Defined Autoworks 523whp 35r!!

[FDwarrior]

Ok, where to start? I went to the dyno two weeks ago to tune my car for an autocross. I had no number's in mind for making power, I just wanted a tune. Logan at Defined Autoworks built and tuned this car, here is what happened. We did many pulls with these numbers and checked the dyno, its a dynapak as well. We also only had 93 in the car it has been running 93 since. I had a dirty k&N on the car, the whole time (4in). I also had 2 year old plugs in the car from my work bench. No nos, no tricks just whats here.

Here is the car, a rotary powered s14 beast

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x112/EfiniRX7/IMG_3112.jpg

peak power ( you can see the spike to 16 pounds then it holds 14 pounds to redline)

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/fd20na/523Rwhp13b-re-w.jpg

peak torque

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/fd20na/384Rwtq13b-re-w.jpg


We were stunned, I don't think there has been a 2 rotor with just a half bridge and regular old 35r make this power. I will provide more detailed specs further down. The 35r is just a dual bb precision, NOT a billet wheel.

Here are the engine specs

13b-rew block and irons
13b-re port runners
D.A circuit port on the primaries
D.A half bridge on secondaries
D.A turbo exhaust port
Fd 9.0:1 rotors, balanced and clearanced.
3mm Apex seals
solid corner seals
New FC rotor housings
Coolant jacket modifications
race rotor bearings
high pressure oil reg
FC front cover
13b-re intake manifold

Turbo

1.00 divided turbine
p-trim wheel, standard wheel
.70 compressor housing

Electromotive Tec GT
Inductive coils
S4 Fc waterpump
Racing beat front pulley
Mazda comp waterpump pulley

Engine bay

Engine bay pics. The engine placement is excellent in the chassis. The front of the engine is even with the shock towers. The top of the block is about half way up on the towers. The intake is pretty tall so it looks like the engine sits high. The engine was initially designed to use a dry sump system, so the bottom of the block basically sits on the subframe. The subframe was modified and a custom oil pan was built by defined instead of using a dry sump. The placement of the engine did not have to move due to subframe modification. Everything was built by defined. The car was at Gordon's meet two years ago.

Im bad at taking pics, but you get the idea.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x112/EfiniRX7/IMG_3154.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x112/EfiniRX7/IMG_3148.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x112/EfiniRX7/IMG_3143.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x112/EfiniRX7/IMG_3140.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x112/EfiniRX7/IMG_3134.jpg

We are going to go back with race gas and play with the timing, the timing is conservative. I will update the thread with the new results.

[RotorDad]

Good numbers for a pump gas tune.

[FDwarrior]

Good numbers for a pump gas tune.

To my knowledge no one has ever made these numbers on a regular 35r, with a 2 rotor. I can't wait to see what it does on race gas with more aggressive timing, along with good plugs.

[lh6601]

I heard of sr swaps into 7's but never rotary into s chassis cars. SO sick. Great numbers too.

[RICE RACING]

What boost pressure?
can you please post the sheet that lists the TCF value :seeya:

Very nice set up, seen you post this on RX7club, pitty those idiots have no idea about rotaries or cars (rx72c = dumbarse of the decade!) :rofl:

[RICE RACING]

To my knowledge no one has ever made these numbers on a regular 35r, with a 2 rotor. I can't wait to see what it does on race gas with more aggressive timing, along with good plugs.

I know a bloke who makes (are you sitting down!) 535rwhp through tires (not hubs) on a dyno dynamics (see my site where I talk about this and show details *not just internet BS comments*). This is on a regular GT35R :bigear: and a street port!

Not everyone posts their shit on the net :lol: so you or others dont know about it :)

The dynapack reads allot lower than a dyno dynamics, I went from one to the other on the same day and there was over 30rwkw or 40+rwhp loss, this is mostly due to the slip rate of the tire which you are not dealing with when you take them off and bolt directly to the hubs.

BTW your car is awesome, not a worlds first for a 35r on a 2 rotor but its something to be very proud of :drool5:

[TitaniumTT]

Indeed! I love how most people are looking for 400rwhp out of a 35R thinking it's the best you can do. Just like "350 is the highest you'll get out of twins @ 15psi"

It's amazing what these things can do when they're in the hands of someone who know's what they're doing :cough-you watching BDC, HC, rx7cwhatever your name is:

[FDwarrior]

I know a bloke who makes (are you sitting down!) 535rwhp through tires (not hubs) on a dyno dynamics (see my site where I talk about this and show details *not just internet BS comments*). This is on a regular GT35R :bigear: and a street port!

Not everyone posts their shit on the net :lol: so you or others dont know about it :)

The dynapack reads allot lower than a dyno dynamics, I went from one to the other on the same day and there was over 30rwkw or 40+rwhp loss, this is mostly due to the slip rate of the tire which you are not dealing with when you take them off and bolt directly to the hubs.

BTW your car is awesome, not a worlds first for a 35r on a 2 rotor but its something to be very proud of :drool5:

I think that's awesome. Im not some one who hates on some one else's success. I love the fact that some people are still able to innovate and rewrite the rules on regular convention. Im not done though, we still have allot more power to make by just messing with the timing, and playing with the waste gate. The 523 was just what the car made on our baseline. I had Logan smooth out the tune so I could auto cross it that weekend. I also want to make an exhaust manifold. The manifold on it is just a mass produced china mani. I have inconel that Im going to use. I will also get the sheet for the tcf values. The dyno we use is packed most of the time. When we get another session, I will update the thread.

I also rarely post anything about my cars on the net. I decided to post this to promote business for Defined Autoworks. As you can probably tell Im terrible at making big posts.

[FDwarrior]

Here is a burn-out vid. We were bored, in the middle of hick town usa, and one car a day goes down this road if your lucky. It's not much of a burnout but you can hear the spark cut only rev limiter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHDX78z5V6s

[RotorDad]

GT35r's are very capable turbos, a few friends of mine use them. A totally different animal, but we made 601 awhp on a stock bottom end 4G63.(Dynojet)

[FDwarrior]

GT35r's are very capable turbos, a few friends of mine use them. A totally different animal, but we made 601 awhp on a stock bottom end 4G63.(Dynojet)

Sounds about right. I know 4g63's can handle some power, is it an evo engine or older 4g. It would be nice if rotaries were as efficient at using there exhaust charge as a piston engine, nothing a bigger turbo can't fix tough:biggthumpup:

[RotorDad]

It's an older 6 bolt 4G63. He just ordered pistons & rods, to go with his new 67mm turbo. I have been trying to get him to do a RX7 when get the power he wants out of the Eclispe. :) What are your goals for the 240?

[FDwarrior]

^ Really I was only going for around 400-460 power wise. Im going to use the 240 for time attack stuff, and run grass roots racing with it. There are a couple of scca classes my car will fit in, and emra has enduro's. EMRA also has sprint races. I am going to come up with a water injection system using the electramotive to control it. The enduro's are only 3 hour and 4 hour races. Trying to do an endurance race with a turbo rotary is fighting an up hill battle. I think with a bullet proof water injection system it can be done. I would love to travel out west and try some tarmac hill climbs. I have to work on the driver modd more than anything. Im no where near a good enough driver to do any of the above. I will be attending driving classes and learning the next coming year. I really plan to just get seat time and exposing myself to competition.

[MaczPayne]

Impressive numbers! The 35R is what I'm strongly leaning towards for my power upgrades next year, looks like I'll be happy with that.

[FDwarrior]

I can say the car is to fast to have fun on the street. I look at opening the taps like playing russian roulette(Im not talking about blowing the engine either).

[Rotary no Densetsu]

Hell yeah man, this thing is so badass.

[Force13b]

Sounds awesome! Bad ass build right there.

[NoDOHC]

Is the 523 Hp Whp or corrected to flywheel Hp by a conversion ratio? [I saw the Torque (flywheel) on the bottom]

Do you have a dyno plot that shows the AFR? I am curious how lean you went.

It would appear from the power curve that you were lean of 12:1. If not, that is an impressive plot indeed.

