17x9+20 with no stretch?

[89fc3s]

my VDI doesnt work emissions are intact. How do i narrow down the problem?

and i know 17x9 will fit just will it fit with the offset?

[RETed]

Wheel will fit...
It depends on what sized tire will go onto the wheel?


-Ted

[atsronnyats]

1. i guess the better question to ask is who has put 17x9's on an FC

2. did you have to modify any thing? pics?

3. im only curious bc lately Ive thought about getting some BBS 17" to put my vert center caps on if possibly any thoughts on that?

[gkarmadi]

17x9 + 28mm (255/40/17) on the rear without any modification on the rears fenders.
HKS coilovers with mazdatrix rear camber adjuster bar.

[josh18_2k]

they'll fit the front up to ~235's with some camber.
255's are doable with apulled fenders, but dont try it if your car is a beauty queen.

here's 17x9 +24 with 245/40/17, 1* of camber (you should be running ~2 or more if you actually enjoy turning):
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p297/josh18_2k/LS1%20FC/DSC02458.jpg

[89fc3s]

i am not wanting to stretch tires

[TitaniumTT]

17x9 rim can easily accomdate a 255 wide tire. A 275 will fit. more contact patch = more traction = more control. Period.

Furthermore, I already explained why your rims do not fit on your or any other stock bodied FC. This is fact. Compress your suspension and the outer lip will hit outside the fender, hence, they do not fit.

You want to do that to your car, fine, by all means. DO NOT post up that it will fit. It spreads misinformation like an STD on an island.

[RETed]

ok then, explain to me why stretching tires are dysfunctional with hard evidence.

1) More rubber = more traction = more cornering force
This is what the majority of people understand as "automotive performance."
If you can't understand this relation, you need to learn how to drive.

2) If you hit anything, more tire means less chances of damage to your rims.
Or is battle damaged wheels an "in" thing now?


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

I was asked to open this thread to discuss wheel/tire fitment as the title asks and the benefits/cons of tire fitment. There are alot of people here who know how to setup a suspension and it's always good to hear from them.

Name calling, bashing, flaming, slide or die drifting is the only way crap will not be tolerated.

Keep it on subject or the thread will be locked again.

-Your friendly and fair neighborhood Admin

[TitaniumTT]

So you're basically doing it just for looks?


-Ted

i drift for ... making the car look cool while its in motion

Should I just close the thread again?

:rofl:

[Pete_89T2]

Should I just close the thread again?

:rofl:

Please - this is starting to sound like that other forum!:rofl:

[Ender]

I'm going to run these 17x9's +20mm for GRIP and know damn well I'm gonna need wide front fenders.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/549/dscf5728.jpg

[infernosg]

I know all tires are different (even ones that are the "same") but based on my experience you'd need to consider front fenders that are at least 20mm wider than stock.

I currently ave 225/50R16's on 16x8 +32mm wheels with -1.5 degree of camber and I *just* barely clear the fenders. I've since slightly rolled (beat with rubber mallet + heat gun) the front fenders for extra clearance because I was rubbing on track days. I really want to step up to 17x9 +22mm wheels with at least 245/40R17 tires so that's an additional 22.7mm of fender I'd need not considering camber and differences in tire width.

[TitaniumTT]

So in other words....

NO THEY WILL NOT FIT A STOCK BODIED FC AND THE TIRES THAT YOU WOULD NEED TO BE RUN WON'T FIT THE RIM.

[TitaniumTT]

Regardless of how retarded the tires look Ant, the rims themselves will not clear the body when the suspension compresses. Thus, they don't really fit.

I remember Ian (BlueTII) posting pics of his fitment.... in fact... I'm going to go dig them up.... not in the link I have saved, not going to bother.... point of the pic was Ian took the springs off, mounted his tire on, and moved the suspension up and down and didn't have any contact.... THUS HIS WHEEL FUCKING FIT!

seriously? do you not see the pics? they fit.

Take the springs off, then completely compress the susepension and then post pics of your rim hitting the wheel wells and NOT CLEARING by 3/4". Then you can tell me they fit. Until then, they don't fit and honestly I'm getting a little tired of saying this... stop posting up that they will fit when they clearly don't.

Maybe I should go pull the stock XJ rims/tires out and bolt them onto my FC an post pics of them "fitting"

[iani1.1]

Take the springs off, then completely compress the susepension and then post pics of your rim hitting the wheel wells and NOT CLEARING by 3/4". Then you can tell me they fit. Until then, they don't fit and honestly I'm getting a little tired of saying this... stop posting up that they will fit when they clearly don't.

