device for doing so. I am against using the engine's oil that's silly, but also the only option they could logically used from a factory stand point. Who would buy a car that has to have something poured into the fuel tank or an extra tank under the hood of a car every few thousand miles or at every fill up? Probably less than 1% of the earth's population that's who.
Now begins the argument of stock versus modified...
If we were all satisfied with how the car came stock because it "worked okay", then we would never modify our cars.
I'm pretty sure we can agree this is not the case.
Why do we modify our suspensions?
Why do we change out turbos (for those who have turbos or what to add one on)?
Why do we port our engines?
And the list goes on...
It's an inherent want to make things BETTER - if you can't understand that concept, I'm wasting my time here.
BTW, I never inferred that you thought premixing didn't work.
I inferred you knocked premixing due to it's "inferior" delivery into the engine through BAD CONCLUSIONS (i.e. problems flowing through fuel injectors, etc.)

Mazda went with the their OMP system exactly as the same conclusion as you have - most consumers were not willing to deal with another consumable when it comes to automobile maintenance.
The OMP using engine motor oil is a compromise.
Mazda went with premixing on their winning LeMans car and all their top-tier racing rotary engines due to it's superior internal lubricating properties.
This is documented in SAE papers.


A word on specific gravity:

I have seen in person in real life not on the internet the repercussions of specific gravity. A friend of mine lost a engine due to changing fuel BRANDS not fuel types or octanes. Going from one 110 octane fuel to another brand. The engine destroyed itself in short order. 1 day of that fuel and it was over. Come to find out the specific gravity of that fuel was quite a bit different than the one he was tuned for. Yes this car was at the ragged edge of it's tune so I admit it's a bit of a stretch in comparison but it shows the consequences. This is when I learned about this topic. Think of the specific gravity of a liquid as the weight/size of the molecules. Basically fatter ones don't fit through as easy so there's less fuel at a given load and RPM so the engine destroyed itself.
A word about this person:
He's a fucking idiot.
Anyone who messes with LEADED GAS and doesn't know to retune for LEADED GAS is a fucking idiot, even different brands of the same octane rating.
LEADED GAS manufacturers (i.e. VP, CAM2, Shell, etc.) all post SPECIFIC GRAVITY specs on their fuels for a reason.
If *I* were messing with leaded gas, I would be checking spark plugs on every run, period, no excuse - even with SAME BRAND and SAME OCTANE fuel but DIFFERENT CONTAINERS.
Old school racers used to tell me that VP had quality control problems, and CAM2 was better - I'd still be keeping an eye on AFR's on EVERY RUN.
At this level of the game, this is what you're SUPPOSED to be doing.
You mentioned "ragged tune" - even more support he's a FUCKING IDIOT.
Did I mention he's a FUCKING IDIOT?

Since you're giving a lesson on specific gravity, let me bring up the exact definition of "specific gravity" and not "think" what it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_gravity

You got "weight" right, but "size" does not necessarily applies here.
"Mass" is the correct term.
"Density" is also the correct term to use here.
Larger "size" does not necessarily mean higher "weight" - if you can't figure that out, you need to go look up "molecular weight".
I didn't take two semester of regular chemistry, two semesters of organic chemistry, and three semesters of physics for nothing in college...

Surely the oil suspended in the fuel of a premixed rotary falls in the same category. Although it may not matter on a rotary engine it still obeys the laws of physics just like a piston engine. Rotaries don't use a different type of special injector so there's no arguing this. It's a real life effect. Whether or not it matters on rotaries I don't know but its also the reason I don't believe in putting oil in my fuel tank. I just don't know what the exact outcome actually is so I don't mess with it. Which is why I don't condone people telling others to do it. If they want to do it then by all means it's your vehicle and your money do what you want. I expect the same respect for my view in return.
Reread what I said...
I didn't say there was no difference in specific gravity.
I DID SAY that I bet this difference in specific gravity is NOT SIGNIFICANT (to affect fuel flowing through fuel injectors).
The burden of proof also falls on you to prove me wrong as much as you want to prove me wrong.

MY EXPERIENCE shows that premixing doesn't have all the problems you have described.
5+ years of premixing with a reprogrammed ECU
5+ years of premixing with a Haltech E8
A total of over a decade of premixing with no problems in terms of fuel delivery or direct problems of the premix to any of the stock components.
THIS is what I base my replies on - my direct experience.


-Ted