[FDwarrior]

Its wheel horse power. We made sure on the dynapak the everything was like it should be. We were not running lean at all. I am running two denso pumps in the tank. We had a wide band on the car, when we were tunning. The fuel was holding in there, and appears to have more. I am going to try to get it back on the dyno before winter.

[GtoRx7]

Is the 523 Hp Whp or corrected to flywheel Hp by a conversion ratio? [I saw the Torque (flywheel) on the bottom]

Do you have a dyno plot that shows the AFR? I am curious how lean you went.

It would appear from the power curve that you were lean of 12:1. If not, that is an impressive plot indeed.

Correct it is Wheel horsepower. Dyna packs read actual wheel torque, which in this case was 1,578 ft-lbs. But of course that isnt easily translated, so you select to view "flywheel torque". But its not actual flywheel torque of course.

[RICE RACING]

ultimately ou cannot say anything until you see the sheet with the TCF listed as 1.00 (which is not on the screens provided).

I.E. Like this >

http://www.riceracing.com.au/donsickcunt.jpg

I can take his word but this sheet will silence any doubters :seeya:

p.s. lots of shops put in different TCF values (which are not shown on other screens) to guess flywheel HP or to correct for other types of dyno standards that return higher numbers.

[GtoRx7]

We are going back to the dyno monday, so I will be sure to save the TCF values, and boost charts. But as a side note, if there is a TCF value entered in the "flywheel power" and "power" will not be the same number. The flywheel power will be higher the exact percentage the user entered.

[Ian]

Impressive. Time for me to upgrade my old T04B60-1 Turbo.

Stupid question. My car does not make that backfiring popping noise. Only did that when I changed it to ignition cut. Is that ignition cut? (Ok I am stupid should read instead of just clicking the video link)

I run fuel cut. I always thought that ignition cut was bad.

Either way always impressed to see big numbers. For some reason the majority of us only make around 400rwhp. I hit 409rwhp about 7 years ago on a dynojet. i had to up the boost to 18psi to make 400rwhp on a mustang dyno.

Have fun with that beast.....

[meca]

Regardless awsome work Logan!!! As for the 35R cant say enough about them good for street set-ups & weekend warriors! Did a 13B-PP with twin 35r made 972RWH @35psi (methanol)

[GtoRx7]

Regardless awsome work Logan!!! As for the 35R cant say enough about them good for street set-ups & weekend warriors! Did a 13B-PP with twin 35r made 972RWH @35psi (methanol)

Thank you! Peter (co-owner) is also responsible for building this car. It was his personal car originally as well :) I am glad Fdwarrior took the time to take it back to the dyno and let me re-tune it. It surprised everyone involved!

[GtoRx7]

Alot of people were wanting charts such as boost pressure, corrections etc. So here is pretty much everything I could think of that documents the results. Its still the highest 35r non-billet turbo 13b dyno chart backed by verified proof that I've seen posted. These numbers will be re-broken again I am sure on monday once we get back to the dyno again. But until then, enjoy!

First off is the charts showing TCF. And it of course is 1.00
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/fd20na/TCFfactorsandcomparisonsmatts14.jpg

Next up is the boost chart by itself
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/fd20na/BoostpressureMatts14.jpg

Then we have the boost chart and torque line to show relationships

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/fd20na/BoostvstorqueMatts14.jpg

[RICE RACING]

again very good job, those graphs should silence any doubters :lurk5:

For what its worth that (if you average all the runs) around ~7% to 8% more power at same peak rpm than what my old nugget had on 18psi running street port, plumb back waste gate, and 3" quiet exhaust system in 2002 on H trim (~57mm) compressor old T04B... S5 T2 engine block.

[NoDOHC]

I wish you would post AFR on the graph (or are you not logging it to the dyno?)

I am curious what more experienced Turbo engine tuners run, as a lot of people I talk to say nothing lean of 11:1 and I think that is leaving a lot of power on the table.

Peak power (for pump gas) is 13.3:1 (0.9 lambda). There is not much gain to be had lean of 13.0:1. As far as I know, this holds true for any chamber pressure - it is definately true for naturally aspirated applications.

Your VE must be relatively high if you are running 11:1 AFR.

[TitaniumTT]

I run about .82L (12:1) I must not be very experienced or know what the hell I'm talking about at all.... I mean when people are making 437 RWHP with Meth @ 22psi on a GT42R.... I mean, how can I compare right?!?!?!?!? :smilielol5::rofl::lol::rofl::smilielol5:

In all seriousness, this are the things that I like to see. Convinces me even more that I'll be able to break the HP/Torque that I want to make with a very similar turbo.

Nice numbers.... Love the setup....great job

[FDwarrior]

I wish you would post AFR on the graph (or are you not logging it to the dyno?)

I am curious what more experienced Turbo engine tuners run, as a lot of people I talk to say nothing lean of 11:1 and I think that is leaving a lot of power on the table.

Peak power (for pump gas) is 13.3:1 (0.9 lambda). There is not much gain to be had lean of 13.0:1. As far as I know, this holds true for any chamber pressure - it is definately true for naturally aspirated applications.

Your VE must be relatively high if you are running 11:1 AFR.

Honestly I should let Logan respond, but I would say he is about as experienced as it gets. He currently has the highest horsepower from a 2 rotor n/a using a street port. He also just made 421, with allot more left from an n/a 3 rotor using a street port and semi-p port. Rally I would not let any one else touch my car. I would sell my car before having to go some where else if those were my only two options. Im just talking from my experience as a customer, along with what I have seen come out of there shop. I know for a fact there is no other n/a 3 rotor that even comes close to his. Logan's semi-p port is almost touching documented full p-port numbers. I would not be concerned with experience.

[FDwarrior]

I run about .82L (12:1) I must not be very experienced or know what the hell I'm talking about at all.... I mean when people are making 437 RWHP with Meth @ 22psi on a GT42R.... I mean, how can I compare right?!?!?!?!? :smilielol5::rofl::lol::rofl::smilielol5:

In all seriousness, this are the things that I like to see. Convinces me even more that I'll be able to break the HP/Torque that I want to make with a very similar turbo.

Nice numbers.... Love the setup....great job

Thanks, and I agree with what you are saying. I really think the problem is that the U.S. rotary tunning market is very lack luster over-all. Most of the "experienced" and refined rotary tunners of the U.S. market don't have much to show. I see most people take rumor as fact, which takes credit away from shops that produce documented results. Im mainly talking about things I have seen on r-club since I have been on there. Mostly things in the 3 rotor realm, which is notorious for bench racing, and theorizing without proven results. As some one who spends hard earned money of things I don't want an engine built from rumor of what works. There is much more to be had over all in every aspect of the rotary engine. I guess the biggest difference between my engine and some others is mine is built to go race, not be a novelty to a group of enthusiast. I know there are people and shops out there pushing the limits, and making the necessary small detail research.

[TitaniumTT]

Honestly I should let Logan respond, but I would say he is about as experienced as it gets. He currently has the highest horsepower from a 2 rotor n/a using a street port. He also just made 421, with allot more left from an n/a 3 rotor using a street port and semi-p port. Rally I would not let any one else touch my car. I would sell my car before having to go some where else if those were my only two options. Im just talking from my experience as a customer, along with what I have seen come out of there shop. I know for a fact there is no other n/a 3 rotor that even comes close to his. Logan's semi-p port is almost touching documented full p-port numbers. I would not be concerned with experience.

I don't think he's concerned with Logan's experience, I think he more interested in the experience he has and what it's lead him to believe.... if that makes sense... it does in my caffine hieghtened state :D

Basically there are a bunch of tools on the evil forum who won't run in the 11's under boost, add meth as a safety factor, retard the ignition as a safety factor and end up with blown engines becuase they don't know what the hell they're doing..... I mean really... 22psi out of a GT42R on a HBP and the most he could make was 437 something ponies.....