Maybe I should go pull the stock XJ rims/tires out and bolt them onto my FC an post pics of them "fitting"

what does taking off the suspension have to do with it? so you roll around with no suspension? no wonder none of your wheels fit. im sorry dude but i clearly have proof to support my claim.

[TitaniumTT]

:facepalm:

Yeah, that's how I roll... you can't get any more slammed than no suspension...

You just clearly don't understand the simplest of things relating to this subject, do you?

Here is what YOU need to do.

Jack your car up, remove one front and one rear strut/shock assembly.
Dissassemble and remove the spring
Assemble back onto the car
Bolt tire on
Cycle suspension up and down and take pics of where your tire or wheel hits the body

Until you do that... and this is the last time I'm going to say this.... STOP SAYING THAT THOSE WHEELS FIT.

[TehMonkay]

So what happens when you hit that one hard bump and your fender atches your tire tread?

Being a VW owner (not some gay ass roof rack shaved slammed stretch BS one) i've seen my fair share of what happens from other people.

[iani1.1]

i still dont get what youre trying to prove with removing the suspension. dude, the suspension doesnt travel that far unless you have cut springs or no springs for that matter. common sense, breh

[TitaniumTT]

I'm proving you wrong. Yes, the suspension does move that much. You're lacking the power and grip to move the suspension enough. Your wheels do not fit properly.

and don't call me breh

[iani1.1]

dude, no it doesnt. the springs just wont allow for your suspension to bottom out unless your trying to pull some duke of hazzard. that with stock suspension and what not.

[TitaniumTT]

Yes it does. Like I said, you're lacking the grip and power to flex the suspension enough to do so. You're next post in this thread better contain pics of your car with the wheel tucked up in the well and the rim hitting the body.q

[iani1.1]

i did mention it is a drift car a little bit ago right?

here
http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac97/rotaryian7/project D/58361_149379638418857_100000404665627_302445_54704 58_n.jpg

[TitaniumTT]

Thanks for proving my point. MY POINT

Go lower and what happens? THE RIM HITS! WOW!!!! Put a proper size tire on and what happens?? IT HITS!! SAY IT ISN'T SO!!

I don't care what you use it for, it's an FC, and someone wanting and looking for information on proper fitting wheels may come across this thread and be more than pissed off after buying rims that don't fit based on what you "think" fits by running retarded amounts of camber, wrong size tires, etc etc.

[TehMonkay]

Nah, most VW owners buy cheap coilovers and lower the car as much as possible and fit their wheels/tires like you.

By the way, on street tires at autocross i've managed to get my tread completely covered by the fender, no cut springs, stock suspension, what would happen in the case of what you posted? Rubbing, it would probably cause the car to handle erraticly, you'd eat up your tread fuck up the fenders and probably get kicked out.

Then again real racers don't stretch their tires, just fad sack riders and drift kiddies.

Also, if you remove the springs, youll still hit bump stops, and when it comes to the real world that's the real limiter of travel unless it's a track only car, then again you also dont really race at all either.

[josh18_2k]

I'm still certain they don't fit without a stretched tire. I've had 17x9 +24 up front before on my old N/A and needed good maount of pull for 245's. There's no way you could go another 4mm out and not need a pull, or a stretch, to fit.

The wheels themselves will clear things, but you won't get proper width tires on them without rubbing.

Right?

i think this is a real source of confusion/debate in the whole 'wheel fitment' thing. i think what people are really after is tire fitment, but most people dont seem to realize that. will a 17x9 +24 wheel fit up front? the true question here is "will the wheel contact my suspension." if not, the wheel fits. the next (seperate) question is "will XXX tire fit?" its really not the same question.

as you stated, 245's on a 24mm offset take some work to fit. doesnt matter how wide the wheel is, the tire clearance doesnt change. if you're stretching the 245 over a an 11" wheel, or ballooning it onto a 7, the tire/fender fitment is the same.

people seem to forget (or not realzie) that TIRE fitment is all about offset. wheel width really doesnt have anything to do with it. if dude wants to run a 255 up front, theres an answer for that. 215s? a different answer.

in this case, the OP asked about a wheel with no mention of a tire. so technically, Ian is not incorrect. if the question was about a tire size, then his post would have been irrelevant. ian posted a pic of a 17x9 +20 wheel on his car- it obviously doesnt contact his suspension, and if it pokes out too much for ssomeone's tastes, they can tell just by looking at it. theres really no reason for debate beyond that. it would be another story if someone is posting that a wheel fits without any sort of reference (i could easily run around telling people that a 17x10 +55 wheel fits an FC)

i think i might be rambling by this point (wtf am i doing online during thanksgiving anyway lol)

[TitaniumTT]

While I agree with most of that, my definition of fitment is, can it fit, fully cycle the suspension and not have it make contact? In the case of the 17x9 +20, no it won't. It will hit the arch in the rear. Therefore, no fit. Sure, you could run a stiff suspension, 205 tires and daily drive the thing and probably get away with it, but that doesn't make it right. Just like I won't say a 10.5" wide tire on stock XJ rims fits. Like I said, been driving for 2+ years but it doesn't fit. I'm also OCD, quite picky, a numbers guy and very literal.

