Coolant additives tech article for discussion.

[Cp1]

CONCERNING ANTIFREEZE ADDITIVES: ROYAL PURPLE; PURPLE ICE vs RED LINE; WATER WETTER

ok guys ive been using red lines water wetter religiously for the last 5 years in my cars running a 30/70 glycol/de-ionized water mix and its worked very well. i only use Ford motorcraft coolant seeing as thats what mazda uses but does not sell here.

I go today to buy more water wetter and two stores no longer carry including napa. I was reccomended to try its closest albeit much more expensive competitor: Royal Purple; Purple ICE, i was asssured repeatedly it was basically the same stuff just different brand. ok i pick some up, but i also in the mean time find some more Red-line water wetter.

My chemist friend helps me devise some simple tests to compare (yes im that anal) and things dont look so good for the royal purple immediately when i cant find a tech sheet anywhere on their website, or anywhere else.

They both advertise the same benefits but i find a website*1* listing its composition as comprised of a GM Dex-cool and Ethylene Glycol mixture. really not looking good, especially considering its price.

Heres the break down of our tests:

Surface Tension:
Done by measuring the "dome" formed upon overfilling identical containers with the desired mix. our controls were 50/50 Water/glycol, and straight water.

the water wetter/straight water measured slightly lower than the water control thus proving its effects on the tension, while it did not seem to have any effect when mixed with water coolant.

The royal purple mixes in both mixes when compared with its controls had ZERO effect and were the same.

GOOD OLD FASHIONED SHAKE TEST for antifoam properties:
two identical containers each mixed with water/coolant/additive, water/additive and just straight additive.

The results were actually surprising, the water wetter in all mixtures formed bubbles but they quickly dissipated within a minute or so, the bubbles lasted the longest in the water/coolant/additive by a mere 25 seconds.

The royal purple did not fare near as well. the bubbles formed from the water/coolant/additive mix took nearly 40 or so minutes to dissipate while the bubbles formed from the straight additive as i sit here writing this after 3 hours since doing the test are as though i just shook the container... :rofl: it is still just near straight foam.

Then the simple though probably far from a real scientific test as i could perform which was the heat transfer test.

I took a pot of water (750ml) on the stove and brought the temp up to 90C and quickly poured it into room temp cast aluminum pan and timed how long it took to cool the water down to 30C. since i didnt want to be boiling coolant in the house i only did water/additive mixes.

I cant say by this point i was surprised by anything, i brought the 750ml mixes up to the same 90 degrees and the water wetter/water mix cooled 3.5 minutes faster than the purple ice/water mix and for those with a keen eye yes i made sure to return the pan to its room temp before repeating. this was as good of a test for heat dissipation as i could perform at home with what i had, a good thermometer and clean utensils.

All in all i dont think mainly because of the foaminess of the purple ice i will ever use it, seems silly to put something that promotes bubbling into your coolant.:confused:

-------------------------------------------

*1*Oh and heres a tech sheet for the Redline water wetter:
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/WaterWetter%20Tech%20Info.pdf

Nothing available for the Royal Purple; purple Ice except for this supposedly stating the composition:
http://www.globalspec.com/datasheets/4306/RoyalPurple/8553E0A9-E0F0-4488-B774-1E50EEC84DBC

Price i paid (though ive seen on the net for cheaper)

RP:PI = $19.99 for 16oz = $1.24 per ounce Bought at napa
RL:WW = $11.99 for 12oz = $1.00 per ounce bought at partsource

[Kentetsu]

Interesting. I was told by someone on the evil forum that these products eat coolant seals. Water Wetter was mentioned specifically. Any thoughts on that?





.

[Cp1]

Interesting. I was told by someone on the evil forum that these products eat coolant seals. Water Wetter was mentioned specifically. Any thoughts on that?

.

That would actually seem counter intuitive. all manufacturers coolant like GMs Dex-cool for example, is formulated specifically to lengthen the lifespan of their seals and other rubber components. however, all antifreeze if not changed periodically will turn acidic, and start to eat away at these things and even metal, and that is what i suspect is happening. The only real way to test this is to place a new seal in some solution and come back after a few months to see whats happened. My guess would be not much. In my experience seal corrosion is mainly because of an owners inattention to basic maintenance. i flush the coolant about once a year while some people dont believe you ever have to, they just keep topping it up when it seems low, which is a terrible practice.

[prrex4ever]

Great info, thanks. Food for thought.

[RETed]

Don't take this the wrong way (although you will probably anyways) - I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here.

I personally think your tests are borderline unusable...

As objective as you were trying to be, the test conditions are way off versus their real world application.
You're missing pressure in these tests, and heat exchange simulation is not quite applicable.
If you had used a heat exchanger, then the results would be more digestible.