Thanks, and I agree with what you are saying. I really think the problem is that the U.S. rotary tunning market is very lack luster over-all. Most of the "experienced" and refined rotary tunners of the U.S. market don't have much to show. I see most people take rumor as fact, which takes credit away from shops that produce documented results. Im mainly talking about things I have seen on r-club since I have been on there. Mostly things in the 3 rotor realm, which is notorious for bench racing, and theorizing without proven results. As some one who spends hard earned money of things I don't want an engine built from rumor of what works. There is much more to be had over all in every aspect of the rotary engine. I guess the biggest difference between my engine and some others is mine is built to go race, not be a novelty to a group of enthusiast. I know there are people and shops out there pushing the limits, and making the necessary small detail research.

I agree, most of the people out there that are on the cutting edge aren't posting on the forums. I can understand it, this is their livelihood... they're not going to give away the secrets that they fought so hard to find. That's what gives them thier edge and keeps people coming to them. Its the enthusiasts or people that think they are that will constantly post up thier findings. The problem is there are a select few that actually know WTF they're doing when building a engine, tuning an engine, etc etc while the bulk of them are keyboard mechanics and theorists that can't see past thier mistakes. So, if each group posts an equal amount, there will be a tremendous amount of shit out there..... this is my view of 7club, BDC, HC etc etc etc.... While the membership here isn't nearly as great in numbers, I feel that the quality of people posting here is much higher...... Just my $.02

[GtoRx7]

I wish you would post AFR on the graph (or are you not logging it to the dyno?)

I am curious what more experienced Turbo engine tuners run, as a lot of people I talk to say nothing lean of 11:1 and I think that is leaving a lot of power on the table.

Peak power (for pump gas) is 13.3:1 (0.9 lambda). There is not much gain to be had lean of 13.0:1. As far as I know, this holds true for any chamber pressure - it is definately true for naturally aspirated applications.

Your VE must be relatively high if you are running 11:1 AFR.

Yeah when tuning a turbo engine, I do not use the dyno wideband. The internal dampening is too slow for quick decisions if things get out of hand. AFR for a turbo rotary strictly depends on how much generated heat is entering the engine. For example, I see ALOT of people running a turbine housing that is 1 inch away from the intake manifold with no heat shield at all! Hmmmm blown engine anyone?? But typically a nice safe tune will be in the 11.1-11.2 range. In a controlled environment or on a very well insulated/ well cooled turbo rotary setup, 12.0- 12.5 can be done. But that tune is not safe in my opinion in the real world at the track.

Now with that said, do not get too hung up on a 13.3 afr number. Yes n/a two rotors seem to enjoy 12.8-13.4 in the testing I have done as well. But remember not each rotor is burning EXACTLY the same as the other. And we typically are using only one wideband. So if you ever get into n/a 3 rotors, trying to tune for 13.3 might actually hurt power. Simply the variance and heat difference from the front of the engine all the way to the rear can cause this. When I tune N/a piston engines like the Honda b16 and b18, they actually made the best power at 14.0 afr. So dont cling too hard on values, and always let the dyno do most of the talking.

[TitaniumTT]

Yeah when tuning a turbo engine, I do not use the dyno wideband. The internal dampening is too slow for quick decisions if things get out of hand. AFR for a turbo rotary strictly depends on how much generated heat is entering the engine. For example, I see ALOT of people running a turbine housing that is 1 inch away from the intake manifold with no heat shield at all! Hmmmm blown engine anyone?? But typically a nice safe tune will be in the 11.1-11.2 range. In a controlled environment or on a very well insulated/ well cooled turbo rotary setup, 12.0- 12.5 can be done. But that tune is not safe in my opinion in the real world at the track.

Now with that said, do not get too hung up on a 13.3 afr number. Yes n/a two rotors seem to enjoy 12.8-13.4 in the testing I have done as well. But remember not each rotor is burning EXACTLY the same as the other. And we typically are using only one wideband. So if you ever get into n/a 3 rotors, trying to tune for 13.3 might actually hurt power. Simply the variance and heat difference from the front of the engine all the way to the rear can cause this. When I tune N/a piston engines like the Honda b16 and b18, they actually made the best power at 14.0 afr. So dont cling too hard on values, and always let the dyno do most of the talking.

So are you suggesting that actual real world testing trump rumors and little kids on the internet!!! Say it isn't so!!! :smilielol5:

I agree that 11:1 is safe... it's about as "SAFE" as I'm willing to go on a SP and I would actually go a little leaner on HBP just becuase of the overlap. I look for 11.7-12.0 on my personal setup but I have more faith in my injectors, ECU and coils than most of the others out on the mkt

I've got everything related to Exhaust or Intake ceramic coated and a good bit of airflow through the engine bay. Even after repeated dyno abuse most of the intake is cool to the touch. So I am a very big believer in what you're saying about heat. EGT's are also key to monitor as is EMAP..... I'd be VERY curious to what this turbo is generating for EMAP at given boost levels. You're not logging that by chance are you?

[NoDOHC]

Yeah when tuning a turbo engine, I do not use the dyno wideband. The internal dampening is too slow for quick decisions if things get out of hand. AFR for a turbo rotary strictly depends on how much generated heat is entering the engine. For example, I see ALOT of people running a turbine housing that is 1 inch away from the intake manifold with no heat shield at all! Hmmmm blown engine anyone?? But typically a nice safe tune will be in the 11.1-11.2 range. In a controlled environment or on a very well insulated/ well cooled turbo rotary setup, 12.0- 12.5 can be done. But that tune is not safe in my opinion in the real world at the track.

Now with that said, do not get too hung up on a 13.3 afr number. Yes n/a two rotors seem to enjoy 12.8-13.4 in the testing I have done as well. But remember not each rotor is burning EXACTLY the same as the other. And we typically are using only one wideband. So if you ever get into n/a 3 rotors, trying to tune for 13.3 might actually hurt power. Simply the variance and heat difference from the front of the engine all the way to the rear can cause this. When I tune N/a piston engines like the Honda b16 and b18, they actually made the best power at 14.0 afr. So dont cling too hard on values, and always let the dyno do most of the talking.


My hat is off to you, sir!

Very well written reply - I couldn't agree more that test data trumps theory anyday, rules of thumb will only get a baseline, the dyno is required for peak power.

I was told that rotaries liked 12:1 AFR for peak power when I decided to throw a Haltech ECU in my car, I tuned to 12:1 rather than following my experience on piston engines because I didn't expect it to port across. Instead, I found that I gave up 40 WHp by tuning to 12:1, relative to 13.3 (where I would have tuned it if left to my own devices).

I was also told that ignition timing should be 26 degrees, I found peak power (+20WHp at 38 degrees - which is a good baseline number for a <10:1 engine). Thus I found the piston engine knowledge that I had acquired has ported over very nicely to rotaries.

I completely agree that chamber swirl has great effects on fuel distribution and therefore desired AFR for peak power (hence the tumble head design on a DOHC 4-valve cylinder requiring a leaner AFR).

I was mostly curious for my own information, as I have little to no experience with gasoline-fuelled forced induction engines, but I have pretty good experience with normally aspirated gasoline engines. I work with turbocharged diesel and Natural gas engines every day, so I am always curious how the parallels carry across.

My experience has led me to conclude that a higher compression ratio tends to make better torque and require slightly leaner AFRs while accepting less timing advance. I am always trying to obtain information that can help me apply these trends to rotaries. I am relatively new to rotaries as compared to my piston engine experience.

Don't give out information that will hurt your livelihood, but you have earned the respect of one amature rotary builder with your above reply.

[TitaniumTT]

Speaking of fuel swirl and distribution....

Over the winter.... last winter that is I made 2 changes to the engine setup.

One were the coils. I went with a "different" inductive coil.
The second was the injectors. I went from some "Marren American Style" (basically propane injectors) sized 750/1000 to some Paul Yaw ID 725/2000. I intend to throw my old LS1 coils back on as well a a bunch of other's to test the ignition system and various coils. It will also be interesting to compare this years dyno's to last. The distribution will be much more even across the chamber with the new injectors. I'd be curious to see if it leads to more torque and the ability to run slightly leaner as well.