And you're probably online for the same reason I was.... to get away from the madness. Now I'm sure it's different though, I'm online waiting for my shop to get up to temp... somewhere around 65* should be attained in the next 5 minutes :)

[josh18_2k]

my picture of the 285 was to prove that the wheel WONT hit the fender. no 17" tire has a sidewall short enough to allow the edge of the wheel to hit. the shortest tire he could possibly run is a 205/40/17, the sidewall of which is a mere 0.15" shorter than my 285 in the picture. notice that i have more clearance than that between the edge of the wheel and the fender. also note that corksport fender arches sit lower than stock. there is no way any wheel will ever hit a front fender on an FC with a tire mounted. that is fact.

the rear is a different story.

just had mai yams :) lol


btw heres an inside pic of the 285 fully compressed.
the body line you see on FC front fenders are just about equal with the frame rail. i can always tell when a slammed car is riding the frame. ive had plenty of those arguments... people who think their cars handle "on rails" whilst riding the frame.

ian only has about an inch of travel in his pic. probably enough for his uses, and even if he does hit the frame rail it wont affect him much.
fwiw, i set my ride height by spray painting the top insides of my fenders and setting it so it rubs slightly on slicks.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p297/josh18_2k/LS1%20FC/DSC02857.jpg

[TitaniumTT]

I've been talking soley rear and ONLY stock bodied ;) This is where the difference is. As I believe he has a different size on the front. Like I said, my 17x9+35 cleared the stock rear lips by a matter of mm's, there is no way there was 15mm there and you can even see in one of the pics the rim is just about to touch the body.

I like that idea on setting ride height as I don't have to worry about tires rubbing body work right now. With the 275 I plan on running next year... I might.

Just had another cup of coffee.... shop should be warm... time to take a few hole saws and jig saws to a perfectly good hood :eek:

[josh18_2k]

ohhhh yah, i've been talking solely about fronts, as was the OP and ian. ian has 17x9 +20 up front. his rears are 17x10 +something else, so thats a different story. he has corksport overfenders in the rear, they're just molded on so its really hard to tell in the pic he posted.
i dont think anyone was talking about rear fitment up to this point?

EDIT: ok he only has the corksport fenders in some of his pics. but regardless, rear camber plays a much bigger factor on fitment than anything else, so you really cant say whether or not any questionable wheel will fit without knowing the alignment.
i pulled my fenders to run 17x10/5 +27 with 285's at 1*, but with uncorrected, it most likely will tuck inside with just rolling the inner fender lip.

no idea what ian runs for rear camber. hes kinda gone now :-/

[TitaniumTT]

Ahhhhhhh, yeah, talking two different ends here. That'll make a big difference. I'm also one to err on the side of not contacting the body. She's not a track slut.

Tire/wheel fitment is such a touchy subject. Ignoring the appearance aspect of it, noone wants the be wrong. As far as rear camber, what are your thoughts? I've been told, and it seems to be pretty spot on, anything more than 1.5* really detracts from forward traction. One of these days when I get all the other stupid shit worked out with the FC I want to get some of the AWR individual camber and toe adjusters. Any expiernece with those?

[RETed]

And how was he any more offensive or harsh to you guys than you were to him? Especially now with you calling him a bitch?? You're really a big man Ted. I'm not into the FC world just yet, so I don't know everything that you know about FCs, and you do seem very knowledgeable. But I'll be honest, most of what I've seen out of you over the past few years just show you to be a huge prick, but maybe I've just had a hard time reading your personality over the forums. I will admit that Ian was being a tool in some cases too, but it's not like you and others weren't being tools to him too. I know Ian not just over the internet but in person and he's a good guy. I would imagine you guys are good guys in person too, but several in this thread and argument (including Ian) have shown themselves to be douchebags over the internet LOL. Not that you guys or Ian are like that on the internet/forums all the time, because I've seen otherwise, that's just how it seems in this case haha.

Sorry to rehash this, but I find this kinda funny...
(Most of you guys who know me well enough know why...)