I dunno if the tech has changed, but back in the day when all of this stuff first started coming out, the major additive was DETERGENT.
Detergents have the desirable properties of being a surfactant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant
To combat the "foaming" nature of detergents, an anti-foaming agent is added to combat the bubbles.
This was the basic formula for these cooling additives.

It's a reasonable assumption that Royal Purple's Purple Ice would be a bad choice due to the amount of bubbles it produced, but compared to what baseline?
If you added another test where you use off-the-shelf (dishwashing) detergent (and water) and tested how long the bubbles lasted...
I'd put money the Purple Ice would beat that detergent by a wide margin?
This is what I mean by baseline.

Side note, I dunno why you would claim the Ford coolant is the best.
I'd be suspicious of anyone recommending to put ANY Ford part into my cars.
When I was doing my research on the subject, Mercedes Benz type coolant came out on top.
Try do a search on Mercedezs Benz coolant?


-Ted

[vex]

Simple testing fixture could be had/built for minimal effort thereby reducing human error:

Pressurized system with a compressor and Schroeder valves. Add in a shaker table (or duct tape an old phone to an old radiator pipe), plumb in a heat exchanger and a butane burner, and you could simulate it a lot more accurately.

Contrary to Ted's thought, I think distilled water should be the base line. Another control would be what Ted suggested as a base line. Though all things being relative, the baseline should probably be 50/50 mix as that's generally what's in each and every car.

[Cp1]

Don't take this the wrong way (although you will probably anyways) - I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here.

I personally think your tests are borderline unusable...

As objective as you were trying to be, the test conditions are way off versus their real world application.
You're missing pressure in these tests, and heat exchange simulation is not quite applicable.
If you had used a heat exchanger, then the results would be more digestible.

I dunno if the tech has changed, but back in the day when all of this stuff first started coming out, the major additive was DETERGENT.
Detergents have the desirable properties of being a surfactant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant
To combat the "foaming" nature of detergents, an anti-foaming agent is added to combat the bubbles.
This was the basic formula for these cooling additives.

It's a reasonable assumption that Royal Purple's Purple Ice would be a bad choice due to the amount of bubbles it produced, but compared to what baseline?
If you added another test where you use off-the-shelf (dishwashing) detergent (and water) and tested how long the bubbles lasted...
I'd put money the Purple Ice would beat that detergent by a wide margin?
This is what I mean by baseline.

Side note, I dunno why you would claim the Ford coolant is the best.
I'd be suspicious of anyone recommending to put ANY Ford part into my cars.
When I was doing my research on the subject, Mercedes Benz type coolant came out on top.
Try do a search on Mercedezs Benz coolant?


-Ted

You make valid points and like i said they are probably the best tests that could be done at home with what i have available for a direct comparison. as for the bubble test i will say that the container with purple ice STILL has bubbles even this morning from yesterdays test lol.

I say use ford coolant because under the Ford/mazda partnership deal ford was the sole manufacturer of mazda consumables like coolant, so mazda/ford do indeed design their motors to use this coolant. and most coolants are incompatible with each other and can cause a multitude of adverse effects like "clouding," (which is a micro foaming) and premature acidity.

I dont doubt that there are some that claim mercedes coolant to be the best but i would like to know why they think that or what that opinion is based on... you read everyday how people prefer one product over another without any real basis of comparison, just read through a honda forum and youll swear vinyl stickers add power. or that they added some crap to their oil and 'seemed' to gain 20 horses :lol:

ive been assured by my research chemist friend that our method for measuring surface tension is as accurate a test as any especially since using lab equipment(containers and eyedrops)... by measuring the curve of either a meniscus or the dome formed by liquid in a container.

But yes you are ultimately right in saying the last two of these tests are not real world condition data, but they are simple and do show that in no way are these two products identical competitors and if they do ultimately accomplish the same advertised thing in the real world, they do it in very different ways.

I think distilled water should be the base line. It should be noted that in all tests i only used De-Ionized distilled water, sorry.

[RETed]

I dont doubt that there are some that claim mercedes coolant to be the best but i would like to know why they think that or what that opinion is based on...
FWIW:
http://www.thesaabsite.com/Coolantinfo.htm


ive been assured by my research chemist friend that our method for measuring surface tension is as accurate a test as any especially since using lab equipment(containers and eyedrops)... by measuring the curve of either a meniscus or the dome formed by liquid in a container.
I have no problems with this part of the test.
In fact, I had to do those sames tests in organic chem classes that I took eons ago...