Eventually I'll get the thing together and on the dyno for these tests.

[FDwarrior]

Went back to the dyno one more time on pump gas to see what slightly higher boost would effect. Still under 20psi. About 18.8psi peak going to 16 psi redline. Definitely stretching the fuel system to the upper limits. 535rwhp / 406rwtq. The methanol system is almost finished now, so that will be the next very soon!

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh115/fd20na/Matts14higherboosthp.jpg

[David Jerome]

Not trying to start anything, but it is funny to read some of these reactions over dyno numbers. Take it to the track, 540 rwhp fd will trap in the 130s in the 1/4, if it does that then the numbers are believable. It is just hard for me to believe you are making 520+rwhp on 14-15psi when every other setup is making 425-450 on this exact setup. :dunno:

Ill make you the same offer I made TitaniumTT, take it to another dyno and I will pay for your pulls as long as you post the honest results.

Once again, not trying to start anything or discredit anyones work whatsoever. When you see hundreds of examples of a setup all within a 5% variance of power at X psi, you kinda have to question the 1 or 2 setups that come out with 20% more power :dunno:

Please dont take this as me downing anyone, I love to see improvements with the rotary but I am realistic. I have a customer trapping 127mph on the stock twins with 370rwhp and weight reduction, 540 at the wheels should easily hit 130mph in the 1/4. Ill pay for your dragstrip passes or for you to dyno on another dyno if you are willing to accept?

David
RotaryRebuildStore.com

[RotorDad]

Interesting offer. Are you asking him to try another dyno other than a dynapack or just a a different location to validate his times? 540hp in a 2900 lb car should run in the area of 10.2 at 133 mph. Assuming that your customers car only weighed 2400 lbs with 370 hp should show a 10.8 at 125 mph. I also am not trying to start anything, but you are here asking for proof right. Well you listed an unknown customer car, with no real info other than 370 hp & weight reduction with some trap speed. I hate to say it but you haven't really made a good argument & no hard info was provided on your customers car. Now I may be wrong this is just my opinion. BTW there are other factors involved other than Hp & weight when at the track, which I'm positive you already know.

[David Jerome]

Interesting offer. Are you asking him to try another dyno other than a dynapack or just a a different location to validate his times? 540hp in a 2900 lb car should run in the area of 10.2 at 133 mph. Assuming that your customers car only weighed 2400 lbs with 370 hp should show a 10.8 at 125 mph. I also am not trying to start anything, but you are here asking for proof right. Well you listed an unknown customer car, with no real info other than 370 hp & weight reduction with some trap speed. I hate to say it but you haven't really made a good argument & no hard info was provided on your customers car. Now I may be wrong this is just my opinion. BTW there are other factors involved other than Hp & weight when at the track, which I'm positive you already know.

Trap speeds are trap speeds unless you are making 1000hp and litterally spinning down the track.

Customer is on the other forum, Im not trying to take credit for his car or his accomplishments. All I did was rebuild his block. Car weighs 2560 without driver, made 368rwhp, FD, non-sequential, 3" exhaust, enough fuel, slicks, stock 5 speed trans, 4.10 gears, 20psi on stock twins. Not leaving on 2step just revving and going so would be similar to the above car. The car I am speaking of went 11.1 at 127 and has gone 11.0s at 126.

What do I have to prove? When someone comes on a forum claiming near 100+ rwhp more than the other 100 setups documented at a certain boost level I think it is up to them to prove the numbers or expect few to believe it.

I figured people would reacte the way you did, so let me clarify. I WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG. Just highly doubt I will.

Ill pay for him to run on a dyno dynamics dyno run by a reputable shop or pay for him to run at the dragstrip. Even throw in an extra $50.00 to cover gas or whatever else. I would love to believe we can make 523rwhp with a responsive small turbo at 14-15psi on these cars but just dont see it happening. :dunno:

[RotorDad]

Are you questioning the power achieved on the 35r or are you questioning the amount of boosted claimed to get the numbers in his claim? I understand that you have questions to the claims & I see nothing wrong it.

[TitaniumTT]

I've been wanting to take David up on his offer, but I changed a few things over the winter and have yet to get back on the dyno this year to finalize everything. That will hopefully be happening on Friday, then when I get back, get on a local dyno.... actually.... David, where are you located and do you have a dyno nearby? I might actually be passing damn close to where you are

[David Jerome]

Are you questioning the power achieved on the 35r or are you questioning the amount of boosted claimed to get the numbers in his claim? I understand that you have questions to the claims & I see nothing wrong it.

As posted on rx7club these turbos can make 500rwhp, just not at 14-15lbs. Enzo Tunings brother made around 501rwhp in his car and trapped 131mph at over 20psi.

There was another guy from another country claiming similar numbers as in this thread and went and trapped around 120mph and no one really believed his claims.

Once again, I hope I am proven wrong.

[David Jerome]

I've been wanting to take David up on his offer, but I changed a few things over the winter and have yet to get back on the dyno this year to finalize everything. That will hopefully be happening on Friday, then when I get back, get on a local dyno.... actually.... David, where are you located and do you have a dyno nearby? I might actually be passing damn close to where you are

Im in Knoxville, TN and we have 3-4 dynos here in town. Stop by and I will treat you to a nice dinner also. I could talk rotaries all day every day. :)

[RotorDad]

Well getting another dyno reading seems like it will be the way to go. Gauging power by a trap speed will not give you the answers you are looking for. 14-15 psi may seem low, but I don't really have any experience with a 35r on a rotary. As I said above there is too many other factors which will result in different outcomes. Also the FD you spoke of ran those times at around 2700 lbs, because listing the car with out the driver weight is useless. The car didn't drive it self down the track, an average person I would think to be 140-200 lbs. Another thing to think about which may not make much of a difference, but this is in a 240SX not FD. I just think to prove the the claims another dyno run would be the best route to take.

[TitaniumTT]

Im in Knoxville, TN and we have 3-4 dynos here in town. Stop by and I will treat you to a nice dinner also. I could talk rotaries all day every day. :)

Sweet! You're on. I plan on being at Deals Gap on or about 12/18. So I'll plan on heading that way that Monday. Definately cool of you David. thanks much.

-Brian

[David Jerome]

Sweet! You're on. I plan on being at Deals Gap on or about 12/18. So I'll plan on heading that way that Monday. Definately cool of you David. thanks much.

-Brian

As of now that date looks like it will work. When it gets closer I will talk to the dyno owner and get it setup.:cheers2:

[C. Ludwig]

This is one of the problems you run into when you start comparing dyno numbers. Any dyno numbers, let alone numbers from different brands of dynos.

As an example, Enzo's brothers car was mentioned. That car has dyno charts from a Dyno Dynamics dyno that say 501 peak. Problem with that is that Enzo skewed the actual DD reading by 15% to emulate a Dynojet number. Not a problem with that really, IMO anyway, as the Dynojet numbers are the most common numbers people throw around. I have, myself, run cars back to back on a Dyno Dynamics and a Dynojet, and the 15% number is exactly what I found. Even if you use the same dyno to measure the car in question and a standard control subject, who is to say input factors of the dyno aren't being skewed? Racing dynos doesn't get you anywhere.

So what? So, trap speed then becomes the best indicator of relative power. Trap speed is relatively immune to how you get the car off the line. Whether you nail the 60 ft or ease off the line, you'll trap similarly. Since this car is built as a drift car, I would guess you'll never see quarter mile numbers on it. Just a guess.

[Libor]

As posted on rx7club these turbos can make 500rwhp, just not at 14-15lbs. Enzo Tunings brother made around 501rwhp in his car and trapped 131mph at over 20psi.

With T3 frame GT35R. As you know, this GT35R compressor is mated with T4 P-trim turbine, big difference. Also this is bridgeport vs. stockport. And last posted numbers were done with 18.8 PSI tapering down to 16 PSI.

I don´t see problem here. Just well sorted combination...