I think you're an FD owner?
You don't know how much restaint it took to pound out those replies.
My old M.O. was to just flame away, but I've started to include some gist of a technical reply just to make things a little bit more palatable.
If that small tiff offends you...you should go find some of my old shit which I do not hold back...

Just remember, I only started to call him a "bitch" cause he brought up "dicks hard" and "pussy wet".
I dunno about you, but I have a hard time giving anyone who uses those terms so...loosely...any credit or respect, irregardless how he is in person.

As for the topic...
There's several points being missed here still.
1) Lip profile - not all wheels run the same lip profile. Remember, "rim width" is definied by (loosely) the width (inside) the wheel that is between tire bead to tire bead. This allows a great variation of lip profile that protrude after that. I've taken pics (evil forum) of a (17" x) 8" wide, +30 using a 6mm bolt shank for clearance. I really don't like running anything under 6mm of clearance for street use; no, I don't like running 10kg-mm+ springs on the street. This extrapolates to a 9", +18 for the same clearance. Add that 6mm of clearance, and you get your 9", +24.
Could this fit? Possibly.
Could this fit ALL wheels? I doubt it.
For a 9", +20, this will fit giving you about 4mm of clearance.
This is way too tight for ME.
Now, this is assuming NORMAL tire to wheel mountings.
Run hippari stretch, and you can get ultra close to the insides and not worry about the tire "sidewall" contacting anything.
9" can run a full 255 wide tire.
IMNSHO, running narrower than 255 on a 9.0" wide wheel is a waste of time - see below.
Can you run a 255 wide tire in front on an FC with stock front fenders - NO, unless your definition of a "fender pull" is over an inch!
Thus, IMNSHO, running a 9.0" wide wheel up front under stock fenders is a royal waste of time.

2) Going back to stabilizer bars and balance... The (full) effect of the stabilizer bars balance is due to load. Dori bitches don't induce full load on most stabilizer bars systems due to the nature of the driving. (Don't need to explain this to everyone, right?) Thus, trying to compare GRIP versus DRIFT performance when it comes to identical stabilizer bars set-up's is a royal waste of time.

That iani-guy-whatever already admited he's trying to drift an "underpowered" car.
Why burden an already down-on-power set-up by running bigger / heavier-that-necessary wheels?
I don't get it.
Running smaller / lighter wheels would gain you better unsprung weight and rotational mass performance, but no...gotta look pretty for the drift kiddies...
This is why it puzzles me that josh18_2k - who I thought was a real racer - was defending such a set-up and then defends his comments are purely a clearance issue?
Hey, you're running a V8-powered FC that warrants such big rubber - no argument here.
So you're saying that because you can run 285's, that we all should too?

(I think I had too much turkey...)


-Ted

[josh18_2k]

i dont really understand what you're getting at in regards to me.
all i was really trying to say previously is that a front 17x9 +20 does in fact "fit" (technically) meaning that the wheel will never contact anything solid, other than a curb. tire fitment is a different discussion.
i also just dont understand why people get so uppity about other people's cars. i choose to run a certain setup, and thats my business. i put my information out there so other people can glean from it. its pretty much irrelevant to the slammed/flush crowd, and you'll never see them commenting on it.
if someone wants to do wide+stretch, thats their business. if they have questions, i'll still help them out as best as i know how. their choice of wheel/tire doesnt affect my life in any way so im not going to get mad about it.

in the case of ian, he's obviously not trying to set his car to maximize lateral acceleration. he stated up front he just wants to look cool (completely subjective!), while running skinny tires. ok. we all know there are tons of other people floating around who have the same goals. they can look at ian's post, and his pictures, and see just how his setup fits. if thats what they're looking for, then ian just made a contribution.
its the same reason people do all kinds of crap to cars- body kits, tint, etc. nothing to do with performance, its asthetic.

the only time i have a problem with all that is when i see slammed/stretched people saying its good for handling. thats when you'll see me start to argue. IMHO, those are the real idiots, not the ian types. "its on rails bro." - yah, those are called bumpstops.


the ONLY purpose of the 285 thing was to reference the fact that it has the same sidewall height as the skinny 17" tires these guys are stretching on the front, and to show that its impossobible for a front wheel to contact the fender.
and i dont 285 front for street tires, thats overkill imo. thats my autox setup. streets are 255/275

[Ender]

One of these days when I get all the other stupid shit worked out with the FC I want to get some of the AWR individual camber and toe adjusters. Any expiernece with those?

Mazdatrix sells ones that have grease zerts. In retrospect I probably should have shelled out the extra money for those instead. Some people have had these break in the past, but if it's for race use, well yeah it's going to see heavy loads. I got the adjustable center link, too, to make sure I had enough adjustability to keep the camber where I wanted it (which is stock for now).