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

That would actually seem counter intuitive. all manufacturers coolant like GMs Dex-cool for example, is formulated specifically to lengthen the lifespan of their seals and other rubber components. however, all antifreeze if not changed periodically will turn acidic, and start to eat away at these things and even metal, and that is what i suspect is happening. The only real way to test this is to place a new seal in some solution and come back after a few months to see whats happened. My guess would be not much. In my experience seal corrosion is mainly because of an owners inattention to basic maintenance. i flush the coolant about once a year while some people dont believe you ever have to, they just keep topping it up when it seems low, which is a terrible practice.

I would do this immediately as I have a friend that did it and the RedLine ate into the seals and destroyed them in a matter of hours.

However, You would not want to use new seals, you would want to use old used seals as they have been bombarded with hydrocarbons and assembly lube etc etc and would more accurately represent seals in the engine.

Side note, I dunno why you would claim the Ford coolant is the best.
I'd be suspicious of anyone recommending to put ANY Ford part into my cars.-Ted


:smilielol5:

[vex]

what are the coolant/fire seals even composed of? Rubber? Viton? What?

[TitaniumTT]

Compressed magic pixie dust

[Cp1]

coolant is a very corrosive substance (ethylene and propylene glycol to be exact) and as such are treated with corrosion inhibitors which can dissipate with oxidation and heat. that is why eliminating air or foam from the coolant system is extremely vital, as is replacing/flushing the coolant periodically.

As for the mercedes coolant i dont doubt that guys story, it sounds interesting but mazda TSB E00194 specifically recommends a Green Ethylene-Glycol formula and specifically forbids any other makeup including the propylene-glycol which can is usually dyed red-orange-yellow for identification. so erring on the side of caution i will continue to err with mazda and ford engineers.

And since Ford motorcraft is mazdas consumables manufacturer that is the factory coolant choice.

*also note that for any corrosion test the highest concentration of antifreeze to water should be 70/30. and also keep in mind the coolant seals are compressed slightly which will actually increase their ability to resist any corrosion just like a Paper type waterpump gasket... if exposed directly to liquid it will be destroyed in minutes however it is not uncommon to see them last years in use. just some thoughts in setting up a good test for this.

[TitaniumTT]

That would explain why seals placed directly in water wetter last a matter of minutes, some engines a year, others for a few years.

Fact still remains though that it's been proven to eat them, so why use it?

[Cp1]

That would explain why seals placed directly in water wetter last a matter of minutes, some engines a year, others for a few years.

Fact still remains though that it's been proven to eat them, so why use it?

This is also why you only should use De-Ionized water when mixing as using even distilled water will cause Galvanic Corrosion between dissimilar metals. in the rotary its worth noting this will happen between the irons and aluminum sets hence the additives in coolant...

The benefits of "Properly" mixed and maintained coolant and additives far out weigh the negative aspects, and even water wetter advises that it should only be used with a new coolant mixture after a fresh flush of the system, so that it can benefit from the anti-corrosion additives in newer coolant.


Ninja edit: also while many manufacturers recommend for liability sake a 50/50 mix it is only advisable to use the least amount of antifreeze required to defend from risk of freezing, a 5% mix is more than adequate to provide rust inhibition relief solely. most purpose built racecraft where engines are disassembled often, usually run pure water with a wetting additive as rusting or major corrosion isnt a factor

[rxspeed7]

I know it was mentioned that when the coolant becomes old and expires it becomes corrosive and can then cause electralysis within the metals, but the proper coolant ph is 8.5-10. Anything lower of course is acidic and bad. They do however make a coolant ph buffer if the coolant is not within the proper range.(pretty common even with new coolant to not be within range) This can be added to the cooling system to help raise the ph.

Zack.

[vex]

So I've been sitting on an unused internal coolant seal. I'm willing to cut it up for the prospect of science and the rotary community at large. Here's what I propose:

I get samples of various coolant mixtures and other fluids and submerge them for a period of time to see how the seal holds up.

I do not have a means of pressure or heat cycling them so I may have to remove that from the equation and only identify issues with fluids that can cause 'static' damage to the seals.

[cewrx7r1]

I remember when DEXCOOL first came out and was recommended for European aluminum engines. Soon afterwords many American manufactures started using it. Some paranoid people said it ruined their seals and engines soon after switching to it.

As we know, all sort of things can happen and then one draws the wrong conclusion without scientific testing.

Since "I" rebuilt my engine in 1999 to racing specs and dynamically balanced, it has used:
(1) 75% distilled water, 25% Dexcool, and 1 bottle of Water Wetter.
(2) Royal Purple 5-30 oil.

My engine has over 40,000 miles at above 350 whp.
Last year when I checked the compression, all faces were above 115psi. The engine still runs great and never had any coolant leaks or oil problems.

Maybe building an engine properly is more important?

[hades]

not that Rotary Performance is the gospel - but Chris Ott recommends using Redline Water Wetter here in TX to help combat the heat.