[sk8world]

Well getting another dyno reading seems like it will be the way to go. Gauging power by a trap speed will not give you the answers you are looking for. 14-15 psi may seem low, but I don't really have any experience with a 35r on a rotary. As I said above there is too many other factors which will result in different outcomes. Also the FD you spoke of ran those times at around 2700 lbs, because listing the car with out the driver weight is useless. The car didn't drive it self down the track, an average person I would think to be 140-200 lbs. Another thing to think about which may not make much of a difference, but this is in a 240SX not FD. I just think to prove the the claims another dyno run would be the best route to take.


I am with David on this one as well. You CAN run your car down the 1/4 and shift it regular on a shitty 60 foot and your trap speed will be your best. The car should trap in the 128-130 then it makes 500rwhp area. My best 60 has been on a 2.1 60 foot!!! As far as boost goes I would imagine him being closer to 20 to hit that number if not even a tad more.

Anything is possible but I never trust dyno numbers. Its kinda like going to the track, you usually leave with a slower time than you came to run. Same goes on the dyno.

Most dyno's can and are manipulated. You want a happy customer.

BUT in the end all that really matters is YOU are happy with your car. Just got to watch out claiming a certain number requires more than a dyno sheet now a days.

[RICE RACING]

Well getting another dyno reading seems like it will be the way to go. Gauging power by a trap speed will not give you the answers you are looking for. 14-15 psi may seem low, but I don't really have any experience with a 35r on a rotary. As I said above there is too many other factors which will result in different outcomes. Also the FD you spoke of ran those times at around 2700 lbs, because listing the car with out the driver weight is useless. The car didn't drive it self down the track, an average person I would think to be 140-200 lbs. Another thing to think about which may not make much of a difference, but this is in a 240SX not FD. I just think to prove the the claims another dyno run would be the best route to take.


This thread is turning to shit quick.

If you doubt speeds as a measure of power then you have no idea of physics. You can learn some by looking at my page, use proper gear and you will see direct correlation with "terminal speed" and "power" or lack of power in some peoples cases :)

I for one accept dynapack (and you rear hub power result), they are one of the best dynos period to use in the common battler spec domestic person "off the street general public" alternatives. if you run it at 1.00 TCF then what it gives you is what you have. In my experience if you want to guess your engine power you ONLY use a TCF of around 8% *little more* when you apply this to proper physics *again see my web page* you will see that if you are honest (weight measure) and (engine power estimate) then YOU WILL EQUAL the theoretical "mph" terminal speed target at std temp and pressure conditions.

But hey I only do this everyday and teach it for a living as well :seeya: it helps to have the best measuring gear in the world and an education to make the most use of it :001_005: when you tie it all in together you see that lots of stuff makes perfect sense in dyno land and in reality land :001_005:

[FDwarrior]

Wow, this thread did go somewhat crazy. Im going to speak as a customer here. I have seen many different cars on the same dyno I was on. I have also seen those cars on different dynos as well, all producing the same numbers basically(dyno brand differences).

First off, my engine is the result of many years of R&D. Second if any one has any doubt of what has been done even after the results have been posted, I don't know what to tell you. Just because some of you have seen 1zillion 35r 13b's not do what mine did means nothing, except maybe defined should have built there engines. Like I said before there are things done to my engine that are really never done(mostly internal, one of the things is clearly visible in my engine pics), a result of R&D. All I can say is maybe some of the doubters should step up there R&D. I said it before I just want credit to go where it belongs, to Defined Autoworks the ones who built the engine.

And I will go to any dyno, or any track. The track part might be hard now that it's snowing where I live.

[RotorDad]

This thread is turning to shit quick.

If you doubt speeds as a measure of power then you have no idea of physics. You can learn some by looking at my page, use proper gear and you will see direct correlation with "terminal speed" and "power" or lack of power in some peoples cases :)



Hey I will honestly say that you all definitely know more than me, but still how is trap speed going to determine how many pounds of boost he is using to make these claimed numbers. I am aware that dyno's can be fudged & I understand that there may be questions to the claims by another member. I just figured if Mr. Jerome was going to pay for Dyno time, then going to a neutral / unbiased shop to make a run for some results, where the boost levels can be better monitored. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm too trusting & just taking the info provided by the OP as correct.

[FDwarrior]

Hey I will honestly say that you all definitely know more than me, but still how is trap speed going to determine how many pounds of boost he is using to make these claimed numbers. I am aware that dyno's can be fudged & I understand that there may be questions to the claims by another member. I just figured if Mr. Jerome was going to pay for Dyno time, then going to a neutral / unbiased shop to make a run for some results, where the boost levels can be better monitored. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm too trusting & just taking the info provided by the OP as correct.

We do dyno at a neutral/ unbiased shop. We use Slowmotion Motorsports dyno. Slowmotion tunes many cars but specializes in hondas, and could care less about rotaries. What happens is we go to there dynos, throw the car on, tune, and then pay them. Defined no longer has there own dynos, so we use there dyno's or another shops.

[RotorDad]

Well with all said I respect the car & the work involved in the build. I'll leave the rest to the professionals.

[RICE RACING]

Honestly you don't have anything to prove to any cock suckers on the internet, if they don't believe your dynapack result and want to cast aspersions then its a reflection of their lack of ability/and real world knowledge (not googled or forum'd shit) nothing more.

It's a sweet car with great power :auto:

[David Jerome]

Wow, this thread did go somewhat crazy. Im going to speak as a customer here. I have seen many different cars on the same dyno I was on. I have also seen those cars on different dynos as well, all producing the same numbers basically(dyno brand differences).

First off, my engine is the result of many years of R&D. Second if any one has any doubt of what has been done even after the results have been posted, I don't know what to tell you. Just because some of you have seen 1zillion 35r 13b's not do what mine did means nothing, except maybe defined should have built there engines. Like I said before there are things done to my engine that are really never done(mostly internal, one of the things is clearly visible in my engine pics), a result of R&D. All I can say is maybe some of the doubters should step up there R&D. I said it before I just want credit to go where it belongs, to Defined Autoworks the ones who built the engine.

And I will go to any dyno, or any track. The track part might be hard now that it's snowing where I live.

I figured this is the reaction I would receive. I am taking no credit from anyone. If you are willing to run the car in the spring at a track I will still be willing to pay. I assume you will be honest and keep the boost at 15lbs and see what happens. Like I said I hope you prove me wrong, you wont find anyone more willing and happy to benchrace for the rotary and what it can do. I simply said it was hard for me to believe, and that is why I offered the challenge and am willing to pay. Im not raising the BS flag and running away. This would be excellent advertising for Defined if your trap speeds can back up the dyno numbers.

Im simply saying I know what different dynos can do and how they can be altered. My fd made 360rwhp on right at 13lbs on the stock twins, atleast thats what the dyno dynamics said once the shop owner put in his calculation to relate it to a dynojet. Call me crazy but I dont believe my medium streetport, Non-sequential fd made 360rwhp on 13lbs with a PFC base tune.:dunno:

[TitaniumTT]

Wow, this thread did go somewhat crazy. Im going to speak as a customer here. I have seen many different cars on the same dyno I was on. I have also seen those cars on different dynos as well, all producing the same numbers basically(dyno brand differences).

First off, my engine is the result of many years of R&D. Second if any one has any doubt of what has been done even after the results have been posted, I don't know what to tell you. Just because some of you have seen 1zillion 35r 13b's not do what mine did means nothing, except maybe defined should have built there engines. Like I said before there are things done to my engine that are really never done(mostly internal, one of the things is clearly visible in my engine pics), a result of R&D. All I can say is maybe some of the doubters should step up there R&D. I said it before I just want credit to go where it belongs, to Defined Autoworks the ones who built the engine.

And I will go to any dyno, or any track. The track part might be hard now that it's snowing where I live.

First, I'm curious to what you're referring to when you say clearly visible in one engine bay pic?