[josh18_2k]

Can you run a 255 wide tire in front on an FC with stock front fenders - NO, unless your definition of a "fender pull" is over an inch!
Thus, IMNSHO, running a 9.0" wide wheel up front under stock fenders is a royal waste of time

BLUE_TII and MaczPayne have both been running 255's, on 17x8.5 and 17x9 respectively, under stock front fenders for a while (over 2 yrs). not pulled, just folded the inner lip flat. as far as i know, both guys track their cars as well.

brian- i wouldnt bother with the toe links. MMR's spherical control arm bearings retain the OEM toe adjuster so there's really no need.
i also prefer MMR's individual camber adjusters as it incorporates a rod end. AWR/Mazdatric links have metal sleeves on both ends, and the control arm movement isnt completely uniaxial.

anything between 1-1.5* rear camber is fine for a street car. 1 is probably ideal. i run 1.5* with 315 v710s and get even tire temps.

[MaczPayne]

I didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to add some of my experiences. Use the information however you want, it's here for you.

255/40/17 on 17x9 +24
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/johnsonmac/Auto-x%2011-30-08/DSC01764-vi.jpg?t=1293087465
-You will need a coilover type suspension since OE style coils will interfere.
-If you have sloppy wheel bearings, the wheel will most likely rub on the coils.
-I was running -2deg F -1R on the street, with rolled fenders. The car was also my DD so tire wear was adversely affected (especially during my new motor's break-in)

I wanted to run a more DD friendly camber setting, so I ended up flaring the fronts and rears a little bit, it's not really noticeable.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs173.snc3/20054_669148563814_6310173_37264550_2529291_n.jpg

I have since moved to a different car, running a different set of wheels.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/johnsonmac/Red%2089%20GXL-%20%20Turbo%20II/IMG02876-20101117-0720.jpg?t=1293088428

17x9 +17, 255/40/17

The Mandeville BBK gives me a 3mm thinner rotor hat up front, so the wheel is essentially +20mm. To use 255's up front with tire friendly camber settings, I had to really flare out the fender - about an inch. I did an okay job - it could be done better but it suits my purposes for now.

The rears got the same roll and flare, and was considerably easier to do than the fronts.

The alignment I run on the street is very mild - -0.5deg F -1deg R

Autocross: -3deg F -1deg R, 1/16th toe out F, 0 rear, OE caster
Road course: Similar, but 0 toe F and R, and -2deg F (Really doesn't hold much weight since I auto-x more)

Pics:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/johnsonmac/AutoX%2012-11-10/Race5-1.jpg?t=1293088841
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/johnsonmac/AutoX%2012-11-10/CIMG2420.jpg?t=1293088867
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/johnsonmac/AutoX%2012-11-10/CIMG2376.jpg?t=1293088914

Hope this helps!

[RETed]

^^^
What tire brand and model?

*I* noticed that your wheels are pulled.
Fronts are easier than rears.
For you to pull the rears that much must've took a lot of time.


-Ted

[MaczPayne]

Tires are Nitto NT-05 (Love them!), and the wheels are MB Comps

You're right, the fronts are easier to do, but the metal may buckle if pulled too much.

I spent maybe a whole day rolling all corners, heat gun and all that - but I still had some flaking.

[RETed]

Merry Christmas! :D


-Ted

[vex]

Come on B, you're slacking and still slow.

[RETed]

I incite the BAN HAMMAR due to provoking a mod!


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

brian- i wouldnt bother with the toe links. MMR's spherical control arm bearings retain the OEM toe adjuster so there's really no need.
i also prefer MMR's individual camber adjusters as it incorporates a rod end. AWR/Mazdatric links have metal sleeves on both ends, and the control arm movement isnt completely uniaxial.

anything between 1-1.5* rear camber is fine for a street car. 1 is probably ideal. i run 1.5* with 315 v710s and get even tire temps.

Thanks Josh, I appreciate it. I'll have to take a peak at those. Something's a little messed up in the rear and I see about a 1/4* difference in rear camber. Although the rear is pretty well dialed in, just need to really dial in the front

Come on B, you're slacking and still slow.

And you're still gay for not trotting over to Bills!

I incite the BAN HAMMAR due to provoking a mod!


-Ted

Mod??? Please.... Admin foo!!!!!

[TitaniumTT]

Just to put an end to this - Josh and Johnson win this thread.

There is now a place in the drifting section where you guys can bash each other till your fingers fall off. Keep it out of tech threads.

Anyone else think this thread should be trimmed more?