For me, I usually see it as the other way around. My favorite example is the guy that made 437rwhp on a dyno-jet with a GT42R and 21psi....... think about that for a minute. I feel that there is ALOT to be made.... or in most cases lost, because people don't know what they're doing when it comes to tuning. I believe this is where alot of people get stuck with the "normal." Most REW twins seem to land between 350-360 and occasionally with a touch more boost, a little more timing, a little less fuel will get upwards of 380. In my case, there is all that plus the most effiecient engine I could build, big exhaust, short intercooler piping, small core.... it netted me 405rwhp on dyno-jet. Take the myriads of GT35R guys out there running very little timing, 10.5:1 afr's making around 4-425. Lean it out a lot, like a full point, add some timing, reduce the EMAP, and see what happens. An extra 25% hp I don't think is outrageous.

This is also a 1.0 A/R snail correct?

I figured this is the reaction I would receive. I am taking no credit from anyone. If you are willing to run the car in the spring at a track I will still be willing to pay. I assume you will be honest and keep the boost at 15lbs and see what happens. Like I said I hope you prove me wrong, you wont find anyone more willing and happy to benchrace for the rotary and what it can do. I simply said it was hard for me to believe, and that is why I offered the challenge and am willing to pay. Im not raising the BS flag and running away. This would be excellent advertising for Defined if your trap speeds can back up the dyno numbers.

Im simply saying I know what different dynos can do and how they can be altered. My fd made 360rwhp on right at 13lbs on the stock twins, atleast thats what the dyno dynamics said once the shop owner put in his calculation to relate it to a dynojet. Call me crazy but I dont believe my medium streetport, Non-sequential fd made 360rwhp on 13lbs with a PFC base tune.:dunno:

So what's you're plan when I get into town David? Hit up a dyno-pak and put that correction factor in to see where we land? I wouldn't be opposed to going to a drag strip either. I warn you though, I've never once drag raced so be prepared to laugh your ass off:biggthumpup: You sound like you have a cery good grasp of the different dyno's and how they measure everything, we'll have to chat about this in great depth. I just accepted that different tools measure things differently and left it at that as there was so much contradicting info on the net when I was looking into it years ago.

[David Jerome]

So what's you're plan when I get into town David? Hit up a dyno-pak and put that correction factor in to see where we land? I wouldn't be opposed to going to a drag strip either. I warn you though, I've never once drag raced so be prepared to laugh your ass off:biggthumpup: You sound like you have a cery good grasp of the different dyno's and how they measure everything, we'll have to chat about this in great depth. I just accepted that different tools measure things differently and left it at that as there was so much contradicting info on the net when I was looking into it years ago.

I figured we would go to the shop where I dynoed my fd. It is a dyno dynamics dyno. He can give us the "true" numbers then the adjusted numbers "True Xs 1.16"(16% correction factor). Im no expert on dynos, not by any stretch or do I study them. However, it is common knowledge that Dyno Jet dynos typically show 15% higher numbers than a Dyno Dynamics dyno with the original software. After a quick search (google), I found a post saying that the shop the OPs car dynoed at reads roughly 4% higher than a Dyno Jet(this coming from the shop itself). So that is a 19% correction over what a Dyno Dynamics(heartbreaker dyno) reads.

I hope when you meet me you arent expecting some genius automotive mind or something. Im very comfortable in what I do and focus on my business and keeping customers happy. Im not out R&Ding and trying to push the envelope. I know a decent bit about fds and how to keep them on the road, that is what I do. I dont pretend to have knowlege of something when I do not. My knowledge and info comes from real world experiences and not a class room and definitely not theories.

I know you probably wonder why I would make the comments I did in this thread and in yours. To me the numbers dont add up, not at the boost levels that are claimed anyways. There is one other person that has claimed 400rwhp on stock fd twins(truly stock twins) and he is the record holder for fastest times ever. 10.9 at 126 and that was with 402rwhp at roughly 19psi.

The drag strip is most accurate indicator of HP. We can race dynos all day, but the drag strip tells the story. If you know the weight of the car and the MPH it traps the power becomes pretty clear. Especially on a quick spooling setup with a broader power band, they will often trap slightly higher than another car with same peak power but laggier response.

Im not saying your car doesnt make 400rwhp or the OPs car doesnt make 5xx at 15lbs, I just want to see what happens when the cars go to a different dyno or run at the drag strip. If Im wrong I will be the first to admit it and gladly post it here for all to see or wherever else.

I dont make my living doing this work anymore, I do still make money but I keep doing it because I love FDs. I just try to keep as many FDs on the road as possible.

[David Jerome]

Also, I highly doubt the dragstrip will be open. We have an 1/8 mile local that tries to stay open on weekends throughout the winter but weather rarely allows it.

[GtoRx7]

Logan forgot to log out on my computer, FDwarrior.

[FDwarrior]

First, I'm curious to what you're referring to when you say clearly visible in one engine bay pic?

For me, I usually see it as the other way around. My favorite example is the guy that made 437rwhp on a dyno-jet with a GT42R and 21psi....... think about that for a minute. I feel that there is ALOT to be made.... or in most cases lost, because people don't know what they're doing when it comes to tuning. I believe this is where alot of people get stuck with the "normal." Most REW twins seem to land between 350-360 and occasionally with a touch more boost, a little more timing, a little less fuel will get upwards of 380. In my case, there is all that plus the most effiecient engine I could build, big exhaust, short intercooler piping, small core.... it netted me 405rwhp on dyno-jet. Take the myriads of GT35R guys out there running very little timing, 10.5:1 afr's making around 4-425. Lean it out a lot, like a full point, add some timing, reduce the EMAP, and see what happens. An extra 25% hp I don't think is outrageous.

This is also a 1.0 A/R snail correct?



So what's you're plan when I get into town David? Hit up a dyno-pak and put that correction factor in to see where we land? I wouldn't be opposed to going to a drag strip either. I warn you though, I've never once drag raced so be prepared to laugh your ass off:biggthumpup: You sound like you have a cery good grasp of the different dyno's and how they measure everything, we'll have to chat about this in great depth. I just accepted that different tools measure things differently and left it at that as there was so much contradicting info on the net when I was looking into it years ago.

There is something done to my engine that most people would never think to do, and is clearly visible in the pics. There are many things done to my engine that most people would never think of, none of which are foreign power adders just things in the build. I am also using a 1.00a/r turbine housing.

Once again I can't wait to go to the drag strip. I would also not require anyone to pay for my runs just to prove the many years of R&D behind the defined engines.

This has also never been done before by a long, long, long shot. Even more power and torque on page 2.

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=12767

This is the shop owners personal car, much of this knowledge went into building the engine in my car. This engine makes about basically the same power as full blown p-ports, from semi-p ports. When you build the most efficient n/a engine that knowledge transfers to building the most efficient turbo engine, thus my power numbers on super low boost. The numbers don't add up on this 20b to many of the big hitters, but what does that mean?

I also don't know how my car in particular will get an accurate power reading from the drag strip. There is no arguing physics, but we are talking about a perfect world scenario. A 400whp FD will not spin 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear all the way through(I had one before this car). My car can spin tire all the way through 3rd, because it weighs 2520lbs. I know some wheel spin off the line will not affect the mph, Im talking about spinning half way down the track and letting out of it. Im still going to go to the track any ways, hopefully with some 10.5 inch drag slicks.

[FDwarrior]

Logan forgot to log out on my computer, FDwarrior.

I made my previous post under logan's log in, did not see my computer saved his info for automatic log in.

[classicauto]

I will say this:

I have been around for a while and seen alot of tuners work. Very very few people I've met in my time in the rotary game were as well sorted, hard working and knowledgeable as Logan. Extremely thorough in all aspects of his job.

I'm not blindly saying that whatever comes out of that shop is 100% legit (although after my experience there I have no reason to believe otherwise) I'm simply saying that if anyone's capable of exceeding "the norm" in any application - it is Defined Autoworks.

I don't doubt the numbers this car makes. But I would like to see drag times simply out of pure enthusiasim :lol:

EDIT: And I see your secret mod hiding in that picture. Snowbrush hood props are good for an extra 10% to the hubs any day of the week!

[RICE RACING]

I figured this is the reaction I would receive. I am taking no credit from anyone. If you are willing to run the car in the spring at a track I will still be willing to pay. I assume you will be honest and keep the boost at 15lbs and see what happens. Like I said I hope you prove me wrong, you wont find anyone more willing and happy to benchrace for the rotary and what it can do. I simply said it was hard for me to believe, and that is why I offered the challenge and am willing to pay. Im not raising the BS flag and running away. This would be excellent advertising for Defined if your trap speeds can back up the dyno numbers.

Im simply saying I know what different dynos can do and how they can be altered. My fd made 360rwhp on right at 13lbs on the stock twins, atleast thats what the dyno dynamics said once the shop owner put in his calculation to relate it to a dynojet. Call me crazy but I dont believe my medium streetport, Non-sequential fd made 360rwhp on 13lbs with a PFC base tune.:dunno:

Look mate, MOST of the numbers dyno's punch out are total bullshit! :lol:

I say again, you apply physics as applied to hundreds! of legit cars as listed on my page and you will see (as you are saying) that by some way that the estimated BHP *engine power* NEVER corresponds to the mph it achieves over the last 66ft of a 1320ft acceleration test :nopity:

Test a car in std temp, pressure day and show me the "mph" and I will believe that far more than most other forms of evidence. This is why I have high precision corner scales, and a $30k worth of Race Logic VBOX testing equipment. Also good to apply other very basic testing procedures such as in gear 90-140kmh test (3rd) and other more std tests which eliminate shifting excuses and launching etc etc like 100 to 200kmh or your backwards english imperial 60-130mph equivalents .......

It really does separate the bullshit for the facts!

http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm

On the DynoDynamics (in NORMAL MODE! not skewed like you cunts do to match optimistic dynojet guesses!) I tested dozens of cars and they put out stupidly high figures! then test the REAL power as delivered to the real wheels on my VBOX and self made forumla and its always around 13% LOWER!!!!! apply my well researched guess to estimate the legitimate engine power and put it into many proven forumlas (that have been used to check hundreds of legitimate supercars!) and by some lucky hand of god! the NUMBERS ADD UP!.

I have published a ton of this information of proper testing here> for anyone bored to read it > http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=143457&p=2345194&hilit=VBOX#p2345194 Mountains of cars from ALL genera, see how you measure up and what "rear wheel HP dreams you are putting your faith in!" :smash: :sifone: :lol: :bigear: :o13: :icon_tup: :driving:

p.s. (ref VBOX tests of American Ferrari F40 I got done and acquired actual corner weight check after test) There are some great comparisons there from stuff I know intimately well (Ferrari F40 for example and my own car) if you get yourself a simple VBOX consumer range item, you can quickly and easily do any in gear acceleration tests to compare yourself to very well known factory cars. One you will see on that page is a basic 60mph to 85mph (5000rpm to 7000rpm) power band check *ironically identical for both cars gearing wise so its a great comparo. American Ferrari F40 = 2.10 seconds V's mine on 18psi at 2.19 seconds (and my car being 100kg lighter in this test) you do the math lol at guessing the power of each car :) I currently run 1.52kg/cm or around 21.6psi boost pressure, that should be enough to not only beat the American F40 I have first hand data on but also its faster Euro cousin that is closer in weight to my Mighty RICESP Mazda RX7 :) and it WILL trap near 130mph in an old school 1320ft test......... if its got the power to beat all these other incremental measures. My heap of shit is 1320kg when tested and it "only" has just under 500 genuine engine donkeys under the hood! Some other peoples cars with OVER 600bhp and weight near 1100kg should do almost 140mph by comparison ............... but they NEVER do and always have an excuse to follow as well ironically LOL.

[FDwarrior]

Don't worry folks, Im going to go to the track when it's not winter. Also for "the thing" follow the intercooler pipes, and look at what parts should not go together. You should be stopping at the upper intake manifold. It's the small details on every part that count. Also it's all fine on my dyno results not being legit because I guess now no dyno is legit. I do however question why some people can shit out power numbers, like some of the three rotors on the other site and no one thinks twice. I do believe this thread has accomplished it's goal, advertisement. Any one getting a car built by a shop want's to see dyno results, any one who tries to argue any different is full of it. The only thing most of the power guys care about is a dyno chart. Slowmotion drag races as well so I could grab some of there slips, and compare them to that car's dyno number. I could show how accurate the dyno is by using Slowmotion's mph in the 1/4 to that same car's dyno chart. Im also going to use this thread as a build thread, so more to come in the future. This car ultimately is a road course car, so pics will be updated as events happen.

[RICE RACING]

Don't take my posts the worng way, I'm a big fan of you boys and hope you keep on it :party:

Given you life in a hic town and have heaps of testing opportunities I'd love it if you asked for Christmas to get a Race Logic Performance box, I'd love to share some actual figures with some capable rotary runners around the world ;)

I'll post up some links to very interesting cars that have been tested if you care to see them as well so you have some reference points of what to expect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDOqSnkZQQ0&feature=player_embedded < what 129mph in real street test looks like 1.5bar. VBOX proven!

With your level of power it, Should easily do over 200mph too lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8yZ0vcQMqo&feature=related *we want VBOX proof hahaha* I have of mine but I'm not about to post it on the internet like these idiots :)

[FDwarrior]

Don't take my posts the worng way, I'm a big fan of you boys and hope you keep on it :party:

Given you life in a hic town and have heaps of testing opportunities I'd love it if you asked for Christmas to get a Race Logic Performance box, I'd love to share some actual figures with some capable rotary runners around the world ;)

I'll post up some links to very interesting cars that have been tested if you care to see them as well so you have some reference points of what to expect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDOqSnkZQQ0&feature=player_embedded < what 129mph in real street test looks like 1.5bar. VBOX proven!

With your level of power it, Should easily do over 200mph too lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8yZ0vcQMqo&feature=related *we want VBOX proof hahaha* I have of mine but I'm not about to post it on the internet like these idiots :)

I was actually not responding to your post, you have been cool in this whole thread. I know you are not here trying stir things up. I would love to get a race logic, it would come in handy when the car starts circuit racing this year. My next hill is down force and more chassis development. Until I can create a chassis that will use the power, I will probably be running around 400hp. I have not done much research but can you put yaw and pitch sensors to the race logic?

[FDwarrior]

I was actually not responding to your post, you have been cool in this whole thread. I know you are not here trying stir things up. I would love to get a race logic, it would come in handy when the car starts circuit racing this year. My next hill is down force and more chassis development. Until I can create a chassis that will use the power, I will probably be running around 400hp. I have not done much research but can you put yaw and pitch sensors to the race logic?

Answered my own question. Looks like the vbox will give me all of the info I need. I figured that you would need external sensors going to a computer to display x/y line graphs of the cornering g's. Knowing the cornering g's is good, but knowing at what point they happen, when, and how long is even better.

[RICE RACING]

If I can be of any help at all please e-mail me peter@riceracing.com.au

There is a VBOX USA site, I'll find it and post a link for you. You will love it, the have new circuit analysis tools which is right down your path for what you want to do.

http://www.vboxusa.com/performancedrift/

VBOX forum is o.k. but I have not visited it for a good while.....

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/forum/index.php

The pro stuff is here........ but you better sit down when you request prices!

http://www.velocitybox.co.uk/ > products > http://www.velocitybox.co.uk/index.php/en/products-main/gps-data-loggers

[GtoRx7]

I will say this:

I have been around for a while and seen alot of tuners work. Very very few people I've met in my time in the rotary game were as well sorted, hard working and knowledgeable as Logan. Extremely thorough in all aspects of his job.

I'm not blindly saying that whatever comes out of that shop is 100% legit (although after my experience there I have no reason to believe otherwise) I'm simply saying that if anyone's capable of exceeding "the norm" in any application - it is Defined Autoworks.

I don't doubt the numbers this car makes. But I would like to see drag times simply out of pure enthusiasim :lol:

EDIT: And I see your secret mod hiding in that picture. Snowbrush hood props are good for an extra 10% to the hubs any day of the week!

Laughing my ass off. The snowbrush is a very well kept secret. FDwarrior uses it for battle, and releasing powers. lol. Thanks for the kind words Classic :) It was fun to meet you as well!

If I can be of any help at all please e-mail me peter@riceracing.com.au

There is a VBOX USA site, I'll find it and post a link for you. You will love it, the have new circuit analysis tools which is right down your path for what you want to do.

http://www.vboxusa.com/performancedrift/

VBOX forum is o.k. but I have not visited it for a good while.....

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/forum/index.php

The pro stuff is here........ but you better sit down when you request prices!

http://www.velocitybox.co.uk/ > products > http://www.velocitybox.co.uk/index.php/en/products-main/gps-data-loggers

Very interesting info Rice :) I smiled when reading about the F40 data results. That car has always been something I take notes from. One day it would be nice to own one. Looks like a Vbox is a great device. I remember pricing the racelogic.... and yeah I sat down pretty quick ;) lol

[RICE RACING]

it weighs 2520lbs..so 1143kg. My SP (though a road going set up) is 1216kg with about 30lt or 20kg of fuel on board.

Keep in touch will be great to keep up with how this exceptional car goes ;)

Many years ago I sold as a group buy *special 13B* programming over on the gay forum for a Race Logic Traction Control (Group buy). I run this in my own car and it would be wheel spin hell without it (1st and 2nd just torches the 255 semi slicks I run on the back and that is with top shelf Ohlins suspension. I have proven this system over many years (traction control) and allot of my customers around the world run my programming in their TC units on 4 injector twin rotor cars.

It will make your thing sound like an old F1 car! and the drive out of corners is amazing! I leave my car now on 1.5bar boost and let the TC simply control the power rather than using staged boost control which is far slower and much less precise :hurray:

Highly recommend it especially for a track type person like yourself ;)

[RICE RACING]

A little off topic but I'm sure you will love this...........

So who has watched Hot Version Vol 107 yet? *you can youtube it*

Very interesting seeing all the tested weights, boost pressures, top speeds on back straight! and claimed power levels :shock:

Excellent spread of cars and configurations :wink: Nice typo of the RE Amemiya car running a 4.3 rear diff when it has a 4.7 in it lol, but otherwise nice production.

RE Amemiya car
193.064kmh
twins @ 1.00kg/cm 402ps
1145kg

Famspeed
189kmh
twins @ 1.3kg/cm 499ps *where did the 100ps go?*
1153kg

R-Magic drift car
200.93kmh
T04Z 1.4kg/cm 580ps (sequential dog box)
1126kg

Domar spec drift
190.375kmh
T88 1.35kg/cm 570ps (sequential dog box)
1133kg

To pick the most exciting cars, interesting to see dyno dreams don't match with reality, very cool to watch the 5 lap race and see the 400ps twins car keep right up to the 580ps car! (within 1 car length along whole back straight up to 200kmh lol)........ guess who won?

Here is a list of very well known cars and their top speeds on the back straight at this track...
2007 17th Annual Revspeed Super Battle at Tsukuba Circuit

***NOTE*** ITS FUNNY HOW ~600PS Nissan's (M speed, Best Motorsports, Garage Ito) that weigh much more are 20+kmh faster lol (and that is with larger frontal area, higher drag too)!!!! I do have ALL of these cars on video along with detailed specs of the all as well ;)

* 1st place- #13 M-Speed R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 55.23sec, Top Speed: 227.282 km/h)
* 2nd place- #1 Garage HRS SUN Auto Cyber Evo CT9A Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (Best Lap: 55.864sec, Top Speed: 220.678 km/h)
* 3rd place- #22 Pro-Staff R Magic FD3S Mazda RX-7 (Best Lap: 55.947sec, Top Speed: 217.742 km/h)
* 4th place- #12 Nagisa Auto R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 56.510sec, Top Speed: 227.082 km/h)
* 5th place- #16 Kurumakobou Decide R33 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 56.630sec, Top Speed: 233.615 km/h)
* 6th place- #14 Garage Kagotani R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 56.833sec, Top Speed: 227.416 km/h)
* 7th place- #31 Autobacs ASM Honda S2000 (Best Lap: 57.398sec, Top Speed: 188.055 km/h)
* 8th place- #18 Best Motor Sports R32 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 57.422sec, Top Speed: 220.994 km/h)
* 9th place- #15 Hosaka Tuning Factory R33 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 57.504sec, Top Speed: 224.346 km/h)
* 10th place- #17 Keiyo Jiko R32 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 57.658sec, Top Speed: N/A)
* 11th place- #3 Jun Automechanics CT9A Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (Best Lap: 57.824sec, Top Speed: 211.640 km/h)
* 12th place- #19 Auto Gallery Yokohama R32 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 58.081sec, Top Speed: 223.8
* 13th place- #21 Garage Ito R32 Nissan Skyline GT-R (Best Lap: 58.282sec, Top Speed: 216.650 km/h)
* 14th place- #5 Varis CP9N Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (Best Lap: 58.456sec, Top Speed: 211.102 km/h)
* 15th place- #4 Stillway CT9A Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (Best Lap: 58.484sec, Top Speed: 204.468 km/h)

[NoDOHC]

All this talk about crazy acceleration almost had me talked into a turbo, but I keep reminding myself that I like keeping my apex seals in the grooves. I don't know enough about turbo tuning to be anything but dangerous (to my engine).

Nice numbers, keep up the good work.

[RICE RACING]

All this talk about crazy acceleration almost had me talked into a turbo, but I keep reminding myself that I like keeping my apex seals in the grooves. I don't know enough about turbo tuning to be anything but dangerous (to my engine).

Nice numbers, keep up the good work.

Once you go turbo you NEVER go back to NA unless its in a go cart and has 3 or more rotors :rofl:

It's not that hard, but then again you need to have a good handle on what your doing like these boys in this thread from the given shop. A great example of how not to do it can be searched under BDC :o13:

[FDwarrior]

The japanese time attack circuit is insane. I think some of those garages over in japan spend tons of cash to be the fastest around tsukuba. Im not sure what dyno's are the most used in japan.

[RICE RACING]

The japanese time attack circuit is insane. I think some of those garages over in japan spend tons of cash to be the fastest around tsukuba. Im not sure what dyno's are the most used in japan.

Famspeed exclusively use dynapack (499ps) < is corrected to engine power using a 1.15TCF here is there link (use translator to read it).http://www.famspeed.co.jp/mnt/power/index.html

All the others use Bosch dyno's mostly that do coast down (to establish transmission/drive and tire losses) and thus they derive an engine power reading, as this is the std used in Japan when comparing penis size, sorry I mean engine power, they do not talk in rear wheel power at all.

Their 2011 set up is Peripheral Ported T51R running 1.48kg/cm boost and 607PS *you will find photo's of the housings etc, just need to search around and join the dots lol*

[GoopyPerformance]

Defined Autoworks..Highly recommended for all your Rotary performance mods.


Www.GoopyPerformance.com

[RICE RACING]

After a massive forum blitz .......... where is the updates on the worlds best GT35R 13B????????

How you run it yet with a VBOX? like to see some real world figures from this beast :icon_tup:

[rx71king]

reading a thread like this confirms that i am in the right place ...... thank for sharing.

[diabolical1]

spring's a few days old, it should be about that time. hopefully an update will follow shortly.

[just startn]

Real drag strips are not open up here yet...

[FDwarrior]

Real drag strips are not open up here yet...

Haha yep this is right. Don't worry folks we will be running the car down a strip soon. The main focus will be road racing, but like I said we will be going to the drag strip at some point.

[FDwarrior]

After a massive forum blitz .......... where is the updates on the worlds best GT35R 13B????????

How you run it yet with a VBOX? like to see some real world figures from this beast :icon_tup:

No vbox data. No one has one we know and they are $$$$. The 1/4 mile data will be cheaper.